Are you saying that sinners should be punished to satisfy your need for vengeance ? Or why should you be good if the only punishment bad people suffer is death ? Is being ressurected to spend eternity with your God and your saviour not enough of a reward for you ? Do you want to be able to look down into hell and watch people suffer eternal torture , many of whom will have never had the chance to know the Truth through no fault of their own ? Children ? Mentally handicapped or mentally ill people ? Will that make the sacrifices that you have made in your life in order to spend eternity with The God of All Creation and His Son your Redeemer worth it to you ? GOD IS LOVE , HE HATES NO ONE ,HE LOVES EVERY ONE , HE IS KIND AND MERCY FULL TO EVERY ONE . Do you think He wants to see the ignorant tortured for ever ? He would be able to see that , do you think that would give Him pleasure ,HE SAYS : THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH , He says that . There are millions of people who have lived and we're loved by their God and didn't know any thing about Him ,He didn't love them any less because of their ignorance . They should defo go to a place of torture and misery for ever ,is that what you think ? I'm very glad that God is not like us . Sorry if I sound aggressive , I don't mean to , amongst the things I know about God : He is not cruel He loves all of His creation He is never unfair or cold hearted or vicious and He takes no pleasure in our suffering .I'm not a J . W. in case you are wondering .
The JWs brought in their elders to talk to me two days later. We discussed the same matter with our Bibles opened. They also spoke of death as sin's penalty (as you have) & that no other eternal fiery judgement awaited the unrepentant. So I asked, 'if you're preaching a salvation that ultimately finds one in the everlasting Presence of God, are you then saying that death is the only punishment for the ungodly?' They affirmed that.
I then asked, 'But if we all die & some are raised incorruptible to reign with Christ & God, what then is the judgement for sin & Christ rejection?' 'Only death', they said. 'So does it makes any sense that an innocent Jesus, God's Son, should suffer an horrible death for us, the apostles should willingly lay down their lives for the love of Christ & the Gospel, & countless others have not denied their Saviour, many walking joyfully to the stake of fiery death, just so that the sinner's present & final judgement rests only in the grave?' Those men arose & left.
If it wasn't for the fact that Jesus was my sin-Bearer, bringing me into a new & right relationship with the Godhead, and that eternal suffering was my certain destiny, then I would not be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ today - I would be quite satisfied to 'eat, drink & be merry', die a natural death without a Saviour, maybe raised up later for judgement & put to death again with no further consciousness in the grave. But when conviction came, I ran into the arms of a merciful Saviour in Heaven because I fled from the arms of a ruthless Satan awaiting his fiery destiny ( Revelation 20:10, 21:8). The Offence of the Cross is ceased if any other Gospel is preached that provides an easy road to indifferent sinners.
Thank you for those two sets of comments brother Earl. Briefly, in reference to those three verses from the OT, the thought that comes through from them (in our present subject), is that both David & Ezekiel spoke about "the lowest hell & the nether parts of the Earth". The grave or entombment of a body cannot support the meaning that these writers intended. 'Sheol' does have other meanings, but you have chosen the 'grave' as the consistent one (which I agree, is generally seen), whereas the 'nether parts of the Earth & lowest hell' clearly mean something deeper & more sinister than just the grave.
Leaving that aside, I'm back to my original story of the JW's visit to me, so I'll proceed without receiving an answer to my question. Firstly, the Gospel, which proclaims to all the results & benefits of Christ's Sacrifice, speaks to both the Father & to mankind.
God required it: for a Lamb must be slain to satisfy God, as 'payment by a life for a life'. Not only was His Anger appeased (= propitiation), but He could forgive us because His Son took upon Himself our sin & penalty securing our redemption & acceptance with the Father.
Man needed the Gospel: for there could be no other who could bear his sin, forgive us completely & present us faultless before the Father. So the repentant sinner was not only forgiven through Christ's Sacrifice but was also freed from the penalty that his sin rightfully deserved.
people are not lost because they lack knowledge. (That is what gnostics teach). People are lost because sin makes them enemies of God, like we once were. When we hear the gospel of Jesus, the Word is effective in giving us fait to believe. Some will accept this faith and others will reject it. Christ did die for all mankind, and His atonement was for all mankind, however, He did say that those who do not believe are condemned. He stated many times that hell is a place of punishment for those who are condemned for unbelief. I don't have the Scriptures handy, but perhaps that is something you can research on your own. I am heading off to bed. Have 10 yards of gravel arriving early in the morning and I have my work cut out for me raking it all out.
