We find that the unfolding of God's salvation plan is in no sense haphazard or random, but that every aspect of that plan is worked out in time. We can't separate time from the law, they are inextricably linked together. Galatians 4:4 declares
"4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Today there are a number of people who are saying they know the timing of Christ's return. Whether God shall reveal the timing remains to be seen, but one thing is certain: Christ's return is imminent, and the time to make our calling and election sure is now.
Hebrews 2:3,4
"3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
2 Corinthians 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"
Romans 9:27,28 "27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel], and cut it short in righteousness: because a short [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel] will the Lord make upon the earth."
May the LORD open our spiritual eyes and ears as we search the scriptures, applying the principals that God Himself has laid out in His Word, the Bible. Praying that God, in His Mercy, might open our understanding. And that He might give us an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to that Word.
I agree with you that our all powerful God can give his spirit to a vessel and make him a sinless being.
But that sinless being
/Vessel would still be born of Adam and can only inherit what Adam has to offer. Death!
Adam was "MADE" a living soul, He didn't become one!
A living soul could never give life even if he was sinless.
Christ was a quickening (Life giving) Spirit. He didn't have to become one. HE WAS, AND "IS ONE"
Only the Son of God can make us Sons of God.
Any other person wouldn't be a Son of God!
Jesus had no Earthly Father.
So we should consider these scriptures to perhaps understand "Why a Son?"
Galatians 4:4-6.
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE ADOPTION OF SONS.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
John 1:12-13.
But as many as received him, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME:
WHICH WERE BORN, ((NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN)), ""BUT OF GOD"".
Romans 8:19-23. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Yes, Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and the line of David who was of the tribe of Judah, you can read the genealogy in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:21-38. Jesus the Son of God was made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4. Not sure about your question was Jesus a Jew? Today when we hear the word Jew it is taken to mean anyone who is of the religion of Judaism regardless of their genealogy.
The same when we hear the word Gentile or Gentiles, we think of anyone who is not a Jew but there are more to these words. After Soloman died the tribes of Israel divided into the northern and southern kingdoms. The southern kingdom was the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the Levites tended to the temple; it is called the kingdom of Judah. When they were taken captive by Babylon, the slang term began to be used. Jew is an abbreviated slang term for Judahite, a resident of the southern kingdom of Judah.
Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12Jeremiah 23:5-62 Samuel 7:12-13Psalm 110:4Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
Galatians 4: 8-11, 8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
It is obvious that Paul asks us not to observe days.
In Galatians 5:1-2, Paul also says, "1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
In the epistle to Galatians Paul makes clear that we are not saved by the Law. We are freed from its rule.And in the Law he includes observing days and months and times and years and all those that the Law commanded the Israelites to obey.
In Romans, chapter 14, Paul talks about days and meat and drink
Verse 5, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Does that mean that it is OK to observe days? Although in verse 6, he says, "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks." in verse 1 he calls those who consider some days as holy, also avoiding specific meats and drinks, as weak in faith.
Verse 1 "1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs."
And in verse 14 he goes on "14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is"
Hi everyone, I would like to comment on the Sabbath rest mentioned in Exodus 20:10 and entering in that rest mentioned in Hebrews 4:10-11.
Israel as a Nation and under the Law did not enter in that rest and I will attempt to explain why.
There still remains a rest for the people of Israel. This speaks volumes on several topics; However, I would like to focus on one.
Now this is not the Church, we have joined him in his rest as mentioned here in Hebrews 4:3
Israel as a Nation stumbled as that Rock of offence by nonbelief. Yet for the most part they kept the Sabbath rest. Which was ritual pointing to one that could give them rest.
THE LAW WAS THE VIHICLE WHICH BROUGHT US TO THE ONE THAT CAN GIVE US REST!
Galatians 4:1-5. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
We join him in his rest by way of sonship.
So, what about the written articles of God? I will speak on that in a moment.
"Hello Giannis: I appreciate your comments but I politely disagree with both. The names (not quotes) you gave me were Catholics not Christians. Big difference. If you don't mind, would you be able to respond with quotes to show historical proof of what you say.
Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)
PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later."
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Hello Giannis: I appreciate your comments but I politely disagree with both. The names (not quotes) you gave me were Catholics not Christians. Big difference. If you don't mind, would you be able to respond with quotes to show historical proof of what you say.
Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)
PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later.
It was not the Catholic church that established Sunday instead of Sabbath. Untill 1054 AD when the scism/split between the Western Catholic Church and the Eastern Ortodox Church occured, the church was a united universal church. That church came as continuation of the first church and kept many of the traditions and ordinances of that early church. Apart from the Bible there are many other writtings of early christians who wrote about Sunday. Some of them are: Justin the Martyr (100-165 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (50-120/140 AD), The Epistle of Barnabas (70-130 AD), The Teachings of the 12 Apostles (Didascalia Apostolorum) 70-200 AD
Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
Thank you, there is no reason to post more you have answered my questions. I have studied John and all the New Testament and as you see this doctrine, I do not see it was taught in any of the books of the New Testament that we must believe it for salvation. What I do see is the only way of salvation is belief in Jesus our Lord Messiah the Son of God sent by the Father. Galatians 4:4
In John, I see a loving Son obedient to the Father who Jesus says is greater than Him. When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God without limit or measure the Father who dwelt in Jesus is the one who did the works. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
All that Jesus had was given to Him from the Father, John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Thank you for discussing this with me may our love for each other overcome any disagreement.
Thank you Valmar. To respond & also I'm in agreement with you, No, the Triune God never changes - as well as His requirement of faith to please Him & be acceptable to Him. The OT folk were accepted by God because of their faith in Him for Who He was (as revealed to them) & they were confident that He would fulfill all that He had promised to them. Those who died in their sins were the disobedient & faithless & could never please Him & suffered under His Hand. So, the essential requirement was Faith & when the Law & Commandments came to them, they were to obey fully in their strength, looking unto their Maker only.
