There has been many different commentators explaining as to whether or not we will know each other in heaven. I am searching the truth, what the KJV scriptures of the Holy Bible says. As I understand it, we will not know each other. I want the truth according to what God/Jesus says in the Bible.
Hello, cherry picked verses can often lose context. For example: John 10:28, if you read before it, in verse 25 Jesus says his own works bears witness (fruit) of Him (same as with Christians), verse 27 says his sheep hears His voice and follow Him- that's an active pursuit requiring action on the part of the followers, just like to follow Jesus it requires action as a Christian. And 28 He will give them eternal life. Eternal life is given after judgment, but some are claiming they have eternal life BEFORE they're even judged regardless of their fruit or blasphemy, etc. Mt 12:32 clearly says anyone who commits blasphemy will not be forgiven, not only on earth now, but in the future.
I wondered whether to put my two cents in where it may not be welcomed, especially after the matter had been settled between you two, which is always a good thing, whether an agreement or not, I learned a lot by reading this thread, but it brought to mind that Scripture " John 10:28-30 (NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
My mother would drill that Scripture into my head, over and over, while I was growing up, "If you are truly His, NOBODY will be able to pluck you out of God's hands." Which was comforting to me.
I guess that's why I found this thread so fascinating, loosing one's faith verses eternal security, but I have to say, God knows the heart, ( Jeremiah 17:10)
I was saved at twelve, I remember it very well, I was saved completely, and read my Bible all the time, was zealous to the things of God, but through-out my life, I was never the 'perfect' Christian, by some in church today, but God loved me anyway, and for some strange reason, He has chose me to minister to those who are broken, in a world that rather ignore them, even in the church. I guess, there's a purpose for everything.
Now, back to why I decided to respond, you two are brilliant men of God, I hope and pray you continue to grow in the knowledge, grace, and wisdom God has given you, and not let a disagreement grow to resentment.
Adam, I appreciate the time you've taken. Sadly, we're in disagreement to a degree. One thing is for sure: I believe in the believer's eternal security & you don't, & I accept that, because I too once shared that position. So I won't bring that up here. But to your other points, briefly.
1. my position on obedience to the Ten Commandments is also shared by many & this is nothing new. It is a matter of understanding Law & Grace & the perils of fusing them together.
2. about Satan's deceptions, to this I would agree. But of course, from the 'camp' that I rest in, we would vigorously stand against Satan's deceptions in the other 'camp'. So, no conviction of error borne here.
3. true, Rom 6:2 was quoted, but the second quote is mine as a response to the first. And this was said to affirm that, if we are dead to sin, it is impossible to live any longer therein. Paul isn't talking about isolated sins, for which we immediately repent & are forgiven, but to those who desire to continue in that lifestyle of sin. This is impossible & this would be the expected response to Paul's question.
4. Judas, nor the disciples could be considered Christians; Christians are such because of the indwelling Holy Spirit post Crucifixion & Resurrection of our Lord. As well, I don't want to be repetitive with correctly dividing between the Old & New Testaments - true Jesus' Words/Parables were spoken to the Jews in relation to Kingdom Life & their behaviour, but all this was a precursor to the great power from His shed Blood & the power of the Holy Spirit which would change some of his hearers, including his carnal disciples.
5. we accept others as fellow Christians as we should & because we aren't in a position to judge them. Only God knows. What if that 'believer' rejects Christ in toto? Why do we then decide to look at that sad situation from our perspective & not God's? Let us look at it as God does. Can you or I ever know the state of one responding to an altar call? I don't.
1 Corinthians 10:13 - talks about temptation. If a Christian can't sin and is saved regardless then what is the reason to avoid temptation? Why would it matter?
If all the Christians were already saved then why would Paul wrote so many books to each of them to encourage them to stay the course, run the race, to avoid sin, and be obedient. Why? If they're already saved, what's the point?
You know that most of the New Testament books are written to Christians, right? 1 Corinthians is literally to the church of Corinth as said in 1:2. If they're all saved regardless, then why write a book, why spread the gospel, why why why?
Earlier it was mentioned that following God is like disrespecting the cross. No, it's the opposite. Not obeying Jesus is like slapping Him in the face and disregarding all he has done.
How can you tell who is a Christian? The Bible says by their fruit which is very similar to works. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Maybe my opinion will give you something to consider or maybe not. I did spend a long time sharing all this to you specifically in brotherly love. I think God really absolutely hates sin, and sin is NOT allowed in heaven and most people will go to hell, including disobedient Christians as it warns against in Matthew 7:21. Most of Jesus's parables are warnings which include to Christians, most of the teachings are to Christians, this is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Many will be deceived and will choose not believe the Bible. God bless...
> if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place
This seems like a tough position to take, because it appears to contradict itself at every angle. For example: what/who is a Christian, to you? Can you give a precise and reliable definition of a Christian?
