Apostle Paul was close to Timothy. Does that mean he wrote Hebrews ?
Hebrews 13:23
Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
Did Apostle Paul write to Jews ? If yes, it was Hebrews and Paul had to be careful of speaking about the Gentiles . We know that the Jews didn't agree with Apostle Paul's epistle because it was hard to understand.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul was a real Jew and wrote in Hebrew .
Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day,ofthe stockofIsrael,ofthe tribeofBenjamin, anHebrewoftheHebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Note: Apostle Paul is a Jew that spoke Hebrew.
Peter, John, James , and Jude all wrote to Israel for the kingdom on earth that's coming, the Messiah of the King .
The Gentiles and a few Jews became Christian first in Antioch. They call Apostle Paul because the Gentiles wanted the gospel of grace and Paul was the man for the Gentiles.
Acts 11:20-26
20And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching theLordJesus.
21And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
25Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Apostle Paul share the gospel of grace to Agrippa . Agrippa always believed the gospel.
Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be aChristian.
Peter is writing to his Jewish followers to not be ashamed of being a Christian in believing the gospel of grace.
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as aChristian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Peter writes to his Jewish followers and tells them that Apostle Paul has the gospel of grace.
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our belovedbrotherPaulalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Today we are being attacked by believing the gospel of grace as a Christian.
What is the second coming of Jesus Christ ? ? The only way to answer this question is to read the scriptures. Jesus Christ was on earth for 33 years and He died on the cross for all our sins. Now Jesus Christ will come again to land on earth, but before He lands, He will call us up, all the grace age church, dead or alive to meet him in the Clouds , it's called the Rapture.
This is the second coming of events of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 13:38-40
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold,hecomethwithclouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
The wicked will be taken out first . That is the the Rapture event.
Matthew 13:41-42
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Peter never speaks of the Rapture, only the second coming of Jesus Christ inwhich is the Tribulation.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Why do Jews in the Old Testament and including the four gospels don't talk about Heaven in the Godhead ? ?
The earthly Kingdom will appear again, but the grace age believes in the Body of Christ Jesus will be taken up in the Rapture first.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look fornewheavens and anewearth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
New Jerusalem will be the new kingdom on earth.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which isnewJerusalem, which cometh down out ofheavenfrom my God: and I will write upon him mynewname.
Jesus Christ will be the New Messiah drinking the cup in New Jerusalem.
Mark 14:25
Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in thekingdomof God.
The Twelve Disiples will have there New Jerusalem, the kingdom on earth.
Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in mykingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Why did Peter have a hard time understanding Paul's wisdom given unto him by the ascended Jesus Christ in Heaven. Was Paul given a different Salvation plan, was Paul given a Rapture plan, was Paul told Jesus Christ is God, was Paul told God is in three parts , did Paul explains the Lord's table, did Paul explains the rules of speaking in tongues, did Paul explains the rule for being a Bishop and Deacon in the church, did Paul teach us the body of Christ , did Paul teach us we are a new creature in Christ, did God make Apostle Paul's epistle for us today for Salvation and doctrine ? ? ? The answer according to Apostle Peter is yes .
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul always calls his writing the word of truth given to him by Jesus Christ the ascended Lord in Heaven.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing thewordoftruth.
To believe Apostle Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is saying I believe the word of truth in Christ for Salvation.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the wordoftruth, thegospelofyoursalvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritofpromise,
May the God in the Third Heaven open your understanding to the word of truth inwhich is the gospel of grace that Jesus Christ gave to Apostle Paul. God will judge us for that gospel one day.
Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christaccordingtomygospel.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 if we believe the gospel ?
Apostle Peter had to tell his Jewish followers to see Apostle Paul for Salvation in his Epistles.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul is giving information that is very important for today.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to youGentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of theGentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of theGentilesbe come in.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ our God
This is speaking about the 7 years of tribulation after the Rapture is already passed. The wicked one will be taken and thrown in fire by angels . This is different from the Rapture. Only Apostle Paul speaks of the Rapture or Gathering.
Matthew 13:38-40
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold,hecomethwithclouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Matthew 13:41-42
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Daniel 9:27
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Hi Darly, how you doing? Apostle Paul is the only one that mentioned third Heaven and it makes sense. The first heaven is the sky and the second heaven is the universe and the Third Heaven is the Holy of the Kingdom God, its be on our thoughts. Thanks for asking. Here's a verse in the KJB ....