God's blessing to you. I understand that we will most likely not come to agreement on this. That is ok. We have both spoken our thoughts on this. I leave it in the hands of the Lord to sow us the truth in this matter. Good night.
Sister GiGI, According to scripture, all mankind IS DEAD (in trespasses), they have no life in them. Christ came and died to COVER the trespasses of ALL MANKIND. He was resurrected so ALL MANKIND could have his life.
All mankind HAS BEEN REDEEMED, and their life is HID with CHRIST.
Colossians 3:3 For ye (all mankind) are dead and your life is HID with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if the gospel be HID, it is HID to them that are lost.
Mankind is SAVED, they can not lose their salvation, they can not go to hell, their SAVED.
Their lost because of lack of knowledge.
The gospel is bringing this knowledge to mankind.
God will cause them to repent, cause them to believe, cause them to have faith, cause them to love, ect., etc., because it his LIFE IN YOU. Of yourself you can do nothing.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Man has no knowledge of this.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (his life) that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure (Because it's HIS LIFE).
Hello again, Earl, I affirm what Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 as another example of what was considered the gospel taken to the world for salvation.
When speaking with someone about the gospel, I ask the person to tell me what they know about Jesus and salvation. And then I know what to tell them to urge them to be saved through Jesus.
I think it is good to ask others what they think is the gospel message. It drives us to Thank the Word to review what Paul and Peter said it was. Thank you for asking. You are welcome to relay to me what you say the gospel is, if you wish.
Brother Ronald. Those (CHOSEN) have their part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection). The chosen want be in the second resurrection.
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection of the dead (we are dead in our trespasses, sinful flesh) ....
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore (they died the first death, their life for the life of Christ), for they are equal unto the angel; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it (the SEED) a body as it has pleased him, and to every SEED his (CHRIST'S) own body.
The chosen are called to be priest, under their High Priest, Christ, in the kingdom on earth, when all other flesh has been resurrected, to judgement.
Jeremiah 51:19-23
Isaiah 65:12-17
Isaiah 66:18-24
The above scriptures, and others not listed, is the white throne judgement.
Brother Ronald, Revelation is signified. The lake of fire REPRESENTS SOMETHING.
The first and death death REPRESENTS SOMETHING.
Since there is a second death, there has to also be a first death.
The chosen take part in the first death ( John 12:25) while they still have breath in their nostrils.
In Revelation 9:18 The third are killed (they die for Christ's life as Christ died to give you his life) by fire and brimstone. IN CHRIST (also Revelation 8)
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Ezekiel 5:2-4 This is the same third described in Revelation 9:18 and Zechariah 13:9
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity, He that killeth (teaches truth) with the sword (the word) must also be killed with the sword (the word).
You are in the lake of fire, being purified and destroyed at the same time.
Earl Actually according to the young s analytical concordance there are four different meanings biblically for hell,
sheol unseen state, hades unseen world, gehenna valley of hinnom the fire that never goes out and to send to tartarus.
There are many words translated to english that have different understanding in the original texts. That being satd the translators still did a phenomenal piece of work!
Earl Apparently what you are saying is that God told you what the kingdom really is and nobody else is correct in there thinking or belief or what they've been taught concerning the scripture. So O.K. God Bless!
Thank you, Chris, for responding. I just looked up what the early church taught about hell, and it is aligned with your thinking and mine. Those martyrs that followed right after the apostles, having been appointed as overseers (bishops) by the apostles or by one that the apostles had appointed, taught the doctrine of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and punishment. This is what Jesus saves us from (sin, death, hell, and the evil one) along with what He saves us to (justification before God, forgiveness of sin, resurrection of our bodies to immortality, and communion with God for eternity. This stance has been affirmed by the church through the centuries in both Catholic and Protestant sects. There have always been those who teach as Earl does, but these teachings have been routinely denounced through the church age as error.
It is good to hear from you. You have such a solid take on issues and we all need to such perspectives.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Heb. sheol) .....
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest hell (Heb. sheol).
Ezekiel 31:15 Then said the Lord God, In the day when he went down to the grave (Heb. sheol) I caused a mourning, I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nation shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell (Heb. sheol) with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell (Heb. sheol) with him unto to them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
These verse in Ezekiel is talking about Pharaoh and his army, Verse 15 says he went to the grave (sheol), but verses 16 and 17 says he went down to hell (sheol).
