There is a definition that's given to us here. It says we are in the flesh if we don't have Christ. If we are not "born again" we have an illegitimate claim at being a true believer.
Whereas, those who are born again do belong to Christ & has been gather unto the Gardener.
Yet those who are in the work of sanctification of the Spirit.
They are true believers too, & belong to Christ, having received of God the gift of faith, from hearing the Word of God in their hearts to the working out of their salvation,& by that gift of faith, they receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit Gal 3:2
Hebrews 12:1 wherefore lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us. They believe & are in the work of regeneration.
Hebrews 12:4,5,6,7,8 Holy Spirit calls them His children & He's their Father, they belong to Him
Hebrews 12:9-11 afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby, & why? Because they have become partakers of His holiness, the Divine Nature
So in the cleansing work of making holy, their growing from faith to faith & from glory to glory being brought to the baptismal of the Holy Spirit to be dead unto sin, born again of the incorruptible Seed.
Friend,
The path is straight & the gate is narrow indeed that leads to life & few there be that find it, for some then, its to narrow for them to enter. Yet our Leader has plainly mark the path for us, He takes us by the hand & leads us in the very same path that He Himself walked in, wherein He received of the Father all His glory, & so shall we, for all that would believe all things are possible. Isa 42:16 the just Rom 1:17
Its not from the studying of the letter, as one would for any other endeavor, by the art of human science, but a total resolution of one spirit to empty oneself & be guided & taught of God's Spirit John 1:9Titus 2:11 within one's own conscience. The Immanuel of God, who is within us.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3Psalms 24:3,4Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14Jeremiah 3:22Hosea 6:1,2
Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40Acts 28:27
Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children
He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,
Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.
There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.
The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.
God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out
& why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.
thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1
Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11
Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"
one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.
your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God
The Grace of God that appears to all mankind, begotten Paul & he declares in 1Cor 15:10 made what he now is.
What the Apostles received by the Revelation of Jesus Christ from His Grace appearance, they wrote down in the Epistle's that bares their name, & they believed & attain unto this knowledge by the diligent exercising thereof Hebrews 5:14Hebrews 12:11Philippians 3:16
Here's a small unfolding of His Grace / Light
They let Patience James 1:4,25James 5:111Pet 5:9,10
Make you Perfect Hebrews 13:21
Be ye Perfect Matt 5:48 indicating this perfection is the same as the Father, there's not a different standard of holiness for mankind describe here.
The angel declared to Mary, Matt 1:21 not in their sin!
Folks,
Everything that God does is perfect, do you really believe that He would sent His only begotten Son to suffer all that He did for our sakes, & it not be a perfect restoration for His beloved creations.
I tell you by the Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Holy Ghost it's goes beyond the state of Adam innocents before he fell
Rom 6:3-5 the newness of life spoken of here is the likeness of His resurrection life & that is attain by working of His Divine Power 2Pet 1:2-4
I'm talking Grace, here now in this life. Don't be deceived, it's accompanies all that Christ experience, 1Pet 2:21 this too is apart of being make in His image & likeness, walking as He walk, the Apostles final got it after Pentecost, being baptized unto His death. This is when 1John 1:1-5 truly came into spiritual experiential experience. John 7:17
John 4:23,24 True worship is doing His will
& that will is reveal by His Grace / Light appearance in your heart. 2Cor 4:6,7
Revelation 11 is wonderful and very deeply really. The content of verse 2 was preached two times by JESUS. First in Luke 21:24, 2nd after His ascension-Rev.11:2-and JESUS reveals that the COURT is given unto the Gentiles and(in the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th) the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months. But I ask, how? Well, the Dragon will give(to the Beast of sea)his Power, and his Seat(in Jerusalem spiritually called Sodom and Egypt), and great Authority.
Simultaneously,in the other hand,JESUS will give POWER unto His two witnesses,these are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth(before the Holy Spirit,Paraclete,Comfort- Jn 16:12-15).wo candlesticks are two Churches-Gentile Church and Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:23.The two olive trees are the two sources of OIL of the two Churches-the OT and NT.JESUS revealed that the two Churches receive Power(verse 6)to shut heaven,that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:and have POWER over waters(over peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues-verse15-18)to turn them to blood,and to smite the earth with all plagues,as often as they will-(The righteous Judgment of GOD-1Cor.6:2-3)-and they shall prophesy ALSO 42 months,equal period the holy city being trodden by the Gentiles.
The worst will be in the 2nd half of the last week.The Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit -Rev.13:11-18&Ez.21:25- Matthew 24:15-25- shall make WAR against them(against the two Churches-two candlesticks),and shall overcome them,and kill them-Rev.11:7->END of the OT and NT arrived).They that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another;because these two witness/prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
But after three days and an half the spirit of life from GOD entered into them,and they stood upon their feet;and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
I did notice that Jema. In fact, as you know, Jesus repeated this Truth twice (also in John 5:25), where He adds, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS....". I wonder if Jesus is also referring to one of the great signs at His coming Crucifixion, when He would yield up His Spirit, & when 'the graves were opened, and many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose, & came out of their graves...'. So, two mighty events: at His Crucifixion & then at His Coming. Lifeless, corrupt bodies might lie in the grave, but the spirits of just men made perfect ( Hebrews 12:23) & to the Church of the Firstborn, are promised to live forever in the presence of God their Father.
We know certain things to be true of God for one reason: in His mercy He has condescended to reveal some of His qualities to us. God is spirit, by nature intangible ( John 4:24). God is One, but He exists as three Persons-God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ( Matthew 3:16-17). God is infinite ( 1 Timothy 1:17), incomparable ( 2 Samuel 7:22), and unchanging ( Malachi 3:6). God exists everywhere ( Psalm 139:7-12), knows everything ( Psalm 147:5; Isaiah 40:28), and has all power and authority ( Ephesians 1; Revelation 19:6).
Who is God? - His Work
We cannot understand God apart from His works, because what God does flows from who He is. Here is an abbreviated list of God's works, past, present, and future: God created the world ( Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 42:5); He actively sustains the world ( Colossians 1:17); He is executing His eternal plan ( Ephesians 1:11) which involves the redemption of man from the curse of sin and death ( Galatians 3:13-14); He draws people to Christ ( John 6:44); He disciplines His children ( Hebrews 12:6); and He will judge the world ( Revelation 20:11-15).
Who is God? - A Relationship with Him
In the Person of the Son, God became incarnate ( John 1:14). The Son of God became the Son of Man and is therefore the "bridge" between God and man ( John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). It is only through the Son that we can have forgiveness of sins ( Ephesians 1:7), reconciliation with God ( John 15:15; Romans 5:10), and eternal salvation ( 2 Timothy 2:10). In Jesus Christ "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" ( Colossians 2:9). So, to really know who God is, all we have to do is look at Jesus.
Jerry that is much of what we know about God and that probably don't scratch the surface on GOD!
