Once we die our spirit is no longer confined to time as we understand it. God is outside of timeonce our earthly body dies, our consciousness is immediately outside of time with the Lord. We aren't waiting for our children to grow old and come be with us, those of our loved ones who go on living after we die will be with us at that instant. It's a hard concept to comprehend because we are so aware of "time" in this lifewe obsess over it, but the moment we leave this mortal plane and enter eternity, "time" will no longer exist as we perceive it now. Our bodies sleeping in the graves is from the point of view of those who are still living on this side of eternity. That's the way I understand it
Yes, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of GOD: and they that hear shall live, and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15
And the NATIONS were(WLL BE) angry, and thy wrath is come(GOD'S WRATH has already started), and the time of the DEAD, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth- Revelation 11:18.
Daniel 12:1-3 (combined with Isaiah 26:19-21. Take a look.)
1 At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
An another of the disciples said unto JESUS: Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But JESUS said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (let the dead bury their dead? What is your understand of this?)
More than opinion is revelation. Matthew 24 has in part been LITERALLY fulfilled. In the year 70AD, verses 1 and 2 were fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews throughout the world during 1878 years of severe plagues and curses, in addition to insufferable pain, according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 53 verses of strong and severe punishments.
Now, verses 3 to 8 are being fulfilled, the beginning of sorrows, and the decay of the Churches with the development of apostasies and iniquities-verses 9 to 14.
Then, the last week- Daniel 9:27- is about to start and with this event the persecutions of the first half of the week-42 months- Revelation 13:5- by the Beast of sea, culminating with the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation for 1,290 days in the second half of the week (plus 30 days)-verses 15 to 27 combined with Daniel 12:11 and 11:v.31. It is the END of this world and a sign of the coming of JESUS: Matthew 24:3 combined with Revelation 11:15-18. Blessed is he who waits and comes at 1335 days- Daniel 12:12 , 45 days after finishing the Abomination of Desolation. GET READY
What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executable. By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were-understand? Romans 4:17 and Hebrews 4:3. Take a look.
In my vision, and I'm sure of this, the day of Christ's return is the day 1.335 - Daniel 12:12. GOD said: 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Why GOD said that? Exactly 75 days after the END of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27, and 45 days after the END of the Abomination of Desolation.
The question is: How to know by the calendar what day the day 1335 will fall on? Impossible, for now. Anyway, get ready, because it's very close.
See,what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD.The Word is GOD,self-executing,understand?
1 Thess.4:16KJV reveals:The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of GOD:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:The archangel has a name:Michael.The Lord Himself shall descend with the voice of archangel.There will be a WAR against the Devil's world in this current time of Apocalypse
Dan.12:1-3:-1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble(Matt.24:15-25),such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever
Rev.11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel(actually an archangel)sounded;and there were(will be)great voices in heaven,saying,The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ;and he shall reign for ever and ever
18 And the nations were(will be) angry,and thy wrath(GOD'S WRATH)is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged( Daniel 12:3),and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth
Dan.12:10-Many shall be purified,and made white,and tried;but the wicked shall do wickedly:and none of the wicked shall understand;but the wise shall understand.11-From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,and the abomination(of desolation)set up,there shall be 1290 days.12-Blessed is he that waiteth, and comes to 1335 days.
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible interpretation that the God lays down:
Christ is the author of the Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
...the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
As we approach the end of the world, and Christ's return, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end. This is spoken of as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
Daniel 12:9-10 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Habakkuk 2:2-3 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation is not found in the Bible. It seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the whole Bible is written for us today.
Mark 4:10-12 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body(National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God). When talking about Salvation and the Gospel it is usually the latter; this is the case in Jeremiah as in many other parts of the Bible.
Furthermore, God is revealing truth in our Day that was hidden until we are near the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be read like any other book to understand truth. We must use the principles that God establishes in the Bible to interpret Scripture. And then it is only God Himself that opens our spiritual understanding as we compare Scripture with Scripture applying those principles.
Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
You asked; When Christ was on the Cross while still alive, the dead arose from the grave and the veil was torn. How did this event affect the House of Israel?
Inside the Veil is where the High priest went in and made the sacrifices for the people of Israel,
The veil separated the people from the Glory of God.
First the High priest would offer a sacrifice for himself before he go in.
If not he would be killed.
If his sacrifice wasn't accepted he would be killed.
This is why they had bells and a rope on him when he went in.
