1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two things: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach. The term usurp authority over the man, usurp authority is the word authenticate. It means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
In the church, God has raised up the men to do the praying and the doctrinal teaching. We find out in Titus that the women are to take the younger women and teach them how to keep their home and love their husband and raise their children. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, don't take over for him, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence.
1 Timothy 3:1 - This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Paul starts out by saying this is a true saying, and the word true is the word faithful. This is a faithful saying. Paul uses that phrase several times in his letters. The reason he does is because they had no New Testament in those times. Whenever they talked about the scriptures, it was always the Old Testament, or the Tanak, the Hebrew scripture.
Here is something I would like to share before going through this chapter. In Verses 1 through 7, we have the instruction concerning overseers. The King James text uses the word bishop. And the word is EPISKOPOS, where we get our word Episcopalian from. EPI is over, and SKOPOS is to scope (to see). So, he's an EPI-over SKOPOS-seer. He's an overseer.
In Acts Chapter 20, the overseer is also interchangeable with elder and with pastor. The overseer is the head officer in the church. And that's what he is responsible for. He is responsible for the overseeing of the church, to make sure it functions in the order that God has it in.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have beenkeptsecretfrom the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ has secrets .
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which waskeptsecretsince the world began,
Apostle Paul was revealed the mystery of Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was revealed another mystery.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of thismystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Jesus Christ revealed mystery to Apostle Paul in a revelation.
Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me themystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Apostle Paul know the mystery of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in themysteryof Christ)
Apostle Paul was given the gospel of grace in a mystery.
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was given another mystery in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of thismysteryamong the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Apostle Paul writes about the gathering in the clouds with Jesus Christ and the saved dead saints will rise first in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the deadinChristshall rise first:
Always give thanks in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:18
Inevery thing give thanks: for this is the will of GodinChristJesus concerning you.
Apostle Paul is a preacher, a teacher and a Apostle in Christ.
1 Timothy 2:7
Where unto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truthinChrist, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentilesinfaith and verity.
Deacons are in Christ.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldnessinthe faith which isinChristJesus.
No body knew before the world began, that Apostle Paul was going to be given a revelation in Christ about the gospel of grace .
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given usinChristJesus before the world began,
Hi Giannis, I truly appreciate your time and understanding. The words that come up in 1 Timothy 3:1-3 is " sober and not giving of wine ". My understanding of a Bishop or a Pastor, it's best if they don't drink wine that can get them drunk, grapejuice will be better.
1 Timothy 3:1-3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
Now the wine that Jesus Christ made was not wine that made a person drunk. God speak of being drunk is a sin. Good wine was grapejuice from Heaven.
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forthgoodwine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept thegoodwineuntil now.
In my life time, I will never believe that strong drinks bring in goods things in life. Giannis in no disrespect to wine, I believe that anyone can drink it, but for a Pastor of a church, it's dangerous. I should of be dead at the age 6, my father was a drunk and nearly killed me, by the grace of God, I am alive . I don't hate the alcohol, it's the sin that comes after it. Believe me or not, I still respected my father until he died from illness of alcohol.
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Giannis, thank you and God bless you with the power of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Can a Pastor drink wine or alcohol ? Apostle Paul saids no. A Pastor should never drink alcohol or do drugs . Can a deacon drink wine or alcohol ? Yes , but a little and not to get drunk . Apostle Paul has the rules for Pastors and Deacons in how to run a church and how to live at home.
1 Timothy 3:1-8
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Apostle Paul is giving Timothy instructions for men to become pastors in the church. Apostle Paul never mentioned a woman to becoming a pastor. Bishop means pastor.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
When it comes to becoming a Bishop in the body of the church, it best to have a wive and husband with kids.
Ephesians 5:22-25
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The husband needs to love the wife, like Christ loves the body of the church.
Apostle Paul is my Apostle, my Preacher and my Teacher in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles infaithand verity.
Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you.
The reason some don't believe the trinity is because they don't believe the scriptures and they don't believe Jesus Christ is God.
When you read this verse, Jesus Christ is the Word. The three are one and that means trinity.
1 John 5:7
For there arethreethat bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thesethreeare one.
Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word is God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was theWord, and theWordwas with God, and theWordwas God.
Jesus Christ the Word became flesh on earth.
John 1:14
And theWordwas made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Remember that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Matthew 24:35
Heavenandearthshall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 28:18
AndJesus cameandspake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me inheavenandinearth.
Jesus Christ said that He is God.
Matthew 22:32
IamtheGod of Abraham, andtheGod ofIsaac, andtheGod of Jacob? Godis nottheGod ofthedead, but oftheliving.
Jesus Christ said that the Father in Heaven is one with Him in the Trinity.
John 10:30
IandmyFatherareone.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus Christ is the Godhead.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 God died for us on the cross.
Hello Timmywynne. There are many Scriptures that point to the Triune Nature of God, and specifically, that Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit are revealed to us from the very Being of God the Father. When we think of the Trinity, we know we won't find that word in the Bible, as it is purely a descriptive word of what the Bible declares to be the fullness of God's Being. So to the verses you seek, and you will need to read them fully in your Bible.
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
Hi Bennymkje, thanks for all you're work. If I may add some mystery to the study.
The mystery in God was given to Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul calls his gospel " mine ".
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Apostle Paul was the first to know that the resurrection of Christ Jesus saves just by believing and that is his gospel . 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was the first to know Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was the first to know the Rapture. It's coming soon .
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you amystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
I think it best to take interest in Apostle Paul's mystery the Jesus Christ our God gave him.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may the mystery gospel save you
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2John 5:28-29Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9Acts 24:16Romans 9:12 Corinthians 1:121 Timothy 3:9Hebrews 13:18.
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
Hello Momsage. If I might throw in my understanding to your first question to Richard (i.e."Do you believe God chooses some souls before they are born to be the elect destined for heaven and those who are not the elect destined for Hell?"). I believe that Romans 8:29,30 answers this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
Thank you, brother, I know we have discussed it before and I think we both respect and care for each other as brothers. I will try not to rehash that discussion forgive me if there is some overlap, but could Christ have sinned your answer is no, I will just use this verse James 1:13, your answer, according to this verse He could not even have been tempted but Jesus was tempted or tested and Jesus stayed obedient to the Father. Temptation or testing is for an answer to whether someone will be obedient or disobedient, Romans 5:19.
1 Timothy 3:16 the word manifest is the Greek word phanero meaning to make visible, make clear. Jesus did that. In the flesh, I ask when did this happen? Did this happen when Mary conceived or when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and became the Messiah/Christ?
Hebrews 1:1-3 God spoke to us by His Son every word Jesus said was the word of God, not His. Jesus shunned Philip when he asked Jesus to show them the Father, John 14:9-10, every word Jesus said was the Father.
As I have said when God placed Adam in the garden he did not have a sinful nature but he sinned and was disobedient. Jesus was not conceived by man but by the Holy Ghost, Jesus did not have the sinful nature past down by the first Adam, but He was obedient and did not sin.
I did not say anything about the cross but after Jesus prayed in the garden asking the Father if there was any other way Jesus was obedient to the end, being beaten, nailed to the cross, and giving His life for us.
If the first Adam was created with a sinful nature could God say He saw everything He had made, and it was very good? This sinful nature has a sentence of death, and it was after Adam ate the fruit that it was applied, and it spread to all. Adam was the figure of him that was to come, Jesus, the last Adam who by His obedience we have hope. How can one be obedient if they cannot be disobedient? To say Jesus was sinless and obedient becomes a farce.
our Savior our priest and the only mediator between us, and God was tempted as we are tempted, would not this temptation only be valid if he could succumb to temptation and was able to sin?
As you said,
I know we have discussed this in the past and yes we know each other stance on this.
However, let me share my understanding on this from what I have gathered and some from this very site.
When dealing with whether Christ could have sinned, the short answer is no He's God. I know we don't agree on that so no need for a debate there.
Now, one would ask "how could God (IN THE FLESH) be tempted? That's who Christ was here on earth. God in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16.
You referenced Hebrews 4:15. It reads "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
This doesn't say Jesus was tempted to sin as if he had a sin nature inherited from Adam.