The face value of the statement you quoted does not imply additions or subtraction to the words of God as I previously stated to you, so it was not for face value that you responsed.
in your apology, you state "if" you misrepresented their beliefs, there's no 'if" to it.
David your apology is evasive & shifty, then you reinforce your statement of your beliefs, in all this, it makes this attempted apology void. its the same tactics you colored over your erroneous statement of "visions & dream" with GiGi.
Psalms 15:1-4
Friend, I been here, God would not let me near Him, the intimacy & closeness that I intensely craved, to really know Him. as a Father knows a son, & son knows his father was shut to me, His all discerning eyes penetrate my thickest covering, I had to come clean every wit, before His wrath was remove & remission of the transgression of granted & fellowship was restored. Hebrews 12:11
Then came I to a more enlightened understanding of King David prayer, Psalms 51:6 & I rejoice in His judgments for they were meant for my cleansing to bring me back to the intimate fellowship & only became my condemnation when I reject them.
I learnt by experience that the difference between "all that are call & the few that are chosen", is how we respond to Him in these crucial moments in our relationship with Him & our fellow human beings.
I pray that this helps in making a clean break, remember who we war against Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule & reign in the hearts & minds of mankind, they have been doing this for a long time, & to be honest, if we look at the condition of the world & church today, they're pretty good at it, so we must not remain ignorant of their devices.
A love for the Truth in the inward parts alone defeats them, who is Christ, the Armor, Wisdom & Power of God.
23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Further insight. As Ephesians 1:6 states we are to be made acceptable in the beloved. As far as us "accepting" Christ; that is not Biblical as James 2:19 warns about God. Christ is more than Savior; He is Lord and Master; whether we acknowledge it or not there are only two alternatives ( Matthew 21:44). His Sheep hear His voice; the goats do not. ( John 10:27).
This "committing" of men it would seem would involve the Godhead living within someone and being sealed with the Spirit. It would involve chastising which Hebrews 12:8 in King James brings out pretty strongly in regard to those not in Christ who are "bastards."
Therefore Jesus had to do constant "weeding" out; and this would involve challenging statements; parables; and other means.
Jesus in Luke 16:15 warned that what was esteemed or honorable among men was an abomination to God. That is different than what Jesus Himself did when He was praised in Luke 2:52 for His growth in wisdom and stature in terms of how He "gained favor" at that time. That shows His humility in the 30 or so years; taking up the majority of His earthly life being submissive to His parents (unlike the Pharisees who found ways through their religious piety to disrespect parents for the sake of their own material gain).
Jesus loved His own so much that He made sure that He was the atoning sacrifice on the cross through His own volition; and death could not hold Him. (see John 10:18). It was a miracle in itself that He survived all the attempts on His life (including Gethsemene) through supernatural assistance so that He could make it to the cross to die at the set time and place. No one in scripture is said to be amazed at these acts
He further open me, I began practicing being still & quiet before the Lord & waiting upon Him, during one of these exercises, He opened my understanding concerning these 2 seeds within me, You remember the cartoon where there would be an angel on the right shoulder & a devil represent on the left shoulder of the cartoonist, the angel would encourage him to do what is right & good, & the devil influence him to what was evil & bad. Well this is what actually goes on within our hearts & who we obey is whom we serve & who temple we are, I always thought it was me, myself thinking these thoughts whether good or bad, I did not comprehend that I was just a vessel to be move & animated by these two great powers of the universe. There's no me, myself & I, it either Light or darkness animating us.
After this revelation I was convinced & start exercising this Word of Righteousness in the discerning between good & evil within. The heart is the birthing room of thoughts, as they are birth & brought forth we become conscious & aware of them. Thus Paul says 2Cor 10:3-6Ephesians 6:12
Here is where God works out our salvation. Hebrews 12:6-11
For 27 yrs I attend church, Assembly of God, Baptist, Full Gospel, Church of Faith, etc; not one of them spoke specifically concerning these things
I searched, fasted, studied the letter, all that was available thru man in this present day Christianity. Nothing could satisfy me, set me free or remove the veil from the eyes of my heart. God is our Father, in my heart thinking I should know Him like I know my natural father, this didn't become a reality until God lead me to the writing of these Quakers of the 17th Century & as time pass & I continue to grow in Grace, the possession of this reality becomes more clearer & precious in my eyes, Blessed Him for His tender mercies & longsuffering love toward me.
God has & continues to fulfill His word to me, Isa 42:16 all by the grace & truth that came by Jesus Christ. John 1:16John 1:9
Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the GRACE OF GOD: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Hebrews 11
Hebrews 12:1,2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, LOOKING UNTO JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
What I been given by the Spirit, & Scriptures is that the OT is our example.
God was ready to bring Israel into possession of the promise land, then after their 40yrs of wandering, they enter & came into a measure of it, but they stalled again & did not drive out all of there enemies, through doubt & unbelief, Hebrews 10:19 & the pleasures & comforts 1John 2:16 as then so now!
You say "Definitely not the 2nd case" they're cleaned & are continuously being clean. There is a state of Grace in the work of redemption that as one continues faithful to God, minding His reproofs & instructions in righteousness growing unto maturity in Christ, Hebrews 12:7-11 Hebrews 10:21-23 in judgment God remembers mercy. Our Father is a good one, He sees & discerns the intents of our hearts toward Him.
For instances, when we're learning how to walk, there's many falls, but at some point the child learns, doesn't fall any more. The same with coming out of sin, He takes us step by step, line upon line, bringing us through stages of deliverance. If we can overcome one sin, & continue in the exercising of His Grace we can eventually overcome all sin. Like the children of Israel we becomes content, grown fat, thus their miserable history of continuing in sin & ours. Oh, we keep up the outward appearance & lip service, but the inward work of His living Presence has ceased & now it just a memory of what He had wrought in us from past experiences, Grace is Divine Power to continue. 1Thess 5:24
You say, because we have this sin nature, Not if we're born again, 2Cor 5:17, His Spirit of Grace has brought us through the regeneration & renewing of the Holy Spirit unto the new creature, created in Ephesians 4:24Col 3:10. By His Spirit of Grace, the Cross, the old nature has been deny, mortify & finally crucify Rom 6:6,7 & We have become partakers 2Pet 1:3,4
Its very true, as you stated we, in & of ourselves we cannot stop sinning, its a hopeless situation. But with God all things are possible! Jeremiah 32:27
Jesus stated, John 7:17,18 Meaning; if one is practicing in their lives the doctrines of faith they believe & its not having the results the Word of God clearly states, then their doctrine & faith is not of God & their speaking of themselves.Their faith is not Hebrews 12:2Matt 7:14
Friend anyone who would not be prejudice, can perceive that throughtout the Scriptures God is calling His people to be holy.