What if someone you believe is a Christian who meets the criteria you believed was set for one later turned out to turn away from Christ and continue in willful sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26 then you say they were never a Christian in the first place, but why weren't they? I know of Christians who are husbands, dads, pastors, youth ministers, worship leaders, who have each turned from Christianity. There's even a forum online for ex-Christians who have left the faith. So, you say they never were Christian in the first place even after all they did as Christians. So, does that mean someone who only responds to an altar call and prays and gives their heart to Jesus isn't Christian either? What exactly is a Christian?
Even angels in heaven (they're already in heaven) have freewill to sin and turn from God. If even angels have freewill while in heaven, of course mankind does on Earth when God specifically gave mankind the freedom to choose good or evil, to choose love or hate. We're not robots. Just like if you're a dad it's more meaningful if your son/daughter voluntarily says 'I love you', God gave us freewill to choose if we want to be with him or not, to love Him or not, to obey Him or not. It's our choice and we'll also be judged. I suppose if you believe you "can't" sin that doesn't jibe with judgment day either. If we're already saved, what's the point of being judged for our actions?
Secondly, it sounds like you don't believe Christians have freewill if you they can't sin. To say we don't have freewill is to contradict other verses.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation;
The first part is a scripture Romans 6:2, but your 2nd sentence is not in the Bible. It does not say that after Romans 6:2 and I don't believe a Christian sinning is impossible. Even Paul admits to sin and all Christians sin, so to claim Christians can't sin seems inconsistent with the Bible. Here are a few examples:
-Much of Jesus's teachings were to his existing followers, including many warnings to not go astray and to 'do things'. If all his Christian followers were already saved then why would Jesus ask them to keep doing things? Why change at all? Why even preach the gospel? Why have a Bible? Why try? I have never heard anyone who believes OSAS have a clear answer for this. If Christians don't need to avoid sin because they're saved regardless why would anything in the Bible even matter? It does matter, because the Bible clearly says obeying God is important. If you don't obey then you don't love Jesus and aren't following Jesus much.
-Most of Jesus's parables were about how most people will go to hell and how to avoid it. Jesus called people to put forth effort, to change, to take action. If taking action wasn't important or even related to salvation then why would Jesus keep saying it was like in Matthew 7:21? This verse would have to be reinterpreted, discredited, or thrown out to believe that obeying God is bad. Is God likely to say that obeying him is bad or is satan more likely to say that?
-Judas was a Christian and he betrayed Jesus and died a horrible death and likely went to hell.
-People are given freewill. We're not robots. The Bible already says all sin. Anyone claiming Christians can't sin is claiming we don't have freewill. Hebrews 10:26.
Thanks for sharing your explanation. I know you won't change your position and I certainly won't change mine. Each time I read through the Bible my position is only reinforced and each time I pray and ask God to reveal the truth and wisdom in understanding it seems confirmed. So, discussing further isn't likely to bear any fruit. I'm just curious why some passionately spread such an opinion, however, because the risk/reward doesn't seem to balance out. I believe Satan likes deceiving people as he is the great deceiver and liar. He even works to attack Christians' beliefs but they aren't aware of it. So, if there's 2 very different beliefs about salvation, one of them is true and one is false. If satan were to deceive one person into believing a lie, which is more likely: 1) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into being more obedient to God than they actually need to? or 2) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into disobeying God, despite scripture like John 14:15?
So, in essence, it encompasses all the Law & much, much more, as the Spirit calls for that 'higher level of spiritual living & obedience' that the Law could never give & the Jew could never perform. Does all this then give the possibility of believers becoming 'slack' in their faith, believing that, e.g. "I can steal (or, whatever sin), because the Spirit hasn't convicted me or shown me otherwise"? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation; if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place (this is of course, references our other discussion on a believer's Eternal Security). I'll leave it here: my 'short' explanation has turned out otherwise.
And in the case of observance of the Sabbath (which is the commandment that is somewhat extraordinary in the list of commands given, as it is specifically incumbent upon Israel), the keeping of it is mandatory, if the believer is to be totally obedient to all of God's Laws. Hence, 'Sabbath keepers', & all who adhere to obedience to the Ten Commandments are constrained to keep the Sabbath as Holy, without exception. Conversely, those in my understanding, who refuse to keep that Sabbath Law because of reasons cited, would also be hypocritical if they kept the other 'Nine" & left out the 'One'.
