I did a search using the phrase seed of woman and am understanding that many scriptures seem to be implying that the seed of a woman is the conception itself, since the seed of a woman has the potential to grow into a child.
These are two of the scriptures I found:
"And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, The LORD give thee seed of this woman for the loan which is lent to the LORD. And they went unto their own home." 1 Samuel 2:20 KJV
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." Leviticus 12:2 KJV
There are some other scripture also that reference seed as just being of a man, however biologically a seed in futile soil will grow to its full potential given the right environment and a seed of a woman will develop into another human being (unborn child).
This chapter details the requirements for time set aside for women following childbirth. They basically are considered unclean for as long as they continue to have a blood flow from giving birth. This usually is about 6 weeks, sometimes longer.
Although I do not see why the time of purification was longer for a female baby versus a male. But God has His reasons here.
God is consistent in determining that contact with blood is unclean (unless you are a priest offering a blood sacrifice).
I do think that God was giving this ordinance as a protection for the woman and her baby. They were to basically be secluded from the community during this time to avoid touching any holy thing or from anyone touching them and becoming unclean. What this ordinance allows for is time. Time for the Mom and baby to bond and get a good start on breastfeeding and infant care. The mother is the one who takes care of the baby during this time.
They both are in a vulnerable state for becoming ill, overtired, and stressed. Knowing that, as a mother, you don't need to overexert yourself with affairs other than caring for yourself and baby (and other young children in her care). A mother's body needs time to heal and regain strength and vitality. Childbirth takes a lot out of the mother and is stressful for the baby. Being able to repose in a calm environment away from the hustle and bustle of community life is a good thing for both mother and baby.
Sometimes it is too easy to see God's strictness in giving such laws, but I see in this His mercy and care for mothers and babies. He wanted to be sure they get off to a good start. The fact that He designed it that the mother continues to have a blood flow for the time frames listed is a physical reminder of the need to slow down, put first things first. There will be many more days for the woman to be considered "clean" and welcomed into the assembly than the days of being "unclean". God gave women down time. Yes!
Thank you for taking the time to answer my 2 questions.
1) You mention that the commandment at Leviticus 12:3 was a "suggestion". When the Law was give to Israel, they made a covenant between themselves and God. Please read Exodus 34:3-8. Notice specifically
Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people ALL THE WORDS of the LORD, and ALL THE JUDGMENTS: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, ALL THE WORDS which the LORD hath said will we do."
That does not sound like a "suggestion" but a command - an order. Jewish people have thus very meticulously made certain to circumcise their children. Moses was almost killed by the LORD because he had not circumcised his son. Please read Exodus 4:24-26. That seems to me that the LORD takes circumcision very, very seriously. In fact, in the first century, even believing Jews believed that a believer in the Messiah must be circumcised to be saved.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED."
2) You mention that the first century Church followed the 10 commandments.
I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. They are re-iterated in the New Testament or Covenant set up by Jesus through his blood mentioned at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20. However, nowhere do the Apostles every tell the Church, in clear words, "remember to keep the sabbath". Could you provide me 1 verse where an apostle clearly says to keep the sabbath - that actual word "sabbath" being used? In fact, Paul says the opposite at Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:10.
3) Now to answer your question. The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. They said that they obeyed the commandments. Those would be the commandments of the New Testament given by Jesus Christ through his Apostles via the letters of Romans to Revelation.
1. Did God make a mistake when he created a request (not a commandment) to circumcise?
No, God did not make a mistake. It was a request, per the scripture below:
Leviticus 12:1
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," 2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying," and continued on....3And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
God said to Moses SPEAK to the children of Israel! This circumcision was a REQUEST at that time. It was not a commandment in the same sense as a commandment in God's 10 Commandments. VERY IMPORTANT distinction!
Your second question:
You ask why did the church of the 1st century change God's request of circumcision. Because it wasn't one of God's 10 commandments.
The apostles believed and followed God's 10 commandments, and they did not change any of God's 10 Commandments!
Here is apostle John stating that fact:
1 John 2:3
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
Now Brother Michael, please answer one question for me: Do you believe that the apostles were wrong in following and keeping God's 10 Commandments?