So, what changed with the coming of Jesus Christ? Faith was still the requirement ( Hebrews 11:6), but it was no longer a human faith, based on human works, to be acceptable to God. The OT faithful (looking forward) would have their sins paid for at Calvary, just as those who would believe from Israel & Gentiles post-Calvary. But now, we don't receive a set of rules to follow to please God - we don't muster up (our) faith to be acceptable - and we contribute nothing in works (sacrifices, feasts, sabbaths, washings, etc.) towards our salvation.
For this reason, I sought your thoughts on the work of the Holy Spirit, He Who was sent by Jesus ( John 15:26; John 16:7; Galatians 4:6), a Spirit that the OT faithful never received for the renewing & enlivening of their hearts - only at Pentecost such a mighty Work of God took place. God indeed has not changed, but the Cross has changed how man stands before God. To Page 2.
Jesus was subject unto God his Father like anybody else
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,.."
God was not Superman to come as a human being he sent his Son Jesus John 3:16. If Jesus was God he sure is the weakest one I ever read as Jesus can do nothing by himself without the spirit of God his Father in him. John 5:30
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
No man can see God's face at anytime as people will die. Moses can never see God's face and neither can we, we only have the Son of God as an example who God his Father really is. Jesus preached God is a spirit John 4:24. Jesus never said that he was God in the whatever and if so nobody would be able to see his face.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Jesus fulfilled the law, which means he died and did everything that was written of him to do. The testimony of two m((en)) is true John 8:7 and not one m((an)). God was not Superman to become flesh, it was his Son as all the prophets of old knew that God had a son.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God never left his throne he sent his Son Jesus and not himself Romans 8:3.
Amen, it is not money that is the root of all evil; it is the love of it 1st Timothy 6:10. Everyday we see this, churches going all out for big banquets, bigger churches, bigger sports attendees and equipment, bigger this and that more this and more that and nothing for the saving of the soul. Sports athletes on drugs, Hollywood movie actors on their 5th wife, divorce/adultery/fornication, etc. Big drug cartels shooting each other, terrorism everybody killing each other, etc. All because of the love of money. It is all corruption.
Preachers on their 3rd wife and writing perverted books and no bible just preaching their theology and philosophy for your pocketbook to fund more corruption. "Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2nd Timothy 3:7. There is no end to their books and vain deceit which is corruption. I was in a ministry for 13 years the preacher was using money to finance his granddaughter's lifestyle as he preached we are not to be entangled with the world and everybody had to live like hermits while he was driving Cadillacs, funding his granddaughter's acting career, and involved with the holidays of the world that he preached against to his congregation. He used the money from the offerings to make CDs and tapes of his sermons and resell them to people for $10.00 each. Preached on radio, TV, etc how people are supposed to live with just barely a dime and give your money to him. I finally woke up to this after 13 years and saw that his love was money and he was corrupting his whole family and using deceit to cover up his tracks. No brotherly love was found d in his churches as he did not believe in it, it was always the wrath of God this and that. Whenever somebody got too close to the truth he used to fire off out-of-context scriptures, as it was his way of saying "back off" he was in love with his money and would rather kick people out of his church than being exposed. Just like 3rd John 1:9-10. Just like Galatians 4:17.
I would like to pause here for a second to ask how do you see Galatians 4:21-31 ties into all this?
Paul is not talking to Muslims here, He's talking to those who desire to be under the Law!!
Paul is using Issac and Ismael allegorically to present an on going issue in the Church today!
Back to Dave Hunt.
The Islamic Threat To Israel (Part 4)
By Dave Hunt.
The naivete of Western leaders in attempting to bring peace is illustrated no better than through former President Jimmie Carter. On March 26, 1979, he hosted at the White House the signing of a "peace treaty" by Israel's Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. Carter wanted to quote one verse each from the Bible and the Qur'an about peace. There are some 400 such verses in the Bible, but his speechwriters, after much searching, could find only one verse about peace in the Qur'an.
Carter optimistically declared: "In the Koran, we read: 'But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God...[Surah 8:61].' So let us now lay aside war.... We pray God...that these dreams will come true."
Islam's "dream," however, is not what Carter and Israel hoped. The verse says "Allah," not God--and Allah hates Jews! Surah eight is titled Spoils of War and it is all about fighting and plunder in the conquest of the world for Allah and Islam. Verse 65 says, "O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight...." Verse 67 says, "It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land."
The very verse Carter so naively cited declares that the only "peace" Islam offers to anyone is to those who surrender to its conquests and convert to Islam. As noted above, Sadat's reward was assassination at the hands of fellow Muslims for daring to establish "peace" on any other basis than conversion to Islam. In so doing, he had betrayed Islam itself.
We constantly grow in the grace and knowledge of God, only in his time frame, his appointed time to each of his children.
I think there is enough evidence through out the word of God that shows Christ is the angel of the Lord.
Acts 27:23 And there stood before me this night the ANGEL of the Lord, whose I am, and whom I serve.
We serve Christ, the angel (messenger) of the Lord (God).
Galatians 4:14 ....but received me as an angel of God, EVEN AS Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 63:9 In all their (creations) affections he (Christ) was afflicted, and the ANGEL of HIS (God's) presence SAVED them, in his (God's) love and his (God's) pity he (God) redeemed (through Christ, God's does all things through Christ) and bare them, and
carried them all the days of old.
There is many more scriptures, I like you try to keep comment short.
God BLESS YOU as we grow together in the knowledge of God.
Ephesians 4:4 ...ONE body ... ONE Spirit ....
Ephesians 4:5 ..... ONE God ..... Father of ALL .... even angels .... above all ..... through you all .... and IN YOU ALL .....even angels.
