Discuss Romans 8 Page 8

New Covenant vs Old Covenant.

When comparing the two I believe the difference is in fruit barring.

This is something that can only be done by being connected to the genuine vine. John 15:1-5.

We can do nothing without Christ.

These verses and many others is tied to this "working of the Holyspirit."

Romans 6:5-10.

Romans 8:11.

This is the life giving spirit that we get once we truly believe.

This is baptism!

This is Christ in us, and we in him.

Jesus said that those who abide in Him will bear much fruit. That fruit is more than ministry results, it is also the evidence of a life lived in God.

IF WE'RE CONNECTED TO THE VINE WE WILL BARE FRUIT!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

This is what the natural man can not do and what the OLD COVENANT couldn't produce.

Galatians 5:17-18 says; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

BUT IF YE BE LED OF THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW"

Also see.

Matthew 7:18.

Salvation is inward. It's a new heart that CAUSES you to produce fruit.

It's not forced by command.

Christ put his life giving Holyspirit IN you, and that "Holyspirit in you" won't turn you from him.

It would be turning him from himself.

Again; This is Christ in you, and we in him.

Ephesians 4:30 is something the law and the Old covenant couldn't do. See; " Galatians 5:17-18"

Now what you do, it is he that works in you! Philippians 2:13.

By fruit we shall know them and by it, we can examine ourselves also.

We can use Galatians 5:19-26 as a guide.

Ephesians 4:1-16 is what every Christian should keep by his side.

God bless.

Page 2. David0921.

1 John 2:3-5: speaks of keeping Jesus' Commandments, not specifically the Ten Commandments (there is a clear difference between them). Psalm 119: the Laws, Precepts, Judgements, etc. given to Israel; not to those in Christ Jesus.

"How do I determine what is sin and what is not?" The Holy Spirit Who resides in my life instructs me in all things I need to know or be alerted to: of ALL of God's Laws, of where I slip up, of things just not quite right that can be regarded as sin ( John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 4:30). The Decalogue in & of itself falls far short of what God would require of me. In other words, I would rather be subservient & obedient to the Spirit than to the Letter of the Law. And when I fail Him, I am gently instructed & helped to learn & follow His Path.

"So when we say that the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments, are not for us today", I certainly don't mean the Truth contained therein, including all other Laws, whether Israel or Gentile-specific, but I refer to the purpose of the Decalogue, as a whole package of Laws for Israel that demanded obedience or punishment (including obedience to the 4th Commandment).

This type of Law has no bearing on those now IN CHRIST, who have been delivered from that Law of sin & death ( Romans 7:6; Romans 8:2). If there was no Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, then yes, we must grab onto & perform all the laws we can find in God's Word & hope for the best in the Judgement. But the believer's salvation is secure because it is all of God (His Great Plan), all of Jesus (His Great Sacrifice) and of His Spirit (His Great Ministry), Who will 'present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy'. My obedience & confidence rests only in the Person of the Godhead, enjoying the liberty of serving Him as He directs & not conforming to a set of rules that was prescribed to judgement & death.

Page 1.

Thank you GiGi - I appreciated your insight into those Scriptures that I find invaluable in any discussion as we've been having here.

I can't disagree with what you've shared, as I too, see that all of God's Laws are holy, special, & pertinent to knowing the Will of God & pleasing Him by following them. I also understand the passages you shared, viz Romans 7:22,23 & Romans 8:1-5, in a similar way as you, except to highlight these points:

a. In Romans chap 8: "the law of sin & death" (v2), I don't see it as simply as being freed from "the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God". This is certainly true that the witness of our new lives in Christ is evidence of no longer standing condemned before God. But Paul writing, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh", strongly suggests that "what the law could not do" by its weakness (inability) in its successful working in sinful flesh, refers directly to the Decalogue, which really is the Law of sin & death, or we can read it as 'the Law that reveals sin & ultimately leads to death'.

After we have been freed from the limitations & constraints of such a Law, the righteousness that is contained in that Law (v4), might yet be fulfilled in us. And how is this possible? Only by the Spirit's application & enabling us to perform it in our lives. On its own, the Law was totally incapable of doing this - it wasn't given for that purpose - just to show sin & its severity & permanence. The Israelite who truly loved God & desired to please Him would have been tormented by the magnitude of his sins, as the Law in simple terms showed him, & if it were not for those sacrifices proving that God still heard their cries & promised to cover their sins for that time, the Israelite would have found no relief at all. Onto Page 2.