Thank you for your response. Yes, we both agree that we must obey God's commandments and remain faithful until death to inherit the blessings. Where we don't, perhaps, see eye to eye is what are the commandments of God today.
Do you keep God's commandments by getting circumcised as per Leviticus 12:3?
Do you keep God's commandments and dwell in booths for seven days every year as per Leviticus 23:42?
Do you make fringes on the border of your garments as per God's commandment at Numbers 15:38?
Do you go up to Jerusalem three times a year as per God's commandment at Exodus 23:17?
If you answer no, it seems to me that you don't, after all, obey God's commandments. Jesus and the Apostle John did not say, "If you obey the 10 commandments", but rather, "If you obey the commandments" (all the commandments). The question arises, though, which commandments?
I would suggest the commandments of the New Covenant (or Testament) found in the portion of our Bibles called the New Testament.
As for Matthew 5:17-18, please note one important point - it says till all be fulfilled. The purpose of the law was fulfilled when Christ offered up his perfect life in sacrifice. Then, it was done away with. Notice:
Galatians 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law (a schoolmaster), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore THE LAW WAS our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But AFTER that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).
That's why Jesus also said at the parallel account of Matthew 5:17-18 found at Luke 16:16.
Luke 16:16 "The LAW and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
Then, Jesus set up the New Covenant.
Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
Thank you for your comments. I was wanting to respond specifically to your comment, "I guess they think Christ died on the cross so we can be Lawless."
No, I do not believe that Jesus died for me so that I could be lawless. I do want to obey God's Laws. However, what has God commanded me to do? Would you suggest that I be circumcised so as to keep God's Law recorded at Leviticus 12:3? Why would I do that when the Apostles decided in Acts 15 that I need not be circumcised in order to serve God.
So, what do I obey. As a Christian, I obey the instructions that the Apostles gave to the first-century Church in the epistles from Romans to Revelation. They never tell me to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised or keep the festivals of Israel. In fact, they tell me the opposite:
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Galatians 4:10 "Ye observe days (sabbaths), and months (lunar month), and times (festivals), and years (sabbatical). I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
I obey the New Testament made between God and the Church of God via the mediator Jesus Christ since I am a Christian. I do not obey the Old Testament made between God and ancient Israel via the mediator Moses. I am not an Israelite.
Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.
Notice that the Bible is separated into 2 portions - the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus inaugurated the New Testament with his shed blood. See Luke 22:20. These are the laws that I obey - God's laws for Christians in the New Testament.
You quoted Exodus 20:10 to say that we must observe the sabbath. However, you quoted from the Old Testament given to the ancient nation of Israel. Could you provide me a verse from the New Testament which commands the Church to keep the Sabbath? If not, why not? Why would the Apostles never instruct or remind the Christian Church to keep the sabbath if it was that important?
You also quoted Malachi 2:6 that God never changes. But, then why did God change the law of circumcision? The Old Testament said you must be circumcised - a commandment of God at Leviticus 12:3. But, in the New Testament, we are told that circumcision is not necessary. See Galatians 5:2. Also, why does Hebrews 7:12 say the the priesthood was changed? I thought you said that God never changes. In the Old Testament, the priesthood was Levitical but in the New Testament, the priesthood is according to the order of Mechizedek - another change of God. See Hebrews 7:11.
The Apostle Paul, at Galatians 4:10, scolds the Galatians for keeping the Old Testament rituals. The brackets are mine.
Galatians 4:10
"Ye observe (sabbath) days, and (lunar) months, and (festivals) times, and (sabbatical) years."
No wonder the Apostle Paul asks the question at:
Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the (Mosaic Old Testament) law, do ye not hear the law?"
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
I would suggest that the "commandments" referred to in 1 John 5:2, 3 are not the 10 commandments nor the Mosaic Law commandments. If that were so, then Christians would be obligated to circumcise their children as per God's commandment at Leviticus 12:3. The New Testament said that circumcision is not required at Acts 15. Yet, that was a commandment of God. If we are to obey all God's commandments, then why do we not go up to Jerusalem three times a year as was commanded by God's commandment at Deuteronomy 16:16. Why do we not stone adulterers and adulteresses as commanded by God at Leviticus 20:10. That was his commandment.