1 Corinthians 15:28 ..... that God may be ALL in ALL .....even angels .....
Psalms 103:20 ....ye HIS ANGELS ......
Romans 8:29 ...conformed to the IMAGE of HIS SON ....
Luke 20:36 Neither can they died anymore, for they are EQUAL to the ANGELS (Christ being the angel of the Lord, and they were resurrected in his image), and are the children of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION.
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
"That is, They which are the children of the flesh(Israel), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Romans 9:6-8,
"6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28,
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."
Galatians 3:29,
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (of the eternal life)."
Thanks for your explanation of 'abrogation' Daruled. Though I understand what you're writing, I still can't see how if 'you don't believe in it' (i.e. in this instance by my use of it), yet I can still "use it correctly". Therefore, Matthew 5:18 as you quoted, is of no problem to me as I read that Jesus was born "under the Law ( Galatians 4:4), to redeem them that were under the law" ( Galatians 4:5). He came as a Jew, abiding by the Laws & all the ceremonial requirements, as the Old Covenant was still in force. And as He said, "I am not come to destroy (the Law), but to fulfil"; His purpose was not to remove the Law but to fulfil its demands perfectly (and so He did in His Life & in His Death). He could not be accused to have broken any Law, even though the religious leaders had much to accuse Him of according to their interpretations & inclusions within the Law. They might even have thought of this Man, with this new teaching, as an opponent to 'their brand' of Laws & thus undermining their hypocritical regime. But Jesus said that the true Law's destruction wasn't His purpose of coming.
But when the Work at the Cross was fully accomplished, the Law that once only led to death giving no hope, was nailed to the Cross ( Colossians 2:14), thus bringing an end to both it & the Old Covenant under which it was enshrined. To Page 2.
Yes, Jesus is our "KINSMAN" redeemer.. I emphasize Kinsman because of what is discussed in this thread. In Revelation 5:4-10 Ir states that NO MAN was found to open the book. It had to be a man to fulfill the role! And Jesus qualifies being born of a woman to be our Kinsman.
Galatians 4:3-5 "Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons
We learn much about this in type in the book of Ruth and in other places on the OT.
I have been reading and studying the Scriptures you have posted, I will touch on a few, by the way, great work. Again, I know my understanding may be different and I do not want to offend, I do thank you for this discussion.
John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." This life came from the Father,
My understanding of this, it is part of John's prolog to his gospel as John writes, "In the beginning" is the beginning of Jesus's ministry, not before creation. Mark used it in Mark 1:1 also in Luke 1:2 and John uses it again in 1 John 1:1 "From the beginning" he is again talking about the beginning of Jesus's ministry, "the Word of life" which was the eternal life from the Father, John 5:26. This life is that light that shined and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus the true only begotten Son of God, who came out from the Father John 16:27. He was sent by the Father, Galatians 4:4 from the glory of the Father, the same matter, and divinity as the Father, and the Word was made flesh, born of a virgin and walked among us. We see in Revelation 19:13 His name is called The Word of God. Full of unfailing love and obedience to the Father, God was manifested in Him on earth 1 John 1:21 John 4:21 John 4:9. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Will study more of your posts and reply, if you want to continue the conversation, I understand your time is tight.
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
He staggered not at the PROMISE of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had PROMISED, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
NOW IT WAS NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was imputed to him;
BUT FOR US ALSO, TO WHOM IT SHALL BE IMPUTED, if we BELIEVE ON HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD;
Who was delivered for OUR OFFENCES, and was raised again for OUR JUSTIFICATION.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of PROMISE.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16-19.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE.
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
CONCLUSION
Galatians 3:27-29.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
When you say "'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it" what is the "faith" you are referring to? Is this Chris's Faith or Our Faith? This is not a distinction without a difference; it is the very essence of Salvation itself. And where we come down on this question determines the gospel we are trusting and proclaiming.
Galatians 4:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the "FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST", even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "FAITH OF CHRIST", and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What God is teaching here is that the faith that "saves" is Christ's Faith, His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those He saves; not Our faith. And Our faith IN Christ and our justification is the RESULT of Christ's Faith. It is NOT THE RESULT of our faith. Our faith in Christ is a GIFT from God and is part and parcel of the Salvation and Justification that we receive because Christ has saved us.
See, I did not disagree of you, I only meant to remember the James 2:10's preaching.
Also Paul Apostle said: Galatians 4:22-25 and 29-30
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage(of the Enemy) with her children.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
What was the population of Israel in the time of the prophet Elijah? Million(s)? But GOD said: 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him-1Kings.19:18
1Kings 20:15 - 15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered ALL THE PEOPLE, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (The others were of the rebel Israel idolater, in Revelation synagogue of Satan, and in John 8:44, sons of ...
The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath ( Matt. 12:8; also in Mark 2:28). This would legitimize commemoration of Christ on Sunday as the early church seemed to do. Naturally; we need to take seriously devoting time on Sunday as a day of rest if it is a substitute for the O.T. law; however being that we aren't to follow things dogmatically as Colossians 2:16 or Galatians 4:10-11 suggest it is clear that in the Age of Grace there is some latitude there. Also; it is the attitude of the hearts that dictates what would be necessary work as Matthew 12:11 indicates in the example of saving an animal from a ditch when Christ was confronted with healing on the Sabbath; or eating grains of wheat in the field (considered "work").