The same word can not we translated as two meaning, when it's describing the same event.
Brother Chris, the wages of sin is death and the grave. Our sin, most of which, is unbelief, causes death, and when we are dead we cannot bring glory to our creator. Christ died and was resurrected to restore this condition. Christ overcomes sin in our lives, therefore at some point in time, death will be destroyed. Those called out in this age are coming to this knowledge. Those not called out in this age will be resurrected back to their flesh and brought to truth.
Luke 16:26 The gulf that can't be passed over is death and the grave, locked in prison.
Matthew 5:25-26 In this scripture our (flesh) is the adversary to God (Spirit) if we don't agree with Him, he delivers us to the judge (Christ, the words and chastisement), if we still don't agree, he delivers us to the officer (death) and cast us into prison (grave).
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan (flesh) shall be loosed out of prison (death and the grave), the gulf that couldn't be crossed.
Christ has the keys to death and the grave. His resurrection unlocked and destroyed death and the grave, we are restored to Sons of God. ( Job 38:7)( Revelation 22:16)
Job 17:13-16
Chris, for fifty plus years, I was taught and BELIEVED in a Literal place called heaven and a Literal place called hell.
God stopped me dead in my tracks and isolated me for five plus years with his word and his Spirit, and taught me what the Kingdom of God actually is. It not a place, it's a person, Sons of God, like Christ himself.
All of creation are brothers and sisters, of an in CHRIST, and at God's appointed time, each and everyone with be delivered, By CHRIST, into the Kingdom of God.
Brother Earl. As you've noticed, I don't often respond to your comments & to some others here, as our interpretation of Scriptures are noticeably divergent & I see no proper foundation on which to build a succinct discussion. And from this present thread, I note your reference to Sheol as pertaining to the grave, to which there is finality of human life. And true, if Sheol even carries the meaning of a Hell, there is little reference in the OT to any major suffering therein, though seems to indicate a place further than six feet below ground ( Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 86:13; Ezekiel 31:14-16).
But I would ask, as you clearly believe in the Gospel of our Lord, what do you believe that the death of Christ accomplished? And this question pertains to what God requires & also to the benefit of mankind.
Why I ask this supposedly simplistic question is because this matter came up some years ago when a couple of folk calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, spoke to me about the wonderful Paradise & freedom of suffering that awaits all men - & wouldn't I want to be a part of it? This matter soon progressed to a person's death & subsequent resurrection to enjoy this bounty from God. And this further progressed to the reality of Hell, to which they clearly don't subscribe to. And ultimately they stated that all the righteous ones (presumably those who followed Jehovah's Laws) would live in this paradise, whilst those who refused Him, would remain in the grave. I took them to task on this belief & they finally left without answer.
Without sharing the full matter here, I wonder if you see anything credible in that discussion, but especially, what did Christ's death accomplish, towards God & to man? And btw, Luke 16:26 was the Lord's Words, not man's.
Brother Adam, you are right there are no CONTRADICTIONS in God's Word.
You believe God's word teaches HELL, yet:
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Have any of God's prophecies not COME TO PASS.
The doctrine of HELL contradicts this prophecy. If the word Hell was misapplied in translation and the word GRAVE applied correctly, then you no longer have a contradiction.
Brother Adam, here is two more scriptures that have the Hebrew word, sheol.
Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol): for he shall receive me. Selah.
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol)...
I wonder why the translators didn't translated the Hebrew word, sheol, into the word HELL, in the above scriptures. Probably it would have destroyed their HELL doctrine.
Hello, there is no contradiction in the Bible. The Bible is already translated accurately. Maybe if you learned more about the translation process that could answer some of your concerns. A word having more than one use or application is normal, and doesn't automatically mean its mistranslated. There is one love in English and 4 in Greek- does that mean it's automatically wrong? I think some false assumptions are being made based about this misunderstanding and I don't believe it is true. Genuine open questions about God's Word is good, but is it profitable to publically try to discredit the Bible?
Hi Adam This is I read biblically concerning heaven carefully starting Genesis 1:6-8 verse 6 and God said let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters and let the dry land appear.
Verse 7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the
waters which were above the firmament and it was so.
Verse 8 And God called the firmament heaven and the evening and morning were the second day.