I would suggest that the "commandments" of God referred to at 1 John 5:2, 3 are the New Covenant commandments that were given to the Church through the Apostles via revelations such as to the Apostle Paul and inspiration as others wrote the New Testament - Romans to Revelation. In those instructions, we are never commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy nor to keep the kosher laws. In fact, we are commanded the opposite:
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Therefore, Christians do not obey the Old Covenant Mosaic Law given to ancient Israel but only to the New Covenant Laws given to the Church via the Apostles through the epistles of Romans to Revelation. Jeremiah had prophesied such at:
Jeremiah 31:31, 32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Context Gives The Meaning of a Word Most of The Time. They Knew Turtle =Turtle-dove / Like Lead, Made, Maid, Weight, Wait, leaves Etc. Content Gives Meaning.
Verse 8 of Lev. 12 reads: And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.
There must be an error in translation or transcription because the TURTLE is an unclean offering. she shall bring 2 TURTLEDOVES, perhaps?
Insight777 "Moses brought the man made laws but Jesus brings truth." The laws of Moses were directly from God. Do not see how they can be consider man made.
When Jesus, the Son of God, was born he was without blemish, spot or blame and so was Mary, that is why God chose her. God never viewed his SON as needing a blood sacrifice on an altar to make him acceptable by God! No innocent sheep or bird had to be murdered so Jesus would be clean. The same goes for Mary! A baby sheep did not save mankind! Moses brought the man made laws but Jesus brings truth.
Leviticus Chapter 12 teaches that newborn babies should be quarantined for a period before being exposed to the public. The same teachings apply to women at certain times. The purification for newborns was practised in my rural community in earlier years.
1-7 I believe this is the Grace and Glory of God that we should learn by the law; and 8 to make it as easy as possible for us to abide by or in the law.
These are two of the scriptures I found:
"And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, The LORD give thee seed of this woman for the loan which is lent to the LORD. And they went unto their own home." 1 Samuel 2:20 KJV
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." Leviticus 12:2 KJV
There are some other scripture also that reference seed as just being of a man, however biologically a seed in futile soil will grow to its full potential given the right environment and a seed of a woman will develop into another human being (unborn child).
This chapter details the requirements for time set aside for women following childbirth. They basically are considered unclean for as long as they continue to have a blood flow from giving birth. This usually is about 6 weeks, sometimes longer.
Although I do not see why the time of purification was longer for a female baby versus a male. But God has His reasons here.
God is consistent in determining that contact with blood is unclean (unless you are a priest offering a blood sacrifice).
I do think that God was giving this ordinance as a protection for the woman and her baby. They were to basically be secluded from the community during this time to avoid touching any holy thing or from anyone touching them and becoming unclean. What this ordinance allows for is time. Time for the Mom and baby to bond and get a good start on breastfeeding and infant care. The mother is the one who takes care of the baby during this time.
They both are in a vulnerable state for becoming ill, overtired, and stressed. Knowing that, as a mother, you don't need to overexert yourself with affairs other than caring for yourself and baby (and other young children in her care). A mother's body needs time to heal and regain strength and vitality. Childbirth takes a lot out of the mother and is stressful for the baby. Being able to repose in a calm environment away from the hustle and bustle of community life is a good thing for both mother and baby.
Sometimes it is too easy to see God's strictness in giving such laws, but I see in this His mercy and care for mothers and babies. He wanted to be sure they get off to a good start. The fact that He designed it that the mother continues to have a blood flow for the time frames listed is a physical reminder of the need to slow down, put first things first. There will be many more days for the woman to be considered "clean" and welcomed into the assembly than the days of being "unclean". God gave women down time. Yes!
Thank you for taking the time to answer my 2 questions.
1) You mention that the commandment at Leviticus 12:3 was a "suggestion". When the Law was give to Israel, they made a covenant between themselves and God. Please read Exodus 34:3-8. Notice specifically
Exodus 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people ALL THE WORDS of the LORD, and ALL THE JUDGMENTS: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, ALL THE WORDS which the LORD hath said will we do."