So where does this leave us. As far as your understanding & performance of your faith is concerned, I cannot be in a position to answer. But in my understanding & vehement belief, that since God's Salvation through His Son, is only by His Grace & through our Faith in response (& even this Faith is His Gift to us), then obedience to His 'written' Laws not only leads one to knowledge of his own failure to keep them & resultant 'death', but also remains totally incompatible to the Law of Grace as the two are attempted to fusion. What then is the Law of Grace = Law of (Christ's) Spirit? It is the Whole Law of God, not bound by the Ten Commandments & rigid obedience to it which only led to death, but that which is written in our hearts & interpreted for us by His Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". (onto Page 3).
Mishael on Jonah 35-10 411 on Psalms 8 - 4 years ago
Jonah 3:10
The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
The one instance of God repenting.
Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Gentleness
Goodness
Meekness
Temperance
Comforter
Teacher
Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.
Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.
A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.
Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.
I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.
So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.
Adam, re: Jn 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law ( Mt 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes ( Rom 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death ( 2 Cor 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Rom 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).
I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
Jesus disagrees with this in John 14:15. Jesus directly says if you love him you will keep his commandments (law). If you don't obey, then you don't love Jesus. If someone doesn't love or follow Jesus then they likely won't be invited to spend eternity with Him in heaven.
James 2 explains how grace and works work together. Its possible what you were trying to say is actually from James 2:10, but it doesn't say what you wrote. If you read on it clearly supports doing good works. No where in the Bible does it say we're NOT supposed to obey God or Jesus. It says the opposite throughout.
I watch out for anyone claiming good works are 'bad', as if following Jesus and his commands are bad. But somehow that not worrying about following Jesus's commands is 'ok' despite the exact words Jesus said that say the opposite. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Calling good bad sounds awfully familiar as if it comes a deceiver.
If you pursue Christ you are a Christian under grace, but following Him is an activity involving effort. It's not human effort that saves anyone, but it should be the natural fruit of loving Jesus. Many call themselves Christians and don't love Jesus, because they don't obey, and they will be surprised in the end just as Jesus predicted: Revelation 3:16 and Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 10:26.
Thank you Carol. I guess there's not too much else to add to this conversation thread as we both are looking at this subject through different perspectives & the twain can never meet or be compromised. One view is obedience to the whole Law of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments), & the other, obedience to Jesus, the fulfilment of all of God's Law, indeed "For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth". ( Rom 10:4).
I don't need to make further comment here as it has all been said in my previous comments. The only emphasis I would add, is that the Law was only for the Jews & no one else. So had Jesus not come for our salvation & freedom from the awful consequences by disobedience to even one of those laws, then we Gentiles would be judged by the law written in our hearts & ultimately by our Great Judge Who would judge us by our 'failed' efforts to be righteous ( Rom 2: 14,15). And the Jews would have been judged by the Law, which they could never keep to the saving of their souls. ( Rom 3:20; 2:12). BUT in His Mercy, God sent His Son to save not only His people (Jews), but to open the door of salvation to us (Gentiles), who had no part in God's Plan for the Jews, but for the Mercy & Love of God to all of His creation, now included us Gentiles. If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law. ( Rom 11:5,6: 'works' = working of the law).
Thank you for your time Carol; your comments are noted & appreciated.
The only way we can get to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood was shed for our sins. It is He that cleanses us. The only hope is in Jesus. Sin is the transgression of the Law. Which law? The ten commandments. All the ceremonial laws, the feasts, all the sacrificing of animals was done away with at the cross. Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit didn't need our help when He made the earth, moon or hung the stars. He said everything He made was good and he rested the seventh day and blessed it and sanctified it. He didn't do that on any other day. We can worship God every day but we cannot keep each day holy.
I John 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." ! John 5: 2,3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous". Roman 7: 7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said,Thou shalt not covet." The ten commandments is our "map" to salvation. It is God's character. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
We cook and clean house and do nice things for our family and friends. Why? We love them and want to please them. If we love Jesus we should want to please him. We have to have a one on one relationship with Him. Jesus should be the center of our life. He is love. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.
May the Holy Spirit be with you as you study God's word.
Carol, I hear you. So let's take the 10 Commandments, which according to you, we have to obey in its entirety. As well, when I see God's Laws, I see ALL of them that require obedience, not just the '10', but the whole deal. You say that the sacrificial part of those Laws were done away with through Christ's Sacrifice: how very true, but why are those laws negated and the 10 Commandments somehow excluded? You did say that they reflect "God's Character", & this too is true as they also show man's responsibility & behaviour. But, to those under the Law (Jews), "if he shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Js 2:10); telling us that the breaking of one Law makes us (read: the Jews) guilty of all God's Laws.
