No, it's not compulsory to close your eyes, even as Jesus looked up to Heaven to pray to His Father (with open eyes): John 17:1. But if our eyes are closed, it does help to focus on the Lord & on what we're saying so we don't get distracted. Some people even kneel & clasp their hands as part of their approach before God & to maintain focus.
Who is an antichrist? Christ is a translation of the Greek word Christos which means anointed one. The Hebrew word is Mashiach translated Messiah which means the anointed one, the chosen one. One who God fixed for a specific purpose set apart to fulfill God's plan.
Jesus said many times that He/Him sent me, Matt. 10:40Mark 9:37Luke 10:16John 5:30 and many more times. Also, Jesus said He came down from heaven not to do His will but to do the will of Him who sent Him in John 6:38, and Jesus said this in John 6:35-40.
We see when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed not with oil but with the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Matt 3:16Mark 1:10Luke 3:22John 1:32, and John 3:34-36 Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit without measure. Peter confesses and puts clear the Messiah/Christ, and the miracles, wonders, and signs God did by Him Acts 2:22, also read 23-39.
"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit", manifest Greek word phanero; revealed, made known, 1 Timothy 3:16John 17:1-8. God gave His only begotten Son, God sent His Son who was come in the flesh, tempted as you or me, and the spirit of antichrist is denying that is true, John 3:161 John 4:32 John 1:7. Christ is not part of Jesus name it is a title, Jesus is the Messiah, Jesus is the Christ.
A liar is he who denies or says Jesus is not the Christ/Messiah, and he is an antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. If we deny the Son, we have not the Father but if we acknowledge the Son we have the Father also, 1 John 2:18-24. You must come to your own understanding not mine, with open mind, prayer, and the Holy Spirit guiding you, you will.
These verses about the antichrist paint a picture of a deceptive seducing spirit and the people that have been deceived, just like Eve 2 Cor. 11:3. My understanding of these verses does not refer to the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit that has come to be called the antichrist.
Are Named and Identified one in the same bcause Many of us see how The anti-christ Is named Identified in the Bible
Ezekiel 25:18 God has named, judged and sentenced to death when He say's He will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Start @ Ezekiel 28:12 The King of Tyrus is the example, he is also the dragon, the beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition in Revelation 17:8
John 17:12 identifies him as the one who is lost, the son of perdition.
perdition:Loss of the soul; eternal damnation.Hell.Utter ruin
Ephesians 4:4-6. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24.
I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, WHICH IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, he hath declared him. John 1:18.
God is spirit, Jesus came forth from that Spirit, and we are baptized by that spirit.
John 17:22-23. ppAnd the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Thanks Alex. I agree with parts of your comment, but if your belief is that Jesus mass produces gods like a factory equal to the one and only God, then no, that is not what I believe or is what the Bible says. This may not be your belief at all, but it is of others I've noticed on this forum so I'll explain...
Gen 26:4 is regarding the seed and lineage from Abraham. It's talking about people, not gods. He's giving countries to people, not gods, for example.
If the comment is referring to 'gods' as in Psalms 82:6, Acts 7:40, notice it uses lower case 'g'. The word God is not used in the same manner as the one true God uppercase, but plural lowercase, which indicates a metaphor for His followers having characteristics of His authority. Psalm 82:1 demonstrates the difference.
If believers can be metaphorically considered 'gods,' how much more is the One whom God has chosen and sent ( John 10:34-36)?
Before believers start running around assuming they're deities from these few select verses (exactly what satan wants), the scripture must also be balanced with the entire context of other scripture in God's Word, such as:
Rom 13:1-4 - calls followers the "minister of God", that all power comes from God, but all are subject to God's "higher powers".
The Epistle/Letter to the Romans teaches the reader to obey the "powers that be" in the world.
The Apostles did not believe Jesus taught them to obey the "powers that be"; as evidenced by the fact that they disobeyed them:
Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:28-29
It appears you are trying to marry the two gospels together; one must choose one or the other:
"...if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Corinthians 11:4
Jesus has prophesied that he will tell all the workers of iniquity (sinners) to depart from him:
"I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." Luke 13:27
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Luke 15:7
Jesus claims there are two distinct groups of human beings:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9
The world aka the "powers that be" aka workers of iniquity aka sinners only comprise one group.
The other group are the sheep who pray with Jesus: "thy will be done on earth" and "lead us not into temptation".
Psalm(s) 14 and 53 also speak of two distinct groups of human beings:
The "workers of iniquity" who eat up God's People as they eat up bread;
and "God's People" who are being eaten up like bread.
We don't sin with our mind and our flesh.
We have been commanded to love the LORD our God with all our heart, all our mind, all our strength, and all our soul.
He is able to keep us from sinning. He teaches us to ask him for his will.
Mark 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand (is not mine) to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as WE are.
The first seal involves a rider with a bow but no arrows. We need to read Daniel to see more specific descriptions of this "man of intrigue" who "through peace destroys many" and "divides the land for gain." He apparently is into the occult as he "understands dark sentences." It appears there are other clues about his character with the "Assyrian" in Isaiah; the descriptions of the fatal wound that occurs later in his career in Zechariah; and even some hints that are in Habakkuk as to his character; and those describing the "son of perdition" that describe both Judas Iscariot and Christ. (See also 2 Thessalonians 2:3; John 17:12).
In any event; there will be a period of illusory peace as verse 2 describes it being "taken from the earth." It wouldn't be all that surprising that for a short time the world is in such a state of shock from the Rapture/Resurrection that they are relatively submissive to the "man with the answers." It wouldn't be surprising if he promised not only world peace; but prosperity by eliminating all the nation's debt and introducing a worldwide currency such as the gold standard before the mark of the beast ( Dan. 11:43).