That does not sound like a "suggestion" but a command - an order. Jewish people have thus very meticulously made certain to circumcise their children. Moses was almost killed by the LORD because he had not circumcised his son. Please read Exodus 4:24-26. That seems to me that the LORD takes circumcision very, very seriously. In fact, in the first century, even believing Jews believed that a believer in the Messiah must be circumcised to be saved.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED after the manner of Moses, YE CANNOT BE SAVED."
2) You mention that the first century Church followed the 10 commandments.
I do agree that they did follow 9 of those commandments. They are re-iterated in the New Testament or Covenant set up by Jesus through his blood mentioned at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Luke 22:20. However, nowhere do the Apostles every tell the Church, in clear words, "remember to keep the sabbath". Could you provide me 1 verse where an apostle clearly says to keep the sabbath - that actual word "sabbath" being used? In fact, Paul says the opposite at Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:10.
3) Now to answer your question. The apostles did not ever say that they obeyed the "10" commandments. They said that they obeyed the commandments. Those would be the commandments of the New Testament given by Jesus Christ through his Apostles via the letters of Romans to Revelation.
I welcome your thoughts again.
Good day to you, Dan.
Your 1st question:
1. Did God make a mistake when he created a request (not a commandment) to circumcise?
No, God did not make a mistake. It was a request, per the scripture below:
Leviticus 12:1
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," 2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying," and continued on....3And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
God said to Moses SPEAK to the children of Israel! This circumcision was a REQUEST at that time. It was not a commandment in the same sense as a commandment in God's 10 Commandments. VERY IMPORTANT distinction!
Your second question:
You ask why did the church of the 1st century change God's request of circumcision. Because it wasn't one of God's 10 commandments.
The apostles believed and followed God's 10 commandments, and they did not change any of God's 10 Commandments!
Here is apostle John stating that fact:
1 John 2:3
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
Now Brother Michael, please answer one question for me: Do you believe that the apostles were wrong in following and keeping God's 10 Commandments?
I await your answer Brother.
God Bless
I quote your words: "To say that the 10 Commandments are no longer valid, is to say that God made a mistake when he created the 10 Commandments!"
Did God make a mistake when he created the commandment to circumcise at
Leviticus 12:3 "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised,"
Why, then, did the first century Church change that commandment of God and say that it is not necessary to get circumcised in Acts 15?
Please, if you could answer, specifically, my 2 questions above, I would appreciate it.
Thank you for your time.
Good day.
You and others here are confusing and trying to complicate the issue....by trying to mix in the old ceremonial laws into the 10 Commandments.
Below you state:
Do you keep God's commandments by getting circumcised as per Leviticus 12:3?
Do you keep God's commandments and dwell in booths for seven days every year as per Leviticus 23:42?
Do you make fringes on the border of your garments as per God's commandment at Numbers 15:38?
Do you go up to Jerusalem three times a year as per God's commandment at Exodus 23:17?
God's 10 Commandments DO NOT include any of the above listed old testament ceremonial laws.
Brother Michael: Do you believe this scripture verse below spoken by Jesus?
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
God bless
Thank you for your response. Yes, we both agree that we must obey God's commandments and remain faithful until death to inherit the blessings. Where we don't, perhaps, see eye to eye is what are the commandments of God today.
Do you keep God's commandments by getting circumcised as per Leviticus 12:3?
Do you keep God's commandments and dwell in booths for seven days every year as per Leviticus 23:42?
Do you make fringes on the border of your garments as per God's commandment at Numbers 15:38?
Do you go up to Jerusalem three times a year as per God's commandment at Exodus 23:17?
If you answer no, it seems to me that you don't, after all, obey God's commandments. Jesus and the Apostle John did not say, "If you obey the 10 commandments", but rather, "If you obey the commandments" (all the commandments). The question arises, though, which commandments?
I would suggest the commandments of the New Covenant (or Testament) found in the portion of our Bibles called the New Testament.
As for Matthew 5:17-18, please note one important point - it says till all be fulfilled. The purpose of the law was fulfilled when Christ offered up his perfect life in sacrifice. Then, it was done away with. Notice:
Galatians 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law (a schoolmaster), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore THE LAW WAS our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But AFTER that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law).