We need to consider what was going on in the Exodus years when there were strict orders on Manna as a sort of initial principle. There people were ordered to collect for two days on the Sabbath eve; which contradicted the normal daily routine where it would rot and they were specifically told NOT to save any. Such verses as the example in Numbers should at least have us soberly examine ourselves and how preoccupied we are when we come together as a local church. Some Reformed or OPC churches will not discuss anything outside scripture on Sundays. While that may be a bit too strict; all the endless banter which seems to be discussed before services in particular could use some serious editing. Not only does it detract from the sanctity of the fellowship but it keeps those needing prayer from expressing those needs; as well as squelching opportunities to offer prayers over the cacaphony. An attitude of prayer; as well as discussing the Word and God's attributes should be something the Pastor and Elders motivate people to do. A swift rebuke once in a while in convicting messages on that subject would probably be in order as well. Knowing how deep a conversation can go can quickly determine those who God has led to Disciple us or not
I would add one thing. When God speaks of Israel or Jerusalem or the Church, He uses these terms both in a corporate sense and in a Spiritual sense.
"Not all Israel (all of National Israel) are of Israel (the Israel of God, i.e. all true Believers) Rom 9:6
The Jerusalem that is now (all that are in bondage to and under the law, i.e. all unsaved) and the Jerusalem above (that is free, i.e.True Believers) Galatians 4:22-26.
The Church (local churches or National Israel made up of saved and unsaved) and the Eternal Church (All True Believers) Eph 5:23-32Heb 12-23
And this is dependent on the context.
There is no future role for National Israel with respect to God's Salvation Program. We all stand on exactly the same ground.
Beyond our comprehension! Being frustrated because there exists no earthly language able to express the glory and praise which He deserves, I asked Him to show me how to worship Him. Submitting to Him in devotion and prayer, time held no worth, for to escape this world and revel in the presence of the Lover of my soul is beyond comprehension. The weight of His glory, the rest of our souls, our daily bread, His beauty visible only through communion with Him, but more than visible for this, His, great Love dwells in the very core of our being. Come quickly Lord Jesus for my heart will surely fail in longing for You.
I don't think you will find it worded the way you worded it in your post with the actual word "Immediately".
But salvation is immediate when one truly believes and throughout the scripture it teaches that.
Actually in your original post you mentioned "some saying this before judgment".
I believe in your past posts you believes no one knows they're saved until Judgment.
The response from most of us is that a Christian is not part of that Judgment.
However we won't get into that here.
Here's what I will like to declare yo you.
I honestly believe there has been verses given that declares what you are looking for. And the Bible as a whole speaks on this aspect.
God spoke also in types that speaks on this.
Here's a few examples;
When God destroyed Sodom, When was lot saved?
When he left?
To answer that we would have to ask, When was he declared righteous.
God told Abraham he wouldn't destroy it if he found so many righteous. But do you notice the Angels wouldn't do anything until Lot was out of there!!
Genesis 19:21-22.
So was Lot saved before or after Judgment?
Let's look at Noah's Ark in the same light. When was Noah declared righteous?
When the Ark doors opened and closed or when God told him to start building it? Genesis 6:8. (The ark is a type.)
Adam, Galatians 4:28 says "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
When we look at the story of Abraham getting ready to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, If you study that carefully you'll see Abraham had faith before he started his journey! In Genesis 22:7-8 Isaac asked Abraham where is the Lamb for the burnt offering?
Abraham said, God will provide himself a burt offering!!
Abraham knew Isaac was the Child God promised would be his heir and he would have to raise him from the dead.
We're children of promise also!
By faith we're joint heirs of the promise with Abraham. God keeps his covenants and promises.
Cornelious and his own people got Spirit baptised before getting water baptised. Paul was also baptised in water after he was baptised in Spirit. So it actually seems that baptism in Spirit may occur before or after water baptism.
But definitely after believing, with the exception of Cornelius where it seems that believing and baptism occured at the same time. So Spirit baptism may occur simultaneously with new birth but also after new birth. Why? Because they are different things.
But definitely it can not occur before new birth. There is a verse in Galatians 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Here it says that God sends His Spirit to people because as it says, you are sons ALREADY, not because you will become sons in the future.
Finally we see that during that early age ALL believers were baptised in God's Spirit. The apostles urged people to receive the Spirit. That is shown in Samaria where with no delay at all the apostles went there to lay hands on believers, it is shown in Ephessus where the very first question Paul asked those disciples was if they had received the Spirit AFTER they believed, it is shown in Paul himself when he received the Spirit as soon as he saw again etc. So in the ancient times there was an urgency that all believers should be Spirit baptised. That is why in all the epistles the apostles wrote they talk to people who are Spirit baptised. But this is not the case with many of today's christians who assume they have the Spirit dwelling in them just because they are tought it is so but it actually isn't so.
Chris, would you ever think of starting asking God in your prayer to give you His Spirit with an external manifestation? What would you think if you started talking in unknown languages? Would you then believe me that it is so? I know I can not convince you that I am right but God can certainly do that.
We find that the unfolding of God's salvation plan is in no sense haphazard or random, but that every aspect of that plan is worked out in time. We can't separate time from the law, they are inextricably linked together. Galatians 4:4 declares
"4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Today there are a number of people who are saying they know the timing of Christ's return. Whether God shall reveal the timing remains to be seen, but one thing is certain: Christ's return is imminent, and the time to make our calling and election sure is now.
Hebrews 2:3,4
"3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
2 Corinthians 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"
Romans 9:27,28 "27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel], and cut it short in righteousness: because a short [Greek: logos, proclamation of the gospel] will the Lord make upon the earth."
May the LORD open our spiritual eyes and ears as we search the scriptures, applying the principals that God Himself has laid out in His Word, the Bible. Praying that God, in His Mercy, might open our understanding. And that He might give us an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to that Word.
2 Timothy 3:16,17
I agree with you that our all powerful God can give his spirit to a vessel and make him a sinless being.
But that sinless being
/Vessel would still be born of Adam and can only inherit what Adam has to offer. Death!
Adam was "MADE" a living soul, He didn't become one!
A living soul could never give life even if he was sinless.