The red horse says nothing about armies or organized military campaigns. It has been said this is equivalent to "kingdom against kingdom" ( Matt. 24:7) indicating ethnic groups. It certainly could be the next stage or preliminary setup to the military conquests of Antichrist.
Even savage one on one combat in the end combined with famine and pestilence kills one fourth of the earth. Anyone who compares this to past events or doesn't think it is too bad compared to other judgments is seriously underplaying obvious meaning or just plain out of their minds. We may have foreshadowing now but once the birth pangs get started they continue to get worse with each wave. There is no more delay as Ezekiel 12 and Rev. 10:6 and other verses indicate.
Let's see what else God's Word has to say in regards to your snarky comment against Jesus.
A few verses before in 2 Peter 1:11 it says "Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Do you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior?
Do you know what "Lord" means?
The same old straw man fallacy shows up again that God the Son isn't God the Father, but no one is claiming that. This attack on Jesus is repeated so much it seems to fall into the disingenuous and lie territory.
God is powerful enough to do what you don't comprehend as a man. Whether you comprehend that or not doesn't change reality or the truth. The Bible says that in John 1 the 'word was God' and was there at the beginning, so do you believe it?
More of God's truth about God:
Luke 4:34 - "Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God."
Luke 4:12 after satan put Jesus to the test Jesus says "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."
Isaiah 7:14 - Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us"
Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD..."
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name..."
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Godhead:
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
John 1:18
God is we and us plural:
Genesis 1:26
If the Bible flat out said Jesus is God like it does would you believe it?
Where are the verses that say Jesus isn't God the Son? (none)
Where are the verses saying Jesus IS God the Son (above, numerous)
And where are the verses where Jesus verbally denied being God? (none)
Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 13:13 that there are three things that remain (abide) (continue forever): faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. So I think this is a good start to laying up our treasure in heaven. Pray for God to grow these in your life. Above all this, those who believe in Jesus receive the treasure of eternal life in heaven. Jesus said that this is eternal life, that they (believers) may know God (the Father) and Jesus, His Son. John 17:3.
Also, participating with the Holy Spirit to share the Gospel and bring others into Jesus' eternal kingdom by faith is laying up the treasure of people redeemed by Him through your testimony and example of faith.
Good Afternoon, Mishael. I hope you are doing well today.
I love reading your posts. You have such a simple and clear way of sharing your thoughts.
I have often read what you say about Jesus that He set aside His deity to become human. I think you are referring to Philippians 2:5-8 were Paul says:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God; did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death even the death on the cross." (NIV) (I don't know how to cut and paste the KJV, so you can refer to that if you wish.
This verse does not say that Jesus set aside His deity from His human person, nor that He emptied Himself of His deity as Jesus. It says He humbled Himself. I believe this verse refers to John 17:5 where Jesus said, "And now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." (NIV)
With these two passages in mind, my viewpoint is that Jesus did humble Himself by divesting Himself of this glory (outward manifestation of the essence of the Godhead) when He became a human being, but He did not change His essential nature from God into a human, as God cannot change Who He essentially is. But He did leave His glory He had with the Father from all of eternity past to take onto Himself a human nature, body, soul, mind, spirit, to become Jesus. He remained 100% God with the addition of 100% human nature to become forever the God-Man Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, Savior, Mediator, and King forever.
Taking on humanity to His divinity was what humbled the Son of God. We are so familiar with Jesus being "God with us" , one of us as to His humanity, that it is easy to forget that the Godhead possesses a transcendency that is beyond our humanity in granduer, majesty, power.
An interesting note in this chapter is in verse 14; where it is said that the world hated the Disciples. This is a departure from John 7:7 where He told them the opposite. Clearly; there was a change with understanding to the Apostles and whoever else stuck with Him; as they saw increasing resistance once miracles occurred and particularly when Christ got to the last weeks and months of His ministry when He was in a more public venue.
Verse 2 shows once again that saving faith or eternal life is given to all those given to Him (election); and verse 6 shows what we might call "perseverance of the saints". Verse 8 shows the RESULT of this that they have indeed "believed and received" them. The prayer in verse 9 further shows that the focus is not on the whole world but to believers.
Verse 15 and 16 asks His children to be kept from evil (or the evil one). The following verses (v. 17-20) basically talk about "sanctification"; with glorification in 21-24. The theme of unity also is evident; and once again verse 25 shows how the world doesn't know the Father but those to whom He has been sent know Him. Hence; our realization of truths comes from God initiating understanding. The chapter then discusses love between the Father and Christ and in His people.
We should always remember that there is a relationship; an intimate knowledge in the inner man between the Lord and individual believers. Especially in the light of our High Priest who suffered all things as we did but without sin ( Heb. 4:15). This is essentially a restoration of broken fellowship after Adam sinned; but also will lead to a superior state once we are in His presence than to where Adam was before he sinned. We will have an imperishable body; incorruptible; and without sin or the capacity to do so.
Adam asked, Direct Quote: "My question is: do you believe Jesus as the Son of God has any % of God the Father in Him? If so, what %?"
Now we who believe Christ has no beginning, we're in contrast with those who believe Jesus BECAME a son at the birth of Mary.
Here in 1 Corinthians 15:28. Paul states "THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL." This emphasizes CHRIST/EMANUEL/GOD WITH US is returning to his Glory he had with the Father before the beginning of the world! It echoes this;
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5.