The word tested here is "peiraz" which is to test (objectively) that is endeavor, scrutinize entice discipline: - assay examine go about to prove.
Christ was tested while in the flesh and "can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;
This doesn't mean he is fighting back the urge to sin! It means he's being enticed but yet his testing was to prove him.
You see an example of the word temptation being used this way in James 1:12. The word here is peirasmos. It means putting to proof (by experiment [of good] experience [of evil] solicitation discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation.
Also;
The mocking Christ on the cross was not a test. He was where he wanted to be and doing what he came to do.
They had no power over him and the nails didn't hold him to that cross, love did.
"Does the bible support a women Pastor or Bishop. I know already that the bible supports women in ministering the word, just to clarify."
Based on the qualifications of a Bishop, I do not believe the bible supports a woman Bishop based on qualifications ("This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." 1 Timothy 3:1 KJV), however a Pastor may not necessarily be a Bishop and therefore a woman can be a Pastor or called to be a Pastor, I believe. In this scripture when the bible states a man desiring the office, I believe it is for a male to be a Bishop and not a female, since the qualifications entail having a wife and a man exhibiting leadership over his family and household.
A women and wife can be two different categories, although a wife is a woman, a unmarried woman is not a wife and is not subject to any man, only to God. The bible indicates if a married woman wants to do anything that she should ask her husband, husbands and wives should be on one accord in righteouness.
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" 1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
A sober person is serious person (making and doing what is important, taking the gospel of Jesus Christ seriously. Since as in the office of a Bishop, God is the supervisor of this office, if you will, and God is a spirit. Being able to have a knowing of the unseen presence of God at all times. (all believers should have a God consciousness)
A sober person is a solemn person (being able to perform sacred ceremonies or worship rituals with great importance and in a highly serious manner.
In order for a Bishop to perform this their thinking has to be sober, and not experiencing uncontrolled thoughts, having complete focus and be in charge of his thoughts and thinking on purpose. During times of holy ceremonies a Bishop needs to be fully reverencing God and the things of God, with his heart and mind open to God and not things of the flesh during sacred times and events.
Because all believers need to be serious also and participate in solemn ceremonies a Bishop is needed to be an example of a sober minded person. A Bishop is needed to teach about such things as well.
Respectfully submitted in the name of our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus, the Christ.
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" 1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
Being blameless means having the ability and capacity to be responsible to duties and obligations; and be an example for others on how a responsible person should act or carry themselves.
Earlier in I Timothy 3 it states that if one desires the office of a Bishop. "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." 1 Timothy 3:1 KJV. Any good desires a man (or woman) has comes from God. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17 KJV The desire itself to become a Bishop comes from God. According to scripture only men (or males) can become Bishops.
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Happy Sunday. Some verses that jumped out at me...
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
I'm sure you know this went off topic of my original question, but am happy to discuss as long as this is genuine and respectful.
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
Our GOD and KING shows us the type of person an officer of the church should be. In fact, all believers and members of the body of CHRIST should strive to the same level of sanctification. Our commitment and obligation to the LORD is to follow HIS word.
We seek to glorify and praise HIS name and show our trust in HIM by following HIS word closely as shown in the Scriptures we have in our hand.
May we be crucified in CHRIST and walk in HIS spirit. Galatians 5:16
Thank YOU FATHER, for the joy of the LORD is our strength.
GOD bless everyone this Christmas season, and have a happy New Year!
It would be great to set at a kitchen table and discuss the Bible, but it would be difficult to discuss it without at least a friendly debate, especially on this topic.
You see we start off in our differences with who Jesus is, so we build around this doctrine differently. I believe there is one spirit and one God and he manifest himself in a mystery we cant explain "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness as 1 Timothy 3:16 says it. but the bible is clear on it.
Jesus is God in the flesh and I build from that point of view.
You said your understanding of a living soul is what Adam was, (I agree with that.) what we are, (I agree with that also.) and what Jesus was, (That I DON'T agree with.)
For starters Adam was "MADE" a living soul and we are descendants of Adam.
The scripture doesn't say that about Jesus. In fact, it doesn't even say Adam "was made" a quickening spirit.
was made is in italics.