2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
just a little food for thought, I've learn so much from Apostle Paul's epistle and still learning. Saint Peter had a hard time understanding Paul's wisdom from the ascended Lord Jesus Christ.
It's amazing that Peter mentioned Paul in one of his last epistles about how hard it is to understand his writings and told his followers to go to Apostle Paul for doctrine.
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Apostle Peter called Apostle Paul brother. Praise the Lord for Salvation in Jesus Christ.
Please use the concordance that this website give us to study the Bible. Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Apostle Paul said by believing this gospel, just might save you, faith plus nothing else
I want to revisit my post of a few weeks ago concerning what Scriptures say about God wanting all men to be saved.
Citing 1 Tim. 2:1-5; 2 Peter 3:3-9.
In my previous post I noted that Scripture clearly teaches that not all men will be saved, as many will be condemned and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Therefore, I think we need to think about the statements of 1 Timothy and 2 Peter (above) in a different light. In my post I cited from a source that spoke of four possible ways to interpret how God "wills" all to be saved.
1) That God will save all humans-Universalism
2) That God was not speaking of all humans-rather all kinds or groups of people.
3) That God has a will of decree that will definitely happen (such as sending the Son to be Savior) and then a will of desire, which may or may not be fulfilled (such as He wants all humans to obey Him, but every human sins), or a will of permitting that allows sinful things to occur, yet He is not the author of sin, nor does He make anyone sin, nor does, He tempt anyone to sin, nor can He ever sin.
4) God has purposes that are higher than and overreaching the desire to save everyone. (As an example, I may wish to spend a day at home to rest, but we have committed to a doctor appt, a visit to a needy friend, and a few other things I purposed to do that day. So, since these commitments take precedence over my desire to rest for the day, I set aside resting for the day and fulfill the commitments. This is certainly not a straight analogy to what God does, though).
After much thought, I will say that I eliminate both positions 1 and 2 and lean towards positions 3 and 4. Perhaps both are true, one is true, or none are true. But I think they make the most logical sense of why God desires to save everyone but does not.
God' wise counsel and good pleasure is the purpose for creation. We may not know what these are as they may be what the Scriptures call the "Hidden Things" that belong to God.
Apostle Paul could not trust his kinsmen or people that spoke the word twisted. They sound and look holy .
2 Corinthians 11:13
For such arefalseapostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Apostle Paul had friends that betrayed him.
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils amongfalsebrethren;
Galatians 2:4
And that because offalsebrethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Be careful of Satan. UFO looks beautiful in the sky's and now the news talks about it.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into anangeloflight.
We must be careful for the ones closest to us that may be deceiving us with the twisted word.
Philippians 4:6
Becarefulfornothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requestsbemade known unto God.
Saint Peter told his people go to Apostle Paul for Salvation 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 .
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brotherPaulalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may God bless you in this GOSPEL
BUT.. Scripture says that God desires all people to be saved.
While 1 Tim. 2 1-8 and 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all people to be saved, it does not say that He decrees it to be so. He is compassionate towards His creatures and does shed His goodness upon creation every day with the reliability of day turning to night to day again, rain in season, multiplication of animals to sustain us, and the yearly regrowth of vegetation for our diet as well. He sometimes spares unregenerate people from disasters and yet allows regenerate people to perish or suffer much loss. He allows both unregenerate and regenerate people to prosper and become rich and also allows both to be impoverished. But the Bible never says that all humans will be saved. It clearly teaches that only the elect will be saved.
I find this excerpt from the site: bibliotodo has a very good explanation for this question. Here is presented the prevalent interpretations to this question. I think it is only fair to present the various sides of this paradox in Scripture. Then is an Excerpt from Marc Sim's blog who explains with a few additional points.
I encourage each person to give this serious thoughtful prayer, including myself, before deciding on why all are not saved if God desires it to be so.