If you no longer hear the bells, that means something happened to him.
You would have to use the rope to pull him out.
These sacrifices had to be offered often, Christ was offered once and for all.
Christ was ending that Priesthood.
See Romans 10:1-21.
Verses 19-20
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Jesus didn't come to end the law and make it desolate. He came to fulfill the law and perfect it.
He came to end the Leviticus priesthood where they presented sacrifices that pointed to him.
( Matthew 5:17-18.)
They rejected their king "Which was prophesied" They made their own "HOUSE" desolate. ( A people without a King to set on David's throne )
What the Prince that shall come does is totally different,
In Daniel 9:27 he confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.
This is the same thing mentioned in Daniel 12:11, (The abomination that maketh desolate.)
This is what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:15, ( This can't be at the end of Christ ministry because he said it this abomination would be at the end of the world.)
This 3.5 period is called the GREAT tribulation and it's prophesied towards Daniels "THY PEOPLE, ISRAEL.) Daniel 9:24.
You see this played out in Revelation 12:6.
Let's look at who confirms the covenant for 1 week.
Daniel 9:26-27 reads "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....
The Romans destroyed the Sanctuary, Jesus is not their prince.
Jesus didn't confirm this covenant and cause it to cease at his death.
Jesus death BEGINS a covenant!
The covenant in Daniel is a totally different covenant the Antichrist will confirm with Israel and cause the sacrifices to cease midway through the 70th week/Tribulations.
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and he answered them in verse 15.
Verses 4-14 would be non signs of the end of the world. He says that in verse 6. "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
And then he goes on with the beginning of these sorrows as mentioned in Matthew 24:8 until he gets to verses 14 and15.
Vs 14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Vs 15. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by "DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
WHOSO READETH, LET HIM UNDERSTAND!!:
Jesus is diverting them back to Daniel 9:27 as the key to end time prophecy. The 70th week of Daniel.
"And he/Antichrist shall confirm the covenant with many FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,)
The Great tribulation begins in the middle of the 70th week with Jesus describing Daniels prophecy as the key and details this event in Matthew 24:16-21.
Daniel 12:9-11 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE set up, there shall be a (thousand two hundred and ninety days). 3.5 years!
You asked: Do Believers go through great tribulation?
Yes, they do. Get ready, it will be the last seven years of the Devil's world. It is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of this devilish world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching.
The journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last seven years, and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt. By the way, there will be two BEASTS reigning in the Earth, one Gentile Beast and another Jewish, that is a false lamb, a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, as prophesied JESUS- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11KJV. The 1st 42 months of the last seven years, it will be ruled by the FIRST Beast enthroned in Jerusalem by the false messiah as is written in Rev.13:2 and 5-KJV. The 2nd Beast -the false messiah-will rule the 2nd half of the last seven years. Get ready.
Daniel in his prophecy, warned, saying: Daniel 12:11-12KJV
11"From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (yes, it shall be taken away because there was a certain period of time to cease the sacrifice or be taken out of the way, the restraining, by the way, the sacrifice of JESUS have lasted until this current time or around 720.000 days, and now will cease) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. JESUS warned us: Matthew 24:15-"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)if not understand, it may complicate, it is what I think), after all it will be 1290 very tense days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days
See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?
By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.
GET READY
You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
Thankyou so much Ronald , that was so well explained , I knew that and agree with everything you said but I could not have explained it as plainly and clearly as you just did :) .
I have visited some Hebrew sites to see how Hebrews understand the verse in Genesis 2:7, ""And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1. Living soul. It is always interpreted as "living being". In Bible (in both Hebrew and Greek) the word soul apart from meaning actually a soul it oftens means "person", "life", "being". In Gen 2:7 it means "being"
2. The breath of life does not mean the Spirit of God. It just shows an action from God that made man alive and that life is shown by breathing.
3. The phrase "breathed into his nostrlis" is always written as "blowing into his nostrils'. In the Septuagint it is almost the same, " And God blowed to his face the blow of life, and man became a living soul (which again is interpreted as "being").
So the whole verse in Gen 2:7 has nothing to do with Spirits and souls. It just talks about the material side of man, soil from the earth that God gave it life.
I agree with Adam, as we see in Genesis 2:7 that when God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life he became a living soul. When this spirit of life that is given by God leaves us, we are no longer a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the spirit goes back to God who gave it, that is for all people, saved or not saved.
