" Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory," v.31 must be understood in its correct setting. Jesus in his humanity emptied himself of the glory so in all things he shall like men, -namely of the seed of Abraham. Matt.1:1 so begins as the son of Abraham; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people"(He.2:17) Nevertheless the Holy Spirit enumerates generation of Jesus as following those of heavens. (Ge.2:4)
Here we shall examine the glory factor related to the Alpha Omega aspect of the Son. In his prayer to his Father he speaks of it. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."( John 17:5). This glory is based on the word. "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him./And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." The cloud of witnesses were thus part of his glory. and sanctified by truth. So Jesus prays, "Sanctify them by truth: thy word is truth" (John17:10)
In his transfiguration on the mount the three disciples were present. Jesus wanted them to hold it a secret till he had completely perfected the will of his Father. From the above we see how man trivializes this glory by playing to the gallery and for the praise of men? In our Savior we are assured of life eternal. "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Instead of truth how false teachers make Jesus with limited salvation. Such doctrine of man shall do much worse. "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."(11:3)
Who is the authority to confer power on men but the Lord from heaven, who is heavenly? "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." The risen Christ in his humanity was the Word become flesh, so his authority stretched from Alpha the beginning. In his Ascension he was to be seated on the right hand of the Most High so Omega aspect, the ending referred to fulfilling the divine Will of his Father. " Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"(Ps.110:1-3). Firstly the two witnesses belong to 'thy people'. These were given to the Son. "and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."( John 17:11)
The chapter began with a golden reed and the angel directing John what to leave out and what to include requires attention. "for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This reed is a single measurement. "And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."(Re.21:17) Gold signifies faith and here single measurement is of the angel,- the fellow-servant of John and of the man to whom the Son has given authority. Power of the little ones and their angels positioned to behold the face of the Father always defines the golden reed. Every other scale is false.
Prophesy is another feature and the two witnesses would do it for "a thousand two hundred and threescore days. "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."(Matt.11:11)
The days is a tag supplied the Spirit to indicate the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. By the same token the Gentiles are allowed to operate for 42 months. This conflict reveals two laws, of the Spirit and of the sin.
Holiness of God is a name, glory of which is invested in his testimony which is the glorious gospel entrusted to his Son. So when He sent his only begotten Son what is the Will of God? " Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." His concern is for the glory of everlasting life that the one sheep carries. God so loved the world is to bring the glory of the cloud of witnesses match exactly with those who are in the world of the body.
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."( John 17:6)
"That they may be one" is what the ministry of reconciliation yet remaining. "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them./And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are".(vv.10-11).And when Jesus Christ says,"It is done" it is a signal that way to the tree of life is found. "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb./In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life."(Re.22:1-2)
"Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
Speaking of the Will we have in this prayer of Jesus, the utter sorrow of our Savior Lord over Judas, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:12). 'That the scripture might be fulfilled' refers to the blessings written in the covenant. (Ge.1:28) God blessed them at one lever was about Christ and the church. "Male and female created he them" applied to each believer who stood equally in direct frame of reference to the Wisdom principle (female) and also the Power principle.(Male). In the Lord's prayer we have the power and glory, in which this glory is a constant reminder of the body of Christ. "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." Forever is a tag for the Son. While we say 'Amen' we are declaring the creed of being one with the Faithful and true witness. When a believer treats like a nostrum and mumbles on auto-pilot mode it is a pointer to the imposter religion salvaged from a pagan cult of Rome has spread inroads into one's worship. Similar to the joy in heaven over one soul finding way back to the sheepfold we are witnessing Jesus with his fan ready to cast the chaff where the wind shall take where it will.
In the king's dream the ten toes tell the miry clay mixt with iron is under judgment. Like the stone cut not with hands judgment should come in series of shocks. there is an earth quake, and the tenth part of the city fell, it is what we read in Re.18:21. Seven thousand of men (7x1000) speaks it is predetermined. The hour of his judgment,- And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen," Babylon is interchangeable with Jerusalem. (Re.11:8). Loss of even one is diminishment to the glory of God.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he."
Vision is precisely what St Paul says, "We walk by faith and not by sight."(2 Co.5:7) It is borne out of knowledge,-St Paul calls it the glory of the same quality as of the spiritual body because it is from God,- who gives it a glory as with the see. So the seed ('whose sed is in itself-Ge.1:11) is part of the Abstract that shall never change. This glory is Person specific. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In short the vision that we speak here is to hold on to both worlds of the Spirit and of the body as one. St Paul gives us the context in v.1. "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Israel took pride in the Law of Moses but they perished just the same, save Joshua and Caleb because they had no vision. It began much earlier when the turned to the golden calf soon after Moses went up the mount. Their lack of vision would trouble them when during the time of the kings there were two places for golden calf worship one at Dan and at Bethel. "An eye for an eye" as set in the law characterize them now so the nation stands guilty of genocide. So as fulfillment of the Law that Jesus taught us 'to turn the other cheek also. He also showed with his life. God gave as a commandment: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"(Ge.1:28) His vision was clear and knew the reason God blessed 'then' on the sixth day from this prayer, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17:11)
Christ's ultimate sacrifice: Primary purpose was to do God's will.
In studying Christ's death on the cross and the resulting salvation of our souls it is no small thing to focus attention and time on such a matter on a regular basis. At least from our perspective the meaning to us personally must be considered with all due reverence for how He took us from death to life. John 17:6-8 makes clear that God was the one who gave Christ all the ones who were to be saved. The following verses ask for unity among them all; and to be in the world but not of it (in general). These verses prayed during His agony in Gethsemane are the summation of much of the earlier chapters in John clearly showing that God was the one who predetermined (predestined) all those who would be saved and hear His voice as His sheep.