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
Ephesians 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
2 Peter 3:3-13 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth"
FATHER You said that where two or more are gathered YOU shall be in their midst [ Matthew 18:20] We confess our sins and we know that you have forgiven us because it is not your will that any should perish [ 2 Peter 3:9]. FATHER, YOUR SON YESHUA/CHRIST says that anything we ask in HIS NAME YOU shall honor [ John 16:23] so in faith we ask that YOU go ahead of Christian and make the crooked places straight and break the gates of brass and the bars of iron [ Isaiah 45:2] . Still the tongue of the enemy and the avenger [ Psalms 8:2b] Stop, confound and turn back the wicked. Hide Christian under the shadow of your wings [ Psalm 91:1] Let your Word be a lamp unto his feet and light unto his path [ Psalms 119:105] Bridle his tongue when the wicked are around [ Psalms 39:1] Give him the peace which surpasseth all understanding [ Philippians 4:7] Bless the work of his hands [ Deuteronomy 28:12] Cause him to have favor with YOU and with man [ Proverbs 3:4]. Let all evil collaborators turn upon each other as they did when they came against Zerubbabel/ Gideon [ Judges 7:22] For as they come in as one they shall flee as seven [ Deuteronomy 28:7] Your Word said that those who dig a pit they shall fall into it [ Ecclesiastes 10:8] let the wicked whose only plans is to destroy [ Psalm 140:4] your children fall into their own pits and let their own arrows return back to them [] but keep Christian safe, and merited and in good standing that he may have the victory and let all this be applied by extension to his whole house that he may live and give YOU the Glory in YESHUA MIGHTY NAME . Amen!
I agree that this is an evil world we live in and it always has been.
You stated: "They will stand before God one day and hear the truth of their easy evil lives, but it'll be too late. COME JESUS COME. Soon I pray. God bless you all. End quote.
There's a reason why the Lord delay his coming.
Here's why. 2 Peter 3:9.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
There's some that hasn't come to the truth yet.
So praying for Christ's return signifies a longing for the day of redemption and a commitment to live faithfully until then, while also actively sharing the gospel to bring others to Christ during this waiting period.
I agree in every respect, brother. Especially when it comes to judgment. I have to wonder why, if God has already predestined everyone, what would be the purpose of sharing the gospel message of salvation? And why even send missionaries out?
People talk about the Great Commission and how we need to reach the world for Christ. Why so, if it isn't going to make any difference for those who have already predestined to spend eternity in Hell?
If it is God's will that no one should perish but that all would come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9), it would be difficult to connect all this together as to why God would already predetermine ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost!
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
To correctly understand; in the fullness of time who is truly saved is important. I do believe there is something to "election" as God will repeatedly pursue those who are "His sheep". I also believe that God is patient with the wicked every day ( 2 Peter 3:9; but also has a plan for the end of the wicked ( Proverbs 16:4). Again; referring earlier to my post on those who appear friendly but in fact are tares in our midst needs to be factored in here. Oftentimes the focus is on people who never heard the Gospel; in fact they will be judged less harshly than those who know the law ( Luke 12:47-8; Matt. 11:24-25). Overall there will no doubt be some surprises in heaven for the few last minute conversions that we may see. But here I am warning about those we assume believe but in reality don't.
Clearly we approach everyone as though they are potential candidates to receive truth and therefore impartially; as I have brought out. Whether we look at it as people predestined as individuals to be saved or as a general plan for salvation; of course the same theory could be those predestined for destruction. God's plan will eventually commence either at death or when He judges the world in the Tribulation and beyond.
In knowing for whatever reason that some will respond and others not helps us; particularly for those we have time after time witnessed to but just don't get it-again I have seen people who for YEARS attended family Bible studies; gone to church etc but never had a genuine testimony of faith in Christ; OR their fruit was all bad and their lifestyle showed that they were in the catagory of habitual unrepentant sinners. This becomes clearer after some time is passed. Also God's favor or election ISN'T something we should expect those not yet converted to get and we should NOT preach to them that if they are elect they will be saved. Until they are saved we preach repent and believe as they don't know Christ.
I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.
Part 2.
Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!
Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.
Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)
Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.
Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.
How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.
What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?
The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!
One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?
I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
Yes Oseas, I remember that SeanPaul asked this question & I did respond, as did S. Spencer. And we gave him the Scripture, though there was a slight difference in his wording. And now you've confirmed that the "time line you posted it is LITERALLY based in 2 Peter 3:8". How should readers view that statement? If your timeline (and I have no problem with it, give or take), is based on 2 Peter 3:8, it would be logical to believe that, that is the Scripture used to support your timeline, is it not? Then if you used the first part of that verse in support, the question then is, 'what about the second part of that verse (i.e. "and a thousand years as one day")? If we take the first part of a verse, we must take the second part of it as well, because the whole matter is in the whole verse, not just a part of it.