He kick Lucifier out of heaven when he sinned, He put Adam & Eve out of paradise when they sinned, He kick the nation of Israel out of the promise land when they continue sinning. Do you really believe He's going to allow anyone into His holy Kingdom that's a sinner? Especially now that He has sent His Son, if He was going to allow sin into heaven, Jesus could have avoided that horrible humiliation & vicious suffering at the hands of ungodly men.
No, my friend, sinners will not enter the kingdom of God, it not happenning,
Last par; HEAVY LOAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS, it an evident token that they have not come to the True Jesus Matt 11:28 because He's the John 1:29
I kindly request that you read No Cross No Crown William Penn, Chap 1-8 & serious consider what discover in these pages.
freely on the net, No Cross No Crown project gutenberg
Thanks Frankie J for your comments. The question then is, 'how do we fulfil all the requirements of the Law?" We know that Jesus truly did so; the only One Who did it perfectly & completely. But how do we do it?
Other questions: what is the meaning & implications of: the "New Covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"? ( Hebrews 8:13). And "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"? ( Hebrews 12:24).
When we compare the great worth of the Covenant that Christ brought us through His shed Blood, how do ever resort to any of the elements of the Old Covenant (whether the Ten Commandments or sacrificial requirements & observances)? The Old Covenant held men (Israel) in bondage leading to death - the New Covenant gave men liberty & eternal life, & to fully know & obey God by the working of the Holy Spirit in them. The contrast is exceedingly clear - maybe our minds are still caged into upholding a Law never designed to give us life.
Galatians 3:19: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." There was a time limit for the Old Law to Israel: "UNTIL THE SEED should come to whom the promise was made". And "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" ( Galatians 3:21).
I see that only Jesus could fulfil the Law & by His Death, bring in the New Covenant which abrogated that Old Law. The New Covenant administered by the Holy Spirit cannot be fused together with the Old Covenant that kept men bound to a yoke of strenuous law-keeping that gave no power to overcome & experience the joy of life in the power of the Holy Spirit. To the Jew, I think this release is truly life-changing - maybe not so to Gentiles, not given that Law.
"you don't know why I would bring up this matter, as it pertains to our discussion. When in Truth, it reaches to the very heart of it.
Going to the letter, in Hebrew or Greek etc; as you quoted & spoke from, comes from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy, which makes Mark 7:13, which sprang up in the Apostasy. Isa 55:8,9;
Whereas coming to the Spirit, our Teacher; The Word Rom 10:8; that comes Rom 10:17; within us, produces the fruit, the Word intended Isa 55;11; Isa 14:27;
Bringing this part of the conversation to a conclusion, by giving "the cause & effect of the learning from the letter, verses being taught by God Himself.
1Cor 2:10 which is freely & lavishly given unto us in Christ. Col 2:2,3; Proverbs 8:14;
You said; you don't subscribe to this type of application of sanctification ; citing verses with the word meaning; its plain to me that your faith is coming from books, & not our Teacher; who is Hebrews 12:2. Your trying to understand spiritual things by carnal means, Thus this faith you have is 2Timothy 3:7 Meaning; it will never bring one to the experiential knowledge of God; in Spirit & in Truth. Matt 11:27; For God is a Spirit & only by His Spirit is He manifested & known.
Jeremiah 31:33,34; New Covenant, he's prophesying, not that he partook of it, 1Peter 1:10; & yet he was cleansed & holy under the gospel of his dispensation 2 Peter 1:21; as many were Luke 1:5,6;
Again; what God requires of us, is to walk upright in the knowledge that He has given us.
Thank you for your kind apology, no offense taken, just a misunderstanding. Believe me, in this slow progressive work of sanctification, I've have had many misunderstanding & faltering, receiving His reproofs & admonishments, I've learnt Daniel 4:37; I love the way He gets to me. He always "hit the nail on the head" so to speak,& why? Daniel 2:22, Psalms 36:9;
you have experience Him in Spirit, Chris (in the car)
David read Rev.12:5....The woman births the manchild which is the spirit of truth that is gonna rule all nations.....The spirit of truth is gonna reprove this world of sin and judgement and righteousness....Judgement means the Prince of this world (SATAN ) is gonna be judged thus the WORLD is gona be made clean by the manchild the H.G. That is gona rule all nations....Remember Isaiah 11:5...Knowledge is gonna cover this earth as the waters covers the seas....A lil one is gona become a 1000 and a small one a strong nation....I the Lord will hasten it in its time....An Israel of God is on the horizon soon as the Sower will go forth to sow his precious seed in humanity.....The woman giving birth is humanity....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains.
Several of the prophets saw the whole world at rest and full of his Glory..... Hebrews 12:22.....You are come unto Mt Sion the city of the living God, That HEAVENLY Jerusalem...To a hugh host of angels....But this city is with in us,...its the H.G. Which is the Kingdom of God....The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in joy and peace in the H.G..... Rev. 11:15....The Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our lord and his Christ.....And has made us unto our GODS AS KINGS AND PRIEST that we shall reign on the earth.... Rev. 5 i think...ok gbu
This is likely because it is talking about God chastising his own (or His servants); He "scourges every son that He receives" as well as chastising them ( Hebrews 12:6). Better are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy ( Proverbs 27:6).
We see what appears in Luke to be a discussion of those fellowservants who are warning about the coming of the Lord and are "beaten by their fellow servants" ( Luke 12:45). We see that verse 39 and 46 indicate a house being "broken into" and verse 46 talks about being assigned in a place with the hypocrites and cut into pieces. That would be metaphorical language fitting into missing the Rapture; and going through the fire of the Tribulation from the way I see it.
Isaiah 10:5-6 discusses the "Assyrian" God's method of chastisement (one code word for Antichrist) who is used to judge a "hypocritical nation." Hence there is ample reason to at least ascribe this message to Israel as a rebellious nation who doesn't recognize their King until they realize that the one they trusted in turns against them.
There are ignorant people in churches today who God may still save or make their garments white in the Tribulation. Whether these are left behind believers or new believers as part of the witnessing campaign of the 144,000 it is martyrdom that is the test of all who truly believe in Christ. Those who know better and yet are truly His own of course (as with teachers) have a greater responsibility; hence the Lord will have to deal with them more harshly. I look at the Tribulation as being a massive campaign by God for fruit production; which He will get one way or another to His satisfaction. The word Tribulation apparently is related to "Tribulum" or the wheat being ripened and harvested rapidly in the blistering sun. It is good to look at such events in relation to the big picture; the worst persecution brings the greatest glory; and will be used to turn Israel back to the true Savior ( Zech 12:12; Rev. 1:7).