( O FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF ) Is an amazing statement! We know God shares his Glory with NO MAN! 100% God!
1 Corinthians 15:28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL. suggests Christ is a 100% of God.
This chapter; and the following are part of a private discourse between Christ and the 12 Disciples and demonstrate what has been prophesied in both veiled and now clear language as to what would happen to Christ; who whould betray Him; and once again God's inseparable relation to Christ when He is glorified as well as His elect (or chosen as stated in verse 18).
It is clear that Judas Iscariot was also called AND chosen for the evil betrayal; which was prophesied in Psalm 41:9. This verse ALSO shows how Judas was a "close friend who He trusted". There was pain because of the betrayal for this reason despite the inevitability of it Jesus gave him the sop which was traditionally given to a guest of honor. (Verse 26). This is why we cannot make election or predestination a mere intellectual concept. If Christ could love someone who was to be the "son of perdition" ( John 17:2) then who are we to not love our enemies; and pray for those who despitefully use us? ( Matt. 5:44).
We also need to see how Jesus loved His own unto the end (verse 1). Jesus surely had other things that could preoccupy Him after the Passover meal. Instead; He decided to reassure His disciples who still didn't get much of what He was saying. Verse 36 was the first hint that Peter would be restored after his fall into denial of Christ. He would die eventually and be with Christ. Here; he showed how being a servant was paramount in being a Godly example.
This was the culmination of what He had been saying for the last few years; and in a a few short days it would finally be clear to the Disciples what these concepts meant. Since all but one of the 12 would be martyred eventually; they had to strip themselves of any self reliance and follow the Master's footsteps. Divine help through the Spirit for all these things would soon arrive at Pentecost.
Hi Grae. I realize you've written to Adam, but if I may, I'll just briefly write this.
You've stated, "(your belief that Jesus is not God is) totally clear to me from my reading of the whole Bible." And you feel frustrated that folk believing as you do are barracked by those who don't. I don't sense that this happens. What I do see is that one side presents their belief & the other side presents their belief & that is up for discussion, as per these Discussion Pages. If you feel that these others are heavy-handed in their presentation, then they have presented Scriptures to show the Deity of Christ & hope that folk will use those Scriptures to argue their case.
I know Adam has presented a long list of references in the past, as I have also shared some. Has anyone even attempted to discuss those verses? One person did try to discuss John 1:1-14 with me, but conveniently changed the meaning that after Jesus was born into the World, God's Word came into Him. I've often presented one particular verse ( John 17:5): "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." And none have given their understanding of this verse.
So, this can be frustrating to us also. For me, I wonder, 'have folk missed reading this verse altogether; have they read it but have their own understanding or even changed it; or, will it shake their belief, so best avoid discussion? You've read the whole Bible, you write. How do you, one who doesn't believe in the Deity of Jesus, deal with John 17:5? I would really like to know, because if I were in your position, that verse alone would shake my long-held belief severely.
The purpose of it all, is to bring God's creation to TRUTH.
Creation is DECEIVED.
Sinful flesh (man) DIED ON THE CROSS; a NEW CREATION (Christ in you) arose.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ ....
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (Christ in you) that worketh both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery ....Christ IN YOU .....
John 17:23 I in THEM, and THOU in ME, that they may be PERFECT (Christ is the only one perfect) in one .....
Psalms 82:6 I have said, ye are gods, the children of the most high.
Philippians 1:29 For UNTO YOU it is GIVEN in the BEHALF of Christ, not only to BELIEVE on HIM (the word), but also to suffer for his sake.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God.
Why is creation WAITING?
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours (God's SONS, Christ and his brothers) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the kingdom SHALL BE the LORD'S.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the JUDGEMENT written, this HONOUR hath all his saints.
Romans 8:21 For the creature itself SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things have been subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be ALL in ALL.
Billions of people; dead and in the grave, are AWAITING the arrival of Christ and his brothers at the resurrection of the dead: to be brought to TRUTH.
Proverbs 16:6 By MERCY and TRUTH iniquity is purged .....
Yes, the 144,000 (signified not literal) is the Old Saints.... Mathew 27:52-53
They have already received (I AM the resurrection) the PROMISE (made perfect, Immortality, resurrected INTO the FORM OF CHRIST: Galatians 4:19)
1 Timothy 16:6 Who (Christ) ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light .....
Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good report through faith (of Christ), received not the promise (to be made perfect).
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (we will never see death), that they without us should not be MADE PERFECT (Christ is the ONLY ONE PERFECT).
Luke 46:40 ....but every one that IS PERFECT shall be as his MASTER.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they MAY BE PERFECT ......
Luke 16:19-26. The only passage that Jesus Himself talks about where a person goes after he dies. There is Heaven and Hell. I pray all will be saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10.
Luke 23:43
Acts 1:25; John 17:12 Judas Iscariot is the son of perdition. He went to his own place. Revelation 17:8
Isaiah 5:14
Romans 16:25-27
John 3:16 I pray many will be saved. Keep the Faith, trust only and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ. Nobody can save themselves. We give glory to God for He gave us a free gift, a gift of Grace, the grace of God that is available to all.
Hi Doug. Great Scriptures to show that Christ has come in the flesh - He is indeed the Son of God & the Son of Man. And as a Man, He was made "like unto his brethren" & as a Man "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". I would certainly never argue the humanity of Christ.
But interesting that you quoted 1 John 4:3, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." This is the wonderful Truth from John, about the spirits that influence men what to believe & proclaim (as the false prophets of verse 1 did). That spirit that does not confess that Christ has come in the flesh is the spirit of Satan (antichrist).