However you slice it; there are some who will and will not come to Christ. Also God knows ahead of time who these people are so therefore certainly could have designated ahead of time who would be sheep and who would be a goat; who would be wheat and who a tare; etc. In other words; it wasn't up to Christ to give out any information that could lead someone to the truth in a merely intellectual manner and therefore much of His ministry was spent teaching in parables. Compare Mark 4:12 with Luke 8:12. The lack of insight given so that people can be saved is clear from the first passage; but Satan is used as the agent to blind men's hearts in the second example in Luke of the seed by the wayside.
There are as Deuteronomy 29:29 states some things in the Divine counsel which men are not privy to. Certain things can be searched out; however ( Proverbs 25:2). John 3:16 states that God so loved the world and sent His Son. We should keep in mind here that Christ came first and foremost to do the Father's will. All those called and chosen would be saved EXCEPT for the prophesied son of perdition (see Psalm 69:25; Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109).
Chris, my belief regarding JESUS sat at the right hand of the Father, it is not by your very poor testimony of Him, but by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, GOD the Father, understand? Hebrews 1:1-3 among other biblical references.Take a look. The testimony of the Word -the Word is GOD - it is greater than yours, understand? Or isn't it?
You called God "(Theos); Father (Patter;Abba-more intimate); Lord(Kurios), well, by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, you are saying nothing, your testimony about GOD in your post is irrelevant, insignificant, it was not by the Spirit of Christ, and it was not by the Spirit of Truth and John 16:12-15 confirm / endorse what I am just saying. Unfortunately you keep snaking in devilish doctrines and tares sowed by the Wicked one. --> By the way, "It is GOD that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers- Isaiah 40:22. Indeed, this revelation which GOD did give to Isaiah explains or suggests why there is not Life in whole Universe except in the Earth, I mean out of the Earth there is not in whole Universe the variety of Life that there is in the Earth, because GOD is sat upon the circle of the Earth.
To finish, you have cited in your posts the NAME of GOD as being the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, YHWH, ADONAI, EL SHADAI, HaSHEM, so I quoted John 17:6 where my Lord JESUS in His prayer said to the Father that He had MANIFESTED His NAME to the MEN that He, GOD the Father, had given to Him, So I asked UNTO you: What is the GOD's NAME my Lord JESUS MANIFESTED to the men?
Now, now, from your knowledge you said here the names mentioned above are NAMES of GOD, so I wanted to know which of these NAMES of GOD my Lord JESUS would have manifested to the men? The question is mine, not yours, I'm waiting you response.
Let's speak of the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, understand? I quoted to you and to ALL what my Lord JESUS said in His PRAYER to the Father. JESUS said to GOD the Father: John 17:6 - " I have MANIFESTED thy NAME unto the MEN which thou GAVEST me out of the WORLD: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;and they -the MEN- have kept thy Word.
In fact JESUS MANIFESTED the NAME of GOD to the MEN. Your answer is an announcement, a declaration, or even clearly leaves a CONFESSION that you DO NOT KNOW the NAME of GOD the Father, NAME MANIFESTED unto the MEN by my Lord JESUS.
So, in a defensive position because you don't have an answer within the Scriptures, you come in unpolished manner to tell me that I "cannot be more in the know of Name than the Son". What you said is fake. What matters and prevails is what my Lord JESUS said: Matthew 11:27 - "No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son,and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL Him. As you and ALL can see, it is by REVELATION,not by speculations, presumptions, and so on.
Your answer is an announcement, a declaration, or even clearly leaves a CONFESSION that you DO NOT KNOW the NAME of GOD the Father, NAME MANIFESTED by my Lord JESUS unto the MEN.
Furthermore, you cited the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist NAMES of GOD (this is a blaspheme), such as JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, YHWH, ADONAI, EL SHADAI, HaSHEM as if were the NAMES OF"GOD",but there are more esoteric and kabbalistic names of"GOD" besides these, according the devilish esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist Judaism,and you believe in this satanic doctrine and testify and spread their idolatries and sorceries here.
My Lord JESUS said: "No MAN knoweth the Son,but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father,save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL Him. As you and ALL can see, it is by REVELATION only, exclusively.
I'm a disciple of JESUS, who said from He himself " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning( Genesis 1:1) and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY.
My Lord JESUS in His pray to the Father, said: John 17:5-6
5 Now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the WORLD was.
6 I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
Chris, what GOD's NAME was manifested by my Lord JESUS?
As you know, the Bible is about two Covenants- The OT and NT.
What we are commenting is about the OT, not about the NT, for there is not that NAME or nickname in the NT. Remember: You quoted Isaiah 12:1-2.
Isaiah 16:-1-2 in the OT -Nevin'im(Prophets) Yeshayahu(Isaiah) is written as follow:
1 And you shall say on that day, I will thank You, O Lord, for You were wroth with me, may Your wrath turn away and may You comfort me.
2 Here is the God of my salvation, I shall trust and not fear; for the strength and praise of the Eternal the Lord was my salvation.
In fact that name was added in the translations inadvertently, but the name you have mentioned it is not the only fictitious name or nickname added in the OT (not added in the Bible as a whole-OT&NT), there are several others: I have listed YHWH, Yahweh, Yehovah,Elohim, Adonai, HaShem, Yahusha, YEHshia, Jehovah, YEHvah, these names are not NAMES of GOD, quite the opposite, all these names listed are strictly the names of the father of the Jews- John 8:44 combined with Revelation 12:3-4.
JESUS in His prayer to the Father, said: John 17:6 - I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: ... -->What's NAME?)
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19Isaiah 46:10Psalm 33:11Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
I will try to keep this short Ronald; to one point only.