We cannot live without the spirit, our breath as James 2:26 said without it our body is dead. When we stop breathing and that spirit goes back to God, we are no longer a living soul, as Jesus said on the cross, I commend my spirit, His breath then He died. Jesus did not go to heaven He went to the tomb/grave the same as we will. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected, John 20:17.
My understanding is the confusion comes from Greek Philosophy, the meaning of death, Hades, and the immortality of the soul that merged into the Church with Augustine with the teaching on human nature and the afterlife to Greek philosophies.
Daniel 12:2 is the same as John 5:28-29 that we see in Revelation 20:11-15, the sheep and the goats, we see the last enemy cast into the lake of fire death, and hell/grave. My understanding of Scripture we are mortal, and our breath/spirit goes back to God and our soul no longer lives but is asleep in the grave until we are resurrected from the grave. This body is not what is resurrected it is our soul into our new body, and that is when we will be absent from this body, 1 Cor. 15:42-58.
Can I tell someone who thinks their loved one is in heaven their wrong? No, that would be hurtful. If they ask for my understanding, this is what Scripture says to me.
Hello Ashley. In my understanding, there are two aspects for those who belong to Jesus at their death: the mortal body goes into the ground & the immortal spirit returns to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). Some believe that both the spirit/soul & body remain together in the ground.
In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.
Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.
I was always under the assumption that when saved Christians die, they go to Heaven immediately. Daniel 12:2 has somewhat perplexed me. Do people just "sleep" in their graves until Christ's Second Coming? Or are they waiting in Heaven for us? Please help me understand.
Thanks brother S. Spencer. I believe you have understood Daniel 9:24-27 as I have, but to add a little. I realize that the "HE shall confirm the covenant with many...." (v27), is the main point of difference that comes up. The question: is the 'He' speaking about Christ or the Anti-Christ? And this question raises different answers even from renowned commentators.
From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.
Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.
If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.
Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.
The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.
Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.
So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.
Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11
Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....
Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....
All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.
All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.
Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.
Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....
Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.
ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.
The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22
Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......
Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.
Luke 12:4-5
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.
Luke 16:22-25
Matt 25:41
Matt 3:12
Matt 25:46
Daniel 12:2
Mark 9:44-49
2 Thess 1:8-9
Rev 20:10
Rev 14:10-11
I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.
Proverbs 1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2John 5:24-29Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.
Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:111 Corinthians 15:53-542 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.
I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.
We must always remember that any truth we may have come to is not because we are smarter or wiser than any one else. It is God Himself that must reveal truth to us from His Word, if indeed He has. And He will do that in accordance with His good pleasure on His time table, not ours.
I will say that I did not come to my beliefs regarding the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation Programs and my current understanding of end time events and what God declares about the churches and congregations of our day, solely by my own personal study while isolated somewhere in an ivory tower. But I have been blessed by faithful Bible teachers that have diligently searched the scriptures faithfully applying the principles of Bible interpretation that God has given us in the Bible itself. Some of that teaching can be found today in the ministry of SearchingHisWord and Alameda Bible Fellowship as I referenced previously.
We must also recognize that there are certain truths that could not be understood even by True Believers until we approach the time of the end as we read in Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
And Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
So if there was ever a time when we should be "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so", it is now.
True, David0921, 'stagnation' would be too subtle a word to more fully describe how the Church at large treats God's Word & deals with sin & rebuke of erring ones. Unfortunately, from my limited experience, it seems that the larger the Church (congregation), the weaker they are in some of these areas we've referred to. The smaller, & probably the more exclusive (sectarian) of them, keep a much more rigid control on behavior & adherence to the Word. Yet, saying that, often their teachings also tend to be a little off-track. A few however, I believe, have found the right balance.
Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.
I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.
Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.
I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.
These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Yes, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of GOD: and they that hear shall live, and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15
And the NATIONS were(WLL BE) angry, and thy wrath is come(GOD'S WRATH has already started), and the time of the DEAD, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth- Revelation 11:18.
Daniel 12:1-3 (combined with Isaiah 26:19-21. Take a look.)
1 At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
An another of the disciples said unto JESUS: Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But JESUS said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (let the dead bury their dead? What is your understand of this?)
Now, verses 3 to 8 are being fulfilled, the beginning of sorrows, and the decay of the Churches with the development of apostasies and iniquities-verses 9 to 14.