Some have glossed over these verses, but in the past, I felt compelled to consider, 'surely a spirit that does not confess Christ coming in the flesh, must be a different spirit that believes that Jesus was a real Person?' The spirits themselves believe Jesus was real, the Jews & Romans believed, even the Gnostics (about whom John was warning the believers), believed - there was no denial that there was a Man going around by the Name of Jesus & saying & doing all that He did. But these same Gnostics & others I've mentioned will never confess one thing. And that is, that Jesus came out from God to become a man. Because gnostics believe that Divinity cannot unite with the material, especially sinful flesh, therefore the incarnation is an impossibility. And so John issued the warning to try (test) the spirits (that by which these men spoke); that there is a spirit that denies that Jesus came down from Heaven into a body of flesh. John 3:13; John 17:5.
I believe all of those scriptures that Christ is one with God and the Father is in the Son. I also believe that we are one in God and Jesus, but we do not exchange names with them and call ourselves God or Jesus. Some verses ... John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be (one in us): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." I think when we use words that the Bible does not use it can complicate the scripture. Example: God the Son or God in the flesh. It is simpler to use the Son of God and ponder what that means. 2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. God dwells in us and walks in us, but we don't call ourselves "God in the flesh" just because he is in our flesh. Maybe a relevant point to consider concerning this topic is if we believe Jesus could have sinned.
I appreciate your response, Doug. I see that you do believe that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". But is our difference in understanding lie only in "what happened after the Word was (then) made flesh (i.e. His life in humanity)?" I think there is another important matter to look at before that, i.e. before Jesus was given God's Glory on Earth, where was He before His Coming?
So, this Word that was with God and was God ( John 1:1), was not only the Word uttered by God to create all things (v3), but in God's Wisdom & Plan, He gave His Word flesh (v14) - drawn from the Essence of God into humanity, & the disciples saw that this Glory which reflected from Him was that of the Father's only begotten Son (not first created, 'protokitises', but first born, 'prototokos': in relation to the first 'of its type in creation, of divinity & humanity as one'). At a previous time, someone else translated that verse to be, 'that Jesus then became God's Word' (i.e. Jesus came & then the Word placed into Him; rather than 'the Word came & was made human'). Herein is the problem.
Then when we look at John 17:5, we can see in Jesus' Prayer that He recalls to His Father about the Glory that He had with Him. This glory Jesus had to lay aside for the sake of becoming human ( Philippians 2:5-8). And in John 17:1-5, Jesus speaks to His Father about this Glory: that Jesus was in the throes of completing the Work of the Father, of bringing Glory to Him through it (v4), and now longs for God's Glory (which Jesus once had), to be granted back to Him (v5). Now exactly what this Glory entails, we're not told. But it would certainly reflect His Position within God's Person (seen in the verses cited), the task accomplished on Earth, & the Glory, Power & Victory emanating from the coming resurrection.
And the glory we've received: being in Christ as Christ is in God ( Col 3:3) - not gods, but sharing in all the goodness & vitality of the One Who is now our Father & Jesus our Brother.
Regarding John 17:5 : "Glorify thee with with thine own self" (Self). Creation is an extension of self. In this sense meaning, extend God's whole being (qualities, His Mind) unto Jesus. "which I had with thee before the world was.", meaning Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world. Jesus has nothing that does not come from God. The difference between us and Jesus is that He has nothing else. As I've previously stated, God created Jesus (Christ); Jesus did not create God.This is Their only difference. So, is Jesus God? No, in the sense that He didn't create the Creator. Yes, in the sense that He has everything of/from the Creator (Source) and thinks and responds and speaks ONLY what the Voice for God (Holy Spirit) communicates.
How does this fit into the idea of the Trinity? God Is. God is God, in His Kingdom, where nothing but perfect Love exists. No fear/hate (or even thoughts of fear and hate) can enter. His Kingdom is holy where perfect peace dwells. Nothing changes (no duality). Nothing there within or without can affect it. God's omnipotence can't be usurped. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Voice. Jesus is the Christ, APPEARING as man, our mediator. We need this mediator because without Him the distance between God and man would be too great for us to encompass and overcome. This Trinity is One even though they appear to have different functions. They are One BECAUSE They share a common purpose, and what shares a common purpose is the same.
A good way to describe the Trinity is this: The Trinity in It's oneness transcends the sum of it's parts. I perceive the same concerning the Sonship: God has only One Son. If all His creations are His sons, then everyone must be an integral part of the whole Sonship. And the Sonship in its Oneness transcends the sum of it's parts.
And may I be so bold as to say that God would be incomplete without us (His Creations).
Thanks Chris for your reply! I agree with the thought that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". I think the difference in beliefs is what happened when the in Word was made flesh. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I believe he was full of "grace and truth". He carried nature of God, but needed the grace of God and had to access it like we do. That is why he prayed, fasted, etc to resist temptation. Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. v 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: I believe he reflected his father at all times. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The following verse to me is interesting indicating that we have been given the glory that God gave him. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: A mystery I have: is when was he considered the begotten Son and when did that happen. Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. These thoughts are not all inclusive, but enough hopefully to clear any misunderstandings.
Hi Doug. All the Scriptures you've given are wonderful & indeed show Jesus Christ in His Humanity. I don't think anyone who believes in the deity of Christ could ever reject or even alter the meaning of those verses to suit some agenda. For so Jesus was: a Man on Earth & a Man in Heaven, now the mediator between God & men. But was He/is He just a Man?
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
Hello Ronald. If I might add my understanding to some of the Scriptural references you gave.
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.
Do you understand what it means to produce after their own kind?