Numbers 21:8.....God tells Moses that he wd have to make a bronze Serpent and put him on a pole and when someone was bitten they wd have to behold the Bronze Serpent....Is this not a picture of the Church that gets bit sometimes but if we behold the lamb of God that taketh away the Sin of the world.....Our snake bite is not fatal....Jesus said that as Moses lifted up a Serpent in the wilderness Even so must the son of man be lifted up..... John 3:14.....What Moses did in the wilderness with that bronze Serpent equates to what God did with the lamb of God.....We are still in the wilderness.....We have not got to the Promise land yet we are still in the wilderness of Sin and sometimes we get bit....But here is Romans 8:2.....The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made free from the law of snake bite and death......Sin and death.....Thats y Jesus is saying Even as Moses lifted up a serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up.....Jesus answers to the bronze Serpent.....But now under this New Covenant we behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.....What Moses did in the wilderness with that bronze serpent made Israel free FROM the law of SNAKE BITE AND DEATH.....But what Jesus did at Calvary by his blood is gonna make Humanity free from Sin and death...As John said behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....The manchild which is the H.G. is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and Judgement and Righteousness.....Which is the result of this New Covenant the blood of the lamb from Calvary.....Thats y Jeremiah saw all the world in travail and Child birth Jere 30:6 ...The Children are spirits an Israel of God....Thats y it is saying a time of Jacobs troubles impling an Israel of God...Simply b/c the H.G. is that Israel of God.....That Heavenly Jacob the 3 rd person.....Ya gotta realize that Jesus sows a greater seed then Abraham......A heavenly seed impling spirits...Born of the spirit is spirit.

Hello Chris,

This is an interesting thread that has taken many turns already. I just want to speak to what Paul refers to as the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2. In reading verses 1-5 I see that Paul is speaking of several things.

He is speaking of the freeing of us by the Holy Spirit from the condemnation that we acquire from sinning against the Holy Law of God. It does not say that we are freed from the Holy Law, but of the condemnation it pronounces upon us when we sin.

He speaks of the Holy Spirit in us causes us to walk according to the will of the Spirit and to not walk according to the sinful nature. (which he calls "the flesh"). So when we yield to the work of the Holy Spirit we are empowered to do what God wills, which would be doing what God has determined to be pure and moral (as the 10 commandments teach us what this is).

Paul goes on to say that the Holy Sprit teaches us the law that gives life (forgiveness, no condemnation, grace, eternal life, in and through Christ Jesus). This new life frees us from the law of sin and death. I understand the law of sin and death to be the aspect of God's holy judgment that always brings death to all who sin rather than speaking of the holy Law of God which shows us God's moral will.

Then in verse 3 he says that what the law could not do, (the holy commands of God could not make us righteous because we will break them whenever we sin, which brings the judgement of sin and death to all who sin). Our sinful nature makes it so that we cannot be perfectly righteous perfectly and always doing what is right according to God's will and law. The Law of God cannot make us righteous nor clear us of our sin, nor remove the condemnation for our sinning against it. It can only bring condemnation upon every person because none of us keep it wholly and perfectly all the time. We cannot do this. And the Law cannot save us.

see Part 2

Thank you for your responses to those Scriptures, Bro. Dan. I guess we will have to leave off interpreting those Scriptures, indeed all that speak of the Law, since we'll never come to agreement of which Law, its timing & purposes, that is being referred to.

But just back to Romans 8:1-4; what do you think Paul meant when he wrote that he was "made me free from the law of sin and death?' 'Free', I understand to mean, 'set at liberty, released'. The Greek, implies, 'set free from another's control'. Clearly, "the law of sin and death" applies to the Ten Commandments & its associated regulations & punishments. Paul wrote that he had been freed from its control & deathly grip (for that was its purpose), because he was now "in Christ Jesus" (v1). And he further wrote, that "the law of the Spirit of (this) life in Christ Jesus", was the very law that freed him, giving him a new law to abide by in his new life in Jesus. There was nothing wrong with the origin, veracity & great value of the old Law, it's just that it kept men (Israel) bound to it with no hope of release - only showing them the 'sinfulness of their sin' ( Romans 7:13).