Ecclesiastes 7:10 warns us about looking to how things were better in the old days. It is easy to be nostalgic about the glories of our youth but the truth is all are as a fading flower ( Isaiah 28:4); and we soon return to the dust from whence we came ( Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Taken to the utmost level; we can hold onto affections for those who have passed on who are not clearly followers of Christ and we risk being deceived by what is called familiar spirits; which is demons impersonating loved ones and somehow giving us comfort in what we assume is their presence. It is important to realize that in our fallen nature we are at risk for deception and must not put our confidence in the flesh. Our comfort in this world must not be due to material possessions; or anything else transient of this world. Ecclesiastes is a good book to read as to the conclusion of the matter is fearing God and keeping His commandments after the many things of vanity this world has to offer; surely Solomon would know having squandered his walk with God by doing things God warned against such as multiplying gold and silver and horses; marrying foreign wives; etc.
In the US today; we also can't expect the country to flourish as it did in the past. The only way that could happen is with a large scale revival and repentance would have to begin in the church. Being the last days; apostacy is to be expected and clearly after the brevity of the change of heart after September 11 2001 hearts have only hardened further. Our youth today and the state of the world in general is well on its way to the prophesied Tribulation. Should we have offspring or even a spouse that remains faithful to God is truly a blessing; but the contrary shouldn't lead us to assume we are unfaithful.
Hebrews 12:1 gives us good instruction on casting aside every weight and sin that is holding us back. Let us fix our eyes on things above ( Colossians 3:2).
Psalm 68:6 talks about setting the lonely in families; and Psalm 27:10 says that even if parents forsake us God will take us up (rough meaning).
From my experience; it seems in the Reformed circles the family unit is held in high esteem and in the denomination I was last in before I had to move there basically was a network of extended families that pretty much arranged for favorable meetings for young people to fellowship and often marry those who were at these events; thus pretty much continuing the expansion of the church. Other denominations tend to be more or less dominated by those in their own nuclear families and tend somewhat less to invite strangers into conversations or to their homes.
Whatever the accuracy of my own assessment; we are adopted sons and daughters according to Romans in many passages; Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4:6-7. It is commonplace; nonetheless whether with our blood relatives or church family to default to hanging out with those we find interesting in one form or another and often neglecting the ministry such as rebuke; exhortation and encouragement when necessary. We see passages such as "He rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19; Hebrews 12:6 and others) and tend to only think of God Himself doing that work. However; we are to exercise such behaviors as 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us to. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep likewise ( Romans 12:15). To behave this way first we need to have a listening mindset; rather than spend much time with needless chatter when we fellowship. Again; the reformers seem to have a better handle on that with some not allowing any discussion apart from the Lord on Sundays. I'm not setting a legalistic mandate here; but suggesting that such boundaries eliminate useless banter; and worse a sin of omission not ministering to those in need who are too polite to interrupt discussion about sports teams; work exploits or just general complaining of the state of affairs in the world today.
Do all believers repent at the end before death? The answer is no, they don't.
The parable of the 10 virgins tells us that if just before Jesus comes for us (this can be also regarded as an individual departure through physical death as well as the rapture of the church as a whole) we must have light(sanctification) in ourselves. Otherwise we will not enter the marriage ( Matthew 25:1-12). Read what Jesus told them, He doesn't know them. But they were virgins(sanctified), they were expecting the Lord with the rest. Yes but they had a troubled christian life and they were not ready when Jesus came. Jesus doesn't recognize them, He only recognizes His children who look like Him in the character, it is them that He considers true children, the rest are just "bastards", Hebrews 12:7-8.
In the parable of the vine, John 15:1-8, in verse 2 says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." in verse 6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.". I don't think a further explanation is needed
Finally in 2 Peter 1:5-11 what christians should try to succeed in their christian life. in verse 10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"
Make our calling sure? Doing these things we will not fail? And here we come to what really all that is about.
It all begins with the relationship between grace and good works. There is where it all starts. Many christians through the ages could not understand that relationship. People like Luther even rejected Jame's epistle as fake because it didn't fit their beliefs.. For some grace has nothing to do with any human work at all. So they rejected good works, so what a man does bad or good has no consequence to their salvation.
Introduction to the concept of eternal assurance; "once saved always saved".
I have seen currently individuals who are knowledgeable in the Word and who seem to love the Lord who argue that we can lose our salvation. I don't feel comfortable fellowshipping where that is the standard doctrine; although the conviction level for holiness seems commendable to me. Nonetheless; the enemy an cause havoc for those who would be in despair and perhaps self destructive over that type of message. Equally as concerning are those who are allowing certain sins; particularly those who support a lifestyle of sin in the church today holding onto what many call a "hyper grace" mentality. First and foremost; of course we are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and DO something about it if not. ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who are His; of course willl hear His voice ( John 10:16) and be taught by God ( John 6:45).
Blessed assurance is something which must transcend this world; and our love for God supersede any other affections and loyalties for us to be a true disciple of God ( Matt. 10:37-38). If we love Him we will obey His commandments ( John 14:15); this is a verse I have repeated quite often lately on this site.
I would make a basic comment at present that those who are His sense His love; and also recognize that when being chastised ( Hebrews 12:6). When the Spirit is grieved ( Eph 4:30-31) a true follower of Christ will be aware of it; after all He has made His (actually OUR) abode in these individuals ( John 14:23). It is also true that those who are unbelievers cannot love God but they certainly can fear Him. In today's society; however it is likely that such boldness in rebellion in the world is tied into the lack of fear of the Lord in churches. The compromised Gospel and lifestyles today I will tackle in future posts.
The book of John is something I have already covered sometime last year in detail as to the many examples proving Predestination.
Jimbob no offence to you but also fire is just symbolic language....As Rev. 11:5 tells us if any man hurts any of these fire comes out of their mouths and destroys ( kills their enemies )....But its not a literal fire but a spiritual fire which is the H.G. AS OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.. Hebrews 12:29 kjv....That is gonna consume mans evil and adamic nature ....If ya don't understand symbolic language you will not see that the Kingdoms of this world are gonna become the kingdoms of our lord and his Christ...Thus the clouds are just symbolic language for folks that have that living water..That latter rain doctrine which is spirit...That is gonna flood this earth with his spirit....I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh... Joel 2:28..And Isaiah 11..Of course this knowledge he saw covering this earth was an intimacy....Resulting in a birth of Christ in us....As Jeremiah 30:6 ...he saw all men in travail and birth pains...Thats y he has to know us that the good seed of the sower will be sown in our hearts....And she brought forth a man child that is gona rule all nations....Now y wd we need to be caught up to to the literal clouds when the kingdoms of this world are gona become the Kingdoms of our lord and his Christ...And the manchild which is the H.G.is gonna rule all nations....And jesus tells us of that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and judgement and righteousness....Thus a literal rapture wd kill all these scriptures of the earth at rest and becoming full of his Glory....Seed time and harvest for ever .... Isaiah 6:3 The angels are saying Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty for the whole earth is full of his GLORY....Jimbob yes truth is important but if we took your doctrine of a literal rapture in literal clouds we wd have to eliminate 90% of the bible....And there wd be no need for the manchild to Rule all nations....Or for the angel to preach the everlasting Gospel to all that dwell on the earth... Rev 14:6...ok lemme go...Jim GBU.