If then 'one day is as a thousand years', then it is true that 'a thousand years is as one day'. Any use of that verse to show that a day equals a thousand years, must also show that a thousand years equals one day. This verse then cancels out your other statement, "the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, so MANKIND would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6000 years)": it all gets cancelled, so that verse cannot be used to prove what you believe, rather the verse is simply an expression of the timeless eternity that God resides in & when His Hand moves, it is not based on our clocks & calendars.
I hope you can see why some of us might be perplexed in your understanding and use of this verse, & not just our responses to SeanPaul.
Oseas. I believe the following is what we are all reading. And this is what you have written:
"Oseas - In Reply - 1 day ago
GOD'S days as being 1 day = 1000 of our years--> 2Peter 3:8
John 5:17-My Lord JESUS said:My Father worketh hitherto,and I work.
GOD sent JESUS in the turn from the fourth Day to the fifth Day, i.e.around 4000 years after Adam,and around 1500 years after Moses.As JESUS said,GOD the Father still was working,in fact until the end of the recent last millennium,the sixth millennium.
Based in the Word of God,on GOD's six Days of creation and one Day of rest(a total of seven days)plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,so MANKIND would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each(a total of 6000 years)plus a Millennium of 1000 years rest(now a total of 7,000 years)".
So, when you say that you're not referring to 2 Peter 3:8, yet writing, "plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years", then you should understand that you are being very confusing to us. The fact that you are using a 6000 year period and then mentioning 2 Peter 3:8 to support your timeline, indicates that you clearly believe that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years". And as S. Spencer has asked, 'What then would you do when "a thousand years is as one day"? We can't pretend it's not there.
Thanks again David0921. To your first two paragraphs, I find complete agreement: that God alone grants salvation to man, for man in his filthy sinful state could never contribute anything to assist in that glorious Plan of God.
But to your third paragraph. From what I gather, you're stating that God did not know (nor did He try to know) who would or would not respond to the Gospel. But He chose to save some regardless. So, would I be correct in understanding that God just picked out certain ones to save & the rest of mankind He rejected? Two areas of concern for me are: I don't believe that anything is outside the Knowledge of God - He knows all - He sees all. If knowing who would respond to Him is outside that knowledge, then you might find it very hard to support that belief, if you believe that God has, or has chosen to have, limited knowledge.
Secondly, Scriptures as John 3:16 ('God so loved the Worldthat WHOSOEVER believeth in Him'), and 2 Peter 3:9 ('The Lordis longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish'), show to me that all sinners, I repeat, ALL sinners are loved by God & the merits of His Son's death availed to all. I simply can't read it as 'God so loved the ones He picked out for salvation, that even though He didn't want any to perish, He, by His selection, would preclude some (or, many) to receive it'. This would also alleviate the necessity to preach the Gospel, even taking it to far off lands, for why should it be done, if God had already picked out His chosen ones & they will be saved regardless of them hearing and responding to the Gospel?
If we are at odds over these few matters, then even the matter of 'salvation being wholly of God alone' doesn't even arise at this stage. Maybe, you could show me what Scriptures support God not having foreknowledge of all things, and also that He selects some, refusing others for His salvation.
Just to reply briefly (since I've written about this to you just now), you cannot use 2 Peter 3:8 to conduct or investigate a timeline as you have shown. It simply doesn't apply. 2 Peter 3:8 is simply an expression used there to demonstrate God's patience & that He is not bound by a clock.
Hi again SeanPaul. Bro S. Spencer has given you a much more detailed understanding of 2 Peter 3:8 than I gave, as he correctly brought in the other Scriptures that point to this verse, giving it meaning, i.e. of the patience & longsuffering of God towards sinful men and the suddenness of God's final actions against evil.
But I'm glad that you have prayed & carefully considered this important verse & surrounding verses and also noting those three points you learned when looking at Scripture. I would also add, that whenever we read Scripture, we must also ask 'why, when, where, & how' as well; we may not always get the answers we seek from the Word, but we need to search as far as we are able. If we don't, then we can easily be misled into all sorts of interpretations, whether from our overactive minds or supposedly, revelations from the Spirit. The Bible is given to us for our learning & when we correctly read what is given, the Spirit of God will interpret it for our understanding & application to our lives.