And to those, like Paul, who by the help of the Spirit came to understand this Truth, found that there was actually a release from law's bondage which left men corrupt & hell-bound; & the release was found only in Christ Jesus who took that Law, perfectly fulfilling it in His Life right up to the Cross, & abrogating it forever. If it wasn't canceled, Christ's death would be worthless & His coming in vain. If we resort to that which only brought death, even to syncretize it with that which now gives life & liberty, what a horrible mess we have. I find it incredible why believers cannot find their joy & confidence in abiding by the Word & Ministry of the Spirit alone, rather finding a little more comfort in having a set of rules to follow. The Spirit deals with each one of us in a special way, which no set of rules ever could. Blessings.

Hi Chris,

Here are my comments on the scripture you presented.

Jeremiah 31:33: God will put his Laws in our heart and minds. These would be the same 10 Commandments/Laws as well as the additional emphasis on those commands that Jesus added along with the additional Love your nieghbor command. John 13:34

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Ecclesiastes 12:13: I think we agree for the most part that Gentiles have in fact received God's laws by by accepting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming heirs of Abraham, and not only the original 10 but also the additional more comprehensive laws as discussed and clarified by Christ.

Mark 2:27: Yes, Jesus was talking to the Jews/Pharisees about the Sabbath, but now that we are Heirs of Abraham these laws also apply to us. I know we differ on this, but this is my belief based on scripture. Jesus was also talking to the Jews about the Gospel of the Kingdom but then gave it to the rest of the world, so all that believe become the heirs of Abraham/Israel.

And Revelation chapter 22: I agree that this Chapter is Jesus speaking to John, but I believe that Jesus is speaking of all the Commandments including His, and His Fathers - not just Jesus commandments that you referred. Also, hoping we both agree that Jesus is God and so then when Jesus states commandments - He is referring to all Commandments. I also do agree it is His Spirit that promotes us to willfully follow His commandments.

Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I'll reiterate the same comments I made to Giannis above. I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind.

GBU

Hi Giannis,

I appreciate your feedback, and all of your input. Sorry for the late reply, The 2 posts that I deleted, (1) to you, and (1) to Chris was by accident. I could not see the 2 posts in the thread but could see them in my comments listed as waiting. It had been many hours so I thought I would copy those posts and then delete - and repost. In the process I lost the original posts, so I'm beginning to formulate new replies to repost. So I'm getting backed up a bit. I reposted to Chris, and now here for you. GiGi is also in queue.

For the most part I believe we are in agreement on most issues surrounding the ceremonial laws which have faded away, and God's 10 Commandments/moral laws are still in affect for Christians today. Jesus said as much, and even emphasized how intricate these laws are Matt 5:28 to open are eyes so that we can be very aware of our sin, and to repent, and refrain from our sin.

Regarding Romans 8:1-4 I agree that if we are Saved/Reborn Christians living our lives in conjunction with God's Holy Sprit that indeed is sufficient to receive salvation per the scripture. Very important: If, we are living by the Sprit we will be embracing God's/Jesus Commandments as the Spirit will certainly be directing us to do so, via God writing His laws in our body and mind per the New Covenant.

So in summary; I believe that a saved Christian will be following and applying God's Commandments in their lives via the conviction of God's Holy Spirit.

GBU

Thanks Bro. Dan for re-posting that previous comment. Looking at it more closely, these are my observances/responses.

Jeremiah 31:33: this is a new covenant with Israel that the LORD makes, where His Commandments are no longer on a tablet of stone but His Laws written upon their hearts. How does the LORD do this? Is it the same Ten Commandments now impressed deeply in their hearts or by the aid of the Spirit, enabling Israel to know ALL of His Commandments & have the power to obey them, which they didn't have before & with their eyes darkened? Romans 11:7-11.

Ecclesiastes 12:13: the Preacher writes about fearing God & keeping His Commandments. "Man" here must apply to Israel, since the Gentiles had never received any of God's Laws. But when the Gentiles did receive Christ (post Crucifixion/Ascension), learned of His Laws & subsequently received His Spirit, then yes, to fear God & keep His Commandments meant all of God's Commandments which included far more than the Ten: 'the Law of (from) the Spirit'; that 'which frees man from the Law of sin & death' (the Ten Commandments).