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
God is a Spirit and His holiness is the name, which He expressed when He declared, 'Thou art my Son'. (Ps.7-8). We can understand the significance of this from this, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." ( John 17:6-NKJV; John 6:37). Holiness in the matter of the name creates a Holy Family not of flesh and blood but on the basis of faith. The key to the Father Son relationship is faith with works. "If then I be a father, where is my honour?" (Mal.1:6). There are well meaning Christians who is proof against spiritualizing the word. They take literally and go by sense than the Spirit. So what is the wisdom which they go by? Wisdom of heaven is free and they would rather be called Pharisees than take it. Faith is what required. If we see still arguments over humanity and deity of Jesus in our forum it just proves why. Their intellect is their security blanket and cannot let go.
Salvation plan of God is on the basis of the Father Son relationship. The earth as a mirror of heaven. This shall be completed when the tabernacle of God is among men. (Re.21:3)
Separation of sons of God from the unbelieving world is the work to which Jesus referred, My Father works hitherto and I work, and he opened a new and living way. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Co.6:17)
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Yes, the belief of the Eastern Orthodox church about Jesus is He didn't exist for ever but at a time before the creation of the woorld He was born/came out of Father God. The amended Nicene Creed which was a statement of faith states among others "(I believe) and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;". That statement was came out in 381 AD during the first ecumenical(universal) council of Constantinouple. So it was what all christians believed at that time. The church was still united at that time. The Roman Catholics also use it (with an extra addition about the Holy Spirit). So this is what the Catholics believe as well. They also believe that all saved people will be somehow "deified by grace". Probably they are using John 17:2, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:..." and 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". But John here says that we don't know what we will be, so that "be like Him" may not refer to Jesus' nature. Anyway, we know by part as the scripture says.
I am sory about your wife. Was she remary in an Orthodox church? Yes they allow as many as 3 mariages. Sadly they say a lot of excuses about that, thus canceling the Word of God.
Also I don't understand what you are saying in "The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.". If you like explain that clearer please. God blesses.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).
Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Mat.5:5 -Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth.
Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.
Jo.17:6-8 & 18
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
Re. 11:15-19
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
GOD the Father always responds to requests from His firstborn son-JESUS-. Luke 15:31 revels:Son, thou art ever with me,and all that I have is thine.
JESUS saved us and we are saved because He took us out of the world - John 17:5-8-,that is, He saved us from the power of the terrible Evil One, the ruler of the whole world.The Evil One had dominated even the seed of GOD, Israel was dominated by the Evil One, then GOD became Man, that is,The Word became flesh,He descended from heaven yet again,according to His purpose of salvation.
In fact, this was not the only time that He came to the Devil's world, but the difference now is that He became a Man and came to dwell among men, to save those who were His- John 17:6and12-26, that is,to take them out of the power of the Evil One, Hallelujah, even though they were still living in his diabolical world, and the Word gave us Power to resist the cunning snares/traps of the Devil- John 17:9-12-even though we still live in the Devil's world. Satan works through his demonic strategies to divert us from the faith that was once given to the saints.Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,a great mystery.
Re.11:15-18-The terrible WAR from now on
15...The kingdoms of this world(Devil's world) are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were(will be)angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged ( 1Thessalonians 4:14-16),and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear His name,small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Hello Adam. I consider your question through two separate perspectives: one, before the incarnation of the Word of God and the other, after it. From my readings of the whole Word of God, I don't believe that the writers of the OT nor their hearers would have understood any other concept or acceptance of the God's Nature other than 'He is One & there is none beside Him' (e.g. Isaiah 45:5.6).
Even the "Shema Yisrael" ( Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is Israel's central belief & affirmation on the singularity of God's Person, & any suggestion of a 'compound' Nature of God would be anathema. Also Isaiah 53:1-12 and Isaiah 9:6,7 references to a coming Messiah, which should clearly reveal the Divine Nature of a Coming One, is discarded by them, then & now. So, anything of a Triune God must be rejected by the Jew, & only the operation of God by His Spirit (i.e. God revealing Himself & working before them) should be acceptable to them (e.g. Psalm 51:10,11; Isaiah 11:2; & many others). As believers though, we can see the Triune God in operation in the whole Bible, but Israel is blinded to this Truth & their hearts hardened.
When Jesus came & spoke (e.g. John 16:27,28; John 17:5), He declared His Divine Nature, that which was not revealed before. So your reference ( Matthew 22:32), speaks primarily of the One Nature of God; but to those who believe, having received salvation through Jesus Christ, know that the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob was always the Triune God, Who would one day manifest Himself fully to a needy world: God's Word first by the prophets, now given through His Word made flesh ( Hebrews 1:1-3) . What Israel knew of the One God then, should have revealed the full Nature of a Triune God at the appearance of their Messiah. But their eyes were blinded & hearts hardened. Therefore, as Christians, I believe that we should see God (in the OT & NT) as a Triune God, manifesting Himself also as His Word and His Spirit going forth to accomplish His Will over His creation.
Tags are used in the case of command as well as to indicate the fullness of Jesus Christ. Expressions like "unto this day" 'on that day" forever" etc., are tags. "I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever."(1 Ki.9:3)
The name of the Father is holiness of the Gospel, which is one. (One Lord , one faith-Ep.4:5).
The Son has a command number, which is Three. The Word made flesh makes his command number Four.
The Number Five is with respect the Son and all souls given "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."( John 17:2) The principle of Association is applied to man in terms of his earthly circumstances. Thus his ox is counted as five. For this reason in the Law we have God commanding Moses, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep".(Ex.22:1)
What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.
1260 days of the ministry of Jesus is reckoned as baseline so both the Lord from heaven and the Son of man serves as a scale.