And so, Paul became (appeared) "as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" ( 1 Cor 9:20). But, "to them that are WITHOUT LAW (us Gentiles), as without law, (being not without law to God, but UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST,) that I might gain them that are without law" ( 1 Cor 9:21). So, if we Gentiles are not under the Law, but now under Grace ( Rom 6:15), then the whole Law (for the Jew) has been nailed to the Cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" ( Col 2:14). So, in truth, those under Grace, are not bound by any of God's Laws (to the Jews, or else not only keeping the Sabbath, but also of circumcision are binding), but all (both Jews & Gentiles), whether previously under the Law or not, are now released from its obligations & punishment, BY CHRIST'S Sacrifice alone. Therefore, e.g. "Thou shalt not kill" ( Ex 20:13) now becomes Mt 5:21,22: anger without cause becomes murder. God's Laws showed man his sin but couldn't cleanse him - the Law of Christ takes us way beyond that, as we fully obey Him through the His Spirit ( Rom 7:6).
"To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them". Isiah 8:20 When Jesus was nailed to the cross the Mosaic Laws was also nailed to the cross. We no longer had to sacrifice animals for forgiveness, Jesus was the Lamb that was slain. His blood covers our sins. The Ten Commandments is God's character. His Ten Commandments still stand. If they do not, then it is okay to lie, steal, murder, covet etc. We can't pick and choose what commandments we keep. If you offend in one you offend in all. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"
Matthew 5:17, 18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".
I do believe in keeping the Sabbath, but keeping the Sabbath is only one of God's commandments. We have to obey all of God's Commandments. Jesus died so that we may be saved.
Thanks for your comments Carol. Of course, Jesus never uttered a direction to remove the Sabbath from the Law for future 'Christians': it was still the Age of Law until the fulfillment of it through God's Son. So in reality, no Christian, post Pentecost, needed obedience to any of God's laws to be saved or to gain God's favour. If we're to be completely obedient to God's Laws, then we must the do all His Laws; & which believer practises all the laws required in Exodus & Leviticus?
Rom 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth". All His Laws, including the Sabbath, are no longer binding on the believer as God doesn't judge us by them (or else who then can be saved & what did Jesus accomplish?), but found in totality in Jesus & in His finished work at Calvary.
Rom 8:1,2: "....for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin & death". It is the Spirit of Christ Who now both gives & interprets ALL of God's Laws to those now under Grace. If this then in your understanding, includes the keeping of the Sabbath, then that is your desire, but now in Christ, the believer is led by God's Spirit, by the practise of the apostles & the early Church & because everyday is holy unto the Lord & we are not constrained by OT burdens ( Col 2:16,17).
I agree with you that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's Law. Jesus was resurrected and was among his disciples after the resurrection. If He changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, surely He would have told them. In Mathew 22:36-40, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". The first four commandments are our obligation/love for God, the remaining six is our obligation/love to our fellow man. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. God said, I change not.
Mathew 15:9 & Mark 7:7, Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".
Search the scriptures, for they testify of me. II Tim. 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Is. 58:13, 14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob they father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
Do we worship God and believe what He says or do we worship what man says? I am not trying to offend, judge anyone in any way, shape or form. I love the Lord and want to do what He says and follow His example. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
Thanks Carol for your comments; so I'll address them if I may. I'm in full agreement with what you correctly observe that God indeed blessed the Sabbath Day & He rested from all His Works. And also, that it was demonstrated right from Creation, & made law for the children of Israel. And then when Israel was later called Jews, the law was still very much in vogue. For this change, they were first called Hebrews (Abrahamic times); Jacob's name then changed to Israel; after Israel moved to Egypt because of famine in the land, they were called Israelites; after many years & under Roman rule in the area they called Judea, the Israelites became known as Judeans; it is then understood that the word Jews, came from the people living in Judea. So my reference to the Jewish Sabbath, was not to imply that the command came to the Jews, but that Jews, who had their roots right up to the Hebrew period, had the same unchanged commands.
Constantine (in 321 AD) did make Sunday worship 'official', the Nicea Council may also have had bearing on this, but was this when Sunday was adopted as the worship day for Christians? Again, I refer you to Acts 20:7 & Rev 1:10, which are clear, & to 1 Cor 16:2, which speaks of Paul's desire to collect from the Churches gifts that were to be given to the poor saints in Jerusalem. So on the first day of the week (Sunday), as the Corinthian Church gave of their gifts to the work there, they should also put aside extra (according to God's provision) for the poor saints. Whether they held onto these special gifts or put it into a common repository is unknown, but Paul wanted no 'mad dash' for collecting the gifts when he came to visit them.
Your further remarks on the Sabbath, I have dealt with, saying earlier, that "Jesus is now our Sabbath, our Spiritual Rest. Please be assured, that I'm not picking & choosing which commandments to obey, I follow biblical teaching within the bounds of law & grace: that CHRIST IS THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S LAWS.
Chris, Thank you for responding. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. "God rested on the Sabbath day, the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." There were no Jews when God blessed the seventh day so it cannot be said that it is a Jewish Sabbath. Only Adam and Eve was on the earth at that time. The Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday by Constantine in 321 A.D. The scriptures you gave in Acts was a meeting, not church and the scripture in 1 Corinthians was talking about giving (collections).