Mark 2:27: I see here that Jesus was talking with some Pharisees about the Sabbath. The Sabbath Day was given only to Israel, which has to be the 'man' spoken of. The Sabbath was never given to the Gentiles (Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians) who were living there at that time; at least we're not told whether they were required to observe the Sabbath Day when it came around.

And Revelation chapter 22: this whole chapter is about Jesus' Words with John. So 'his commandments' must refer to Jesus' Commandments & hence the right to the tree of life. Thus His Spirit gives us all we need to know & obey; it is by Christ's Blood & obedience to His Spirit that we 'gain entrance into the city', never by the Decalogue.

As well, I wrote a little to you on Romans 8:1-4, asking for your comment, if you so wish, as this passage is critical to understanding the Church's position with the Law. GBU

I read your latest response to mine but see that it has disappeared. But I would state that I have never put the Decalogue or any of the Commandments of God on an inferior level or lacking in Truth & with the full authority of God. That is never in question, even as Paul wrote in Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." And then as he continues in that chapter, that the Law, that was "good", was meant to show the exceeding sinfulness of his corrupt nature. He wouldn't have seen this in such light as a good devout Pharisee (i.e. such words could never come out his mouth); but now as one who has experienced re-birth, he can say 'that my eyes are opened to see what the purpose of that Law was'. Israel then, as now, cannot see what Paul saw; their obedience to the Laws before them (at least by the devout amongst them today), are what they expect to carry them through to blessing & eternity.

Therefore, I raised Romans 8:1-4 for your consideration. I was hoping in your comment to me, you would also refer to this very telling portion of Scripture that must apply to & affect every true believer, cutting deep into the heart. Again, Paul stated that the Law was limited in what it could achieve. Their words & one's diligent obedience to them could never give a person cleansing or the sure hope of eternal life - if it could, then Jesus should not have suffered & died. The Law failed miserably, as far as snatching the sinner from judgement. The Law was good & came in the Power of God but its purpose was limited in regards to salvation. Only through Jesus Christ & His Gift of the Holy Spirit could the "righteousness of the Law" be applied & fulfilled in the believer. Should then the believer go back & hang onto that Law, when the Law given by the Spirit, giving life in Christ Jesus, frees a sinner from a Law that only gave death? Sabbath-keeping can only be by choice - never by commandment & never to be imposed upon another.

Thanks Bro. Dan. We've been here before. So "why do so many Christians make such a big deal about following God's Commands." Can't answer for others, but I see that all of God's Commands (whether the Decalogue, or the myriad of other Laws & regulations), applied only to the Jews - for their instruction & performance. None of that applied to me as a Gentile. And none of those laws given to Israel are expected to be recognized by Gentiles. If Jesus didn't come & give His Life to redeem us to God, then as a Gentile hearing of such Laws that God required obedience, might place on me some conviction & responsibility to keep them so as to appease/please the God of Israel.

So the Decalogue, for example, was given to a specific people for a specific purpose. If I relied only on it to give me finite rules for obedience, then I would fail God. If the command said, "Thou shalt not kill" & I obeyed it & never murdered, then I could say that I had fully kept that commandment. And that is how Israel would have understood it. But Jesus then came on the scene & taught His disciples what 'murder' meant ( Matthew 5:21-24). So here we now have that connection between the old Law that only condemned & brought death ( Romans 7:4-6) & now the Deliverer, through His Sacrifice, Who has "delivered us from the lawthat we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".

If one believes that the Decalogue is still binding, that's their choice. But my belief is that those in Christ (of Jew & Gentile) are far beyond the Decalogue & are now indwelt & led by the Spirit ( Romans 8:1-4), that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us". My reference can never be to the Decalogue, only to the Holy Spirit who interprets the whole Law, pertaining to life & godly living, helping me to obey & giving power to live it - which the Old Law could never do. I ask, 'why should I go to a system that could never give life, or even syncretize it with the Law of the Spirit'?

S Spencer on the last week.

Part 2

2 To make an end of sins (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law). The verb in the Hebrew text translated as "put an end to" can mean "to seal up". The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Psalm 32:1-2 Matthew 1:21 John 1:29 Romans 8:3 1 Corinthians 15:3 Hebrews 10:8-11 1 John 3:5 Revelation 16:15.