No, not in the frame of what you're implying.
Quoting you
There is a definition that's given to us here. It says we are in the flesh if we don't have Christ. If we are not "born again" we have an illegitimate claim at being a true believer.
Whereas, those who are born again do belong to Christ & has been gather unto the Gardener.
Yet those who are in the work of sanctification of the Spirit.
They are true believers too, & belong to Christ, having received of God the gift of faith, from hearing the Word of God in their hearts to the working out of their salvation,& by that gift of faith, they receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit Gal 3:2
Hebrews 12:1 wherefore lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us. They believe & are in the work of regeneration.
Hebrews 12:4,5,6,7,8 Holy Spirit calls them His children & He's their Father, they belong to Him
Hebrews 12:9-11 afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby, & why? Because they have become partakers of His holiness, the Divine Nature
So in the cleansing work of making holy, their growing from faith to faith & from glory to glory being brought to the baptismal of the Holy Spirit to be dead unto sin, born again of the incorruptible Seed.
Friend,
The path is straight & the gate is narrow indeed that leads to life & few there be that find it, for some then, its to narrow for them to enter. Yet our Leader has plainly mark the path for us, He takes us by the hand & leads us in the very same path that He Himself walked in, wherein He received of the Father all His glory, & so shall we, for all that would believe all things are possible. Isa 42:16 the just Rom 1:17
Its not from the studying of the letter, as one would for any other endeavor, by the art of human science, but a total resolution of one spirit to empty oneself & be guided & taught of God's Spirit John 1:9 Titus 2:11 within one's own conscience. The Immanuel of God, who is within us.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3 Psalms 24:3,4 Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
in love & truth
Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 3:22 Hosea 6:1,2
Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40 Acts 28:27
Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children
He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,
Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.
There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.
The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.
God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out
& why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.
thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1
Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11
Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"
one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.
your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God
Ephesians 5:13, therefore, Ephesians 5:14
In Love & Truth
The Grace of God that appears to all mankind, begotten Paul & he declares in 1Cor 15:10 made what he now is.
What the Apostles received by the Revelation of Jesus Christ from His Grace appearance, they wrote down in the Epistle's that bares their name, & they believed & attain unto this knowledge by the diligent exercising thereof Hebrews 5:14 Hebrews 12:11 Philippians 3:16
Here's a small unfolding of His Grace / Light
They let Patience James 1:4,25 James 5:11 1Pet 5:9,10
Make you Perfect Hebrews 13:21
Be ye Perfect Matt 5:48 indicating this perfection is the same as the Father, there's not a different standard of holiness for mankind describe here.
The angel declared to Mary, Matt 1:21 not in their sin!
Folks,
Everything that God does is perfect, do you really believe that He would sent His only begotten Son to suffer all that He did for our sakes, & it not be a perfect restoration for His beloved creations.
I tell you by the Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Holy Ghost it's goes beyond the state of Adam innocents before he fell
Rom 6:3-5 the newness of life spoken of here is the likeness of His resurrection life & that is attain by working of His Divine Power 2Pet 1:2-4
I'm talking Grace, here now in this life. Don't be deceived, it's accompanies all that Christ experience, 1Pet 2:21 this too is apart of being make in His image & likeness, walking as He walk, the Apostles final got it after Pentecost, being baptized unto His death. This is when 1John 1:1-5 truly came into spiritual experiential experience. John 7:17
John 4:23,24 True worship is doing His will
& that will is reveal by His Grace / Light appearance in your heart. 2Cor 4:6,7
John 1:29 ...... Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the SIN of the world.
Hebrews 12:1 ... an the SIN which doth so easily beset us ......
What is this singular SIN that so easily besets God's people, and Jesus said he will TAKE AWAY, because his blood covers all other sins.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of SIN.......
John 16:9 Of SIN, because they BELIEVE NOT .... (the Word of God)......
Philippians 1:29 ... it is GIVEN TO YOU on the behalf of Christ to BELIEVE
God Bless YOU!
Revelation 11 is wonderful and very deeply really. The content of verse 2 was preached two times by JESUS. First in Luke 21:24, 2nd after His ascension-Rev.11:2-and JESUS reveals that the COURT is given unto the Gentiles and(in the FIRST half of the last week, week 70th) the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months. But I ask, how? Well, the Dragon will give(to the Beast of sea)his Power, and his Seat(in Jerusalem spiritually called Sodom and Egypt), and great Authority.
Simultaneously,in the other hand,JESUS will give POWER unto His two witnesses,these are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth(before the Holy Spirit,Paraclete,Comfort- Jn 16:12-15).wo candlesticks are two Churches-Gentile Church and Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:23.The two olive trees are the two sources of OIL of the two Churches-the OT and NT.JESUS revealed that the two Churches receive Power(verse 6)to shut heaven,that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:and have POWER over waters(over peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues-verse15-18)to turn them to blood,and to smite the earth with all plagues,as often as they will-(The righteous Judgment of GOD-1Cor.6:2-3)-and they shall prophesy ALSO 42 months,equal period the holy city being trodden by the Gentiles.
The worst will be in the 2nd half of the last week.The Beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit -Rev.13:11-18&Ez.21:25- Matthew 24:15-25- shall make WAR against them(against the two Churches-two candlesticks),and shall overcome them,and kill them-Rev.11:7->END of the OT and NT arrived).They that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another;because these two witness/prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
But after three days and an half the spirit of life from GOD entered into them,and they stood upon their feet;and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
continues below
No apologies necessary. Thanks to you and Jimbob for the 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 12:4 verses.
One thing I know for a certainty is that God did not choose words or phrases idly as He has wrote the Bible. We must compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible if we hope to come to truth. We must always be willing to examine any understanding we may have in the light of any verse or passage in the Bible that deals with the question at hand.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it is always easy to come to truth. It is often very difficult. And if we begin to isolate verses and passages from the rest of the Bible or approach a question based on the wisdom of men (let God be True, but every man a liar, Rom 3:4) we can very quickly and easily be led down a wrong path.
The Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must always be mindful that it is God Himself who must open our understanding and give us ears to hear as we seek truth from His Holy Word, the Bible. And that He does this on His own timetable and for His own purposes.
I would need to further study the relationship between Soul and Spirit as God uses these terms throughout the Bible before arriving at a distinction between the two.
At this point, I don't see anything in these two verses that would change my understanding of 1) the Spiritual condition of Mankind apart from God's mercy in Salvation, nor 2) what happens to a True Believer when they become Born Again, nor 3) what happens to a True Believer when their Body dies Physically, nor 4) what happens to a True Believer at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
I have stated what I believe God has declared regarding these teachings in many of my comments, along with some of the scriptural references dealing with these questions. All of which are ultimately speaking to aspects of Salvation itself and how God deals with those whom He saves.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
Part 5.