I believe what the bible says and I believe the bible is God's word. God said to "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". I don't think it trivial to follow what is in the 10 Commandments. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Revelation14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". Jesus is our example, he went into the temple as was His custom on the seventh day.
I am not judging anyone or trying to offend anyone. Jesus did not say to change the commandments in honor of his resurrection, He said keep my commandments. Jesus said if you offend in one, then you offend in all. Do we say it is ok to kill, lie or steal? No we don't. Why do we keep the traditions of man above what God has plainly stated and written by His own hand on two tablets of stone?
Carol, the early Christians started to meet together in homes on the first day of the week: Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2. We believe that this was not just to be different to the Jewish Sabbath, but in remembrance of the Lord's Resurrection on the first day of the week. As well, apostle Paul & probably the other apostles, used to meet up with the Jews on the Sabbath in the synagogues to discuss with them matters of the Law (& Grace). And Jesus "came not to destroy the Law (which was given to Israel) but to fulfil it ( Mt 5:17). In other words, in Christ was found the full realization of the Law & the Prophets; which means, that through faith in Him, God's Laws & requirements for us are now written in our hearts by His Spirit & not by hand as in the commandments ( 2 Cor 3:3). Jesus is our 'Sabbath' = our Rest ( Heb 4:9-11): a spiritual rest & not a physical one as was first commanded for the needs of the body & sanctification of the day.
Then again, if you consider believers in Muslim countries, they generally worship on a Friday, as Muslims do; they do so not to align with them, but probably because this is also their day off (& usually the only day off during the week), so that they could then come together as a Church. However, there are still Church services held on Sunday in some of these countries to cater for those who can make it to a Sunday service. As well, apostle Paul also speaks of this aspect, in relation to judging others for their particular inclinations, e.g. with food, drink, holy days, sabbaths ( Col 2:16); we are just simply to respect another's worship style or days observed & not judge them for such trivial matters, rather, be concerned when God's Word is not carefully brought out, false teaching coming into the Church or 'Christians' leading licentious lives. By all means worship the Lord on a Saturday, but understand why others follow the NT Church pattern.
Why was it acceptable to change the day of worship from Sabbath, Saturday to Sunday? God said, "I change not". The fourth commandment said "Remember the Sabbath", the only commandment with "Remember". Isn't being a Christian meaning Christlike? Jesus went to the temple on Saturday as was his custom. Why do people go to church on Sunday? God wrote the 10 Commandments with his own finger, he hung the stars, moon and the sun, he created us, did he need our help? We should worship on the day He said. We can worship everyday, but we can't keep every day holy. Sabbath was made for man.
I wondered whether to put my two cents in where it may not be welcomed, especially after the matter had been settled between you two, which is always a good thing, whether an agreement or not, I learned a lot by reading this thread, but it brought to mind that Scripture " John 10:28-30 (NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
My mother would drill that Scripture into my head, over and over, while I was growing up, "If you are truly His, NOBODY will be able to pluck you out of God's hands." Which was comforting to me.
I guess that's why I found this thread so fascinating, loosing one's faith verses eternal security, but I have to say, God knows the heart, ( Jeremiah 17:10)
I was saved at twelve, I remember it very well, I was saved completely, and read my Bible all the time, was zealous to the things of God, but through-out my life, I was never the 'perfect' Christian, by some in church today, but God loved me anyway, and for some strange reason, He has chose me to minister to those who are broken, in a world that rather ignore them, even in the church. I guess, there's a purpose for everything.
Now, back to why I decided to respond, you two are brilliant men of God, I hope and pray you continue to grow in the knowledge, grace, and wisdom God has given you, and not let a disagreement grow to resentment.
Thanks again for everything,
Etta
1. my position on obedience to the Ten Commandments is also shared by many & this is nothing new. It is a matter of understanding Law & Grace & the perils of fusing them together.
2. about Satan's deceptions, to this I would agree. But of course, from the 'camp' that I rest in, we would vigorously stand against Satan's deceptions in the other 'camp'. So, no conviction of error borne here.
3. true, Rom 6:2 was quoted, but the second quote is mine as a response to the first. And this was said to affirm that, if we are dead to sin, it is impossible to live any longer therein. Paul isn't talking about isolated sins, for which we immediately repent & are forgiven, but to those who desire to continue in that lifestyle of sin. This is impossible & this would be the expected response to Paul's question.
4. Judas, nor the disciples could be considered Christians; Christians are such because of the indwelling Holy Spirit post Crucifixion & Resurrection of our Lord. As well, I don't want to be repetitive with correctly dividing between the Old & New Testaments - true Jesus' Words/Parables were spoken to the Jews in relation to Kingdom Life & their behaviour, but all this was a precursor to the great power from His shed Blood & the power of the Holy Spirit which would change some of his hearers, including his carnal disciples.