Is there still sin today? Yes. Will there still be sin and death after Jesus's second coming? Yes. Even during the 1000 years, there will be sin and death until all is made new Rev. 21:1-4 but through Jesus, they are covered and sealed, Rev. 16:15

3 To make reconciliation for iniquity (Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement, iniquity is guilt, crookedness, perverseness, that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion, in the dark. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

The word reconcile means to bring back to a former state of harmony Jesus reconciled both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross and now through Jesus we both Jew and Gentile have access by one Spirit unto the Father no more strangers or foreigners but fellow citizens. Making reconciliation for iniquity concerns our involvement in the work of salvation.

4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting, no end, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving-kindness, in conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will, fair and balanced. Isaiah 61:10-11 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 1 Peter 2:24.

See Part 3

Hello, GiGi

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Thank you for your reply, I really enjoyed your post and hearing from you.



The subject is very profound evidently, however, as Paul Apostle did say, "our faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of GOD; we speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory- 1 Corinthians 2:5&7. Our Lord JESUS promised saying: Unto every one that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance: ...

I like to meditate deeply in the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD( John 1:1), and to deceipher the biblical enigmas. The psalmist said: I will bend my ear to a parable, with a lyre(harp) I will solve my riddle.

In my view, Genesis is a GOD's Plan of RESTORATION of all things( Acts 3:18-26), revealed to Moses around 2500 years after Adam, or after two and half GOD's Days working in His creation. By the way, around 4000 years after Adam(end of fourth Day), our GOD was still working:JESUS, the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD, said:My Father worketh hitherto, and I work- John 5:17KJV. What was the work of JESUS? To fulfill LITERALLY Gen.1:26-27:

26 And GOD said, Let US make man(MANY) in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing UPON the earth.---> By the way, compare with Revelation 11:15 to 18 Here, our Lord JESUS still was in the BOSOM of the Father- John 1:18The question, you know, is that our GOD "calleth those things which be not as though they were"- Romans 4:17. Only now has the sixth GOD's Day arrived, so, only from now on will Genesis 1:26-27 be fulfilled LITERALLY( Luke 20:35-36) AS A PROPHECY. Romans 8:18-25 explain better. In my understand, Adam is a human gender.

Sister GiGi:

I am going to scold you a little, but purely in LOVE.

You say things; but I don't think, you believe what you say is relevant for us in the present.

You said; and what you said is true, WE, as BELIEVERS, have been (a completed work) DELIVERED from SIN and DEATH; yet you don't believe what you say, if we HAVE BEEN DELIVERED, then it's not the future, BUT NOW.

You said Adam and Eve were sinless; if they were sinless, they would not have sinned.

Romans 8:29 For the creature WAS MADE (not created) subject to VANITY .... all creation from Adam WAS MADE subject to vanity, just a little enticement and they SIN ....

The RESURRECTION CREATED man in the image of God, as in Adam (shadow of Christ) all men DIE, and all men are made ALIVE by the Spirit of resurrection; sin and death were DESTROYED, on the cross; ONLY CHRIST arose, and we AS JOINT HEIRS, the image of Christ, predestinated from the foundations of the world.

I am the FIRST (of creation, the work of the cross) and I am the LAST of creation; creation was RAISED as joint HEIRS.

Ephesians 4:4 .... one body (Christ) .... one Spirit ....

Ephesians 4:6 ..... one God ....and Father of all (including Christ) ...... above ALL .... through ALL .... IN YOU ALL ...

.... this mystery .... Christ in you ..... hid from the ages

God bless you!

Paul Apostle in his deep spiritual wisdom, wrote in his epistle to the Church of Rome, saying: Romans 8:18 to 21KJV

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be REVEALED in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the MANIFESTATION of the sons of GOD. (When? In this current millennium.)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of GOD.

Ant to the Church of Corinthians, Paul wrote saying: 1 Corinthians 15:51 to 55KJV

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump( Revelation 11:15 to 18): for the Trumpet shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED. (How? Acording Luke 20:35-36KJV combined with Acts 3:19-21)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

May our Lrd GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

Amen

Yes Adam, these are a few important verses that I believe prove that a repentant sinner, seeking forgiveness & then being born again by God's Spirit, can be assured of salvation now & can never be lost. That the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer & perseveres with him/her to keep them saved & to warn & bring back those who fail in faith. Those who don't have assurance of salvation, probably are not familiar with the Scriptures, or have been taught that only perseverance & abiding by God's Commandments can they be saved, at least have any chance of getting approval at that final judgement day, or never been truly saved in the first place. Whereas, the one born again of God's Spirit will be given power to persevere & keep ALL of God's Commandments, & the avenue of repentance is there so that restitution & joy in a faithful God will be restored.

