I agree with S Spencer and Noel, for those of us who have heard of Jesus and are called and have accepted Jesus as our savior the answer would be no.
I would like to give my understanding; God is a loving God Zephaniah 3:17 God will help and strengthen us Isaiah 41:10 God is just and upright Deuteronomy 32:4 and God is love and merciful Ephesians 2:4.
There are millions of people who lived and died before Jesus first came, and millions who have lived and died since who have never heard who Jesus is and what He offers. What happens to them? Everyone who is alive today and all who have lived in the past has the knowledge of good and evil thanks to the first Adam.
The white throne judgment many teach is only for the lost and unrighteous, my understanding is different. In Revelation 20:11-15 all the rest of the dead is judged, small and great and the books were open, and they were judged from the things written in the books, according to their works. In verse 15 it says this, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". Along with other scriptures, my understanding is there were some names in the book of life.
God only knows, some scripture gives a clue, People under the law being judged by the law and those who do by nature the things contained in the law not under the law (judged from the things written in the books) Romans 2:12-15, and if the white throne judgment is for lost only, how do we understand these verses, Daniel 12:2Matthew 25:32-46John 5:28-29Acts 24:14-15.
What I think is being missed in Galatians 3:29. Is that it actually says the opposite of the way you take it.
It says "you are Abraham's seed, and heirs, ""ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE"". Not law!! and not nationality.
The Promise spoken of here, "the covenant of God in Christ" was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Galatians 3:17. and before Israel was a nation.
So Galatians. 3:29. Is not saying you are Israelites it's saying you are children of Promise as we see in Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
I think the confusion is when often you call members of the church Israelites citing Galatians 3:29. and
Romans 2:29.
But you must consider
Galatians 3:28. "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."
So when you revisit Romans 9 and take on Romans 9:6-8. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
This is not making a distinction between Ishmael and Issac.
It's a distinction between
1) National Israel "The broken off branch who were blinded and who you are attempting to be grafted into " and 2) Messianic Israel who's joint members of the Church and children of the promise.
Have you noticed they all weren't broken off?
Romans 11:17. AND "IF SOME" OF THE BRANCHES BE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; BUT THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded
Thank you for your response. You made a long 3 part response, with great scripture! But your additional scripture does not change or weaken the scripture that I presented.
The main topic was the 10 Commandments, and secondary topic was the analogy of the Gentiles (wild olive tree) being grafted into the Israelites (cultivated olive tree).
I try to remain open minded and adjust as the Spirit may move me. I believe the scripture speaks for itself on these two topics. The chapter Romans 11 is speaks specifically about the Gentiles being grafted into this cultivated olive tree, and becoming Israelites Galatians 3:29. We become Abrahams seed! Paul states this fact again in Romans 2:29 we become Jews inwardly.
You put forth your argument against the Gentiles becoming Israelites and include scripture found in other areas directed at the 3 different/separate groups. The Church, the Gentiles, and Israelites. I agree they have been and CAN continue to be separate. But, the analogy that Paul uses regarding the grafting of the two olives threes - shows that Christ changed this; by keeping the original tree intact, not making a new tree. (You suggested different - we disagree) Jesus Christ is the tree root of the original tree, and the original branches are the Israelites. Paul is stating in scripture that Jesus removes the defective branches (unbelieving Jews), keeping the branches of the believing Jews intact, and then grafting in the believing Gentiles into the tree. In essence, bringing the believing Jews, and believing Gentiles, into ONE BODY - the CHURCH. I hope now, this makes sense to you.
Next, God originally gave the 10 Commandments to the Israelites. Now that we believers have accepted Jesus Christ, and have been adopted into the Church (Olive Tree) we are partakers of God's salvation, along with His Commands - we are treated the same now as the Israelites. No better - no worse!
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
There is a lot here in this portion of scripture, for one you will see there is two groups here, Us/The Church and Israel.
Take notice of what we are being grafted into! Is it Israel? No, Israel is a branch broken off because of unbelief.
You see the concept in John and Mathews. I am the vine true/genuine vine in John 15:1-12. and Mathews 7:13-23. opposed to Israel in Jeremiah 2:21.
Notice Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Again, salvation wasn't to come by the law where the Gentiles were foreigners, the law was to show the world they needed a savior that's what God promised Abraham.
Genesis 22:18.
SO, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW?
Galatians 3:18-29.