Who is God? - His Nature
We know certain things to be true of God for one reason: in His mercy He has condescended to reveal some of His qualities to us. God is spirit, by nature intangible ( John 4:24). God is One, but He exists as three Persons-God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ( Matthew 3:16-17). God is infinite ( 1 Timothy 1:17), incomparable ( 2 Samuel 7:22), and unchanging ( Malachi 3:6). God exists everywhere ( Psalm 139:7-12), knows everything ( Psalm 147:5; Isaiah 40:28), and has all power and authority ( Ephesians 1; Revelation 19:6).
Who is God? - His Work
We cannot understand God apart from His works, because what God does flows from who He is. Here is an abbreviated list of God's works, past, present, and future: God created the world ( Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 42:5); He actively sustains the world ( Colossians 1:17); He is executing His eternal plan ( Ephesians 1:11) which involves the redemption of man from the curse of sin and death ( Galatians 3:13-14); He draws people to Christ ( John 6:44); He disciplines His children ( Hebrews 12:6); and He will judge the world ( Revelation 20:11-15).
Who is God? - A Relationship with Him
In the Person of the Son, God became incarnate ( John 1:14). The Son of God became the Son of Man and is therefore the "bridge" between God and man ( John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). It is only through the Son that we can have forgiveness of sins ( Ephesians 1:7), reconciliation with God ( John 15:15; Romans 5:10), and eternal salvation ( 2 Timothy 2:10). In Jesus Christ "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" ( Colossians 2:9). So, to really know who God is, all we have to do is look at Jesus.
Jerry that is much of what we know about God and that probably don't scratch the surface on GOD!
I HOPE THIS HELPS.
GOD BLESS.
The face value of the statement you quoted does not imply additions or subtraction to the words of God as I previously stated to you, so it was not for face value that you responsed.
in your apology, you state "if" you misrepresented their beliefs, there's no 'if" to it.
David your apology is evasive & shifty, then you reinforce your statement of your beliefs, in all this, it makes this attempted apology void. its the same tactics you colored over your erroneous statement of "visions & dream" with GiGi.
Psalms 15:1-4
Friend, I been here, God would not let me near Him, the intimacy & closeness that I intensely craved, to really know Him. as a Father knows a son, & son knows his father was shut to me, His all discerning eyes penetrate my thickest covering, I had to come clean every wit, before His wrath was remove & remission of the transgression of granted & fellowship was restored. Hebrews 12:11
Then came I to a more enlightened understanding of King David prayer, Psalms 51:6 & I rejoice in His judgments for they were meant for my cleansing to bring me back to the intimate fellowship & only became my condemnation when I reject them.
I learnt by experience that the difference between "all that are call & the few that are chosen", is how we respond to Him in these crucial moments in our relationship with Him & our fellow human beings.
I pray that this helps in making a clean break, remember who we war against Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule & reign in the hearts & minds of mankind, they have been doing this for a long time, & to be honest, if we look at the condition of the world & church today, they're pretty good at it, so we must not remain ignorant of their devices.
A love for the Truth in the inward parts alone defeats them, who is Christ, the Armor, Wisdom & Power of God.
Proverbs 18:12
In love & Truth
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Further insight. As Ephesians 1:6 states we are to be made acceptable in the beloved. As far as us "accepting" Christ; that is not Biblical as James 2:19 warns about God. Christ is more than Savior; He is Lord and Master; whether we acknowledge it or not there are only two alternatives ( Matthew 21:44). His Sheep hear His voice; the goats do not. ( John 10:27).
This "committing" of men it would seem would involve the Godhead living within someone and being sealed with the Spirit. It would involve chastising which Hebrews 12:8 in King James brings out pretty strongly in regard to those not in Christ who are "bastards."
Therefore Jesus had to do constant "weeding" out; and this would involve challenging statements; parables; and other means.
Jesus in Luke 16:15 warned that what was esteemed or honorable among men was an abomination to God. That is different than what Jesus Himself did when He was praised in Luke 2:52 for His growth in wisdom and stature in terms of how He "gained favor" at that time. That shows His humility in the 30 or so years; taking up the majority of His earthly life being submissive to His parents (unlike the Pharisees who found ways through their religious piety to disrespect parents for the sake of their own material gain).
Jesus loved His own so much that He made sure that He was the atoning sacrifice on the cross through His own volition; and death could not hold Him. (see John 10:18). It was a miracle in itself that He survived all the attempts on His life (including Gethsemene) through supernatural assistance so that He could make it to the cross to die at the set time and place. No one in scripture is said to be amazed at these acts
He further open me, I began practicing being still & quiet before the Lord & waiting upon Him, during one of these exercises, He opened my understanding concerning these 2 seeds within me, You remember the cartoon where there would be an angel on the right shoulder & a devil represent on the left shoulder of the cartoonist, the angel would encourage him to do what is right & good, & the devil influence him to what was evil & bad. Well this is what actually goes on within our hearts & who we obey is whom we serve & who temple we are, I always thought it was me, myself thinking these thoughts whether good or bad, I did not comprehend that I was just a vessel to be move & animated by these two great powers of the universe. There's no me, myself & I, it either Light or darkness animating us.
After this revelation I was convinced & start exercising this Word of Righteousness in the discerning between good & evil within. The heart is the birthing room of thoughts, as they are birth & brought forth we become conscious & aware of them. Thus Paul says 2Cor 10:3-6 Ephesians 6:12
Here is where God works out our salvation. Hebrews 12:6-11
For 27 yrs I attend church, Assembly of God, Baptist, Full Gospel, Church of Faith, etc; not one of them spoke specifically concerning these things
I searched, fasted, studied the letter, all that was available thru man in this present day Christianity. Nothing could satisfy me, set me free or remove the veil from the eyes of my heart. God is our Father, in my heart thinking I should know Him like I know my natural father, this didn't become a reality until God lead me to the writing of these Quakers of the 17th Century & as time pass & I continue to grow in Grace, the possession of this reality becomes more clearer & precious in my eyes, Blessed Him for His tender mercies & longsuffering love toward me.
God has & continues to fulfill His word to me, Isa 42:16 all by the grace & truth that came by Jesus Christ. John 1:16 John 1:9
Hebrews 11
Hebrews 12:1,2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, LOOKING UNTO JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
What I been given by the Spirit, & Scriptures is that the OT is our example.
God was ready to bring Israel into possession of the promise land, then after their 40yrs of wandering, they enter & came into a measure of it, but they stalled again & did not drive out all of there enemies, through doubt & unbelief, Hebrews 10:19 & the pleasures & comforts 1John 2:16 as then so now!
You say "Definitely not the 2nd case" they're cleaned & are continuously being clean. There is a state of Grace in the work of redemption that as one continues faithful to God, minding His reproofs & instructions in righteousness growing unto maturity in Christ, Hebrews 12:7-11 Hebrews 10:21-23 in judgment God remembers mercy. Our Father is a good one, He sees & discerns the intents of our hearts toward Him.