Then, the last week- Daniel 9:27- is about to start and with this event the persecutions of the first half of the week-42 months- Revelation 13:5- by the Beast of sea, culminating with the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation for 1,290 days in the second half of the week (plus 30 days)-verses 15 to 27 combined with Daniel 12:11 and 11:v.31. It is the END of this world and a sign of the coming of JESUS: Matthew 24:3 combined with Revelation 11:15-18. Blessed is he who waits and comes at 1335 days- Daniel 12:12 , 45 days after finishing the Abomination of Desolation. GET READY
In my vision, and I'm sure of this, the day of Christ's return is the day 1.335 - Daniel 12:12. GOD said: 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Why GOD said that? Exactly 75 days after the END of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27, and 45 days after the END of the Abomination of Desolation.
The question is: How to know by the calendar what day the day 1335 will fall on? Impossible, for now. Anyway, get ready, because it's very close.
GOD BLESS YOU, AND ALL
Greetings in Christ JESUS
See,what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD.The Word is GOD,self-executing,understand?
1 Thess.4:16KJV reveals:The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of GOD:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:The archangel has a name:Michael.The Lord Himself shall descend with the voice of archangel.There will be a WAR against the Devil's world in this current time of Apocalypse
Dan.12:1-3:-1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble(Matt.24:15-25),such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered,every one that shall be found written in the book
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever
Rev.11:15-18KJV
15 And the seventh angel(actually an archangel)sounded;and there were(will be)great voices in heaven,saying,The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ;and he shall reign for ever and ever
18 And the nations were(will be) angry,and thy wrath(GOD'S WRATH)is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged( Daniel 12:3),and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth
Dan.12:10-Many shall be purified,and made white,and tried;but the wicked shall do wickedly:and none of the wicked shall understand;but the wise shall understand.11-From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away,and the abomination(of desolation)set up,there shall be 1290 days.12-Blessed is he that waiteth, and comes to 1335 days.
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible interpretation that the God lays down:
Christ is the author of the Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
...the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
As we approach the end of the world, and Christ's return, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end. This is spoken of as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
Daniel 12:9-10 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Habakkuk 2:2-3 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation is not found in the Bible. It seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the whole Bible is written for us today.
Mark 4:10-12 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body(National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God). When talking about Salvation and the Gospel it is usually the latter; this is the case in Jeremiah as in many other parts of the Bible.
Furthermore, God is revealing truth in our Day that was hidden until we are near the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be read like any other book to understand truth. We must use the principles that God establishes in the Bible to interpret Scripture. And then it is only God Himself that opens our spiritual understanding as we compare Scripture with Scripture applying those principles.
Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Goodmorning.
You asked; When Christ was on the Cross while still alive, the dead arose from the grave and the veil was torn. How did this event affect the House of Israel?
Inside the Veil is where the High priest went in and made the sacrifices for the people of Israel,
The veil separated the people from the Glory of God.
First the High priest would offer a sacrifice for himself before he go in.
If not he would be killed.
If his sacrifice wasn't accepted he would be killed.
This is why they had bells and a rope on him when he went in.
If you no longer hear the bells, that means something happened to him.
You would have to use the rope to pull him out.
These sacrifices had to be offered often, Christ was offered once and for all.
Christ was ending that Priesthood.
See Romans 10:1-21.
Verses 19-20
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Jesus we can enter in!
I will touch on Daniel 12:9-13
later on today,
I'm getting ready for work.
God bless
Thanks for replying.
Jesus didn't come to end the law and make it desolate. He came to fulfill the law and perfect it.
He came to end the Leviticus priesthood where they presented sacrifices that pointed to him.
( Matthew 5:17-18.)
They rejected their king "Which was prophesied" They made their own "HOUSE" desolate. ( A people without a King to set on David's throne )
What the Prince that shall come does is totally different,
In Daniel 9:27 he confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.
This is the same thing mentioned in Daniel 12:11, (The abomination that maketh desolate.)
This is what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:15, ( This can't be at the end of Christ ministry because he said it this abomination would be at the end of the world.)
This 3.5 period is called the GREAT tribulation and it's prophesied towards Daniels "THY PEOPLE, ISRAEL.) Daniel 9:24.
You see this played out in Revelation 12:6.
Let's look at who confirms the covenant for 1 week.
Daniel 9:26-27 reads "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....
The Romans destroyed the Sanctuary, Jesus is not their prince.
Jesus didn't confirm this covenant and cause it to cease at his death.