That's why Jesus also said at the parallel account of Matthew 5:17-18 found at Luke 16:16.
Luke 16:16 "The LAW and the prophets WERE UNTIL JOHN: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
Then, Jesus set up the New Covenant.
Luke 22:20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
I welcome your further thoughts.
Good day, Vince.
Thank you for your comments. I was wanting to respond specifically to your comment, "I guess they think Christ died on the cross so we can be Lawless."
No, I do not believe that Jesus died for me so that I could be lawless. I do want to obey God's Laws. However, what has God commanded me to do? Would you suggest that I be circumcised so as to keep God's Law recorded at Leviticus 12:3? Why would I do that when the Apostles decided in Acts 15 that I need not be circumcised in order to serve God.
So, what do I obey. As a Christian, I obey the instructions that the Apostles gave to the first-century Church in the epistles from Romans to Revelation. They never tell me to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised or keep the festivals of Israel. In fact, they tell me the opposite:
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Galatians 4:10 "Ye observe days (sabbaths), and months (lunar month), and times (festivals), and years (sabbatical). I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
I obey the New Testament made between God and the Church of God via the mediator Jesus Christ since I am a Christian. I do not obey the Old Testament made between God and ancient Israel via the mediator Moses. I am not an Israelite.
Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13.
Notice that the Bible is separated into 2 portions - the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus inaugurated the New Testament with his shed blood. See Luke 22:20. These are the laws that I obey - God's laws for Christians in the New Testament.
I kindly invite your comments.
Good day.
Thank you for your comments.
You quoted Exodus 20:10 to say that we must observe the sabbath. However, you quoted from the Old Testament given to the ancient nation of Israel. Could you provide me a verse from the New Testament which commands the Church to keep the Sabbath? If not, why not? Why would the Apostles never instruct or remind the Christian Church to keep the sabbath if it was that important?
You also quoted Malachi 2:6 that God never changes. But, then why did God change the law of circumcision? The Old Testament said you must be circumcised - a commandment of God at Leviticus 12:3. But, in the New Testament, we are told that circumcision is not necessary. See Galatians 5:2. Also, why does Hebrews 7:12 say the the priesthood was changed? I thought you said that God never changes. In the Old Testament, the priesthood was Levitical but in the New Testament, the priesthood is according to the order of Mechizedek - another change of God. See Hebrews 7:11.
The Apostle Paul, at Galatians 4:10, scolds the Galatians for keeping the Old Testament rituals. The brackets are mine.
Galatians 4:10
"Ye observe (sabbath) days, and (lunar) months, and (festivals) times, and (sabbatical) years."
No wonder the Apostle Paul asks the question at:
Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the (Mosaic Old Testament) law, do ye not hear the law?"
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
I welcome your comments, Bridget.
Good day.
I would suggest that the "commandments" referred to in 1 John 5:2, 3 are not the 10 commandments nor the Mosaic Law commandments. If that were so, then Christians would be obligated to circumcise their children as per God's commandment at Leviticus 12:3. The New Testament said that circumcision is not required at Acts 15. Yet, that was a commandment of God. If we are to obey all God's commandments, then why do we not go up to Jerusalem three times a year as was commanded by God's commandment at Deuteronomy 16:16. Why do we not stone adulterers and adulteresses as commanded by God at Leviticus 20:10. That was his commandment.
I would suggest that the "commandments" of God referred to at 1 John 5:2, 3 are the New Covenant commandments that were given to the Church through the Apostles via revelations such as to the Apostle Paul and inspiration as others wrote the New Testament - Romans to Revelation. In those instructions, we are never commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy nor to keep the kosher laws. In fact, we are commanded the opposite:
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Therefore, Christians do not obey the Old Covenant Mosaic Law given to ancient Israel but only to the New Covenant Laws given to the Church via the Apostles through the epistles of Romans to Revelation. Jeremiah had prophesied such at:
Jeremiah 31:31, 32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
There must be an error in translation or transcription because the TURTLE is an unclean offering. she shall bring 2 TURTLEDOVES, perhaps?
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