For instances, when we're learning how to walk, there's many falls, but at some point the child learns, doesn't fall any more. The same with coming out of sin, He takes us step by step, line upon line, bringing us through stages of deliverance. If we can overcome one sin, & continue in the exercising of His Grace we can eventually overcome all sin. Like the children of Israel we becomes content, grown fat, thus their miserable history of continuing in sin & ours. Oh, we keep up the outward appearance & lip service, but the inward work of His living Presence has ceased & now it just a memory of what He had wrought in us from past experiences, Grace is Divine Power to continue. 1Thess 5:24
1John 2:1 but then he moves on: 1John 3:9
You say, because we have this sin nature, Not if we're born again, 2Cor 5:17, His Spirit of Grace has brought us through the regeneration & renewing of the Holy Spirit unto the new creature, created in Ephesians 4:24 Col 3:10. By His Spirit of Grace, the Cross, the old nature has been deny, mortify & finally crucify Rom 6:6,7 & We have become partakers 2Pet 1:3,4
Its very true, as you stated we, in & of ourselves we cannot stop sinning, its a hopeless situation. But with God all things are possible! Jeremiah 32:27
Jesus stated, John 7:17,18 Meaning; if one is practicing in their lives the doctrines of faith they believe & its not having the results the Word of God clearly states, then their doctrine & faith is not of God & their speaking of themselves.Their faith is not Hebrews 12:2 Matt 7:14
Friend anyone who would not be prejudice, can perceive that throughtout the Scriptures God is calling His people to be holy.
He kick Lucifier out of heaven when he sinned, He put Adam & Eve out of paradise when they sinned, He kick the nation of Israel out of the promise land when they continue sinning. Do you really believe He's going to allow anyone into His holy Kingdom that's a sinner? Especially now that He has sent His Son, if He was going to allow sin into heaven, Jesus could have avoided that horrible humiliation & vicious suffering at the hands of ungodly men.
No, my friend, sinners will not enter the kingdom of God, it not happenning,
Last par; HEAVY LOAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS, it an evident token that they have not come to the True Jesus Matt 11:28 because He's the John 1:29
I kindly request that you read No Cross No Crown William Penn, Chap 1-8 & serious consider what discover in these pages.
freely on the net, No Cross No Crown project gutenberg
in love & truth
Other questions: what is the meaning & implications of: the "New Covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away"? ( Hebrews 8:13). And "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"? ( Hebrews 12:24).
When we compare the great worth of the Covenant that Christ brought us through His shed Blood, how do ever resort to any of the elements of the Old Covenant (whether the Ten Commandments or sacrificial requirements & observances)? The Old Covenant held men (Israel) in bondage leading to death - the New Covenant gave men liberty & eternal life, & to fully know & obey God by the working of the Holy Spirit in them. The contrast is exceedingly clear - maybe our minds are still caged into upholding a Law never designed to give us life.
Galatians 3:19: "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." There was a time limit for the Old Law to Israel: "UNTIL THE SEED should come to whom the promise was made". And "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" ( Galatians 3:21).
I see that only Jesus could fulfil the Law & by His Death, bring in the New Covenant which abrogated that Old Law. The New Covenant administered by the Holy Spirit cannot be fused together with the Old Covenant that kept men bound to a yoke of strenuous law-keeping that gave no power to overcome & experience the joy of life in the power of the Holy Spirit. To the Jew, I think this release is truly life-changing - maybe not so to Gentiles, not given that Law.
"you don't know why I would bring up this matter, as it pertains to our discussion. When in Truth, it reaches to the very heart of it.
Going to the letter, in Hebrew or Greek etc; as you quoted & spoke from, comes from the traditions & teaching of man, the wisdom that's from below, earthy, which makes Mark 7:13, which sprang up in the Apostasy. Isa 55:8,9;
Whereas coming to the Spirit, our Teacher; The Word Rom 10:8; that comes Rom 10:17; within us, produces the fruit, the Word intended Isa 55;11; Isa 14:27;
Bringing this part of the conversation to a conclusion, by giving "the cause & effect of the learning from the letter, verses being taught by God Himself.
1Cor 2:10 which is freely & lavishly given unto us in Christ. Col 2:2,3; Proverbs 8:14;
You said; you don't subscribe to this type of application of sanctification ; citing verses with the word meaning; its plain to me that your faith is coming from books, & not our Teacher; who is Hebrews 12:2. Your trying to understand spiritual things by carnal means, Thus this faith you have is 2Timothy 3:7 Meaning; it will never bring one to the experiential knowledge of God; in Spirit & in Truth. Matt 11:27; For God is a Spirit & only by His Spirit is He manifested & known.
Jeremiah 31:33,34; New Covenant, he's prophesying, not that he partook of it, 1Peter 1:10; & yet he was cleansed & holy under the gospel of his dispensation 2 Peter 1:21; as many were Luke 1:5,6;
Again; what God requires of us, is to walk upright in the knowledge that He has given us.
Thank you for your kind apology, no offense taken, just a misunderstanding. Believe me, in this slow progressive work of sanctification, I've have had many misunderstanding & faltering, receiving His reproofs & admonishments, I've learnt Daniel 4:37; I love the way He gets to me. He always "hit the nail on the head" so to speak,& why? Daniel 2:22, Psalms 36:9;
you have experience Him in Spirit, Chris (in the car)
in Love & Truth
Frankie J
Several of the prophets saw the whole world at rest and full of his Glory..... Hebrews 12:22.....You are come unto Mt Sion the city of the living God, That HEAVENLY Jerusalem...To a hugh host of angels....But this city is with in us,...its the H.G. Which is the Kingdom of God....The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in joy and peace in the H.G..... Rev. 11:15....The Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our lord and his Christ.....And has made us unto our GODS AS KINGS AND PRIEST that we shall reign on the earth.... Rev. 5 i think...ok gbu
We see what appears in Luke to be a discussion of those fellowservants who are warning about the coming of the Lord and are "beaten by their fellow servants" ( Luke 12:45). We see that verse 39 and 46 indicate a house being "broken into" and verse 46 talks about being assigned in a place with the hypocrites and cut into pieces. That would be metaphorical language fitting into missing the Rapture; and going through the fire of the Tribulation from the way I see it.
Isaiah 10:5-6 discusses the "Assyrian" God's method of chastisement (one code word for Antichrist) who is used to judge a "hypocritical nation." Hence there is ample reason to at least ascribe this message to Israel as a rebellious nation who doesn't recognize their King until they realize that the one they trusted in turns against them.
There are ignorant people in churches today who God may still save or make their garments white in the Tribulation. Whether these are left behind believers or new believers as part of the witnessing campaign of the 144,000 it is martyrdom that is the test of all who truly believe in Christ. Those who know better and yet are truly His own of course (as with teachers) have a greater responsibility; hence the Lord will have to deal with them more harshly. I look at the Tribulation as being a massive campaign by God for fruit production; which He will get one way or another to His satisfaction. The word Tribulation apparently is related to "Tribulum" or the wheat being ripened and harvested rapidly in the blistering sun. It is good to look at such events in relation to the big picture; the worst persecution brings the greatest glory; and will be used to turn Israel back to the true Savior ( Zech 12:12; Rev. 1:7).