Christ was a quickening (Life giving) Spirit. He didn't have to become one. HE WAS, AND "IS ONE"
Only the Son of God can make us Sons of God.
Any other person wouldn't be a Son of God!
Jesus had no Earthly Father.
So we should consider these scriptures to perhaps understand "Why a Son?"
Galatians 4:4-6.
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE ADOPTION OF SONS.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
John 1:12-13.
But as many as received him, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME:
WHICH WERE BORN, ((NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN)), ""BUT OF GOD"".
Romans 8:19-23. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
God bless.
Galatians 4:9 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again, till Christ be formed IN YOU.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.
God Bless YOU
Yes, Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and the line of David who was of the tribe of Judah, you can read the genealogy in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:21-38. Jesus the Son of God was made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4. Not sure about your question was Jesus a Jew? Today when we hear the word Jew it is taken to mean anyone who is of the religion of Judaism regardless of their genealogy.
The same when we hear the word Gentile or Gentiles, we think of anyone who is not a Jew but there are more to these words. After Soloman died the tribes of Israel divided into the northern and southern kingdoms. The southern kingdom was the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the Levites tended to the temple; it is called the kingdom of Judah. When they were taken captive by Babylon, the slang term began to be used. Jew is an abbreviated slang term for Judahite, a resident of the southern kingdom of Judah.
Hope this helps.
God bless,
RLW
Part one.
Thank you for continuing the discussion, I also tremble at His word we are just a spec compared to our God. Deuteronomy 18:15-19 This to me is fulfilled in John 1:1 the word of God in Jesus the Messiah. When Jesus was anointed the Messiah every word that Jesus said was the word of God the word of God in the flesh of His Son. Everything that was created was created by the word of God, not His Son. God said let there be, and it was.
If we read Isaiah 66:1 we cannot imagine how large God can be. He can overwhelm all of what we can imagine. In my human mind, I see His Spirit cover the earth like a dome, omnipresent, it is like an electrical grid that believers plug into, I know that may sound weird.
John 17 I will do my best to show my understanding, this is just before Jesus was going to be nailed to the cross. Verses 1-5 Jesus is praying to the Father about Himself, the Father is God, when we pray, we pray to our Father, and we relate to God as Father, through the Bible Father means God and Jesus said to His Father He is the only true God. In and through Jesus Christ we become sons and daughters of God, so we cry out Abba, Father, Galatians 4:6.
Jesus said He had finished the work the Father had given to Him and Jesus glorified His Father on earth. Jesus is now ready to face death on the cross and fulfilling the law and the prophet's, all of what Scripture had said what He would become, and Jesus was ready to take His place on the right hand of His Father, Isaiah 53:12 Jeremiah 23:5-6 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Psalm 110:4 Psalm 16:10, these are just a few verses that Jesus would have known about Himself.
In Daniel 7:13-14 Daniel had a prophetic vision of Jesus's ascension and God the Father giving His Son Jesus dominion and glory overall and giving Him the kingdom. God showed Daniel this was with God in the beginning, in God's plan but did not come to fruition until Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.
See part 2.
In Galatians, Paul says:
Galatians 4: 8-11, 8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
It is obvious that Paul asks us not to observe days.
In Galatians 5:1-2, Paul also says, "1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
In the epistle to Galatians Paul makes clear that we are not saved by the Law. We are freed from its rule.And in the Law he includes observing days and months and times and years and all those that the Law commanded the Israelites to obey.
In Romans, chapter 14, Paul talks about days and meat and drink
Verse 5, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Does that mean that it is OK to observe days? Although in verse 6, he says, "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks." in verse 1 he calls those who consider some days as holy, also avoiding specific meats and drinks, as weak in faith.
Verse 1 "1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs."
And in verse 14 he goes on "14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is"
Part 1.
Hi everyone, I would like to comment on the Sabbath rest mentioned in Exodus 20:10 and entering in that rest mentioned in Hebrews 4:10-11.
Israel as a Nation and under the Law did not enter in that rest and I will attempt to explain why.
There still remains a rest for the people of Israel. This speaks volumes on several topics; However, I would like to focus on one.
Now this is not the Church, we have joined him in his rest as mentioned here in Hebrews 4:3
Israel as a Nation stumbled as that Rock of offence by nonbelief. Yet for the most part they kept the Sabbath rest. Which was ritual pointing to one that could give them rest.
THE LAW WAS THE VIHICLE WHICH BROUGHT US TO THE ONE THAT CAN GIVE US REST!
Galatians 4:1-5. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
We join him in his rest by way of sonship.
So, what about the written articles of God? I will speak on that in a moment.
See Part 2. The early Church.
Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)
PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later."
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Galatians 4: 9-11 Again this deals with the corruption of the laws, statues and ordinances that Moses gave; the Laws of Moses, not the Commandments of God. Moses' laws were done away with through the Cross, Jesus summed up the Commandments of God into 2, Matthew 22: 37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (First 4 of God's commandments) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (Last 6 of God's commandments). On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Verse 40 is referring to the real laws and words from the prophets that God gave, not the corrupted versions of the people. Just like today as most people use the modern translations of the bible written by men instead of the one true translation written by the Holy Spirit. Those true believers who go to church on Sunday and read modern versions of the bible are doing NO wrong, not unless God has revealed the truth to them and they deny it. I'm not talking about these discussions I am presenting to this group, as being revealed to you, I am talking about a real conviction of the Holy Spirit as I have received. Those experiences are between the believer and God, but I won't remain silent on the subjects either. God Bless :)
PS As I said, these postings were premature. They need corrections. More later.