God said let us make man in our image.
God is Spirit, if we are (Re)created in his image, we also become Spirit (God, in a glorified body, just like Christ)
Psalms 82:6 For I have said, Ye are gods, the children of the most high.
John 3:6 ... that which is born of Spirit (God) is Spirit (God).
John 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou Father, art in me, and I IN THEM ....
Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery ....Christ IN YOU .....
Romans 8:29 ....predestinate to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son ....
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God that worketh IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
You must be born again: do you understand what awaits us when we leave this body of flesh.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light ....
1 Corinthians 15:53 ...this mortal shall PUT ON immortality (Christ only hath immortality, we put on Christ).
God bless you.
Who is an antichrist? Christ is a translation of the Greek word Christos which means anointed one. The Hebrew word is Mashiach translated Messiah which means the anointed one, the chosen one. One who God fixed for a specific purpose set apart to fulfill God's plan.
Jesus said many times that He/Him sent me, Matt. 10:40 Mark 9:37 Luke 10:16 John 5:30 and many more times. Also, Jesus said He came down from heaven not to do His will but to do the will of Him who sent Him in John 6:38, and Jesus said this in John 6:35-40.
We see when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed not with oil but with the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Matt 3:16 Mark 1:10 Luke 3:22 John 1:32, and John 3:34-36 Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit without measure. Peter confesses and puts clear the Messiah/Christ, and the miracles, wonders, and signs God did by Him Acts 2:22, also read 23-39.
"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit", manifest Greek word phanero; revealed, made known, 1 Timothy 3:16 John 17:1-8. God gave His only begotten Son, God sent His Son who was come in the flesh, tempted as you or me, and the spirit of antichrist is denying that is true, John 3:16 1 John 4:3 2 John 1:7. Christ is not part of Jesus name it is a title, Jesus is the Messiah, Jesus is the Christ.
A liar is he who denies or says Jesus is not the Christ/Messiah, and he is an antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. If we deny the Son, we have not the Father but if we acknowledge the Son we have the Father also, 1 John 2:18-24. You must come to your own understanding not mine, with open mind, prayer, and the Holy Spirit guiding you, you will.
These verses about the antichrist paint a picture of a deceptive seducing spirit and the people that have been deceived, just like Eve 2 Cor. 11:3. My understanding of these verses does not refer to the beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit that has come to be called the antichrist.
God bless,
RLW
Ezekiel 25:18 God has named, judged and sentenced to death when He say's He will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Start @ Ezekiel 28:12 The King of Tyrus is the example, he is also the dragon, the beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition in Revelation 17:8
John 17:12 identifies him as the one who is lost, the son of perdition.
perdition:Loss of the soul; eternal damnation.Hell.Utter ruin
2 Thessalonians 2:3 The Son of Perdition
I would say the spirit.
Ephesians 4:4-6. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24.
I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, WHICH IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, he hath declared him. John 1:18.
God is spirit, Jesus came forth from that Spirit, and we are baptized by that spirit.
John 17:22-23. ppAnd the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Gen 26:4 is regarding the seed and lineage from Abraham. It's talking about people, not gods. He's giving countries to people, not gods, for example.
If the comment is referring to 'gods' as in Psalms 82:6, Acts 7:40, notice it uses lower case 'g'. The word God is not used in the same manner as the one true God uppercase, but plural lowercase, which indicates a metaphor for His followers having characteristics of His authority. Psalm 82:1 demonstrates the difference.
If believers can be metaphorically considered 'gods,' how much more is the One whom God has chosen and sent ( John 10:34-36)?
Before believers start running around assuming they're deities from these few select verses (exactly what satan wants), the scripture must also be balanced with the entire context of other scripture in God's Word, such as:
Rom 13:1-4 - calls followers the "minister of God", that all power comes from God, but all are subject to God's "higher powers".
John 17:3
James 4:7
1 Peter 5:6
Romans 13:1
Romans 12:1-2
etc.
God bless
Matthew 5:14,16, in context Matthew 5,
2Corinthians 1:3-5, 1Thessalonians 5:11,14, in context 1Thessalonians 5,
Hopefully these help with your question of why
The Apostles did not believe Jesus taught them to obey the "powers that be"; as evidenced by the fact that they disobeyed them:
Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:28-29
It appears you are trying to marry the two gospels together; one must choose one or the other:
"...if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Corinthians 11:4
Jesus has prophesied that he will tell all the workers of iniquity (sinners) to depart from him:
"I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." Luke 13:27
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Luke 15:7
Jesus claims there are two distinct groups of human beings:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9
The world aka the "powers that be" aka workers of iniquity aka sinners only comprise one group.
The other group are the sheep who pray with Jesus: "thy will be done on earth" and "lead us not into temptation".
Psalm(s) 14 and 53 also speak of two distinct groups of human beings:
The "workers of iniquity" who eat up God's People as they eat up bread;
and "God's People" who are being eaten up like bread.
We don't sin with our mind and our flesh.
We have been commanded to love the LORD our God with all our heart, all our mind, all our strength, and all our soul.
He is able to keep us from sinning. He teaches us to ask him for his will.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as WE are.
The first seal involves a rider with a bow but no arrows. We need to read Daniel to see more specific descriptions of this "man of intrigue" who "through peace destroys many" and "divides the land for gain." He apparently is into the occult as he "understands dark sentences." It appears there are other clues about his character with the "Assyrian" in Isaiah; the descriptions of the fatal wound that occurs later in his career in Zechariah; and even some hints that are in Habakkuk as to his character; and those describing the "son of perdition" that describe both Judas Iscariot and Christ. (See also 2 Thessalonians 2:3; John 17:12).