This puts the verse you gave, " Galatians 3:29." in its proper perspective.
More References:
Romans 7:4-7.
Romans 7:8-13.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
You mentioned Romans 2:29. Let's look at it.
You should take it from Romans 2:11-29. to put it in its context.
Romans 2:11-16.
Notice Paul says, "FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Even before the law was given, we had light in the world that bared witness of right and wrong! (The law put a death sentence on us. Romans 7:8-10.)
Continuing.
Romans 2:17-24.
Context: vs 17. "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,"
This portion of scripture seems to label you as a hypocrite and blasphemer when you put your trust in being able to keep the law.
"Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed." End quote.
your reference scriptures are in Galatians 3:29. and Romans 2:29.
Let's deal with the grafting in first.
You would have to go to Romans 10 to put it into perspective.
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Romans 10:1-4.
NOTE:
Christ is the goal! the Law was given to bring Man to Christ. He said, "I didn't come to patch up an old garment, I came to give you a new garment." (The robe of his righteousness)
Continuing-
Look here in Romans 11:1-9.
Notice verses 5-7.
(Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded)
verses 8-9.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
I'm replying to you here in a new thread as the other thread was getting quite long.
We are in agreement that it is the Holy Spirit in us that makes it possible for us to live according to God's Commandments. This wonderful Spirit makes the impossible - possible! Amen.
You continue to state that what was spoken to the Israelites are not applicable to us/Gentiles. The scriptures disagree. Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed.
Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Paul reaffirms that the Gentiles are now Jews inwardly.
Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Per the bible scripture the children of Israel (which Gentiles are after adoption) shall keep God's Commandments including observing the Sabbath throughout their generation for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever.
Yes, we who are in Christ, are now Jews inwardly, and will want to keep all of God's Commandments, and again, we do so via God's Holy Spirit, not of our own accord. Amen.
Lord please help Chuey. Thank you for your witness that went forth in the court and jail through Daniel.
I pray that your goodness would lead them and many more to repentance.
I pray that you would set the feet of these beloved young men on a different path that leads to the foot of the cross. And I pray for their protection while incarcerated. Please keep your hand upon them.
Save them both and use them for your glory! Bring them forth as "treasures" out of darkness.
Please cover Daniel as his testimony goes forth in such a dangerous place. In Jesus mighty name I pray Amen
Ok , thanks , I get it now . As we know from Acts Ch 10 especially V 15 and 34+35 it's not for us to call anyone common or "unclean" if you like , but I get what you mean . Thanks again .
The Jews viewed everyone who was not a Jew as a Gentile, which is often interpreted to mean "common" or "unclean" and not fit to touch not interact with.
That is all I meant. When speaking of the difference between Jew and Gentile, I was referring to how a Gentile is viewed by Jews in ancient times.
No one was saved before Jesus, Paul Talks about the gentiles in Romans how they were not of the circumcision but do those things of it. Plus the Jews had no clue Jesus would die on the cross they thought Jesus would set up a world government that would defeat all other kingdoms. One thing, death on this side is not final the second death is, you can still be saved after you die but during the wrath of God that's its whole point and how every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess, we are saved from the wrath of God to be made to repent. You can believe and still not have eternal life. Matt&:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
With respect and affection . I believe that I was a bit neglectful when I at first replied to this question and that I should have backed up my answer with some scripture references . I believe that these scriptures show that there is a difference between people who r saved and who r not , also that God Himself puts a difference between them and that He expects the saved not to b as the rest of humanity . I could give very very many references but I hope these few will b helpful to u . James Ch 2 V 23 ,Gen Ch 21 V 1-12 , Levi Ch 15 V 31 , Ex Ch 15 V 26 , Ex Ch 7 V 5 , Ex Ch 8 V 22+23 , Ex Ch 9 V 3-6 , Ex Ch 9 V 19-21 , Deut Ch 25 V 5-10 , Deut Ch 28 , Josh Ch 1 V 18 , 2nd Kings Ch 17 , Nehemiah Ch 9 , Psalm 145 V 17-20 , Psalm 149 , Luke Ch 13 V 1-5 + V 23-29 , all of Jude , Rev Ch 9 V 15-21 , Rev Ch 11 V 18 , Rev Ch 21 V 7+8 , Rev Ch 22 11+14+15 and finally Romans Ch 9 . I'm sorry I wasn't clearer with my first answer , I'm new at this so I hope u will forgive me and cut me a bit of slack . Thanks .