In the Parable of the Five Wise virgins and Five Foolish virgins where the command number is Ten, indicating the Will of God. (Matt.25:1-13)
(See entry under T-Ten commandments)
The virgins were redeemed from the world and they would have died to sin with taking baptism by water. They were to do the perfect will of God, which was their reasonable service. The Foolish five did no further in walking closer to the Lord. On the other hand the Five Wise virgins redeeming the times were evil did all to be kept from the ungodly ways. In short they followed the prompting of the indwelling Spirit.
Ex nihilo as a concept must remain a chimera of carnal mind, while Sovereign will of God as the Word presides over Power and Wisdom. When we speak of the word of God forever settled in the heavens (Ps.119:89) The word creation has a Cause as well as its volume. He.11:3 refers to two worlds one which is unseen and the other seen. The earth is what the creation attests as Effect, which is upheld 'by the word of his power' (He.1:3) The word of his grace is able to build up. (Ac.20:32; John 17:17) So the new heaven and new earth in Re.21:1 is the inheritance of man and this newness merely speaks of the man component embedded in the fellowship of God with Man.
The word sanctifies whosoever receives the Son and abides in him. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Is.45:18)
"He created it not in vain" is the absolute certainty of Wisdom and Power interacting vis- -vis with the Law. The Spirit underpins the principle of Similitude as a quality: like begets the like. It means the Law renders both heaven and earth having the same qualities. It is thus the Spirit gives heaven a concrete image of a house built by Wisdom. (Pr.9:1) By principle of Similitude the earth is rendered habitable:
We see it in the creation account. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."(Ge.1:11) 'Whose seed is in itself" by the principle of Similitude the word of God is compared to man whose seed is in itself. The intent of the Spirit is unmistakeable. As God is holy, the earth shall be holy as well. "Be ye holy, for I am holy."
God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. This generation belongs to the generation of Jesus Christ. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
*Samuel as instructed by God anoints the first time when David was unknown, and least made of even in the eyes of his brethren. But God as the Spirit entrusted Samuel for a specific purpose, which we shall realize only with the third anointing.
Secondly men of Judah anointed him after the death of Saul. This was more of a tactical decision considering that he was their most famous son who brought them prestige in the eyes of Israel. They appropriated him as their own, "And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul(2 Sa.5:4)". This anointing was according to the flesh.
Third time is when David became in the eyes of Israel as anointed of God. So the Spirit gives the relationship its universality: body spirit and soul are consecrated. The Spirit sets David in context of the Lord who said unto my Lord, (Ps.110:1-3) David under the Law of Moses represented shadow of things to come when Jesus Christ reigns from Zion.
The term as used in the Law of Moses holds meaning which is in a narrow sense. Priests are consecrated as well as things as different from their common use.
Consecration broadly stated renders anything being made holy. God command Moses to remove his sandals, " And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.(Ex.3:5)" The ground is holy because of the holiness of the Lord God. 'Be ye holy for I am holy"
Similarly when God descended upon Mount Sinai there were limits put for the people from breaking in "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' (Ex.19:23). The presence of God requires holiness in man, places and things of use, which is in relation the fellowship of God with the Son. 'Be ye holy as I am is what abiding in Christ means so His grace has not been in vain. His Son is the template. 'When David is set as double for the Son God commands Samuel to anoint him which he did three times.
Consecration is much more than this. When God sent forth his word his divine Will, it expressly required fulfillment. We are blessed accordingly. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light."(1 Pe.2:9) God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth./ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:/Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In Christ all authority in heaven and on earth resides so without abiding in him the commission cannot be discharged (Matt.28:19)( John 15:4-5). It is universal and enjoined upon ever believer.
Jesus sent the twelve disciples as associates. (Matt.10:40). This Principle of Association renders all those foreknown and called by the Father having a position, which is in heaven. God of all mercies empowers the word outflow as with the Son of man offered the living waters. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" ( John 7:8).
The risen Christ gave commission to his disciples across time and space that they 'make disciple of all nations' and assured them that he was with them always till the end of time.
In giving this commission he was demanding the fullness of every disciple because the church was being built brick by brick on the living Word.
"I am the true vine" is another analogy. "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily/ And ye are complete in him," (Col.2:9-10) Consequently the principle of Association at every node had to be perfect. "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away."( John 15:2)
Not merely the twelve or seventy other disciples, which received the commission from word of his mouth but as we read in his prayer, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;( John 17:21-23) Unity of the Spirit is an essential part of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. 'I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.'
" Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory," v.31 must be understood in its correct setting. Jesus in his humanity emptied himself of the glory so in all things he shall like men, -namely of the seed of Abraham. Matt.1:1 so begins as the son of Abraham; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people"(He.2:17) Nevertheless the Holy Spirit enumerates generation of Jesus as following those of heavens. (Ge.2:4)
Here we shall examine the glory factor related to the Alpha Omega aspect of the Son. In his prayer to his Father he speaks of it. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."( John 17:5). This glory is based on the word. "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him./And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." The cloud of witnesses were thus part of his glory. and sanctified by truth. So Jesus prays, "Sanctify them by truth: thy word is truth" (John17:10)
In his transfiguration on the mount the three disciples were present. Jesus wanted them to hold it a secret till he had completely perfected the will of his Father. From the above we see how man trivializes this glory by playing to the gallery and for the praise of men? In our Savior we are assured of life eternal. "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Instead of truth how false teachers make Jesus with limited salvation. Such doctrine of man shall do much worse. "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."(11:3)
Who is the authority to confer power on men but the Lord from heaven, who is heavenly? "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." The risen Christ in his humanity was the Word become flesh, so his authority stretched from Alpha the beginning. In his Ascension he was to be seated on the right hand of the Most High so Omega aspect, the ending referred to fulfilling the divine Will of his Father. " Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"(Ps.110:1-3). Firstly the two witnesses belong to 'thy people'. These were given to the Son. "and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."( John 17:11)
The chapter began with a golden reed and the angel directing John what to leave out and what to include requires attention. "for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This reed is a single measurement. "And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."(Re.21:17) Gold signifies faith and here single measurement is of the angel,- the fellow-servant of John and of the man to whom the Son has given authority. Power of the little ones and their angels positioned to behold the face of the Father always defines the golden reed. Every other scale is false.