Ecclesiastes 7:10 warns us about looking to how things were better in the old days. It is easy to be nostalgic about the glories of our youth but the truth is all are as a fading flower ( Isaiah 28:4); and we soon return to the dust from whence we came ( Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Taken to the utmost level; we can hold onto affections for those who have passed on who are not clearly followers of Christ and we risk being deceived by what is called familiar spirits; which is demons impersonating loved ones and somehow giving us comfort in what we assume is their presence. It is important to realize that in our fallen nature we are at risk for deception and must not put our confidence in the flesh. Our comfort in this world must not be due to material possessions; or anything else transient of this world. Ecclesiastes is a good book to read as to the conclusion of the matter is fearing God and keeping His commandments after the many things of vanity this world has to offer; surely Solomon would know having squandered his walk with God by doing things God warned against such as multiplying gold and silver and horses; marrying foreign wives; etc.
In the US today; we also can't expect the country to flourish as it did in the past. The only way that could happen is with a large scale revival and repentance would have to begin in the church. Being the last days; apostacy is to be expected and clearly after the brevity of the change of heart after September 11 2001 hearts have only hardened further. Our youth today and the state of the world in general is well on its way to the prophesied Tribulation. Should we have offspring or even a spouse that remains faithful to God is truly a blessing; but the contrary shouldn't lead us to assume we are unfaithful.
Hebrews 12:1 gives us good instruction on casting aside every weight and sin that is holding us back. Let us fix our eyes on things above ( Colossians 3:2).
From my experience; it seems in the Reformed circles the family unit is held in high esteem and in the denomination I was last in before I had to move there basically was a network of extended families that pretty much arranged for favorable meetings for young people to fellowship and often marry those who were at these events; thus pretty much continuing the expansion of the church. Other denominations tend to be more or less dominated by those in their own nuclear families and tend somewhat less to invite strangers into conversations or to their homes.
Whatever the accuracy of my own assessment; we are adopted sons and daughters according to Romans in many passages; Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4:6-7. It is commonplace; nonetheless whether with our blood relatives or church family to default to hanging out with those we find interesting in one form or another and often neglecting the ministry such as rebuke; exhortation and encouragement when necessary. We see passages such as "He rebukes all those He loves" ( Rev. 3:19; Hebrews 12:6 and others) and tend to only think of God Himself doing that work. However; we are to exercise such behaviors as 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us to. Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep likewise ( Romans 12:15). To behave this way first we need to have a listening mindset; rather than spend much time with needless chatter when we fellowship. Again; the reformers seem to have a better handle on that with some not allowing any discussion apart from the Lord on Sundays. I'm not setting a legalistic mandate here; but suggesting that such boundaries eliminate useless banter; and worse a sin of omission not ministering to those in need who are too polite to interrupt discussion about sports teams; work exploits or just general complaining of the state of affairs in the world today.
Do all believers repent at the end before death? The answer is no, they don't.
The parable of the 10 virgins tells us that if just before Jesus comes for us (this can be also regarded as an individual departure through physical death as well as the rapture of the church as a whole) we must have light(sanctification) in ourselves. Otherwise we will not enter the marriage ( Matthew 25:1-12). Read what Jesus told them, He doesn't know them. But they were virgins(sanctified), they were expecting the Lord with the rest. Yes but they had a troubled christian life and they were not ready when Jesus came. Jesus doesn't recognize them, He only recognizes His children who look like Him in the character, it is them that He considers true children, the rest are just "bastards", Hebrews 12:7-8.
In the parable of the vine, John 15:1-8, in verse 2 says "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." in verse 6 says, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.". I don't think a further explanation is needed
Finally in 2 Peter 1:5-11 what christians should try to succeed in their christian life. in verse 10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"
Make our calling sure? Doing these things we will not fail? And here we come to what really all that is about.
It all begins with the relationship between grace and good works. There is where it all starts. Many christians through the ages could not understand that relationship. People like Luther even rejected Jame's epistle as fake because it didn't fit their beliefs.. For some grace has nothing to do with any human work at all. So they rejected good works, so what a man does bad or good has no consequence to their salvation.
I have seen currently individuals who are knowledgeable in the Word and who seem to love the Lord who argue that we can lose our salvation. I don't feel comfortable fellowshipping where that is the standard doctrine; although the conviction level for holiness seems commendable to me. Nonetheless; the enemy an cause havoc for those who would be in despair and perhaps self destructive over that type of message. Equally as concerning are those who are allowing certain sins; particularly those who support a lifestyle of sin in the church today holding onto what many call a "hyper grace" mentality. First and foremost; of course we are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith and DO something about it if not. ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who are His; of course willl hear His voice ( John 10:16) and be taught by God ( John 6:45).
Blessed assurance is something which must transcend this world; and our love for God supersede any other affections and loyalties for us to be a true disciple of God ( Matt. 10:37-38). If we love Him we will obey His commandments ( John 14:15); this is a verse I have repeated quite often lately on this site.
I would make a basic comment at present that those who are His sense His love; and also recognize that when being chastised ( Hebrews 12:6). When the Spirit is grieved ( Eph 4:30-31) a true follower of Christ will be aware of it; after all He has made His (actually OUR) abode in these individuals ( John 14:23). It is also true that those who are unbelievers cannot love God but they certainly can fear Him. In today's society; however it is likely that such boldness in rebellion in the world is tied into the lack of fear of the Lord in churches. The compromised Gospel and lifestyles today I will tackle in future posts.
The book of John is something I have already covered sometime last year in detail as to the many examples proving Predestination.
WE are saved yet by FIRE ---- 1 Corinthians 3:13
Our God is a consuming FIRE ---- Hebrews 12:29
God is the WORD --- the word is GOD ---- John 1:1
I will baptise YOU with the HOLY GHOST and FIRE
You are BORN AGAIN by the WORD of GOD
Every time we read and study the WORD we are being judged and baptised with the FIRE OF THE LORD
FIRE is the judgement of GOD
Psalms 37:28 For the Lord loveth JUDGEMENT ....
2 Corinthians 5:10 .... we all must appear before he judgement seat .....
1 Peter 4:17 For the TIME IS COME that JUDGEMENT must begin at the HOUSE of the LORD
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ --- the WORD --- the SEED ---- the FIRE ---who is a son over his OWN HOUSE, whose House we are ...
The WORD of GOD is the FIRE OF GOD
And they were CAST ALIVE into the lake of fire --- the JUDGING WORD'S of GOD ----
You are save and born again by FIRE and WATER --- the living fire and the living water ---- the LAKE of FIRE ----
God bless you.