I understand your point of view about posts and responses.
Yet, keep in mind that this is a discussion forum, therefore there is nothing wrong with someone responding to posts.
Oftentimes responses help clarify ideas, give additional information, and offer a different viewpoint, and bring correction to what one may think is misinformation.
Even if you do not read or respond back to a response to your post, some of us will still respond for the sake of ALL who read through the posts on this discussion forum. So this is the reason I have responded back to you, but I certainly do not want to bother you.
The gentiles worshiped Roman Empire Gods. The Roman Empire was primarily a polytheistic civilization, which meant that people recognized and worshiped multiple gods and goddesses. The main god and goddesses in Roman culture were Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva
I hope u don't mind but I don't really wish to get into discussions with any other posters . I have seen on this site how things can degenerate quite quickly so I hope to b able to keep myself to myself . I like to come on , read through the questions and top posts and if I feel I can answer anything , I do . I don't mind what u or anyone thinks of my answers and I'm not interested to know . U may comment on my answers all u wish , I really don't mind , I would appreciate it if u didn't address your comments to me as I don't want to b drawn into lengthy discussions and I don't usually read anyone elses " replies " . I hope I haven't offended u as that's not my intention at all , I like to b honest so I've told u how I feel . Thanks to u and everyone else reading this , God bless u all .
Romans 5:12-19. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
My nderstanding is that the work of Christ on the cross. Stretches. Forward to the end of time and backwards to creation, not just for the people of His days on earth. So, I believe "Gentiles" prior to Christ are saved by His work and grace including Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem, Japheth, and man of their descendants who live before there were Israelites, and even between Abraham and Jesus' time. It is up to God to judge all of this who lived from creation to the end of time, no us. He alone knows the hearts of all people and is the only righteous Judge
Thank you brother S. Spencer for that excellent article by W. Jackson. It clearly shows God's Love & Concern for all people, even making every provision for those appointed to receive His Grace, to then receive His Gospel.
I remember hearing many, many years ago of missionaries going out to a people groups, both distant & isolated from any society - they had never seen any other faces apart from their own tribe & maybe a warring tribe. Though many of God's servants who go out to such unknown places are rarely received well & may soon lose their lives as being intruders or bringing forth 'another god'.
But we did hear of a couple of instances when those particular tribes, when they saw these 'white men', believing them to be gods, heard the Gospel & received it with joy & thanksgiving. No doubt great efforts to communicate were made prior to sharing Christ. Apparently, God had been preparing their hearts for this time (as He prepared His servants to be challenged to go out to the tribes), & these tribes had declared that for a very long time, they sensed that they were doing evil & had no knowledge or method of getting forgiveness & help, and as well, that they believed that someone would come one day to guide them. One could only envisage the joy on both the hearts of the hearers & the proclaimers, & the wonderful change wrought in each heart there with the assurance of being accepted by the Lord. These tribal folk knew absolutely nothing about God or the Gospel, but when hearing the Message, everything fell into place & they glorified the God of all flesh.
It's in the heart of every person to yearn for such Truth & help to live according to righteous standards. But many have turned to false gods & self-flagellation, or tried to deaden their evil consciences by good works or filling their lives with substitutes, so that even the liberating healing power of the Gospel becomes a Message for derision & hatred. Man will stand without excuse in that Day.
I don't believe that gentiles were saved before Christ accomplished God's plan of salvation by going to the cross . Before Christ gentiles could convert to Judaism . There is only one way to God now and that is through Christ . If u r not in Christ u r dead in your sins .
(3) Gentiles were not required, but had the privilege of, joining the Hebrew family via the proselytization process (cf. Acts 2:10; 13:16). Additionally, there were many instructions in Moses' law designed to benefit the "strangers" (Gentiles) who came among Israelite people ( Leviticus 19:33ff).
(4) The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh ( Jonah 3:1). Archer said that the theme of the book of Jonah "is that God's mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance" (1964, 295). Jonah is sometimes called "the first apostle to the Gentiles."
(5) Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah-Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba-in both legal and biological senses ( Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32).
(6) In addition, the prophets clearly revealed Jehovah's redemptive concern for the Gentiles, who were to be grafted into the New Testament church on an equal basis with the Jews ( Genesis 17:4; 22:18; Psalms 2:8; Isaiah 42:1, 6; 49:6; cf. Romans 11:1ff; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11ff).