Ephesians 1:4,5 (God's choosing & predestining; His elect)

Ephesians 1:13,14 (Gift of the Holy Spirit; His Sealing & Guarantee till final redemption/reception of His child)

1 John 5:13 (we know that Eternal Life is our possession, not hoped for)

Romans 8:9,15,29,30,38,39 (nothing will separate us from God's Love - not from outside, nor from within, for we are His & will be led by His Spirit continually)

Nope, Frankie,

As long as we live in this mortal life we will have the sinful nature in us even though, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, too. And the Holy Spirit wars against the sinful nature all of our mortal lives, increasingly winning the victory over our sinfulness as He sanctifies us bit by bit, from glory to glory ( 2Cor. 3:17-18; Romans 7:13-25 as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit to put to death the works of the sinful nature ( Romans 8:12-13).

It will be only in the life to come when we have put of mortality and the corrupt sinful nature due to the resurrection of our bodies to immortality and in corruptibility will we be freed from the death sentence brought on us by the sin of Adam and our own sin and our sinful nature died when we died physically, when we will enter into the eternal state perfect, glorified, and completely separated from sin and any sinful inclination forever. Hallelujah!

In this life we are to fight the good fight of faith in what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and through His resurrection. It is in this life that we are to fight against our sinful nature by walking according to the Holy Spirit who is at work empowering us to obey God and to will and do the will of God. We will never come to a point of perfection in this life because the sinful nature continues in us until our last breath. But we can grow and mature in holiness as we surrender to the lead of the Holy Spirit who teaches us through the Scriptures as to how we are to live in each moment.

Brother David0921:

All the saints (elders) in the old testament died a physical death; because Christ, the promised SEED had not yet COME to give ALL immortal life by his resurrection.

Ezekiel 18:4 .... the SOUL that sinneth it shall DIE .....the soul goes to the grave .....

The promise in both the Old and New Testament has always been the promise of eternal live, destroying the enemy of man, DEATH.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (the saints in the Old testament), having obtained a good report through faith (believing in the coming messiah to deliver them from death), RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE.

Hebrews 11:40 For God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (resurrected with Christ, Christ ONLY is perfect and hath immortality dwelling in the light .... 1 Timothy 6:16)

Matthew 27:52-53

All creation was given immortality at the same time: when Christ was resurrected; Christ only was resurrected, creating a NEW CREATION.

Revelation 21:5 ... Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW ....

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in CHRIST (Christ ONLY was resurrected), he is a NEW creature: old things have passed away, Behold, all things have become NEW.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (God foreknew all creation), he did also PREDESTINATE (by Christ resurrection) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN (Christ ONLY arose) of many brethren (CHRISTians).

God bless YOU!

I read the question? about our meeting with Jesus outside the City. What I find feasible is where the mention of the Jews which went to Jesus, left the city for Him outside. I find this is referring to our Salvation is by leaving the "Law" which was in effect in the time before Jesus resurrected to defeat Death. But, once He overcame Death by fulfilling the Law, as Paul has said before, The Law was written for man, by man. so it is not effective upon us. Now we have the New Laws which Jesus presented.

Romans 8:2chapter context similar meaning copy save

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 4:15chapter context similar meaning copy save

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Hi James.

I would like to add to what has been shared by Jema and Richard.

Here is a scripture that may adress your concerns on knowing what or whether you should ask for particular things.

Romans 8:26-27.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Commit yourself to the Lord and he will line your heart up with his will.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

Hi David0921,

Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.

Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.

I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.