Verse 9 And God said Let the waters under the firmament be gathered into one place and let the dry land appear. So biblically when we jump in the air we are in heaven[ this is translated shamayim which means things heaved up or lifted up things] when an air plane flies biblically its in heaven. Then you have the heavenlies Ephesians 1:3 where it
states we have been blessed with spiritual blessings in Heavenly places in Christ. Also Ephesians 1:20 Christ is seating in the heavenlies on Gods right hand.
An interesting point is the most high powered telescopes looking into the heavens have found massive balls of water larger than earth floating as far out as they can see which is whet Genesis says. Gods word doesn't miss a beat . Hell , gehenna and sheol is another discussion.
Hello, thank you for your explanation. I'm not sure where you get the source of your information, but it sounds like something you heard or read added doubt in your mind about the validity of the Bible translation. I personally do not believe your interpretation. The Bible is the most scrutinized document in world history and just the KJV took a team of experts years to complete- word for word deep research. It wasn't rushed and it wasn't man's own opinion as you suggested. I trust in God's word and the experts He allowed to translate it, over 1 man's counter opinion. The Bible is already translated accurately and it says 'hell'. There are also many other translations people can use as a basis of comparison and they also say 'hell'. Maybe you're just uncomfortable with that English word, but whatever it's called, the Bible already described it enough to where we still know what it means, such as through these verses: Link
Some find something they don't like in the Bible then try to re-translate a word to get its synonyms, then cherry pick one of those abd claim that it 'really' means this other definition. This could be done with the English language too. For instance, I just used the word 'claim'. If someone didn't like that sentence they could suggest it was talking about mining claims. Most English words have alternate meanings that can be used in different contexts. So, I believe that's what you have done with sheol and hell. See, the Bible already described it: lake of fire, fire and brimstone, everlasting punishment, fire that shall never be quenched.
So, you don't even need the word 'hell' to still know what it means through the other description. Some are uncomfortable with hell and don't want it to be true and try very hard to try to reinterpret the Bible. I hope that's not the case here. God bless.
Brother Adam, in the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated 31 times as hell, and 31 times as grave.
The two translations, hell and grave, don't come close to the same meaning. Why didn't the translators, translate the word sheol as grave every time or hell every time.
It's easy to see sheol means grave from other teachings in the Old Testament and New, death was punishment, and sheol, the grave (the place the body goes after death).
Do yo believe Jesus went to hell when he died, or did he lay in the grave waiting for the Father to resurrect him.
Man teaches if you go to hell ( Luke 16:26) there a gulf that keeps you from coming out, either way you try to make this fit into mans teaching, it contradicts itself. If Jesus went to hell, according to man he would still be there. If he lay in the grave, then sheol translated as hell is mistranslated, and should have been translated grave. This would also mean the rich man lay in the grave instead of going to hell.
Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol), neither will you suffer you Holy One to see corruption.
Maybe the translators were pushing their own beliefs. Grievous wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.
Maybe this was revealed to John when he wrote Revelation and said what would happen if you added or took away from God's word.
"Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL. One would assume that if there were such a place of torture for sin, the prophets would have never cease warning people. Yet not one word concerning a place called Hell. Likewise not one mention of a place of eternal bliss, called heaven."
I'm trying to wrap my mind around your comment, because clearly the Bible does talk about hell. It uses the word 'hell' in both the Old and New Testament as well as other synonyms, such as in Mark 9:48.
This fact can also be verified through a quick search:
The meaning hasn't changed through time either. For instance, man didn't suddenly invent the word 'hell' after a certain point of time.
Since a quick search confirms the Bible has always used the word 'hell', so is it possible you meant something else? Since it does not sound like a true statement, can you please explain what you mean by, "Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL."?
I agree with you there Earl , we start out as empty vessels . We are not naturally inclined to goodness , we can see this when people are left without any rules , legal or moral . Many people have lived their lives without ever having had the chance to know the Truth through no fault of their own . I cannot believe that they will spend eternity being tortured for their ignorance .God is love and I do not believe that He sanctions the eternal torture of the ignorant and I don't understand why anyone would believe this . You and others on here have helped me very much and I still have a lot to learn , this site is fab but God is in the Bible and it should be our first and main source of information . Ecclesiastes Ch 3 , V 10-22 . Much love to you in Christ .
Life and love and peace then the only thing left for God to do is I'll wait, but unless you come back to me my hands are
tied. Romans 1:21-23 man walks away God is, Jesus Christ in the gospels walked and worked the works of God
for all those with one condition they had to believe and even then he helped there unbelief. The only time he didn't do
many mighty works was in his own home town because they didn't believe. John 3:16 speaks loudly.