Conclusion
There always has been a way for honest people to be right with their Creator-if they seek after him and choose to please him ( Acts 17:27ff). God so loved the entire world and gave his Son as a potential redeeming sacrifice for all who avail themselves of his gift ( John 3:16). He is the loving benefactor to everyone who submits to his will in faithful obedience ( 1 Timothy 2:4; Hebrews 5:8-9; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).
Article by Wayne Jackson.
I share this information for one to go over. I haven't had the time to do no more than glance over the beginning being I'm out town on business again.
Hopefully some others can share on this great question you asked.
EVIDENCE OF DIVINE CONCERN FOR THE GENTILES. Continued.
(1) The practice of offering sacrifices as atonement, typically foreshadowing the coming of Jesus, apparently was a human requirement from the very commencement of history. Abel, son of Adam and Eve, brought the "firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof" ( Genesis 4:4). The offering must have been killed, otherwise he could not have presented the fat, which was the best part. Moreover, we are told that "righteous Abel" (so designated by Jesus [ Matthew 23:35]) offered his sacrifice "by faith" ( Hebrews 11:4), which, in the overall context of this chapter, clearly is an objective faith grounded in revelation, and not that which was subjectively whimsical.
When Noah departed from the ark after the waters of the flood subsided, he built an altar and offered sacrifices of every clean animal and bird, and Jehovah was pleased with his offering ( Genesis 8:20-21). What compelled him to do such?
Melchizedek, whom Abraham encountered on his return from the rescue of his nephew, was designated by Moses as a "priest of God Most High" ( Genesis 14:18). A priest is an appointed servant who officiates in the offering of sacrifices to atone for sin. The modernistic notion that Melchizedek was merely the "high god" priest of the Canaanites (e.g., Baal), worshipped in pre-Israelite Jerusalem, is absurd (Hicks 1962, 343). God would hardly have chosen a Baal-worshipper to be a type, prophetically previewing his Son ( Hebrews 7:3). See also Leupold (1942, 463).
(2) The entire world population was one in kind prior to the call of Abraham. He was the first to be designated a Hebrew ( Genesis 14:13). The Hebrews were not set apart as a distinct people until the giving of the law of Moses ( Exodus 19:5-6; cf. Ephesians 2:14). It is wholly unrealistic not to recognize that God's love for the Gentiles was a part of the ancient world.
I don have a bible
I agree with S Spencer and Noel, for those of us who have heard of Jesus and are called and have accepted Jesus as our savior the answer would be no.
I would like to give my understanding; God is a loving God Zephaniah 3:17 God will help and strengthen us Isaiah 41:10 God is just and upright Deuteronomy 32:4 and God is love and merciful Ephesians 2:4.
There are millions of people who lived and died before Jesus first came, and millions who have lived and died since who have never heard who Jesus is and what He offers. What happens to them? Everyone who is alive today and all who have lived in the past has the knowledge of good and evil thanks to the first Adam.
The white throne judgment many teach is only for the lost and unrighteous, my understanding is different. In Revelation 20:11-15 all the rest of the dead is judged, small and great and the books were open, and they were judged from the things written in the books, according to their works. In verse 15 it says this, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". Along with other scriptures, my understanding is there were some names in the book of life.
God only knows, some scripture gives a clue, People under the law being judged by the law and those who do by nature the things contained in the law not under the law (judged from the things written in the books) Romans 2:12-15, and if the white throne judgment is for lost only, how do we understand these verses, Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:32-46 John 5:28-29 Acts 24:14-15.
God bless,
RLW
Pt. 1
What I think is being missed in Galatians 3:29. Is that it actually says the opposite of the way you take it.
It says "you are Abraham's seed, and heirs, ""ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE"". Not law!! and not nationality.
The Promise spoken of here, "the covenant of God in Christ" was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Galatians 3:17. and before Israel was a nation.
So Galatians. 3:29. Is not saying you are Israelites it's saying you are children of Promise as we see in Galatians 4:28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
I think the confusion is when often you call members of the church Israelites citing Galatians 3:29. and
Romans 2:29.
But you must consider
Galatians 3:28. "THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."
So when you revisit Romans 9 and take on Romans 9:6-8. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: "but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
This is not making a distinction between Ishmael and Issac.