In any event; there will be a period of illusory peace as verse 2 describes it being "taken from the earth." It wouldn't be all that surprising that for a short time the world is in such a state of shock from the Rapture/Resurrection that they are relatively submissive to the "man with the answers." It wouldn't be surprising if he promised not only world peace; but prosperity by eliminating all the nation's debt and introducing a worldwide currency such as the gold standard before the mark of the beast ( Dan. 11:43).
The red horse says nothing about armies or organized military campaigns. It has been said this is equivalent to "kingdom against kingdom" ( Matt. 24:7) indicating ethnic groups. It certainly could be the next stage or preliminary setup to the military conquests of Antichrist.
Even savage one on one combat in the end combined with famine and pestilence kills one fourth of the earth. Anyone who compares this to past events or doesn't think it is too bad compared to other judgments is seriously underplaying obvious meaning or just plain out of their minds. We may have foreshadowing now but once the birth pangs get started they continue to get worse with each wave. There is no more delay as Ezekiel 12 and Rev. 10:6 and other verses indicate.
A few verses before in 2 Peter 1:11 it says "Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Do you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior?
Do you know what "Lord" means?
The same old straw man fallacy shows up again that God the Son isn't God the Father, but no one is claiming that. This attack on Jesus is repeated so much it seems to fall into the disingenuous and lie territory.
God is powerful enough to do what you don't comprehend as a man. Whether you comprehend that or not doesn't change reality or the truth. The Bible says that in John 1 the 'word was God' and was there at the beginning, so do you believe it?
More of God's truth about God:
Luke 4:34 - "Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God."
Luke 4:12 after satan put Jesus to the test Jesus says "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."
Isaiah 7:14 - Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us"
Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD..."
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name..."
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Godhead:
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
John 1:18
God is we and us plural:
Genesis 1:26
If the Bible flat out said Jesus is God like it does would you believe it?
Where are the verses that say Jesus isn't God the Son? (none)
Where are the verses saying Jesus IS God the Son (above, numerous)
And where are the verses where Jesus verbally denied being God? (none)
"I AM" John 8:56-59
John 10:30
John 8:19
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
John 17:5
John 17:21
Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 13:13 that there are three things that remain (abide) (continue forever): faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. So I think this is a good start to laying up our treasure in heaven. Pray for God to grow these in your life. Above all this, those who believe in Jesus receive the treasure of eternal life in heaven. Jesus said that this is eternal life, that they (believers) may know God (the Father) and Jesus, His Son. John 17:3.
Also, participating with the Holy Spirit to share the Gospel and bring others into Jesus' eternal kingdom by faith is laying up the treasure of people redeemed by Him through your testimony and example of faith.
I love reading your posts. You have such a simple and clear way of sharing your thoughts.
I have often read what you say about Jesus that He set aside His deity to become human. I think you are referring to Philippians 2:5-8 were Paul says:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God; did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death even the death on the cross." (NIV) (I don't know how to cut and paste the KJV, so you can refer to that if you wish.
This verse does not say that Jesus set aside His deity from His human person, nor that He emptied Himself of His deity as Jesus. It says He humbled Himself. I believe this verse refers to John 17:5 where Jesus said, "And now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." (NIV)
With these two passages in mind, my viewpoint is that Jesus did humble Himself by divesting Himself of this glory (outward manifestation of the essence of the Godhead) when He became a human being, but He did not change His essential nature from God into a human, as God cannot change Who He essentially is. But He did leave His glory He had with the Father from all of eternity past to take onto Himself a human nature, body, soul, mind, spirit, to become Jesus. He remained 100% God with the addition of 100% human nature to become forever the God-Man Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, Savior, Mediator, and King forever.
Taking on humanity to His divinity was what humbled the Son of God. We are so familiar with Jesus being "God with us" , one of us as to His humanity, that it is easy to forget that the Godhead possesses a transcendency that is beyond our humanity in granduer, majesty, power.
An interesting note in this chapter is in verse 14; where it is said that the world hated the Disciples. This is a departure from John 7:7 where He told them the opposite. Clearly; there was a change with understanding to the Apostles and whoever else stuck with Him; as they saw increasing resistance once miracles occurred and particularly when Christ got to the last weeks and months of His ministry when He was in a more public venue.
Verse 2 shows once again that saving faith or eternal life is given to all those given to Him (election); and verse 6 shows what we might call "perseverance of the saints". Verse 8 shows the RESULT of this that they have indeed "believed and received" them. The prayer in verse 9 further shows that the focus is not on the whole world but to believers.
Verse 15 and 16 asks His children to be kept from evil (or the evil one). The following verses (v. 17-20) basically talk about "sanctification"; with glorification in 21-24. The theme of unity also is evident; and once again verse 25 shows how the world doesn't know the Father but those to whom He has been sent know Him. Hence; our realization of truths comes from God initiating understanding. The chapter then discusses love between the Father and Christ and in His people.
We should always remember that there is a relationship; an intimate knowledge in the inner man between the Lord and individual believers. Especially in the light of our High Priest who suffered all things as we did but without sin ( Heb. 4:15). This is essentially a restoration of broken fellowship after Adam sinned; but also will lead to a superior state once we are in His presence than to where Adam was before he sinned. We will have an imperishable body; incorruptible; and without sin or the capacity to do so.
Actually i think it fits well.
Adam asked, Direct Quote: "My question is: do you believe Jesus as the Son of God has any % of God the Father in Him? If so, what %?"