5. we accept others as fellow Christians as we should & because we aren't in a position to judge them. Only God knows. What if that 'believer' rejects Christ in toto? Why do we then decide to look at that sad situation from our perspective & not God's? Let us look at it as God does. Can you or I ever know the state of one responding to an altar call? I don't.
1 Corinthians 10:13 - talks about temptation. If a Christian can't sin and is saved regardless then what is the reason to avoid temptation? Why would it matter?
If all the Christians were already saved then why would Paul wrote so many books to each of them to encourage them to stay the course, run the race, to avoid sin, and be obedient. Why? If they're already saved, what's the point?
You know that most of the New Testament books are written to Christians, right? 1 Corinthians is literally to the church of Corinth as said in 1:2. If they're all saved regardless, then why write a book, why spread the gospel, why why why?
Earlier it was mentioned that following God is like disrespecting the cross. No, it's the opposite. Not obeying Jesus is like slapping Him in the face and disregarding all he has done.
How can you tell who is a Christian? The Bible says by their fruit which is very similar to works. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Maybe my opinion will give you something to consider or maybe not. I did spend a long time sharing all this to you specifically in brotherly love. I think God really absolutely hates sin, and sin is NOT allowed in heaven and most people will go to hell, including disobedient Christians as it warns against in Matthew 7:21. Most of Jesus's parables are warnings which include to Christians, most of the teachings are to Christians, this is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Many will be deceived and will choose not believe the Bible. God bless...
part 3:
> if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place
This seems like a tough position to take, because it appears to contradict itself at every angle. For example: what/who is a Christian, to you? Can you give a precise and reliable definition of a Christian?
What if someone you believe is a Christian who meets the criteria you believed was set for one later turned out to turn away from Christ and continue in willful sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26 then you say they were never a Christian in the first place, but why weren't they? I know of Christians who are husbands, dads, pastors, youth ministers, worship leaders, who have each turned from Christianity. There's even a forum online for ex-Christians who have left the faith. So, you say they never were Christian in the first place even after all they did as Christians. So, does that mean someone who only responds to an altar call and prays and gives their heart to Jesus isn't Christian either? What exactly is a Christian?
Even angels in heaven (they're already in heaven) have freewill to sin and turn from God. If even angels have freewill while in heaven, of course mankind does on Earth when God specifically gave mankind the freedom to choose good or evil, to choose love or hate. We're not robots. Just like if you're a dad it's more meaningful if your son/daughter voluntarily says 'I love you', God gave us freewill to choose if we want to be with him or not, to love Him or not, to obey Him or not. It's our choice and we'll also be judged. I suppose if you believe you "can't" sin that doesn't jibe with judgment day either. If we're already saved, what's the point of being judged for our actions?
Secondly, it sounds like you don't believe Christians have freewill if you they can't sin. To say we don't have freewill is to contradict other verses.
The second observation is your quote:
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation;
The first part is a scripture Romans 6:2, but your 2nd sentence is not in the Bible. It does not say that after Romans 6:2 and I don't believe a Christian sinning is impossible. Even Paul admits to sin and all Christians sin, so to claim Christians can't sin seems inconsistent with the Bible. Here are a few examples:
-Much of Jesus's teachings were to his existing followers, including many warnings to not go astray and to 'do things'. If all his Christian followers were already saved then why would Jesus ask them to keep doing things? Why change at all? Why even preach the gospel? Why have a Bible? Why try? I have never heard anyone who believes OSAS have a clear answer for this. If Christians don't need to avoid sin because they're saved regardless why would anything in the Bible even matter? It does matter, because the Bible clearly says obeying God is important. If you don't obey then you don't love Jesus and aren't following Jesus much.
-Most of Jesus's parables were about how most people will go to hell and how to avoid it. Jesus called people to put forth effort, to change, to take action. If taking action wasn't important or even related to salvation then why would Jesus keep saying it was like in Matthew 7:21? This verse would have to be reinterpreted, discredited, or thrown out to believe that obeying God is bad. Is God likely to say that obeying him is bad or is satan more likely to say that?
-Judas was a Christian and he betrayed Jesus and died a horrible death and likely went to hell.
-People are given freewill. We're not robots. The Bible already says all sin. Anyone claiming Christians can't sin is claiming we don't have freewill. Hebrews 10:26.