Prophesy is another feature and the two witnesses would do it for "a thousand two hundred and threescore days. "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."(Matt.11:11)
The days is a tag supplied the Spirit to indicate the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. By the same token the Gentiles are allowed to operate for 42 months. This conflict reveals two laws, of the Spirit and of the sin.
Holiness of God is a name, glory of which is invested in his testimony which is the glorious gospel entrusted to his Son. So when He sent his only begotten Son what is the Will of God? " Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." His concern is for the glory of everlasting life that the one sheep carries. God so loved the world is to bring the glory of the cloud of witnesses match exactly with those who are in the world of the body.
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."( John 17:6)
"That they may be one" is what the ministry of reconciliation yet remaining. "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them./And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are".(vv.10-11).And when Jesus Christ says,"It is done" it is a signal that way to the tree of life is found. "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb./In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life."(Re.22:1-2)
"Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
Speaking of the Will we have in this prayer of Jesus, the utter sorrow of our Savior Lord over Judas, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."( John 17:12). 'That the scripture might be fulfilled' refers to the blessings written in the covenant. (Ge.1:28) God blessed them at one lever was about Christ and the church. "Male and female created he them" applied to each believer who stood equally in direct frame of reference to the Wisdom principle (female) and also the Power principle.(Male). In the Lord's prayer we have the power and glory, in which this glory is a constant reminder of the body of Christ. "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." Forever is a tag for the Son. While we say 'Amen' we are declaring the creed of being one with the Faithful and true witness. When a believer treats like a nostrum and mumbles on auto-pilot mode it is a pointer to the imposter religion salvaged from a pagan cult of Rome has spread inroads into one's worship. Similar to the joy in heaven over one soul finding way back to the sheepfold we are witnessing Jesus with his fan ready to cast the chaff where the wind shall take where it will.
In the king's dream the ten toes tell the miry clay mixt with iron is under judgment. Like the stone cut not with hands judgment should come in series of shocks. there is an earth quake, and the tenth part of the city fell, it is what we read in Re.18:21. Seven thousand of men (7x1000) speaks it is predetermined. The hour of his judgment,- And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen," Babylon is interchangeable with Jerusalem. (Re.11:8). Loss of even one is diminishment to the glory of God.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he."
Vision is precisely what St Paul says, "We walk by faith and not by sight."(2 Co.5:7) It is borne out of knowledge,-St Paul calls it the glory of the same quality as of the spiritual body because it is from God,- who gives it a glory as with the see. So the seed ('whose sed is in itself-Ge.1:11) is part of the Abstract that shall never change. This glory is Person specific. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. In short the vision that we speak here is to hold on to both worlds of the Spirit and of the body as one. St Paul gives us the context in v.1. "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Israel took pride in the Law of Moses but they perished just the same, save Joshua and Caleb because they had no vision. It began much earlier when the turned to the golden calf soon after Moses went up the mount. Their lack of vision would trouble them when during the time of the kings there were two places for golden calf worship one at Dan and at Bethel. "An eye for an eye" as set in the law characterize them now so the nation stands guilty of genocide. So as fulfillment of the Law that Jesus taught us 'to turn the other cheek also. He also showed with his life. God gave as a commandment: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:"(Ge.1:28) His vision was clear and knew the reason God blessed 'then' on the sixth day from this prayer, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17:11)
In studying Christ's death on the cross and the resulting salvation of our souls it is no small thing to focus attention and time on such a matter on a regular basis. At least from our perspective the meaning to us personally must be considered with all due reverence for how He took us from death to life. John 17:6-8 makes clear that God was the one who gave Christ all the ones who were to be saved. The following verses ask for unity among them all; and to be in the world but not of it (in general). These verses prayed during His agony in Gethsemane are the summation of much of the earlier chapters in John clearly showing that God was the one who predetermined (predestined) all those who would be saved and hear His voice as His sheep.
However you slice it; there are some who will and will not come to Christ. Also God knows ahead of time who these people are so therefore certainly could have designated ahead of time who would be sheep and who would be a goat; who would be wheat and who a tare; etc. In other words; it wasn't up to Christ to give out any information that could lead someone to the truth in a merely intellectual manner and therefore much of His ministry was spent teaching in parables. Compare Mark 4:12 with Luke 8:12. The lack of insight given so that people can be saved is clear from the first passage; but Satan is used as the agent to blind men's hearts in the second example in Luke of the seed by the wayside.
There are as Deuteronomy 29:29 states some things in the Divine counsel which men are not privy to. Certain things can be searched out; however ( Proverbs 25:2). John 3:16 states that God so loved the world and sent His Son. We should keep in mind here that Christ came first and foremost to do the Father's will. All those called and chosen would be saved EXCEPT for the prophesied son of perdition (see Psalm 69:25; Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109).
You called God "(Theos); Father (Patter;Abba-more intimate); Lord(Kurios), well, by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, you are saying nothing, your testimony about GOD in your post is irrelevant, insignificant, it was not by the Spirit of Christ, and it was not by the Spirit of Truth and John 16:12-15 confirm / endorse what I am just saying. Unfortunately you keep snaking in devilish doctrines and tares sowed by the Wicked one. --> By the way, "It is GOD that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers- Isaiah 40:22. Indeed, this revelation which GOD did give to Isaiah explains or suggests why there is not Life in whole Universe except in the Earth, I mean out of the Earth there is not in whole Universe the variety of Life that there is in the Earth, because GOD is sat upon the circle of the Earth.