And of course, we must be able to discern what are expressions in English & what are factual details. And as S. Spencer has stated, if we take 2 Peter 3:8 as a literal fact, then when we try to apply it, those numbers will fail & make the verse & the way we try to use it, meaningless. So, Jesus' example in Matthew 12:40 of His burial for three days & three nights must be taken as literal & not some Hebraic expression, since that's what took place after His crucifixion. But if all references to 'God's Day being a thousand years & a thousand years as one day' is taken as literal, then it would make the Scriptures pertaining to 'one or a thousand' altogether misleading & erroneous, we then forcing them to fit our beliefs.
Sorry, but no I don't understand and haven't payed any attention to your time line,
Just the formula you use.
I've originally seen a post from you maybe a few months back where you mentioned 2 Peter 3:8 as your basis for your "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years formula.
I started to comment then but I didn't.
I'm just asking "Why are you only using half the verse?
If you decide not to answer that that's fine.
But, can you atleast tell me what does the second half of the verse mean? It can't be excused. It's not there for nothing. It's scripture and on the same verse.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and ( A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.)
Does that mean God started his creation 7 days ago?
I know that sounds silly but it's reasonable according to the way you calculate.
Or, When using your interpretation of 2 Peter the way you do is it reasonable to say When God says "And the evening and the morning were the first day" in Genesis 1:5. That also is a thousand years with the evening lasting 500 years and the day lasting 500 years?
Oseas you and I know we are not going to come to an agreement so let's agree to disagree.
Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
OSeas that is just saying God is not bound by times. He's from everlasting to everlasting!
Look at the previous verses to get the context.
Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
And again if Peter is speaking of how we can calculate a day in 2 Peter 3:8 then what does a "thousand years as one day". mean?
Oseas you have to factor that into your equation if it's a way to count down prophecy.
You can't just ignore the second half of this verse.
If it's a formula for time then it brings you a thousand years forward then a thousand years back which is no time at all.
Who wrote the book of Hebrews ? ?
Apostle Paul was close to Timothy. Does that mean he wrote Hebrews ?
Hebrews 13:23
Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
Did Apostle Paul write to Jews ? If yes, it was Hebrews and Paul had to be careful of speaking about the Gentiles . We know that the Jews didn't agree with Apostle Paul's epistle because it was hard to understand.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul was a real Jew and wrote in Hebrew .
Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day,ofthe stockofIsrael,ofthe tribeofBenjamin, anHebrewoftheHebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Note: Apostle Paul is a Jew that spoke Hebrew.
Peter, John, James , and Jude all wrote to Israel for the kingdom on earth that's coming, the Messiah of the King .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Acts 11:20-26
20And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching theLordJesus.
21And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
25Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Apostle Paul share the gospel of grace to Agrippa . Agrippa always believed the gospel.
Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be aChristian.
Peter is writing to his Jewish followers to not be ashamed of being a Christian in believing the gospel of grace.
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as aChristian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Peter writes to his Jewish followers and tells them that Apostle Paul has the gospel of grace.
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our belovedbrotherPaulalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Today we are being attacked by believing the gospel of grace as a Christian.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Christian believe the gospel of grace
This is the second coming of events of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 13:38-40
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold,hecomethwithclouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
The wicked will be taken out first . That is the the Rapture event.
Matthew 13:41-42
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Peter never speaks of the Rapture, only the second coming of Jesus Christ inwhich is the Tribulation.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
The earthly Kingdom will appear again, but the grace age believes in the Body of Christ Jesus will be taken up in the Rapture first.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look fornewheavens and anewearth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
New Jerusalem will be the new kingdom on earth.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which isnewJerusalem, which cometh down out ofheavenfrom my God: and I will write upon him mynewname.
Jesus Christ will be the New Messiah drinking the cup in New Jerusalem.
Mark 14:25
Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in thekingdomof God.
The Twelve Disiples will have there New Jerusalem, the kingdom on earth.
Luke 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in mykingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Kingdom of Heaven on earth will appear again.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul always calls his writing the word of truth given to him by Jesus Christ the ascended Lord in Heaven.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing thewordoftruth.
To believe Apostle Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is saying I believe the word of truth in Christ for Salvation.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the wordoftruth, thegospelofyoursalvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritofpromise,
May the God in the Third Heaven open your understanding to the word of truth inwhich is the gospel of grace that Jesus Christ gave to Apostle Paul. God will judge us for that gospel one day.
Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christaccordingtomygospel.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 if we believe the gospel ?
Apostle Peter had to tell his Jewish followers to see Apostle Paul for Salvation in his Epistles.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Apostle Paul is giving information that is very important for today.
Romans 11:13
For I speak to youGentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of theGentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of theGentilesbe come in.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ our God
This is speaking about the 7 years of tribulation after the Rapture is already passed. The wicked one will be taken and thrown in fire by angels . This is different from the Rapture. Only Apostle Paul speaks of the Rapture or Gathering.
Matthew 13:38-40
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Revelation 1:7
Behold,hecomethwithclouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Matthew 13:41-42
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Daniel 9:27
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
just a little food for thought, I've learn so much from Apostle Paul's epistle and still learning. Saint Peter had a hard time understanding Paul's wisdom from the ascended Lord Jesus Christ.
It's amazing that Peter mentioned Paul in one of his last epistles about how hard it is to understand his writings and told his followers to go to Apostle Paul for doctrine.
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Apostle Peter called Apostle Paul brother. Praise the Lord for Salvation in Jesus Christ.
Please use the concordance that this website give us to study the Bible. Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Apostle Paul said by believing this gospel, just might save you, faith plus nothing else
I want to revisit my post of a few weeks ago concerning what Scriptures say about God wanting all men to be saved.
Citing 1 Tim. 2:1-5; 2 Peter 3:3-9.
In my previous post I noted that Scripture clearly teaches that not all men will be saved, as many will be condemned and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Therefore, I think we need to think about the statements of 1 Timothy and 2 Peter (above) in a different light. In my post I cited from a source that spoke of four possible ways to interpret how God "wills" all to be saved.
1) That God will save all humans-Universalism
2) That God was not speaking of all humans-rather all kinds or groups of people.
3) That God has a will of decree that will definitely happen (such as sending the Son to be Savior) and then a will of desire, which may or may not be fulfilled (such as He wants all humans to obey Him, but every human sins), or a will of permitting that allows sinful things to occur, yet He is not the author of sin, nor does He make anyone sin, nor does, He tempt anyone to sin, nor can He ever sin.
4) God has purposes that are higher than and overreaching the desire to save everyone. (As an example, I may wish to spend a day at home to rest, but we have committed to a doctor appt, a visit to a needy friend, and a few other things I purposed to do that day. So, since these commitments take precedence over my desire to rest for the day, I set aside resting for the day and fulfill the commitments. This is certainly not a straight analogy to what God does, though).
After much thought, I will say that I eliminate both positions 1 and 2 and lean towards positions 3 and 4. Perhaps both are true, one is true, or none are true. But I think they make the most logical sense of why God desires to save everyone but does not.
God' wise counsel and good pleasure is the purpose for creation. We may not know what these are as they may be what the Scriptures call the "Hidden Things" that belong to God.
2 Corinthians 11:13
For such arefalseapostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Apostle Paul had friends that betrayed him.
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils amongfalsebrethren;
Galatians 2:4
And that because offalsebrethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Be careful of Satan. UFO looks beautiful in the sky's and now the news talks about it.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into anangeloflight.
We must be careful for the ones closest to us that may be deceiving us with the twisted word.
Philippians 4:6
Becarefulfornothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requestsbemade known unto God.
Saint Peter told his people go to Apostle Paul for Salvation 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 .
2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brotherPaulalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may God bless you in this GOSPEL
While 1 Tim. 2 1-8 and 2 Peter 3:9 say that God desires all people to be saved, it does not say that He decrees it to be so. He is compassionate towards His creatures and does shed His goodness upon creation every day with the reliability of day turning to night to day again, rain in season, multiplication of animals to sustain us, and the yearly regrowth of vegetation for our diet as well. He sometimes spares unregenerate people from disasters and yet allows regenerate people to perish or suffer much loss. He allows both unregenerate and regenerate people to prosper and become rich and also allows both to be impoverished. But the Bible never says that all humans will be saved. It clearly teaches that only the elect will be saved.
I find this excerpt from the site: bibliotodo has a very good explanation for this question. Here is presented the prevalent interpretations to this question. I think it is only fair to present the various sides of this paradox in Scripture. Then is an Excerpt from Marc Sim's blog who explains with a few additional points.
I encourage each person to give this serious thoughtful prayer, including myself, before deciding on why all are not saved if God desires it to be so.