Thanks for sharing your explanation. I know you won't change your position and I certainly won't change mine. Each time I read through the Bible my position is only reinforced and each time I pray and ask God to reveal the truth and wisdom in understanding it seems confirmed. So, discussing further isn't likely to bear any fruit. I'm just curious why some passionately spread such an opinion, however, because the risk/reward doesn't seem to balance out. I believe Satan likes deceiving people as he is the great deceiver and liar. He even works to attack Christians' beliefs but they aren't aware of it. So, if there's 2 very different beliefs about salvation, one of them is true and one is false. If satan were to deceive one person into believing a lie, which is more likely: 1) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into being more obedient to God than they actually need to? or 2) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into disobeying God, despite scripture like John 14:15?
So, in essence, it encompasses all the Law & much, much more, as the Spirit calls for that 'higher level of spiritual living & obedience' that the Law could never give & the Jew could never perform. Does all this then give the possibility of believers becoming 'slack' in their faith, believing that, e.g. "I can steal (or, whatever sin), because the Spirit hasn't convicted me or shown me otherwise"? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation; if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place (this is of course, references our other discussion on a believer's Eternal Security). I'll leave it here: my 'short' explanation has turned out otherwise.
The Lord be with your spirit Adam.
And in the case of observance of the Sabbath (which is the commandment that is somewhat extraordinary in the list of commands given, as it is specifically incumbent upon Israel), the keeping of it is mandatory, if the believer is to be totally obedient to all of God's Laws. Hence, 'Sabbath keepers', & all who adhere to obedience to the Ten Commandments are constrained to keep the Sabbath as Holy, without exception. Conversely, those in my understanding, who refuse to keep that Sabbath Law because of reasons cited, would also be hypocritical if they kept the other 'Nine" & left out the 'One'.
So where does this leave us. As far as your understanding & performance of your faith is concerned, I cannot be in a position to answer. But in my understanding & vehement belief, that since God's Salvation through His Son, is only by His Grace & through our Faith in response (& even this Faith is His Gift to us), then obedience to His 'written' Laws not only leads one to knowledge of his own failure to keep them & resultant 'death', but also remains totally incompatible to the Law of Grace as the two are attempted to fusion. What then is the Law of Grace = Law of (Christ's) Spirit? It is the Whole Law of God, not bound by the Ten Commandments & rigid obedience to it which only led to death, but that which is written in our hearts & interpreted for us by His Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". (onto Page 3).
The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
The one instance of God repenting.
Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:
Love
Joy
Peace
Long suffering
Gentleness
Goodness
Meekness
Temperance
Comforter
Teacher
Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.
What would the Holy Spirit do?
Jesus said to Peter: feed my sheep; 3 times.
Intercessory prayer is for His flock.
Standing in the gap, is for carrying lambs.
Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.
A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.
Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.
(onto Page 2).
I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.
So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.
May God bless you...
I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.
>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.
Jesus disagrees with this in John 14:15. Jesus directly says if you love him you will keep his commandments (law). If you don't obey, then you don't love Jesus. If someone doesn't love or follow Jesus then they likely won't be invited to spend eternity with Him in heaven.
James 2 explains how grace and works work together. Its possible what you were trying to say is actually from James 2:10, but it doesn't say what you wrote. If you read on it clearly supports doing good works. No where in the Bible does it say we're NOT supposed to obey God or Jesus. It says the opposite throughout.
I watch out for anyone claiming good works are 'bad', as if following Jesus and his commands are bad. But somehow that not worrying about following Jesus's commands is 'ok' despite the exact words Jesus said that say the opposite. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Calling good bad sounds awfully familiar as if it comes a deceiver.
If you pursue Christ you are a Christian under grace, but following Him is an activity involving effort. It's not human effort that saves anyone, but it should be the natural fruit of loving Jesus. Many call themselves Christians and don't love Jesus, because they don't obey, and they will be surprised in the end just as Jesus predicted: Revelation 3:16 and Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 10:26.
I don't need to make further comment here as it has all been said in my previous comments. The only emphasis I would add, is that the Law was only for the Jews & no one else. So had Jesus not come for our salvation & freedom from the awful consequences by disobedience to even one of those laws, then we Gentiles would be judged by the law written in our hearts & ultimately by our Great Judge Who would judge us by our 'failed' efforts to be righteous ( Rom 2: 14,15). And the Jews would have been judged by the Law, which they could never keep to the saving of their souls. ( Rom 3:20; 2:12). BUT in His Mercy, God sent His Son to save not only His people (Jews), but to open the door of salvation to us (Gentiles), who had no part in God's Plan for the Jews, but for the Mercy & Love of God to all of His creation, now included us Gentiles. If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law. ( Rom 11:5,6: 'works' = working of the law).
Thank you for your time Carol; your comments are noted & appreciated.
I John 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." ! John 5: 2,3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous". Roman 7: 7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said,Thou shalt not covet." The ten commandments is our "map" to salvation. It is God's character. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
We cook and clean house and do nice things for our family and friends. Why? We love them and want to please them. If we love Jesus we should want to please him. We have to have a one on one relationship with Him. Jesus should be the center of our life. He is love. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.