It was not the Catholic church that established Sunday instead of Sabbath. Untill 1054 AD when the scism/split between the Western Catholic Church and the Eastern Ortodox Church occured, the church was a united universal church. That church came as continuation of the first church and kept many of the traditions and ordinances of that early church. Apart from the Bible there are many other writtings of early christians who wrote about Sunday. Some of them are: Justin the Martyr (100-165 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (50-120/140 AD), The Epistle of Barnabas (70-130 AD), The Teachings of the 12 Apostles (Didascalia Apostolorum) 70-200 AD
Galatians 4:9-11, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
Thank you, there is no reason to post more you have answered my questions. I have studied John and all the New Testament and as you see this doctrine, I do not see it was taught in any of the books of the New Testament that we must believe it for salvation. What I do see is the only way of salvation is belief in Jesus our Lord Messiah the Son of God sent by the Father. Galatians 4:4
In John, I see a loving Son obedient to the Father who Jesus says is greater than Him. When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God without limit or measure the Father who dwelt in Jesus is the one who did the works. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
All that Jesus had was given to Him from the Father, John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Thank you for discussing this with me may our love for each other overcome any disagreement.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you Valmar. To respond & also I'm in agreement with you, No, the Triune God never changes - as well as His requirement of faith to please Him & be acceptable to Him. The OT folk were accepted by God because of their faith in Him for Who He was (as revealed to them) & they were confident that He would fulfill all that He had promised to them. Those who died in their sins were the disobedient & faithless & could never please Him & suffered under His Hand. So, the essential requirement was Faith & when the Law & Commandments came to them, they were to obey fully in their strength, looking unto their Maker only.
So, what changed with the coming of Jesus Christ? Faith was still the requirement ( Hebrews 11:6), but it was no longer a human faith, based on human works, to be acceptable to God. The OT faithful (looking forward) would have their sins paid for at Calvary, just as those who would believe from Israel & Gentiles post-Calvary. But now, we don't receive a set of rules to follow to please God - we don't muster up (our) faith to be acceptable - and we contribute nothing in works (sacrifices, feasts, sabbaths, washings, etc.) towards our salvation.
For this reason, I sought your thoughts on the work of the Holy Spirit, He Who was sent by Jesus ( John 15:26; John 16:7; Galatians 4:6), a Spirit that the OT faithful never received for the renewing & enlivening of their hearts - only at Pentecost such a mighty Work of God took place. God indeed has not changed, but the Cross has changed how man stands before God. To Page 2.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,.."
God was not Superman to come as a human being he sent his Son Jesus John 3:16. If Jesus was God he sure is the weakest one I ever read as Jesus can do nothing by himself without the spirit of God his Father in him. John 5:30
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
No man can see God's face at anytime as people will die. Moses can never see God's face and neither can we, we only have the Son of God as an example who God his Father really is. Jesus preached God is a spirit John 4:24. Jesus never said that he was God in the whatever and if so nobody would be able to see his face.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Jesus fulfilled the law, which means he died and did everything that was written of him to do. The testimony of two m((en)) is true John 8:7 and not one m((an)). God was not Superman to become flesh, it was his Son as all the prophets of old knew that God had a son.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
God never left his throne he sent his Son Jesus and not himself Romans 8:3.
Preachers on their 3rd wife and writing perverted books and no bible just preaching their theology and philosophy for your pocketbook to fund more corruption. "Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2nd Timothy 3:7. There is no end to their books and vain deceit which is corruption. I was in a ministry for 13 years the preacher was using money to finance his granddaughter's lifestyle as he preached we are not to be entangled with the world and everybody had to live like hermits while he was driving Cadillacs, funding his granddaughter's acting career, and involved with the holidays of the world that he preached against to his congregation. He used the money from the offerings to make CDs and tapes of his sermons and resell them to people for $10.00 each. Preached on radio, TV, etc how people are supposed to live with just barely a dime and give your money to him. I finally woke up to this after 13 years and saw that his love was money and he was corrupting his whole family and using deceit to cover up his tracks. No brotherly love was found d in his churches as he did not believe in it, it was always the wrath of God this and that. Whenever somebody got too close to the truth he used to fire off out-of-context scriptures, as it was his way of saying "back off" he was in love with his money and would rather kick people out of his church than being exposed. Just like 3rd John 1:9-10. Just like Galatians 4:17.
NOTE;
I would like to pause here for a second to ask how do you see Galatians 4:21-31 ties into all this?
Paul is not talking to Muslims here, He's talking to those who desire to be under the Law!!
Paul is using Issac and Ismael allegorically to present an on going issue in the Church today!
Back to Dave Hunt.
The Islamic Threat To Israel (Part 4)
By Dave Hunt.
The naivete of Western leaders in attempting to bring peace is illustrated no better than through former President Jimmie Carter. On March 26, 1979, he hosted at the White House the signing of a "peace treaty" by Israel's Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. Carter wanted to quote one verse each from the Bible and the Qur'an about peace. There are some 400 such verses in the Bible, but his speechwriters, after much searching, could find only one verse about peace in the Qur'an.
Carter optimistically declared: "In the Koran, we read: 'But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God...[Surah 8:61].' So let us now lay aside war.... We pray God...that these dreams will come true."
Islam's "dream," however, is not what Carter and Israel hoped. The verse says "Allah," not God--and Allah hates Jews! Surah eight is titled Spoils of War and it is all about fighting and plunder in the conquest of the world for Allah and Islam. Verse 65 says, "O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight...." Verse 67 says, "It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land."
The very verse Carter so naively cited declares that the only "peace" Islam offers to anyone is to those who surrender to its conquests and convert to Islam. As noted above, Sadat's reward was assassination at the hands of fellow Muslims for daring to establish "peace" on any other basis than conversion to Islam. In so doing, he had betrayed Islam itself.
See Part 21.
We constantly grow in the grace and knowledge of God, only in his time frame, his appointed time to each of his children.
I think there is enough evidence through out the word of God that shows Christ is the angel of the Lord.