Jesus death BEGINS a covenant!
The covenant in Daniel is a totally different covenant the Antichrist will confirm with Israel and cause the sacrifices to cease midway through the 70th week/Tribulations.
Revelation 13:15
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.
God bless.
See pt2
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and he answered them in verse 15.
Verses 4-14 would be non signs of the end of the world. He says that in verse 6. "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
And then he goes on with the beginning of these sorrows as mentioned in Matthew 24:8 until he gets to verses 14 and15.
Vs 14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Vs 15. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by "DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
WHOSO READETH, LET HIM UNDERSTAND!!:
Jesus is diverting them back to Daniel 9:27 as the key to end time prophecy. The 70th week of Daniel.
"And he/Antichrist shall confirm the covenant with many FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,)
The Great tribulation begins in the middle of the 70th week with Jesus describing Daniels prophecy as the key and details this event in Matthew 24:16-21.
Daniel 12:9-11 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE set up, there shall be a (thousand two hundred and ninety days). 3.5 years!
Also see Revelation 12:14.
( time, and times, and half a time,)
Another way of saying 3.5 years!
The 70th week of Daniel is future.
God bless.
You asked: Do Believers go through great tribulation?
Yes, they do. Get ready, it will be the last seven years of the Devil's world. It is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of this devilish world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching.
The journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last seven years, and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt. By the way, there will be two BEASTS reigning in the Earth, one Gentile Beast and another Jewish, that is a false lamb, a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR, as prophesied JESUS- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11KJV. The 1st 42 months of the last seven years, it will be ruled by the FIRST Beast enthroned in Jerusalem by the false messiah as is written in Rev.13:2 and 5-KJV. The 2nd Beast -the false messiah-will rule the 2nd half of the last seven years. Get ready.
Daniel in his prophecy, warned, saying: Daniel 12:11-12KJV
11"From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (yes, it shall be taken away because there was a certain period of time to cease the sacrifice or be taken out of the way, the restraining, by the way, the sacrifice of JESUS have lasted until this current time or around 720.000 days, and now will cease) and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. JESUS warned us: Matthew 24:15-"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)if not understand, it may complicate, it is what I think), after all it will be 1290 very tense days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Thank you for your reply.
See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?
By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.
GET READY
You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
GET READY
Thanks, that would be great. I await the findings of your study.
God bless,
RLW
Never mind about grk philosophy, no worry.
I want to do a study about that "spirit of life" that God breathed in Adam and I will come back to this conversation later on.
It is possible that it actually means the Spirit of God or it means that the Spirit of God created life in Adam. Anyway I will leave it for now. GBU
Thanks, brother, I hope you did not take Greek Philosophy personally. I understand the Hebrew word nephesh, it can be any being, dog, cat, or cow. It can also mean a soul, a living being, a dead being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion, basically who we are. When I said the spirit of life, I did not mean it had anything to do with the Spirit of God, sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant spirit/breath as the word neshamah used in Job 27:3.
I understand our being or soul is the same thing it is who we are and who will someday be with Jesus and see God's face. But that day is the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30. In Scripture in death there is no remembrance of us, Psalm 6:5. In death we lie down until, Job 14:12-14 the grave is our house and our bed Job 17:13-16.
We will see death and the grave and our soul will be there Psalm 89:48 and this Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. I know our understanding may be different, but I do not see in Scripture where we or any part of us is immortal until resurrection day 1 Cor. 15:52-53 we will be raised from the grave, us, our soul/being, who we are.
The definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body I do not see in Scripture. It does say there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, death, Ecclesiastes 9:10. I do not see that has changed. I know many understand as you and I hope you take this as just a little of where my understanding comes from, for it does not affect salvation.
The way I see it, we are waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with His reward of eternal life, either we will be alive or asleep in the grave.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, it is a hard subject to discuss because the different understandings of the soul, spirit, and resurrection are so different.
God bless,
RLW
I have visited some Hebrew sites to see how Hebrews understand the verse in Genesis 2:7, ""And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1. Living soul. It is always interpreted as "living being". In Bible (in both Hebrew and Greek) the word soul apart from meaning actually a soul it oftens means "person", "life", "being". In Gen 2:7 it means "being"
2. The breath of life does not mean the Spirit of God. It just shows an action from God that made man alive and that life is shown by breathing.