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
Our faith is in the sacrificial and redemptive work Christ performed on the cross!
When we are born of God: "You are in Christ
We're now Identified with Christ.
This is "Positional sanctification"
It is the work of God whereby He sets us apart and considers us holy in His eyes.
Also there is a practical Sanctification continuously going on.
We are to be growing in the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it.
( Philippians 1:6).
Blessings.
Ephesians 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
2 Peter 3:3-13 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth"
2 Peter 3:9.
God bless you . Be still and encouraged in Jesus name.
I agree that this is an evil world we live in and it always has been.
You stated: "They will stand before God one day and hear the truth of their easy evil lives, but it'll be too late. COME JESUS COME. Soon I pray. God bless you all. End quote.
There's a reason why the Lord delay his coming.
Here's why. 2 Peter 3:9.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
There's some that hasn't come to the truth yet.
So praying for Christ's return signifies a longing for the day of redemption and a commitment to live faithfully until then, while also actively sharing the gospel to bring others to Christ during this waiting period.
God bless.
I agree in every respect, brother. Especially when it comes to judgment. I have to wonder why, if God has already predestined everyone, what would be the purpose of sharing the gospel message of salvation? And why even send missionaries out?
People talk about the Great Commission and how we need to reach the world for Christ. Why so, if it isn't going to make any difference for those who have already predestined to spend eternity in Hell?
If it is God's will that no one should perish but that all would come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9), it would be difficult to connect all this together as to why God would already predetermine ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost!
God Bless!!!
(Part 3):
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
To correctly understand; in the fullness of time who is truly saved is important. I do believe there is something to "election" as God will repeatedly pursue those who are "His sheep". I also believe that God is patient with the wicked every day ( 2 Peter 3:9; but also has a plan for the end of the wicked ( Proverbs 16:4). Again; referring earlier to my post on those who appear friendly but in fact are tares in our midst needs to be factored in here. Oftentimes the focus is on people who never heard the Gospel; in fact they will be judged less harshly than those who know the law ( Luke 12:47-8; Matt. 11:24-25). Overall there will no doubt be some surprises in heaven for the few last minute conversions that we may see. But here I am warning about those we assume believe but in reality don't.
Clearly we approach everyone as though they are potential candidates to receive truth and therefore impartially; as I have brought out. Whether we look at it as people predestined as individuals to be saved or as a general plan for salvation; of course the same theory could be those predestined for destruction. God's plan will eventually commence either at death or when He judges the world in the Tribulation and beyond.
In knowing for whatever reason that some will respond and others not helps us; particularly for those we have time after time witnessed to but just don't get it-again I have seen people who for YEARS attended family Bible studies; gone to church etc but never had a genuine testimony of faith in Christ; OR their fruit was all bad and their lifestyle showed that they were in the catagory of habitual unrepentant sinners. This becomes clearer after some time is passed. Also God's favor or election ISN'T something we should expect those not yet converted to get and we should NOT preach to them that if they are elect they will be saved. Until they are saved we preach repent and believe as they don't know Christ.
I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.
Part 2.
Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!
Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.
Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)
Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.
Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.
How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.
What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?
The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!
One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?
I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.
God bless.
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
If then 'one day is as a thousand years', then it is true that 'a thousand years is as one day'. Any use of that verse to show that a day equals a thousand years, must also show that a thousand years equals one day. This verse then cancels out your other statement, "the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, so MANKIND would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6000 years)": it all gets cancelled, so that verse cannot be used to prove what you believe, rather the verse is simply an expression of the timeless eternity that God resides in & when His Hand moves, it is not based on our clocks & calendars.
I hope you can see why some of us might be perplexed in your understanding and use of this verse, & not just our responses to SeanPaul.
"Oseas - In Reply - 1 day ago
GOD'S days as being 1 day = 1000 of our years--> 2Peter 3:8
John 5:17-My Lord JESUS said:My Father worketh hitherto,and I work.
GOD sent JESUS in the turn from the fourth Day to the fifth Day, i.e.around 4000 years after Adam,and around 1500 years after Moses.As JESUS said,GOD the Father still was working,in fact until the end of the recent last millennium,the sixth millennium.
Based in the Word of God,on GOD's six Days of creation and one Day of rest(a total of seven days)plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years,so MANKIND would go through six GOD Days of 1,000 years each(a total of 6000 years)plus a Millennium of 1000 years rest(now a total of 7,000 years)".