Acts 27:23 And there stood before me this night the ANGEL of the Lord, whose I am, and whom I serve.
We serve Christ, the angel (messenger) of the Lord (God).
Galatians 4:14 ....but received me as an angel of God, EVEN AS Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 63:9 In all their (creations) affections he (Christ) was afflicted, and the ANGEL of HIS (God's) presence SAVED them, in his (God's) love and his (God's) pity he (God) redeemed (through Christ, God's does all things through Christ) and bare them, and
carried them all the days of old.
There is many more scriptures, I like you try to keep comment short.
God BLESS YOU as we grow together in the knowledge of God.
Ephesians 4:4 ...ONE body ... ONE Spirit ....
Ephesians 4:5 ..... ONE God ..... Father of ALL .... even angels .... above all ..... through you all .... and IN YOU ALL .....even angels.
1 Corinthians 15:28 ..... that God may be ALL in ALL .....even angels .....
Psalms 103:20 ....ye HIS ANGELS ......
Romans 8:29 ...conformed to the IMAGE of HIS SON ....
Luke 20:36 Neither can they died anymore, for they are EQUAL to the ANGELS (Christ being the angel of the Lord, and they were resurrected in his image), and are the children of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION.
God BLESS YOU!
Part 5.
Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.
Exodus 19:10-12. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
This is a type of cleansing you are describing Ronald when considering man can keep himself sanctified. The problem is, this is absent of Christ atonement.
"Man can never do enough to come from under Christ atonement!
Our part is to obey the Spirit that has been sown in our hearts to carry the Lord's name. We are not to take the Lord's name in vain.
We are to be set apart from the world by our chastened walk through the Spirit, but when it comes to the Holiness of God, our obedience doesn't set us apart from our past, present, and future sin. The atoning blood of Christ does that forever.
The children of Israel although cleaning themselves they could never cleanse themselves enough to come into the presence of God. NEITHER CAN WE!
However, under the new covenant where Christ blood cleanses us we see the contrast of the two in 2 Corinthians 3:3-18.
and Galatians 4:21-31.
The power of His Holy Spirit that gives us new birth at justification is the same power that sanctifies us through the life of the risen Christ.
There are many Bible passages that puts the onus on the Christian to grow spiritually ( Romans 12:1-2; 2 Peter 3:18). However, the Bible clearly indicates that the Christian must cooperate with God but not for eternal security, It's for spiritual growth.
Thanks for replying and God bless.
"That is, They which are the children of the flesh(Israel), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Romans 9:6-8,
"6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28,
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."
Galatians 3:29,
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (of the eternal life)."
Thanks for your explanation of 'abrogation' Daruled. Though I understand what you're writing, I still can't see how if 'you don't believe in it' (i.e. in this instance by my use of it), yet I can still "use it correctly". Therefore, Matthew 5:18 as you quoted, is of no problem to me as I read that Jesus was born "under the Law ( Galatians 4:4), to redeem them that were under the law" ( Galatians 4:5). He came as a Jew, abiding by the Laws & all the ceremonial requirements, as the Old Covenant was still in force. And as He said, "I am not come to destroy (the Law), but to fulfil"; His purpose was not to remove the Law but to fulfil its demands perfectly (and so He did in His Life & in His Death). He could not be accused to have broken any Law, even though the religious leaders had much to accuse Him of according to their interpretations & inclusions within the Law. They might even have thought of this Man, with this new teaching, as an opponent to 'their brand' of Laws & thus undermining their hypocritical regime. But Jesus said that the true Law's destruction wasn't His purpose of coming.
But when the Work at the Cross was fully accomplished, the Law that once only led to death giving no hope, was nailed to the Cross ( Colossians 2:14), thus bringing an end to both it & the Old Covenant under which it was enshrined. To Page 2.
Yes, Jesus is our "KINSMAN" redeemer.. I emphasize Kinsman because of what is discussed in this thread. In Revelation 5:4-10 Ir states that NO MAN was found to open the book. It had to be a man to fulfill the role! And Jesus qualifies being born of a woman to be our Kinsman.
Galatians 4:3-5 "Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons
We learn much about this in type in the book of Ruth and in other places on the OT.
GB.
I have been reading and studying the Scriptures you have posted, I will touch on a few, by the way, great work. Again, I know my understanding may be different and I do not want to offend, I do thank you for this discussion.
John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." This life came from the Father,
My understanding of this, it is part of John's prolog to his gospel as John writes, "In the beginning" is the beginning of Jesus's ministry, not before creation. Mark used it in Mark 1:1 also in Luke 1:2 and John uses it again in 1 John 1:1 "From the beginning" he is again talking about the beginning of Jesus's ministry, "the Word of life" which was the eternal life from the Father, John 5:26. This life is that light that shined and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus the true only begotten Son of God, who came out from the Father John 16:27. He was sent by the Father, Galatians 4:4 from the glory of the Father, the same matter, and divinity as the Father, and the Word was made flesh, born of a virgin and walked among us. We see in Revelation 19:13 His name is called The Word of God. Full of unfailing love and obedience to the Father, God was manifested in Him on earth 1 John 1:2 1 John 4:2 1 John 4:9. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Will study more of your posts and reply, if you want to continue the conversation, I understand your time is tight.
God bless,
RLW
Romans 4:19-25.
And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
He staggered not at the PROMISE of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had PROMISED, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
NOW IT WAS NOT WRITTEN FOR HIS SAKE ALONE, that it was imputed to him;
BUT FOR US ALSO, TO WHOM IT SHALL BE IMPUTED, if we BELIEVE ON HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD;
Who was delivered for OUR OFFENCES, and was raised again for OUR JUSTIFICATION.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of PROMISE.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16-19.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE.
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
CONCLUSION
Galatians 3:27-29.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Genesis 22:18.