The JWs brought in their elders to talk to me two days later. We discussed the same matter with our Bibles opened. They also spoke of death as sin's penalty (as you have) & that no other eternal fiery judgement awaited the unrepentant. So I asked, 'if you're preaching a salvation that ultimately finds one in the everlasting Presence of God, are you then saying that death is the only punishment for the ungodly?' They affirmed that.
I then asked, 'But if we all die & some are raised incorruptible to reign with Christ & God, what then is the judgement for sin & Christ rejection?' 'Only death', they said. 'So does it makes any sense that an innocent Jesus, God's Son, should suffer an horrible death for us, the apostles should willingly lay down their lives for the love of Christ & the Gospel, & countless others have not denied their Saviour, many walking joyfully to the stake of fiery death, just so that the sinner's present & final judgement rests only in the grave?' Those men arose & left.
If it wasn't for the fact that Jesus was my sin-Bearer, bringing me into a new & right relationship with the Godhead, and that eternal suffering was my certain destiny, then I would not be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ today - I would be quite satisfied to 'eat, drink & be merry', die a natural death without a Saviour, maybe raised up later for judgement & put to death again with no further consciousness in the grave. But when conviction came, I ran into the arms of a merciful Saviour in Heaven because I fled from the arms of a ruthless Satan awaiting his fiery destiny ( Revelation 20:10, 21:8). The Offence of the Cross is ceased if any other Gospel is preached that provides an easy road to indifferent sinners.
Thank you for those two sets of comments brother Earl. Briefly, in reference to those three verses from the OT, the thought that comes through from them (in our present subject), is that both David & Ezekiel spoke about "the lowest hell & the nether parts of the Earth". The grave or entombment of a body cannot support the meaning that these writers intended. 'Sheol' does have other meanings, but you have chosen the 'grave' as the consistent one (which I agree, is generally seen), whereas the 'nether parts of the Earth & lowest hell' clearly mean something deeper & more sinister than just the grave.
Leaving that aside, I'm back to my original story of the JW's visit to me, so I'll proceed without receiving an answer to my question. Firstly, the Gospel, which proclaims to all the results & benefits of Christ's Sacrifice, speaks to both the Father & to mankind.
God required it: for a Lamb must be slain to satisfy God, as 'payment by a life for a life'. Not only was His Anger appeased (= propitiation), but He could forgive us because His Son took upon Himself our sin & penalty securing our redemption & acceptance with the Father.
Man needed the Gospel: for there could be no other who could bear his sin, forgive us completely & present us faultless before the Father. So the repentant sinner was not only forgiven through Christ's Sacrifice but was also freed from the penalty that his sin rightfully deserved.
people are not lost because they lack knowledge. (That is what gnostics teach). People are lost because sin makes them enemies of God, like we once were. When we hear the gospel of Jesus, the Word is effective in giving us fait to believe. Some will accept this faith and others will reject it. Christ did die for all mankind, and His atonement was for all mankind, however, He did say that those who do not believe are condemned. He stated many times that hell is a place of punishment for those who are condemned for unbelief. I don't have the Scriptures handy, but perhaps that is something you can research on your own. I am heading off to bed. Have 10 yards of gravel arriving early in the morning and I have my work cut out for me raking it all out.
God's blessing to you. I understand that we will most likely not come to agreement on this. That is ok. We have both spoken our thoughts on this. I leave it in the hands of the Lord to sow us the truth in this matter. Good night.
All mankind HAS BEEN REDEEMED, and their life is HID with CHRIST.
Colossians 3:3 For ye (all mankind) are dead and your life is HID with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if the gospel be HID, it is HID to them that are lost.
Mankind is SAVED, they can not lose their salvation, they can not go to hell, their SAVED.
Their lost because of lack of knowledge.
The gospel is bringing this knowledge to mankind.
God will cause them to repent, cause them to believe, cause them to have faith, cause them to love, ect., etc., because it his LIFE IN YOU. Of yourself you can do nothing.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Man has no knowledge of this.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (his life) that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure (Because it's HIS LIFE).
When speaking with someone about the gospel, I ask the person to tell me what they know about Jesus and salvation. And then I know what to tell them to urge them to be saved through Jesus.