So, when you say that you're not referring to 2 Peter 3:8, yet writing, "plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years", then you should understand that you are being very confusing to us. The fact that you are using a 6000 year period and then mentioning 2 Peter 3:8 to support your timeline, indicates that you clearly believe that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years". And as S. Spencer has asked, 'What then would you do when "a thousand years is as one day"? We can't pretend it's not there.
But to your third paragraph. From what I gather, you're stating that God did not know (nor did He try to know) who would or would not respond to the Gospel. But He chose to save some regardless. So, would I be correct in understanding that God just picked out certain ones to save & the rest of mankind He rejected? Two areas of concern for me are: I don't believe that anything is outside the Knowledge of God - He knows all - He sees all. If knowing who would respond to Him is outside that knowledge, then you might find it very hard to support that belief, if you believe that God has, or has chosen to have, limited knowledge.
Secondly, Scriptures as John 3:16 ('God so loved the Worldthat WHOSOEVER believeth in Him'), and 2 Peter 3:9 ('The Lordis longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish'), show to me that all sinners, I repeat, ALL sinners are loved by God & the merits of His Son's death availed to all. I simply can't read it as 'God so loved the ones He picked out for salvation, that even though He didn't want any to perish, He, by His selection, would preclude some (or, many) to receive it'. This would also alleviate the necessity to preach the Gospel, even taking it to far off lands, for why should it be done, if God had already picked out His chosen ones & they will be saved regardless of them hearing and responding to the Gospel?
If we are at odds over these few matters, then even the matter of 'salvation being wholly of God alone' doesn't even arise at this stage. Maybe, you could show me what Scriptures support God not having foreknowledge of all things, and also that He selects some, refusing others for His salvation.
But I'm glad that you have prayed & carefully considered this important verse & surrounding verses and also noting those three points you learned when looking at Scripture. I would also add, that whenever we read Scripture, we must also ask 'why, when, where, & how' as well; we may not always get the answers we seek from the Word, but we need to search as far as we are able. If we don't, then we can easily be misled into all sorts of interpretations, whether from our overactive minds or supposedly, revelations from the Spirit. The Bible is given to us for our learning & when we correctly read what is given, the Spirit of God will interpret it for our understanding & application to our lives.
And of course, we must be able to discern what are expressions in English & what are factual details. And as S. Spencer has stated, if we take 2 Peter 3:8 as a literal fact, then when we try to apply it, those numbers will fail & make the verse & the way we try to use it, meaningless. So, Jesus' example in Matthew 12:40 of His burial for three days & three nights must be taken as literal & not some Hebraic expression, since that's what took place after His crucifixion. But if all references to 'God's Day being a thousand years & a thousand years as one day' is taken as literal, then it would make the Scriptures pertaining to 'one or a thousand' altogether misleading & erroneous, we then forcing them to fit our beliefs.
Thanks again for your replies.
Sorry, but no I don't understand and haven't payed any attention to your time line,
Just the formula you use.
I've originally seen a post from you maybe a few months back where you mentioned 2 Peter 3:8 as your basis for your "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years formula.
I started to comment then but I didn't.
I'm just asking "Why are you only using half the verse?
If you decide not to answer that that's fine.
But, can you atleast tell me what does the second half of the verse mean? It can't be excused. It's not there for nothing. It's scripture and on the same verse.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and ( A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.)
Does that mean God started his creation 7 days ago?
I know that sounds silly but it's reasonable according to the way you calculate.
Or, When using your interpretation of 2 Peter the way you do is it reasonable to say When God says "And the evening and the morning were the first day" in Genesis 1:5. That also is a thousand years with the evening lasting 500 years and the day lasting 500 years?
Oseas you and I know we are not going to come to an agreement so let's agree to disagree.
God bless you.
Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
OSeas that is just saying God is not bound by times. He's from everlasting to everlasting!
Look at the previous verses to get the context.
Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
And again if Peter is speaking of how we can calculate a day in 2 Peter 3:8 then what does a "thousand years as one day". mean?
Oseas you have to factor that into your equation if it's a way to count down prophecy.
You can't just ignore the second half of this verse.
If it's a formula for time then it brings you a thousand years forward then a thousand years back which is no time at all.
I would re-examine this Oseas.
God bless.