God bless.
When you say "'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it" what is the "faith" you are referring to? Is this Chris's Faith or Our Faith? This is not a distinction without a difference; it is the very essence of Salvation itself. And where we come down on this question determines the gospel we are trusting and proclaiming.
Galatians 4:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the "FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST", even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "FAITH OF CHRIST", and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What God is teaching here is that the faith that "saves" is Christ's Faith, His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those He saves; not Our faith. And Our faith IN Christ and our justification is the RESULT of Christ's Faith. It is NOT THE RESULT of our faith. Our faith in Christ is a GIFT from God and is part and parcel of the Salvation and Justification that we receive because Christ has saved us.
See, I did not disagree of you, I only meant to remember the James 2:10's preaching.
Also Paul Apostle said: Galatians 4:22-25 and 29-30
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage(of the Enemy) with her children.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
What was the population of Israel in the time of the prophet Elijah? Million(s)? But GOD said: 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him-1Kings.19:18
1Kings 20:15 - 15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered ALL THE PEOPLE, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. (The others were of the rebel Israel idolater, in Revelation synagogue of Satan, and in John 8:44, sons of ...
We need to consider what was going on in the Exodus years when there were strict orders on Manna as a sort of initial principle. There people were ordered to collect for two days on the Sabbath eve; which contradicted the normal daily routine where it would rot and they were specifically told NOT to save any. Such verses as the example in Numbers should at least have us soberly examine ourselves and how preoccupied we are when we come together as a local church. Some Reformed or OPC churches will not discuss anything outside scripture on Sundays. While that may be a bit too strict; all the endless banter which seems to be discussed before services in particular could use some serious editing. Not only does it detract from the sanctity of the fellowship but it keeps those needing prayer from expressing those needs; as well as squelching opportunities to offer prayers over the cacaphony. An attitude of prayer; as well as discussing the Word and God's attributes should be something the Pastor and Elders motivate people to do. A swift rebuke once in a while in convicting messages on that subject would probably be in order as well. Knowing how deep a conversation can go can quickly determine those who God has led to Disciple us or not
I would add one thing. When God speaks of Israel or Jerusalem or the Church, He uses these terms both in a corporate sense and in a Spiritual sense.
"Not all Israel (all of National Israel) are of Israel (the Israel of God, i.e. all true Believers) Rom 9:6
The Jerusalem that is now (all that are in bondage to and under the law, i.e. all unsaved) and the Jerusalem above (that is free, i.e.True Believers) Galatians 4:22-26.
The Church (local churches or National Israel made up of saved and unsaved) and the Eternal Church (All True Believers) Eph 5:23-32 Heb 12-23
And this is dependent on the context.
There is no future role for National Israel with respect to God's Salvation Program. We all stand on exactly the same ground.
Thanks for your response.
I don't think you will find it worded the way you worded it in your post with the actual word "Immediately".
But salvation is immediate when one truly believes and throughout the scripture it teaches that.
Actually in your original post you mentioned "some saying this before judgment".
I believe in your past posts you believes no one knows they're saved until Judgment.
The response from most of us is that a Christian is not part of that Judgment.
However we won't get into that here.
Here's what I will like to declare yo you.
I honestly believe there has been verses given that declares what you are looking for. And the Bible as a whole speaks on this aspect.
God spoke also in types that speaks on this.
Here's a few examples;
When God destroyed Sodom, When was lot saved?
When he left?
To answer that we would have to ask, When was he declared righteous.
God told Abraham he wouldn't destroy it if he found so many righteous. But do you notice the Angels wouldn't do anything until Lot was out of there!!
Genesis 19:21-22.
So was Lot saved before or after Judgment?
Let's look at Noah's Ark in the same light. When was Noah declared righteous?
When the Ark doors opened and closed or when God told him to start building it? Genesis 6:8. (The ark is a type.)
Adam, Galatians 4:28 says "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
When we look at the story of Abraham getting ready to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, If you study that carefully you'll see Abraham had faith before he started his journey! In Genesis 22:7-8 Isaac asked Abraham where is the Lamb for the burnt offering?
Abraham said, God will provide himself a burt offering!!
Abraham knew Isaac was the Child God promised would be his heir and he would have to raise him from the dead.
We're children of promise also!
By faith we're joint heirs of the promise with Abraham. God keeps his covenants and promises.
We're saved now.
God bless.
Similarly in Samaria and in Ephessus.
Cornelious and his own people got Spirit baptised before getting water baptised. Paul was also baptised in water after he was baptised in Spirit. So it actually seems that baptism in Spirit may occur before or after water baptism.
But definitely after believing, with the exception of Cornelius where it seems that believing and baptism occured at the same time. So Spirit baptism may occur simultaneously with new birth but also after new birth. Why? Because they are different things.
But definitely it can not occur before new birth. There is a verse in Galatians 4:6, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Here it says that God sends His Spirit to people because as it says, you are sons ALREADY, not because you will become sons in the future.
Finally we see that during that early age ALL believers were baptised in God's Spirit. The apostles urged people to receive the Spirit. That is shown in Samaria where with no delay at all the apostles went there to lay hands on believers, it is shown in Ephessus where the very first question Paul asked those disciples was if they had received the Spirit AFTER they believed, it is shown in Paul himself when he received the Spirit as soon as he saw again etc. So in the ancient times there was an urgency that all believers should be Spirit baptised. That is why in all the epistles the apostles wrote they talk to people who are Spirit baptised. But this is not the case with many of today's christians who assume they have the Spirit dwelling in them just because they are tought it is so but it actually isn't so.
Chris, would you ever think of starting asking God in your prayer to give you His Spirit with an external manifestation? What would you think if you started talking in unknown languages? Would you then believe me that it is so? I know I can not convince you that I am right but God can certainly do that.
GBU