I think it is good to ask others what they think is the gospel message. It drives us to Thank the Word to review what Paul and Peter said it was. Thank you for asking. You are welcome to relay to me what you say the gospel is, if you wish.
I will simply refer you to what Peter preached in Acts 2:22-39 as a great account of the gospel that was preached after Pentecost. This I believe.
God Bless You!
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection of the dead (we are dead in our trespasses, sinful flesh) ....
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore (they died the first death, their life for the life of Christ), for they are equal unto the angel; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it (the SEED) a body as it has pleased him, and to every SEED his (CHRIST'S) own body.
The chosen are called to be priest, under their High Priest, Christ, in the kingdom on earth, when all other flesh has been resurrected, to judgement.
Jeremiah 51:19-23
Isaiah 65:12-17
Isaiah 66:18-24
The above scriptures, and others not listed, is the white throne judgement.
The first and death death REPRESENTS SOMETHING.
Since there is a second death, there has to also be a first death.
The chosen take part in the first death ( John 12:25) while they still have breath in their nostrils.
In Revelation 9:18 The third are killed (they die for Christ's life as Christ died to give you his life) by fire and brimstone. IN CHRIST (also Revelation 8)
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Ezekiel 5:2-4 This is the same third described in Revelation 9:18 and Zechariah 13:9
Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity, He that killeth (teaches truth) with the sword (the word) must also be killed with the sword (the word).
You are in the lake of fire, being purified and destroyed at the same time.
God Bless You!
sheol unseen state, hades unseen world, gehenna valley of hinnom the fire that never goes out and to send to tartarus.
There are many words translated to english that have different understanding in the original texts. That being satd the translators still did a phenomenal piece of work!
It is good to hear from you. You have such a solid take on issues and we all need to such perspectives.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Heb. sheol) .....
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest hell (Heb. sheol).
Ezekiel 31:15 Then said the Lord God, In the day when he went down to the grave (Heb. sheol) I caused a mourning, I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nation shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell (Heb. sheol) with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell (Heb. sheol) with him unto to them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
These verse in Ezekiel is talking about Pharaoh and his army, Verse 15 says he went to the grave (sheol), but verses 16 and 17 says he went down to hell (sheol).
The same word can not we translated as two meaning, when it's describing the same event.
Luke 16:26 The gulf that can't be passed over is death and the grave, locked in prison.
Matthew 5:25-26 In this scripture our (flesh) is the adversary to God (Spirit) if we don't agree with Him, he delivers us to the judge (Christ, the words and chastisement), if we still don't agree, he delivers us to the officer (death) and cast us into prison (grave).
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan (flesh) shall be loosed out of prison (death and the grave), the gulf that couldn't be crossed.
Christ has the keys to death and the grave. His resurrection unlocked and destroyed death and the grave, we are restored to Sons of God. ( Job 38:7)( Revelation 22:16)
Job 17:13-16
Chris, for fifty plus years, I was taught and BELIEVED in a Literal place called heaven and a Literal place called hell.
God stopped me dead in my tracks and isolated me for five plus years with his word and his Spirit, and taught me what the Kingdom of God actually is. It not a place, it's a person, Sons of God, like Christ himself.
All of creation are brothers and sisters, of an in CHRIST, and at God's appointed time, each and everyone with be delivered, By CHRIST, into the Kingdom of God.
But I would ask, as you clearly believe in the Gospel of our Lord, what do you believe that the death of Christ accomplished? And this question pertains to what God requires & also to the benefit of mankind.
Why I ask this supposedly simplistic question is because this matter came up some years ago when a couple of folk calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, spoke to me about the wonderful Paradise & freedom of suffering that awaits all men - & wouldn't I want to be a part of it? This matter soon progressed to a person's death & subsequent resurrection to enjoy this bounty from God. And this further progressed to the reality of Hell, to which they clearly don't subscribe to. And ultimately they stated that all the righteous ones (presumably those who followed Jehovah's Laws) would live in this paradise, whilst those who refused Him, would remain in the grave. I took them to task on this belief & they finally left without answer.
Without sharing the full matter here, I wonder if you see anything credible in that discussion, but especially, what did Christ's death accomplish, towards God & to man? And btw, Luke 16:26 was the Lord's Words, not man's.
You believe God's word teaches HELL, yet:
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Have any of God's prophecies not COME TO PASS.
The doctrine of HELL contradicts this prophecy. If the word Hell was misapplied in translation and the word GRAVE applied correctly, then you no longer have a contradiction.
Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol): for he shall receive me. Selah.
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol)...
I wonder why the translators didn't translated the Hebrew word, sheol, into the word HELL, in the above scriptures. Probably it would have destroyed their HELL doctrine.
Psalms 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon Thee; let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the GRAVE (Heb. sheol).
Psalms 55:15 Let DEATH seize upon them, and let them go down quick into HELL (Heb. sheol), for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.
Two scriptures about the destination of the wicked; yet one goes to the GRAVE and the other goes to HELL. Both translated from the same word, sheol.
The WAGES of sin is DEATH, when you die you go to the grave (sheol).
Job 17:13 If I wait, the GRAVE (Heb. sheol) is mine house, I have made MY BED in the darkness.
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make MY BED in HELL (Heb. sheol) behold, You are there.
Same Hebrew word (sheol); YET Job makes his bed in the GRAVE, but King David makes his bed in HELL.
Do you not see a contradiction in the single word, sheol, being TRANSLATED having two different meanings, when they should mean the same thing.
Would you say both should have been translated GRAVE, or do you think both should have been translated HELL.
You will find the same thing in the New Testament, the Greek word, Hades, translated one half of the time GRAVE and one half the time HELL.
No wonder man is deceived.
God bless you.
Verse 7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the
waters which were above the firmament and it was so.
Verse 8 And God called the firmament heaven and the evening and morning were the second day.
Verse 9 And God said Let the waters under the firmament be gathered into one place and let the dry land appear. So biblically when we jump in the air we are in heaven[ this is translated shamayim which means things heaved up or lifted up things] when an air plane flies biblically its in heaven. Then you have the heavenlies Ephesians 1:3 where it
states we have been blessed with spiritual blessings in Heavenly places in Christ. Also Ephesians 1:20 Christ is seating in the heavenlies on Gods right hand.
An interesting point is the most high powered telescopes looking into the heavens have found massive balls of water larger than earth floating as far out as they can see which is whet Genesis says. Gods word doesn't miss a beat . Hell , gehenna and sheol is another discussion.
Some find something they don't like in the Bible then try to re-translate a word to get its synonyms, then cherry pick one of those abd claim that it 'really' means this other definition. This could be done with the English language too. For instance, I just used the word 'claim'. If someone didn't like that sentence they could suggest it was talking about mining claims. Most English words have alternate meanings that can be used in different contexts. So, I believe that's what you have done with sheol and hell. See, the Bible already described it: lake of fire, fire and brimstone, everlasting punishment, fire that shall never be quenched.
So, you don't even need the word 'hell' to still know what it means through the other description. Some are uncomfortable with hell and don't want it to be true and try very hard to try to reinterpret the Bible. I hope that's not the case here. God bless.
The two translations, hell and grave, don't come close to the same meaning. Why didn't the translators, translate the word sheol as grave every time or hell every time.
It's easy to see sheol means grave from other teachings in the Old Testament and New, death was punishment, and sheol, the grave (the place the body goes after death).
Do yo believe Jesus went to hell when he died, or did he lay in the grave waiting for the Father to resurrect him.
Man teaches if you go to hell ( Luke 16:26) there a gulf that keeps you from coming out, either way you try to make this fit into mans teaching, it contradicts itself. If Jesus went to hell, according to man he would still be there. If he lay in the grave, then sheol translated as hell is mistranslated, and should have been translated grave. This would also mean the rich man lay in the grave instead of going to hell.
Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol), neither will you suffer you Holy One to see corruption.
Maybe the translators were pushing their own beliefs. Grievous wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.
Maybe this was revealed to John when he wrote Revelation and said what would happen if you added or took away from God's word.
I just noticed your comment:
"Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL. One would assume that if there were such a place of torture for sin, the prophets would have never cease warning people. Yet not one word concerning a place called Hell. Likewise not one mention of a place of eternal bliss, called heaven."
I'm trying to wrap my mind around your comment, because clearly the Bible does talk about hell. It uses the word 'hell' in both the Old and New Testament as well as other synonyms, such as in Mark 9:48.
This fact can also be verified through a quick search:
Link
The meaning hasn't changed through time either. For instance, man didn't suddenly invent the word 'hell' after a certain point of time.
Since a quick search confirms the Bible has always used the word 'hell', so is it possible you meant something else? Since it does not sound like a true statement, can you please explain what you mean by, "Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL."?
God bless...