Now we who believe Christ has no beginning, we're in contrast with those who believe Jesus BECAME a son at the birth of Mary.
Here in 1 Corinthians 15:28. Paul states "THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL." This emphasizes CHRIST/EMANUEL/GOD WITH US is returning to his Glory he had with the Father before the beginning of the world! It echoes this;
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5.
( O FATHER, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF ) Is an amazing statement! We know God shares his Glory with NO MAN! 100% God!
1 Corinthians 15:28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL. suggests Christ is a 100% of God.
God bless.
This chapter; and the following are part of a private discourse between Christ and the 12 Disciples and demonstrate what has been prophesied in both veiled and now clear language as to what would happen to Christ; who whould betray Him; and once again God's inseparable relation to Christ when He is glorified as well as His elect (or chosen as stated in verse 18).
It is clear that Judas Iscariot was also called AND chosen for the evil betrayal; which was prophesied in Psalm 41:9. This verse ALSO shows how Judas was a "close friend who He trusted". There was pain because of the betrayal for this reason despite the inevitability of it Jesus gave him the sop which was traditionally given to a guest of honor. (Verse 26). This is why we cannot make election or predestination a mere intellectual concept. If Christ could love someone who was to be the "son of perdition" ( John 17:2) then who are we to not love our enemies; and pray for those who despitefully use us? ( Matt. 5:44).
We also need to see how Jesus loved His own unto the end (verse 1). Jesus surely had other things that could preoccupy Him after the Passover meal. Instead; He decided to reassure His disciples who still didn't get much of what He was saying. Verse 36 was the first hint that Peter would be restored after his fall into denial of Christ. He would die eventually and be with Christ. Here; he showed how being a servant was paramount in being a Godly example.
This was the culmination of what He had been saying for the last few years; and in a a few short days it would finally be clear to the Disciples what these concepts meant. Since all but one of the 12 would be martyred eventually; they had to strip themselves of any self reliance and follow the Master's footsteps. Divine help through the Spirit for all these things would soon arrive at Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit has given you great insight to his word.
Our knowledge of God never ceases to grow as we spend time in his word.
1 Corinthians 2:9 ...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things God hath prepare for them that love him.
Job 38:7 When the MORNING STARS .....sang together ....
Revelation 22:16 ...I am .....the bright and MORNING STAR .....
Revelation 2:28 and I will give him the MORNING STAR ....
Psalms 82: ....ye are gods, the children of the most high .....
John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one.
God Bless YOU, his body!
You've stated, "(your belief that Jesus is not God is) totally clear to me from my reading of the whole Bible." And you feel frustrated that folk believing as you do are barracked by those who don't. I don't sense that this happens. What I do see is that one side presents their belief & the other side presents their belief & that is up for discussion, as per these Discussion Pages. If you feel that these others are heavy-handed in their presentation, then they have presented Scriptures to show the Deity of Christ & hope that folk will use those Scriptures to argue their case.
I know Adam has presented a long list of references in the past, as I have also shared some. Has anyone even attempted to discuss those verses? One person did try to discuss John 1:1-14 with me, but conveniently changed the meaning that after Jesus was born into the World, God's Word came into Him. I've often presented one particular verse ( John 17:5): "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." And none have given their understanding of this verse.
So, this can be frustrating to us also. For me, I wonder, 'have folk missed reading this verse altogether; have they read it but have their own understanding or even changed it; or, will it shake their belief, so best avoid discussion? You've read the whole Bible, you write. How do you, one who doesn't believe in the Deity of Jesus, deal with John 17:5? I would really like to know, because if I were in your position, that verse alone would shake my long-held belief severely.
Jesus Christ is the BODY of his Father; therefore he is 100 % God.
John 17:23 ...Thou in me ....
John 17:21 ...as thou Father art in me, and I in thee ....
God Bless YOU!
The purpose of it all, is to bring God's creation to TRUTH.
Creation is DECEIVED.
Sinful flesh (man) DIED ON THE CROSS; a NEW CREATION (Christ in you) arose.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ ....
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (Christ in you) that worketh both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery ....Christ IN YOU .....
John 17:23 I in THEM, and THOU in ME, that they may be PERFECT (Christ is the only one perfect) in one .....
Psalms 82:6 I have said, ye are gods, the children of the most high.
Philippians 1:29 For UNTO YOU it is GIVEN in the BEHALF of Christ, not only to BELIEVE on HIM (the word), but also to suffer for his sake.
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God.
Why is creation WAITING?
Obadiah 1:21 And saviours (God's SONS, Christ and his brothers) shall come on mount Zion to JUDGE the mount of Esau, and the kingdom SHALL BE the LORD'S.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the JUDGEMENT written, this HONOUR hath all his saints.
Romans 8:21 For the creature itself SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things have been subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD may be ALL in ALL.
Billions of people; dead and in the grave, are AWAITING the arrival of Christ and his brothers at the resurrection of the dead: to be brought to TRUTH.
Proverbs 16:6 By MERCY and TRUTH iniquity is purged .....
BELIEF will judge UNBELIEF.
God Bless YOU, his body.
Yes, the 144,000 (signified not literal) is the Old Saints.... Mathew 27:52-53
They have already received (I AM the resurrection) the PROMISE (made perfect, Immortality, resurrected INTO the FORM OF CHRIST: Galatians 4:19)
1 Timothy 16:6 Who (Christ) ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light .....
Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good report through faith (of Christ), received not the promise (to be made perfect).
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (we will never see death), that they without us should not be MADE PERFECT (Christ is the ONLY ONE PERFECT).