To finish, you have cited in your posts the NAME of GOD as being the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, YHWH, ADONAI, EL SHADAI, HaSHEM, so I quoted John 17:6 where my Lord JESUS in His prayer said to the Father that He had MANIFESTED His NAME to the MEN that He, GOD the Father, had given to Him, So I asked UNTO you: What is the GOD's NAME my Lord JESUS MANIFESTED to the men?
Now, now, from your knowledge you said here the names mentioned above are NAMES of GOD, so I wanted to know which of these NAMES of GOD my Lord JESUS would have manifested to the men? The question is mine, not yours, I'm waiting you response.
Be careful or else get ready
Let's speak of the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, understand? I quoted to you and to ALL what my Lord JESUS said in His PRAYER to the Father. JESUS said to GOD the Father: John 17:6 - " I have MANIFESTED thy NAME unto the MEN which thou GAVEST me out of the WORLD: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;and they -the MEN- have kept thy Word.
In fact JESUS MANIFESTED the NAME of GOD to the MEN. Your answer is an announcement, a declaration, or even clearly leaves a CONFESSION that you DO NOT KNOW the NAME of GOD the Father, NAME MANIFESTED unto the MEN by my Lord JESUS.
So, in a defensive position because you don't have an answer within the Scriptures, you come in unpolished manner to tell me that I "cannot be more in the know of Name than the Son". What you said is fake. What matters and prevails is what my Lord JESUS said: Matthew 11:27 - "No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son,and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL Him. As you and ALL can see, it is by REVELATION,not by speculations, presumptions, and so on.
Your answer is an announcement, a declaration, or even clearly leaves a CONFESSION that you DO NOT KNOW the NAME of GOD the Father, NAME MANIFESTED by my Lord JESUS unto the MEN.
Furthermore, you cited the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist NAMES of GOD (this is a blaspheme), such as JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, YHWH, ADONAI, EL SHADAI, HaSHEM as if were the NAMES OF"GOD",but there are more esoteric and kabbalistic names of"GOD" besides these, according the devilish esoteric and kabbalistic and spiritist Judaism,and you believe in this satanic doctrine and testify and spread their idolatries and sorceries here.
My Lord JESUS said: "No MAN knoweth the Son,but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father,save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL Him. As you and ALL can see, it is by REVELATION only, exclusively.
Wake up, it's midnight
I'm a disciple of JESUS, who said from He himself " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning( Genesis 1:1) and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY.
My Lord JESUS in His pray to the Father, said: John 17:5-6
5 Now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the WORLD was.
6 I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
Chris, what GOD's NAME was manifested by my Lord JESUS?
Adam
As you know, the Bible is about two Covenants- The OT and NT.
What we are commenting is about the OT, not about the NT, for there is not that NAME or nickname in the NT. Remember: You quoted Isaiah 12:1-2.
Isaiah 16:-1-2 in the OT -Nevin'im(Prophets) Yeshayahu(Isaiah) is written as follow:
1 And you shall say on that day, I will thank You, O Lord, for You were wroth with me, may Your wrath turn away and may You comfort me.
2 Here is the God of my salvation, I shall trust and not fear; for the strength and praise of the Eternal the Lord was my salvation.
In fact that name was added in the translations inadvertently, but the name you have mentioned it is not the only fictitious name or nickname added in the OT (not added in the Bible as a whole-OT&NT), there are several others: I have listed YHWH, Yahweh, Yehovah,Elohim, Adonai, HaShem, Yahusha, YEHshia, Jehovah, YEHvah, these names are not NAMES of GOD, quite the opposite, all these names listed are strictly the names of the father of the Jews- John 8:44 combined with Revelation 12:3-4.
JESUS in His prayer to the Father, said: John 17:6 - I have manifested thy NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: ... -->What's NAME?)
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Part two
Vs 5 The plan of God, predetermined glory, Jesus knew the Scriptures. All that was to happen to Him and the glory He would receive after He suffered on the cross had already been spoken by the prophets in the past tense as though they had already happened.
As Jesus was on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-26, He talks about them not believing what the prophets had written about what was to happen to Jesus. The first man to be raised from the dead in a glorified body and God placed Him on His right hand on the throne a man, not a god.
Jesus was a man who was tempted like us and fulfilled all His Father asked Him we see hundreds of prophecies Jesus fulfilled and the man Jesus did it without one sin. Only a man could undo what the first man did. God could not do that because He cannot sin or die. The law was made for man and the curse of sin was on man, not God.
In Verses 20-22, Jesus had not yet been crucified and the glory the Father had given Him Jesus has given it to us today "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This glory we will receive when Jesus returns and we are resurrected in our glorified bodies, we have it now, but it will not be manifest until Jesus returns.
If Jesus was a co-equal God in the three-person God, how could He be given anything He would already have it? Malachi 3:6 says God does not change so God cannot change, Numbers 23:19 Isaiah 46:10 Psalm 33:11 Acts 17:26 The glory Jesus was asking for, He would receive when He resurrected.
The Spirit could not be given because Jesus had not been glorified (resurrected) John 7:39 Things were hidden from the disciples until Jesus was glorified (resurrected) John 12:16.
2 Timothy 1:9-10 It was given before creation so, John 17:24 we will be where He is when we are resurrected, Jesus was given glory with the Father before all creation in God's mind and plan. Ephesians 1:4
I hope this makes sense I am not the best at this.