God bless,

RLW

The world does not understand that we are now under a new Covenant....That Jesus gave us at Calvary by his blood ... Romans 8:2.....The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death....Thats y Jesus was saying if i be lifted up i will draw ALL men unto me.... Jeremiah 31 :34.....I will make a new covenant not according to the old covenant....I will KNOW them All from the least to the greatest.....This KNOW them all is an intimacy that results in Child birth....for every body....Thats y he has to know us ....The Child is the H.G. Thats y Isaiah saw this KNOWLEDGE covering the earth as the waters covering the seas....Its ALL INCLUSIVE....I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and Child birth... Jeremiah 30:6....And I will stain all my raiment (with his blood ).....There is no fuller on earth that can whiten us like his blood....As we are his raiment.. i was in need of clothin and you clothe me.... Romans 8 :2 for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death....Thats y there in no more condemnation to them in Christ Jesus....Tho your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow.....Even in the O.T. When i see the blood i will pass over you....And it was all inclusive.....No matter who it was or what they had done.....When i see the blood i will pass over you.....Thus how much greater is this New Covenant by the blood of Jesus....Thus this book that Jesus wrote with his own blood the book of life....That results in a living being born in us....Which is the gift of the H.G. that Child of Promise....A living being the gift of God....Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil CHILD you will in no wise enter there in....k gbu

David921

AMEN Brother David 921:

As God shines light into darkness we are always repenting of the beliefs of the flesh and growing in the grace of God.

I believe as you keep studying and God keeps teaching you, you will keep growing in truth.

I believe you will realize that death of unbelievers is not ETERNAL; but for a specified time, he presently is gathering the priest ONLY; into the kingdom of God, then he will resurrect ALL flesh that has died in unbelief back to their flesh and blood bodies, they will be judged by Christ and his priest and brought to TRUTH, that is the second death describe in Revelation.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God.

They died in unbelief and are wanting in the grave, for the Sons of God to be gather to judge the world.

Romans 8:21 For the creature itself ALSO (second resurrection) shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the GLORIOUS liberty of the children of God (through judgement).

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be save, YET as by FIRE (judgement).

Isaiah 26:9 ...when thy JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants SHALL LEARN righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When God has put all thing under Christ, GOD will be ALL in ALL.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth ALL in ALL.

God bless you.

Revelation 17:15 The waters (seas) which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (this is all men, all creation).

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven, and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth (old covenant) were passed away; and there was no more SEA (whores, peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues)

All men DIED (were destroyed) on the cross with Christ, the Old Law of sin and death was crucified on the cross and the New Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus was RESURRECTED.

Revelation is the REVEALING of Jesus Christ.

Only one BODY arose at the RESURRECTION, you are joint heirs of Christ resurrection. Christ ONLY hath immortality.

1 Timothy 6:19 Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in the LIGHT (presence of God) ...

1 Corinthians 15:54 .... this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ......

Romans 8:29 Whom he did foreknow (he foreknew ALL creation) he did also PREDESTINATE (by his resurrection) to be conformed to the image of Christ (being raised together as ONE) ...

God bless you

Heaven Part 2

In my last post; I talked about Peter. He was revealed who Christ was which could only have come from the Father ( Matt. 16:17).

The HOLINESS of God is talked about frequently; perhaps easiest remembered in Revelation 4:8-11 (also found in Isaiah 6:3).

When the Bible describes judgment; and hell viewed on earth such as in Isaiah 66 there is no appreciation of the wicked for His Holiness or any other attributes. Our life as believers is hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and the verse also talks about how we must be "crucified with Christ". Those who believe have truly "passed from death to life" ( John 5:24 with further insights in 1 John as well). So that is the difference; we have either the eternal state of our spiritual condition to be in our fallen sin which is totally blind to His glory and only focused on self; or we are new creations which are now able to glorify God in heaven (and we start now by being seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Therefore we begin now; to rule and reign with Him in a sense-it is a done deal as Romans 8:30; and Ephesians 1:13 states.

Isaiah 53:11 states that He will see the travail of His soul and be satisfied; quoting a verse from an entire CHAPTER on Christ which is the famous chapter Jews like to ignore because of clear Messianic descriptions matching that of Christ. His satisfaction therefore will be in ruling and reigning WITH us; with the sons of glory (sort of combining Hebrews 2:10 with the concept of Romans 8:17.) He did it to please the Father first and foremost; but also of course has been given all authority on heaven and earth. ( Matt. 28:18). It is strange to conceive ourselves in a similar way; but nonetheless being part of the firstfruits we also suffer for a time then are glorified and rewarded ( 1 Peter 5:10).

Obviously; as we look to the concept of varying amounts of rewards for either the wicked (punishment) we have the same idea in regard to the saved. ( 1 Cor. 3:15). more in part3

Pg 1

Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).