Luke 46:40 ....but every one that IS PERFECT shall be as his MASTER.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they MAY BE PERFECT ......
God Bless YOU.
Luke 23:43
Acts 1:25; John 17:12 Judas Iscariot is the son of perdition. He went to his own place. Revelation 17:8
Isaiah 5:14
Romans 16:25-27
John 3:16 I pray many will be saved. Keep the Faith, trust only and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ. Nobody can save themselves. We give glory to God for He gave us a free gift, a gift of Grace, the grace of God that is available to all.
Hope this helps.
But interesting that you quoted 1 John 4:3, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." This is the wonderful Truth from John, about the spirits that influence men what to believe & proclaim (as the false prophets of verse 1 did). That spirit that does not confess that Christ has come in the flesh is the spirit of Satan (antichrist).
Some have glossed over these verses, but in the past, I felt compelled to consider, 'surely a spirit that does not confess Christ coming in the flesh, must be a different spirit that believes that Jesus was a real Person?' The spirits themselves believe Jesus was real, the Jews & Romans believed, even the Gnostics (about whom John was warning the believers), believed - there was no denial that there was a Man going around by the Name of Jesus & saying & doing all that He did. But these same Gnostics & others I've mentioned will never confess one thing. And that is, that Jesus came out from God to become a man. Because gnostics believe that Divinity cannot unite with the material, especially sinful flesh, therefore the incarnation is an impossibility. And so John issued the warning to try (test) the spirits (that by which these men spoke); that there is a spirit that denies that Jesus came down from Heaven into a body of flesh. John 3:13; John 17:5.
I read your comment, you believe we are one with The Father and the Son John 17:21; but you don't believe we exchange names.
Are we the bride (the wife) of our HUSBAND (Christ)?
Does the WIFE not always take the NAME OF HER HUSBAND?
Revelation 3:12...and I (CHRIST) will write upon him (my wife) the NAME OF MY GOD ......and I will write upon him My NAME.
God Bless You.
So, this Word that was with God and was God ( John 1:1), was not only the Word uttered by God to create all things (v3), but in God's Wisdom & Plan, He gave His Word flesh (v14) - drawn from the Essence of God into humanity, & the disciples saw that this Glory which reflected from Him was that of the Father's only begotten Son (not first created, 'protokitises', but first born, 'prototokos': in relation to the first 'of its type in creation, of divinity & humanity as one'). At a previous time, someone else translated that verse to be, 'that Jesus then became God's Word' (i.e. Jesus came & then the Word placed into Him; rather than 'the Word came & was made human'). Herein is the problem.
Then when we look at John 17:5, we can see in Jesus' Prayer that He recalls to His Father about the Glory that He had with Him. This glory Jesus had to lay aside for the sake of becoming human ( Philippians 2:5-8). And in John 17:1-5, Jesus speaks to His Father about this Glory: that Jesus was in the throes of completing the Work of the Father, of bringing Glory to Him through it (v4), and now longs for God's Glory (which Jesus once had), to be granted back to Him (v5). Now exactly what this Glory entails, we're not told. But it would certainly reflect His Position within God's Person (seen in the verses cited), the task accomplished on Earth, & the Glory, Power & Victory emanating from the coming resurrection.
And the glory we've received: being in Christ as Christ is in God ( Col 3:3) - not gods, but sharing in all the goodness & vitality of the One Who is now our Father & Jesus our Brother.
Regarding John 17:5 : "Glorify thee with with thine own self" (Self). Creation is an extension of self. In this sense meaning, extend God's whole being (qualities, His Mind) unto Jesus. "which I had with thee before the world was.", meaning Jesus was an extension (creation) of God before man entered the world. Jesus has nothing that does not come from God. The difference between us and Jesus is that He has nothing else. As I've previously stated, God created Jesus (Christ); Jesus did not create God.This is Their only difference. So, is Jesus God? No, in the sense that He didn't create the Creator. Yes, in the sense that He has everything of/from the Creator (Source) and thinks and responds and speaks ONLY what the Voice for God (Holy Spirit) communicates.
How does this fit into the idea of the Trinity? God Is. God is God, in His Kingdom, where nothing but perfect Love exists. No fear/hate (or even thoughts of fear and hate) can enter. His Kingdom is holy where perfect peace dwells. Nothing changes (no duality). Nothing there within or without can affect it. God's omnipotence can't be usurped. The Holy Spirit is simply God's Voice. Jesus is the Christ, APPEARING as man, our mediator. We need this mediator because without Him the distance between God and man would be too great for us to encompass and overcome. This Trinity is One even though they appear to have different functions. They are One BECAUSE They share a common purpose, and what shares a common purpose is the same.
A good way to describe the Trinity is this: The Trinity in It's oneness transcends the sum of it's parts. I perceive the same concerning the Sonship: God has only One Son. If all His creations are His sons, then everyone must be an integral part of the whole Sonship. And the Sonship in its Oneness transcends the sum of it's parts.
And may I be so bold as to say that God would be incomplete without us (His Creations).
Peace to all.
God Is
The dispute doesn't exist with those precious verses. It exists when some believe that Jesus had no existence before He became a Man. Scriptures have been provided by several of us, to reveal this pre-incarnate Jesus - unfortunately, those Scriptures have been either been avoided, misconstrued or altered in meaning/application to reflect their belief. Personally, I have given those Scriptures several times, but on maybe one or two occasions over these years, none has ever come back to me with a desire to expound them further. So maybe I will try with you brother since you appear quite keen.
Just one verse: how do you understand John 17:5? "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What is Jesus saying in His prayer to His Father? Thank you.
Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).
Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.
John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.
You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.