It's a distinction between
1) National Israel "The broken off branch who were blinded and who you are attempting to be grafted into " and 2) Messianic Israel who's joint members of the Church and children of the promise.
Have you noticed they all weren't broken off?
Romans 11:17. AND "IF SOME" OF THE BRANCHES BE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; BUT THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded
Here's why they're broken off.
Romans 9:31-32.
c pt2
Thank you for your response. You made a long 3 part response, with great scripture! But your additional scripture does not change or weaken the scripture that I presented.
The main topic was the 10 Commandments, and secondary topic was the analogy of the Gentiles (wild olive tree) being grafted into the Israelites (cultivated olive tree).
I try to remain open minded and adjust as the Spirit may move me. I believe the scripture speaks for itself on these two topics. The chapter Romans 11 is speaks specifically about the Gentiles being grafted into this cultivated olive tree, and becoming Israelites Galatians 3:29. We become Abrahams seed! Paul states this fact again in Romans 2:29 we become Jews inwardly.
You put forth your argument against the Gentiles becoming Israelites and include scripture found in other areas directed at the 3 different/separate groups. The Church, the Gentiles, and Israelites. I agree they have been and CAN continue to be separate. But, the analogy that Paul uses regarding the grafting of the two olives threes - shows that Christ changed this; by keeping the original tree intact, not making a new tree. (You suggested different - we disagree) Jesus Christ is the tree root of the original tree, and the original branches are the Israelites. Paul is stating in scripture that Jesus removes the defective branches (unbelieving Jews), keeping the branches of the believing Jews intact, and then grafting in the believing Gentiles into the tree. In essence, bringing the believing Jews, and believing Gentiles, into ONE BODY - the CHURCH. I hope now, this makes sense to you.
Next, God originally gave the 10 Commandments to the Israelites. Now that we believers have accepted Jesus Christ, and have been adopted into the Church (Olive Tree) we are partakers of God's salvation, along with His Commands - we are treated the same now as the Israelites. No better - no worse!
Read and Believe!
Romans 2:24-29.
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
God bless."
Part 3.
Romans 2:24-29.
Verse 25. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Do you see the Dilemma if you take the verse the way you understood it? If we are Jews the way you described it and can't keep the law then our circumcision becomes uncircumcision if we deny the grace of God and put our trust in the flesh! We also would be broken off!
You are attempting to graft into the broken branch rather the olive tree!
Verse 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This comes at the new birth of the believer and ministered by the Spirit, Not the letter. Its obeying the commandment written on our heart not the letter written on stone. And this comes after Salvation Not to obtain Salvation.
Galatians 5:1-6.
There is the groups mentioned in scripture and they're all distinct. Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
God bless.
Part 2.
Romans 11:10-32.
There is a lot here in this portion of scripture, for one you will see there is two groups here, Us/The Church and Israel.
Take notice of what we are being grafted into! Is it Israel? No, Israel is a branch broken off because of unbelief.
You see the concept in John and Mathews. I am the vine true/genuine vine in John 15:1-12. and Mathews 7:13-23. opposed to Israel in Jeremiah 2:21.
Notice Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Again, salvation wasn't to come by the law where the Gentiles were foreigners, the law was to show the world they needed a savior that's what God promised Abraham.
Genesis 22:18.
SO, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW?
Galatians 3:18-29.
This puts the verse you gave, " Galatians 3:29." in its proper perspective.
More References:
Romans 7:4-7.
Romans 7:8-13.
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
You mentioned Romans 2:29. Let's look at it.
You should take it from Romans 2:11-29. to put it in its context.
Romans 2:11-16.
Notice Paul says, "FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Even before the law was given, we had light in the world that bared witness of right and wrong! (The law put a death sentence on us. Romans 7:8-10.)
Continuing.
Romans 2:17-24.
Context: vs 17. "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,"
This portion of scripture seems to label you as a hypocrite and blasphemer when you put your trust in being able to keep the law.
See verses 24-29 in Part 3.
Part 1 of ?
Your quote:
"Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed." End quote.
your reference scriptures are in Galatians 3:29. and Romans 2:29.
Let's deal with the grafting in first.
You would have to go to Romans 10 to put it into perspective.
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Romans 10:1-4.
NOTE:
Christ is the goal! the Law was given to bring Man to Christ. He said, "I didn't come to patch up an old garment, I came to give you a new garment." (The robe of his righteousness)
Continuing-
Look here in Romans 11:1-9.