3. The phrase "breathed into his nostrlis" is always written as "blowing into his nostrils'. In the Septuagint it is almost the same, " And God blowed to his face the blow of life, and man became a living soul (which again is interpreted as "being").
So the whole verse in Gen 2:7 has nothing to do with Spirits and souls. It just talks about the material side of man, soil from the earth that God gave it life.
GBU
I agree with Adam, as we see in Genesis 2:7 that when God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life he became a living soul. When this spirit of life that is given by God leaves us, we are no longer a living soul. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the spirit goes back to God who gave it, that is for all people, saved or not saved.
We cannot live without the spirit, our breath as James 2:26 said without it our body is dead. When we stop breathing and that spirit goes back to God, we are no longer a living soul, as Jesus said on the cross, I commend my spirit, His breath then He died. Jesus did not go to heaven He went to the tomb/grave the same as we will. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected, John 20:17.
My understanding is the confusion comes from Greek Philosophy, the meaning of death, Hades, and the immortality of the soul that merged into the Church with Augustine with the teaching on human nature and the afterlife to Greek philosophies.
Daniel 12:2 is the same as John 5:28-29 that we see in Revelation 20:11-15, the sheep and the goats, we see the last enemy cast into the lake of fire death, and hell/grave. My understanding of Scripture we are mortal, and our breath/spirit goes back to God and our soul no longer lives but is asleep in the grave until we are resurrected from the grave. This body is not what is resurrected it is our soul into our new body, and that is when we will be absent from this body, 1 Cor. 15:42-58.
Can I tell someone who thinks their loved one is in heaven their wrong? No, that would be hurtful. If they ask for my understanding, this is what Scripture says to me.
God bless,
RLW
Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
In Daniel 12:1,2, we read about the resurrection of the body in that final day, but there is no mention of the fate of the spirit of the deceased. Then in the account that Jesus gave of the wealthy man & poor Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), we note that Jesus spoke of three men: one in torment in hell's flames, one in relative peace & comfort in paradise, & with Abraham at his side. If any of these men just remained in the grave, Jesus would not have spoken of life beyond the grave soon after their deaths & such a life where either torment or peace can be experienced.
Even the Apostle Paul expressed his desire to leave this Earth ( Philippians 1:21-24) & to be with Christ, though he was required to continue to be used of God in the Gospel for a little longer. Paul didn't expect to lie in the grave, but his hope was that death would actually be welcome, for it meant that he would be with his Lord & Savior. And in passages such as Revelation 4:4; Revelation 5:5-10; Revelation 19:4; etc. we read about the Elders around God's Throne in Heaven. So I believe that at death our spirits return to God to join the host of Heaven worshiping the Lord of Glory. And when Jesus returns in the clouds to receive His beloved, those who have died in Christ will have their bodies re-formed to join their spirits, & those believers alive at that time will arise physically to be with the Lord forever. All this points to Jesus snatching away His people off the Earth before the awful Judgements of God come upon the unbelieving world. And then we all reign with Christ on the Earth in the Millennium period.
From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.
Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.
If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.
Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.
The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.
Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.
So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.
Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11
Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....
Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....
All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.
All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.
Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.
Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....
Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.
ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.
The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22
Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......
God bless you!
Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.
Luke 12:4-5
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.
Luke 16:22-25
Matt 25:41
Matt 3:12
Matt 25:46
Daniel 12:2
Mark 9:44-49
2 Thess 1:8-9
Rev 20:10
Rev 14:10-11
I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.
Proverbs 1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
God tells us Hell is real!
Read and Believe!
Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.
Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.
I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.
God bless,
RLW
We must always remember that any truth we may have come to is not because we are smarter or wiser than any one else. It is God Himself that must reveal truth to us from His Word, if indeed He has. And He will do that in accordance with His good pleasure on His time table, not ours.
I will say that I did not come to my beliefs regarding the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation Programs and my current understanding of end time events and what God declares about the churches and congregations of our day, solely by my own personal study while isolated somewhere in an ivory tower. But I have been blessed by faithful Bible teachers that have diligently searched the scriptures faithfully applying the principles of Bible interpretation that God has given us in the Bible itself. Some of that teaching can be found today in the ministry of SearchingHisWord and Alameda Bible Fellowship as I referenced previously.
We must also recognize that there are certain truths that could not be understood even by True Believers until we approach the time of the end as we read in Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
And Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
So if there was ever a time when we should be "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so", it is now.
Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.
I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.
Rewards in heaven
Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.
I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.
These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).
To be continued.