God bless,
RLW
Yet, since we've been given more insight to the 'origin' of this Son of God, we are compelled to give that due consideration. I realize that you have your interpretation of certain of those verses, e.g. John 1:1 & you've even given John 17:3 in your comment here. But in Jesus' prayer to His Father, He didn't stop there; He also said John 17:5. Maybe, your thoughts on what He meant, for I have labored over this verse & cannot re-construct it to fit any other meaning than what is given. Who then is this Jesus? Just a created Man from Holy Seed or One coming from the Person of God, Who shared in God's Glory, Who created the worlds, Who alone could live a sinless life to set men free from sin's grip & resulting damnation?
Lastly, you asked, "If the Trinity is true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture?" I believe that the Trinity is taught in Scripture (a few pertinent verses were previously given), just as we learn of the major doctrines: of God, of Jesus, of the Holy Spirit, of Salvation, of Satan, of the Future. It's just not given to us in a special Book or under a special Heading, "Herewith is the complete & unabridged Doctrine of ..". As in all matters spiritual, we have to learn from the reading of all Scripture, yet "rightly divided" & Spirit-guided. My natural mind wants to believe that Jesus came as God's Son, through a Divine Birth, having no previous Form within God's Person. But for me to hold to that belief means I would have to throw out a whole lot of Scripture that tells me that there is more to this Son of God than what I would like to believe. My hunger for God's Word & Truth will simply not allow me to avoid or reject those verses. And I write this purely as an arrow piercing my own heart & understanding & not pointed to anyone else, as we all have to be clear in conscience before God in the treatment of His precious Word - and I'm particularly sensitive to that - even as I "tremble at His Word". Blessings.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
God is a Spirit and His holiness is the name, which He expressed when He declared, 'Thou art my Son'. (Ps.7-8). We can understand the significance of this from this, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." ( John 17:6-NKJV; John 6:37). Holiness in the matter of the name creates a Holy Family not of flesh and blood but on the basis of faith. The key to the Father Son relationship is faith with works. "If then I be a father, where is my honour?" (Mal.1:6). There are well meaning Christians who is proof against spiritualizing the word. They take literally and go by sense than the Spirit. So what is the wisdom which they go by? Wisdom of heaven is free and they would rather be called Pharisees than take it. Faith is what required. If we see still arguments over humanity and deity of Jesus in our forum it just proves why. Their intellect is their security blanket and cannot let go.
Salvation plan of God is on the basis of the Father Son relationship. The earth as a mirror of heaven. This shall be completed when the tabernacle of God is among men. (Re.21:3)
Separation of sons of God from the unbelieving world is the work to which Jesus referred, My Father works hitherto and I work, and he opened a new and living way. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Co.6:17)
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, the belief of the Eastern Orthodox church about Jesus is He didn't exist for ever but at a time before the creation of the woorld He was born/came out of Father God. The amended Nicene Creed which was a statement of faith states among others "(I believe) and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;". That statement was came out in 381 AD during the first ecumenical(universal) council of Constantinouple. So it was what all christians believed at that time. The church was still united at that time. The Roman Catholics also use it (with an extra addition about the Holy Spirit). So this is what the Catholics believe as well. They also believe that all saved people will be somehow "deified by grace". Probably they are using John 17:2, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:..." and 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". But John here says that we don't know what we will be, so that "be like Him" may not refer to Jesus' nature. Anyway, we know by part as the scripture says.
I am sory about your wife. Was she remary in an Orthodox church? Yes they allow as many as 3 mariages. Sadly they say a lot of excuses about that, thus canceling the Word of God.
Also I don't understand what you are saying in "The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.". If you like explain that clearer please. God blesses.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).
Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.
Jo.17:6-8 & 18
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
Re. 11:15-19
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of GOD opened in heaven
GOD the Father always responds to requests from His firstborn son-JESUS-. Luke 15:31 revels:Son, thou art ever with me,and all that I have is thine.
JESUS saved us and we are saved because He took us out of the world - John 17:5-8-,that is, He saved us from the power of the terrible Evil One, the ruler of the whole world.The Evil One had dominated even the seed of GOD, Israel was dominated by the Evil One, then GOD became Man, that is,The Word became flesh,He descended from heaven yet again,according to His purpose of salvation.
In fact, this was not the only time that He came to the Devil's world, but the difference now is that He became a Man and came to dwell among men, to save those who were His- John 17:6and12-26, that is,to take them out of the power of the Evil One, Hallelujah, even though they were still living in his diabolical world, and the Word gave us Power to resist the cunning snares/traps of the Devil- John 17:9-12-even though we still live in the Devil's world. Satan works through his demonic strategies to divert us from the faith that was once given to the saints.Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,a great mystery.
Re.11:15-18-The terrible WAR from now on
15...The kingdoms of this world(Devil's world) are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were(will be)angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged ( 1Thessalonians 4:14-16),and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear His name,small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Be careful and get ready
Even the "Shema Yisrael" ( Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is Israel's central belief & affirmation on the singularity of God's Person, & any suggestion of a 'compound' Nature of God would be anathema. Also Isaiah 53:1-12 and Isaiah 9:6,7 references to a coming Messiah, which should clearly reveal the Divine Nature of a Coming One, is discarded by them, then & now. So, anything of a Triune God must be rejected by the Jew, & only the operation of God by His Spirit (i.e. God revealing Himself & working before them) should be acceptable to them (e.g. Psalm 51:10,11; Isaiah 11:2; & many others). As believers though, we can see the Triune God in operation in the whole Bible, but Israel is blinded to this Truth & their hearts hardened.