May the Holy Spirit be with you as you study God's word.
And so, Paul became (appeared) "as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are UNDER THE LAW, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" ( 1 Cor 9:20). But, "to them that are WITHOUT LAW (us Gentiles), as without law, (being not without law to God, but UNDER THE LAW TO CHRIST,) that I might gain them that are without law" ( 1 Cor 9:21). So, if we Gentiles are not under the Law, but now under Grace ( Rom 6:15), then the whole Law (for the Jew) has been nailed to the Cross: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" ( Col 2:14). So, in truth, those under Grace, are not bound by any of God's Laws (to the Jews, or else not only keeping the Sabbath, but also of circumcision are binding), but all (both Jews & Gentiles), whether previously under the Law or not, are now released from its obligations & punishment, BY CHRIST'S Sacrifice alone. Therefore, e.g. "Thou shalt not kill" ( Ex 20:13) now becomes Mt 5:21,22: anger without cause becomes murder. God's Laws showed man his sin but couldn't cleanse him - the Law of Christ takes us way beyond that, as we fully obey Him through the His Spirit ( Rom 7:6).
Matthew 5:17, 18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".
I do believe in keeping the Sabbath, but keeping the Sabbath is only one of God's commandments. We have to obey all of God's Commandments. Jesus died so that we may be saved.
1 Corinthians 14:26
1 Thess. 5:11
Matthew 28:20
Deuteronomy 31:12-13
There's five reasons. It's much more powerful if the church is well attended for Corporate Prayer (in case you're sick or struggling in some area.)
Rom 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth". All His Laws, including the Sabbath, are no longer binding on the believer as God doesn't judge us by them (or else who then can be saved & what did Jesus accomplish?), but found in totality in Jesus & in His finished work at Calvary.
Rom 8:1,2: "....for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin & death". It is the Spirit of Christ Who now both gives & interprets ALL of God's Laws to those now under Grace. If this then in your understanding, includes the keeping of the Sabbath, then that is your desire, but now in Christ, the believer is led by God's Spirit, by the practise of the apostles & the early Church & because everyday is holy unto the Lord & we are not constrained by OT burdens ( Col 2:16,17).
Mathew 15:9 & Mark 7:7, Jesus said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".
Search the scriptures, for they testify of me. II Tim. 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Is. 58:13, 14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob they father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
Do we worship God and believe what He says or do we worship what man says? I am not trying to offend, judge anyone in any way, shape or form. I love the Lord and want to do what He says and follow His example. It is only through Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
Constantine (in 321 AD) did make Sunday worship 'official', the Nicea Council may also have had bearing on this, but was this when Sunday was adopted as the worship day for Christians? Again, I refer you to Acts 20:7 & Rev 1:10, which are clear, & to 1 Cor 16:2, which speaks of Paul's desire to collect from the Churches gifts that were to be given to the poor saints in Jerusalem. So on the first day of the week (Sunday), as the Corinthian Church gave of their gifts to the work there, they should also put aside extra (according to God's provision) for the poor saints. Whether they held onto these special gifts or put it into a common repository is unknown, but Paul wanted no 'mad dash' for collecting the gifts when he came to visit them.
Your further remarks on the Sabbath, I have dealt with, saying earlier, that "Jesus is now our Sabbath, our Spiritual Rest. Please be assured, that I'm not picking & choosing which commandments to obey, I follow biblical teaching within the bounds of law & grace: that CHRIST IS THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S LAWS.
I believe what the bible says and I believe the bible is God's word. God said to "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". I don't think it trivial to follow what is in the 10 Commandments. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. Revelation14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus". Jesus is our example, he went into the temple as was His custom on the seventh day.
I am not judging anyone or trying to offend anyone. Jesus did not say to change the commandments in honor of his resurrection, He said keep my commandments. Jesus said if you offend in one, then you offend in all. Do we say it is ok to kill, lie or steal? No we don't. Why do we keep the traditions of man above what God has plainly stated and written by His own hand on two tablets of stone?
Then again, if you consider believers in Muslim countries, they generally worship on a Friday, as Muslims do; they do so not to align with them, but probably because this is also their day off (& usually the only day off during the week), so that they could then come together as a Church. However, there are still Church services held on Sunday in some of these countries to cater for those who can make it to a Sunday service. As well, apostle Paul also speaks of this aspect, in relation to judging others for their particular inclinations, e.g. with food, drink, holy days, sabbaths ( Col 2:16); we are just simply to respect another's worship style or days observed & not judge them for such trivial matters, rather, be concerned when God's Word is not carefully brought out, false teaching coming into the Church or 'Christians' leading licentious lives. By all means worship the Lord on a Saturday, but understand why others follow the NT Church pattern.