Notice verses 5-7.
(Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded)
verses 8-9.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
We will come back to stumblingblock.
see Part 2.
I'm replying to you here in a new thread as the other thread was getting quite long.
We are in agreement that it is the Holy Spirit in us that makes it possible for us to live according to God's Commandments. This wonderful Spirit makes the impossible - possible! Amen.
You continue to state that what was spoken to the Israelites are not applicable to us/Gentiles. The scriptures disagree. Whatever Jesus/God spoke to the Israelites are also spoken to us Gentiles, and we are just as accountable to adhere to these commands today. Why? Because those of us in Christ are now Israelites and we were once Gentiles but the grafting process through Jesus Christ has changed us so that we have become Jews inwardly. Paul tells us below we are now of Abrahams seed.
Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Paul reaffirms that the Gentiles are now Jews inwardly.
Romans 2:29
"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Per the bible scripture the children of Israel (which Gentiles are after adoption) shall keep God's Commandments including observing the Sabbath throughout their generation for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever.
Yes, we who are in Christ, are now Jews inwardly, and will want to keep all of God's Commandments, and again, we do so via God's Holy Spirit, not of our own accord. Amen.
God Bless You!
Lord please help Chuey. Thank you for your witness that went forth in the court and jail through Daniel.
I pray that your goodness would lead them and many more to repentance.
I pray that you would set the feet of these beloved young men on a different path that leads to the foot of the cross. And I pray for their protection while incarcerated. Please keep your hand upon them.
Save them both and use them for your glory! Bring them forth as "treasures" out of darkness.
Please cover Daniel as his testimony goes forth in such a dangerous place. In Jesus mighty name I pray Amen
We are all equal, so we actually are all common folks.
The Hews of the time of Jesus thought themselves to be a superior race and all Gentile inferior or common, even less
human than Jews. How this thought pattern has been repeated in many people groups and societies over the centuries. But it is wrong in every account.
I was just expessing what was the thought concerning Gentiles at that time from the Jewish perspective.
The Jews viewed everyone who was not a Jew as a Gentile, which is often interpreted to mean "common" or "unclean" and not fit to touch not interact with.
That is all I meant. When speaking of the difference between Jew and Gentile, I was referring to how a Gentile is viewed by Jews in ancient times.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I understand your point of view about posts and responses.
Yet, keep in mind that this is a discussion forum, therefore there is nothing wrong with someone responding to posts.
Oftentimes responses help clarify ideas, give additional information, and offer a different viewpoint, and bring correction to what one may think is misinformation.
Even if you do not read or respond back to a response to your post, some of us will still respond for the sake of ALL who read through the posts on this discussion forum. So this is the reason I have responded back to you, but I certainly do not want to bother you.
God bless you, Grae
Jews are the descendants of Judah, so there were no Jews before Judah. Israelites are descendants of Jacob, so there were no Israelites before Jacob
Hebrews are the descendants of Eber, of which Abraham is one descendant. Ever is a descendant of Shem, so there were no Hebrews before Eber.
God had not separated out the chosen nation yet in the times of the people I mentioned. So everyone was gentile (commoners).
I fully agree with GiGi.
Jesus came to take on the penalty of sin.
Romans 5:12-19. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
God bless.
The Lord can meet you right where you are and present Christ.
God bless.
My nderstanding is that the work of Christ on the cross. Stretches. Forward to the end of time and backwards to creation, not just for the people of His days on earth. So, I believe "Gentiles" prior to Christ are saved by His work and grace including Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem, Japheth, and man of their descendants who live before there were Israelites, and even between Abraham and Jesus' time. It is up to God to judge all of this who lived from creation to the end of time, no us. He alone knows the hearts of all people and is the only righteous Judge
I remember hearing many, many years ago of missionaries going out to a people groups, both distant & isolated from any society - they had never seen any other faces apart from their own tribe & maybe a warring tribe. Though many of God's servants who go out to such unknown places are rarely received well & may soon lose their lives as being intruders or bringing forth 'another god'.