When Jesus came & spoke (e.g. John 16:27,28; John 17:5), He declared His Divine Nature, that which was not revealed before. So your reference ( Matthew 22:32), speaks primarily of the One Nature of God; but to those who believe, having received salvation through Jesus Christ, know that the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob was always the Triune God, Who would one day manifest Himself fully to a needy world: God's Word first by the prophets, now given through His Word made flesh ( Hebrews 1:1-3) . What Israel knew of the One God then, should have revealed the full Nature of a Triune God at the appearance of their Messiah. But their eyes were blinded & hearts hardened. Therefore, as Christians, I believe that we should see God (in the OT & NT) as a Triune God, manifesting Himself also as His Word and His Spirit going forth to accomplish His Will over His creation.
Tags are used in the case of command as well as to indicate the fullness of Jesus Christ. Expressions like "unto this day" 'on that day" forever" etc., are tags. "I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever."(1 Ki.9:3)
The name of the Father is holiness of the Gospel, which is one. (One Lord , one faith-Ep.4:5).
The Son has a command number, which is Three. The Word made flesh makes his command number Four.
The Number Five is with respect the Son and all souls given "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."( John 17:2) The principle of Association is applied to man in terms of his earthly circumstances. Thus his ox is counted as five. For this reason in the Law we have God commanding Moses, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep".(Ex.22:1)
What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.
1260 days of the ministry of Jesus is reckoned as baseline so both the Lord from heaven and the Son of man serves as a scale.
In the Parable of the Five Wise virgins and Five Foolish virgins where the command number is Ten, indicating the Will of God. (Matt.25:1-13)
(See entry under T-Ten commandments)
The virgins were redeemed from the world and they would have died to sin with taking baptism by water. They were to do the perfect will of God, which was their reasonable service. The Foolish five did no further in walking closer to the Lord. On the other hand the Five Wise virgins redeeming the times were evil did all to be kept from the ungodly ways. In short they followed the prompting of the indwelling Spirit.
Ex nihilo as a concept must remain a chimera of carnal mind, while Sovereign will of God as the Word presides over Power and Wisdom. When we speak of the word of God forever settled in the heavens (Ps.119:89) The word creation has a Cause as well as its volume. He.11:3 refers to two worlds one which is unseen and the other seen. The earth is what the creation attests as Effect, which is upheld 'by the word of his power' (He.1:3) The word of his grace is able to build up. (Ac.20:32; John 17:17) So the new heaven and new earth in Re.21:1 is the inheritance of man and this newness merely speaks of the man component embedded in the fellowship of God with Man.
The word sanctifies whosoever receives the Son and abides in him. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Is.45:18)
"He created it not in vain" is the absolute certainty of Wisdom and Power interacting vis- -vis with the Law. The Spirit underpins the principle of Similitude as a quality: like begets the like. It means the Law renders both heaven and earth having the same qualities. It is thus the Spirit gives heaven a concrete image of a house built by Wisdom. (Pr.9:1) By principle of Similitude the earth is rendered habitable:
We see it in the creation account. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."(Ge.1:11) 'Whose seed is in itself" by the principle of Similitude the word of God is compared to man whose seed is in itself. The intent of the Spirit is unmistakeable. As God is holy, the earth shall be holy as well. "Be ye holy, for I am holy."
God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. This generation belongs to the generation of Jesus Christ. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
*Samuel as instructed by God anoints the first time when David was unknown, and least made of even in the eyes of his brethren. But God as the Spirit entrusted Samuel for a specific purpose, which we shall realize only with the third anointing.
Secondly men of Judah anointed him after the death of Saul. This was more of a tactical decision considering that he was their most famous son who brought them prestige in the eyes of Israel. They appropriated him as their own, "And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul(2 Sa.5:4)". This anointing was according to the flesh.
Third time is when David became in the eyes of Israel as anointed of God. So the Spirit gives the relationship its universality: body spirit and soul are consecrated. The Spirit sets David in context of the Lord who said unto my Lord, (Ps.110:1-3) David under the Law of Moses represented shadow of things to come when Jesus Christ reigns from Zion.
The term as used in the Law of Moses holds meaning which is in a narrow sense. Priests are consecrated as well as things as different from their common use.
Consecration broadly stated renders anything being made holy. God command Moses to remove his sandals, " And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.(Ex.3:5)" The ground is holy because of the holiness of the Lord God. 'Be ye holy for I am holy"
Similarly when God descended upon Mount Sinai there were limits put for the people from breaking in "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' (Ex.19:23). The presence of God requires holiness in man, places and things of use, which is in relation the fellowship of God with the Son. 'Be ye holy as I am is what abiding in Christ means so His grace has not been in vain. His Son is the template. 'When David is set as double for the Son God commands Samuel to anoint him which he did three times.
Consecration is much more than this. When God sent forth his word his divine Will, it expressly required fulfillment. We are blessed accordingly. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light."(1 Pe.2:9) God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth./ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:/Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In Christ all authority in heaven and on earth resides so without abiding in him the commission cannot be discharged (Matt.28:19)( John 15:4-5). It is universal and enjoined upon ever believer.
Jesus sent the twelve disciples as associates. (Matt.10:40). This Principle of Association renders all those foreknown and called by the Father having a position, which is in heaven. God of all mercies empowers the word outflow as with the Son of man offered the living waters. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" ( John 7:8).
The risen Christ gave commission to his disciples across time and space that they 'make disciple of all nations' and assured them that he was with them always till the end of time.
In giving this commission he was demanding the fullness of every disciple because the church was being built brick by brick on the living Word.
"I am the true vine" is another analogy. "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily/ And ye are complete in him," (Col.2:9-10) Consequently the principle of Association at every node had to be perfect. "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away."( John 15:2)
Not merely the twelve or seventy other disciples, which received the commission from word of his mouth but as we read in his prayer, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;( John 17:21-23) Unity of the Spirit is an essential part of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. 'I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.'