When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').

Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.

Israel was sola scriptura,written word only....They knew the Torah by heart....But Jesus asked them one day which of the Prophets has NOT your fathers stoned.....But Jesus refers to them as you are of your father the Devil....The written word answers to the lesser light but the living word which is spirit and life answers to the greater light.

Thats y Jesus is saying are there not 12 hrs in a day and 12 hrs in a night...But if a man walk in the night... the written word only no spirit or life he is gonna stumble....But if he walks in the light the living word the H.G. That new covenant at calvary he will not stumble...Its only Jesus that is the light of the world....There are zillions of bibles in this world but this world is in deep darkness....

I love the bible but its just a love letter from a far away lover....But my bridegroom is Jesus the living word....We will be married to Spirit and life...Jesus/God ....Not paper and ink...God is much greater then a bible....I probable have 20 bibles in my house all kjv's but my bridegoom is Spirit and life the H.G. The living word....That Child of Promise...If salvation cd have come by the written word the bible then the living Word shed his blood in vain and the Cross was just foolishness....But Salvation is only the result of his blood at Calvary that New Covenant....NOT BY THE LETTER A KILLER THAT OLD COVENANT....The soul that sinneth shall surely die....But under this new covenant the blood at calvary....when he had taken the cup he said this is the N.C. In my blood drink ye all of it....Thus this New Covenant the law of life has made us free from the law of sin and death.. Romans 8:2.....We still get bit sometimes as we are still in the wilderness of sin but our snake bite is not fatal if we behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world....ty Jesus....As Moses lifted up a serpent in the wilderness even so must the SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP....The living word. that had to die for us...

The Resurrection and Rapture of ALL True Believers (Jews and Gentiles alike that God will have saved throughout history) is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the one and only one Rapture spoken of in the Bible. And it will be on the Last Day ( John 6:39,40,44,54), which will occur IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. We are currently living in the period of the Great Tribulation. The Resurrection and Rapture are simultaneous events and will initiate Judgement Day when God will execute His Final Judgement upon all those that have not become saved, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and a New Earth where in ALL True Believers will live and reign with Christ eternally.

There is no future salvation program for Israel as a Nation. And there is no Future Kingdom that Christ will establish on this sin-cursed earth. The Israel that God is concerned about is the "Israel Above" made up of all True Believers (a remnant from every nation) that God will have saved throughout history and will be joint-heirs with Christ in His Eternal Kingdom ( Romans 8:17, Hebrews 11).

Jimbob i will gladly show you a scripture that Proves the Saints are Spirits....Which are the Children of PROMISE THE H.G. Spirits.... Romans 9:8....The Children of the flesh are not the Children of God but the Children of PROMISE are counted for that good seed....The Flesh can only be a joint heir but the real heir is the H.G. THE CHILD OF PROMISE....Not Flesh and blood folks but ..the H.G....As Flesh and blood are not the Children of God thus cannot be ....As its only the H.G. That are the children of PROMISE.....And Sarah shall have a son....Now we are bornagain and have a son which is the H.G. that Child of Promise....and the SAINTS OF GOD ARE SPIRITS....But we are just a joint heir with the H.G. Romans 8:17 kjv....The elect lady which is the Church is the joint heir simply b/c she is the bride....2 John

Jimbob throw that concordence away....Its the H.G. that is the real Saint...We are just a joint heir with the H.G as the gift of God is the H.G. the only real Saint...And elect not man as Paul said in my flesh dwells no good thing....We are not saints but we can be a joint heir with a Saint which is the GIFT OF GOD THE H.G...If we are bornagain ....And this Saint has to be born in us....Thats y Jesus is saying that which is born of the spirit is spirit the H.G....We be just a joint heir if we are the bride....I know that the bible refers to many as Saints but it was b/c they had the gift of the H.G.....The flesh is just a joint heir with Christ the H.G.... Romans 8:17....We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. ( the gift of the H.G.)....Let the anointing teach you which is the H.G. the gift of God....You need no man teach you the anointing you have received of him the H.G. will teach you all things... 1 john 2:27....And he is our only Saint and gift of God....At the marriage supper of the lamb we will all be made 1 with the H.G....The flesh and the spirit will be made 1...That was his prayer in john 17:21 That we might all be made 1...