But we did hear of a couple of instances when those particular tribes, when they saw these 'white men', believing them to be gods, heard the Gospel & received it with joy & thanksgiving. No doubt great efforts to communicate were made prior to sharing Christ. Apparently, God had been preparing their hearts for this time (as He prepared His servants to be challenged to go out to the tribes), & these tribes had declared that for a very long time, they sensed that they were doing evil & had no knowledge or method of getting forgiveness & help, and as well, that they believed that someone would come one day to guide them. One could only envisage the joy on both the hearts of the hearers & the proclaimers, & the wonderful change wrought in each heart there with the assurance of being accepted by the Lord. These tribal folk knew absolutely nothing about God or the Gospel, but when hearing the Message, everything fell into place & they glorified the God of all flesh.
It's in the heart of every person to yearn for such Truth & help to live according to righteous standards. But many have turned to false gods & self-flagellation, or tried to deaden their evil consciences by good works or filling their lives with substitutes, so that even the liberating healing power of the Gospel becomes a Message for derision & hatred. Man will stand without excuse in that Day.
Part 7 of 7.
(3) Gentiles were not required, but had the privilege of, joining the Hebrew family via the proselytization process (cf. Acts 2:10; 13:16). Additionally, there were many instructions in Moses' law designed to benefit the "strangers" (Gentiles) who came among Israelite people ( Leviticus 19:33ff).
(4) The Lord sent Jonah to the Gentiles of Nineveh ( Jonah 3:1). Archer said that the theme of the book of Jonah "is that God's mercy and compassion extend even to the heathen nations on condition of their repentance" (1964, 295). Jonah is sometimes called "the first apostle to the Gentiles."
(5) Four Gentile women were woven into the genealogical fabric of the Messiah-Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba-in both legal and biological senses ( Matthew 1:5-6; Luke 3:31-32).
(6) In addition, the prophets clearly revealed Jehovah's redemptive concern for the Gentiles, who were to be grafted into the New Testament church on an equal basis with the Jews ( Genesis 17:4; 22:18; Psalms 2:8; Isaiah 42:1, 6; 49:6; cf. Romans 11:1ff; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11ff).
Conclusion
There always has been a way for honest people to be right with their Creator-if they seek after him and choose to please him ( Acts 17:27ff). God so loved the entire world and gave his Son as a potential redeeming sacrifice for all who avail themselves of his gift ( John 3:16). He is the loving benefactor to everyone who submits to his will in faithful obedience ( 1 Timothy 2:4; Hebrews 5:8-9; cf. 2 Peter 3:9).
Article by Wayne Jackson.
I share this information for one to go over. I haven't had the time to do no more than glance over the beginning being I'm out town on business again.
Hopefully some others can share on this great question you asked.
God bless.
Part 6.
EVIDENCE OF DIVINE CONCERN FOR THE GENTILES. Continued.
(1) The practice of offering sacrifices as atonement, typically foreshadowing the coming of Jesus, apparently was a human requirement from the very commencement of history. Abel, son of Adam and Eve, brought the "firstlings of his flock and the fat thereof" ( Genesis 4:4). The offering must have been killed, otherwise he could not have presented the fat, which was the best part. Moreover, we are told that "righteous Abel" (so designated by Jesus [ Matthew 23:35]) offered his sacrifice "by faith" ( Hebrews 11:4), which, in the overall context of this chapter, clearly is an objective faith grounded in revelation, and not that which was subjectively whimsical.
When Noah departed from the ark after the waters of the flood subsided, he built an altar and offered sacrifices of every clean animal and bird, and Jehovah was pleased with his offering ( Genesis 8:20-21). What compelled him to do such?
Melchizedek, whom Abraham encountered on his return from the rescue of his nephew, was designated by Moses as a "priest of God Most High" ( Genesis 14:18). A priest is an appointed servant who officiates in the offering of sacrifices to atone for sin. The modernistic notion that Melchizedek was merely the "high god" priest of the Canaanites (e.g., Baal), worshipped in pre-Israelite Jerusalem, is absurd (Hicks 1962, 343). God would hardly have chosen a Baal-worshipper to be a type, prophetically previewing his Son ( Hebrews 7:3). See also Leupold (1942, 463).
(2) The entire world population was one in kind prior to the call of Abraham. He was the first to be designated a Hebrew ( Genesis 14:13). The Hebrews were not set apart as a distinct people until the giving of the law of Moses ( Exodus 19:5-6; cf. Ephesians 2:14). It is wholly unrealistic not to recognize that God's love for the Gentiles was a part of the ancient world.
See Part 7 of 7!