It should read, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit.
Here's a difference of many between the first and last Adam. In Genesis2:7 it reads "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The first Adam had to have life breathed into him. The last Adam IS LIFE.
You said, "the second man was born without sin because His Father is God, conceived in the womb of Mary, absolutely human without sin. I agree.
We are not even debating on whether Jesus took on human flesh or not.
I'm saying he was in the bosom of the father before then. Ronald the scripture clearly says this.
You gave your understanding that in Hebrews 2:17-18Hebrews 14:21 John 4:2-3 to mean that Jesus was a living soul like you and me except He was anointed without measure with the Spirit of God?
Ronald, I don't hold the view that Jesus was a living soul.
Jesus wasn't born of Adam. He was of the seed of the woman! (That is very different and have meaning of specially done! Something I want have time to get into at the moment. Perhaps others would.
You mentioned Hebrews 2:17-18, Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 4:2-3. Those scriptures say the Jesus came in the flesh.
Yes, he did!
1 Timothy 3:16 tells us who came in the flesh and where he returned.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He came to condemn sin in the flesh as our Kinsman redeemer, something only he could do, "being of the seed of the woman" and not of Adam.
These are my beliefs Ronald.
I will speak on the kinsman Redeemer when time permits.
"But the importance is that everybody must settle it in their own hearts and minds about who Jesus is." So true. This has been discussed I think most know my understanding on this.
Was He just a great man? 1 Timothy 2:5Numbers 23:19 1 Hosea 11:19 Corinthians 15:21-22 Was He just a great teacher? John 3:2 Was He a great healer? Luke 4:18-19 Was He a prophet? Deuteronomy 18:18 Was He the brother of Satan? No, He is the only begotten Son, John 3:161 John 4:14. Was He Michael the archangel? No, Hebrews 1:5. Or was He God in the flesh? 1 Timothy 3:16 manifest, (make clear, make known) John 5:19. Did Peter give the right answer? Yes.
This doctrine was developed almost 400 years after Jesus's crucifixion, today in Christianity salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. If that is true. Why is it not taught anywhere in the New Testament?
If Jesus is God why would God have to anoint Him with His Spirit? Did Jesus do the works and the miracles or did God the Father by His Spirit/Holy Spirit? Is salvation at the mercy of the belief in the Trinity doctrine? Did Jesus say the Father was His God? Could God fulfill the law that was made for man? Did God give Himself or His Son that we would not perish? If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the Son?
Jesus said this, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Philippians 1:9 states; "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all JUDGMENT;
Here I believe Judgment is speaking of discernment.
Part 1.
Something to notice about 1 John 2 and 1 John 4. In 1 John when you study it carefully, you see John using the contrast of loving your brother "which is hating your brother" to illustrate the heart of nonbelievers who "say" they love God. John is saying if you don't love your brother, you don't love God!
Look at verse 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
It all begins in Bethlehem! Christ was born in Bethlehem. It's the incarnation is where we begin!
Calvary and the Garden tomb are meaningless unless he is who he claims to be. God in the flesh! 1 Timothy 3:16.
One way you can determine the false teacher is he will deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and behind this doctrine and the lack of the Spirit, he will have no love for the Brothern. This is the Spirit of the Antichrist.
John has much to say about the deity of Christ. John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
1 John he has a lot to say about the Antichrist in the world.
These false teachers appeals to the flesh! We have the Spirit of Christ which protects us.
Verse 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. These false teachers intellectually appeal to the world through their fleshly minds.
Verse 5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
God's children "WILL" respond to God's word.
Verse 7, Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two things: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach. The term usurp authority over the man, usurp authority is the word authenticate. It means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
In the church, God has raised up the men to do the praying and the doctrinal teaching. We find out in Titus that the women are to take the younger women and teach them how to keep their home and love their husband and raise their children. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, don't take over for him, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence.
1 Timothy 3:1 - This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Paul starts out by saying this is a true saying, and the word true is the word faithful. This is a faithful saying. Paul uses that phrase several times in his letters. The reason he does is because they had no New Testament in those times. Whenever they talked about the scriptures, it was always the Old Testament, or the Tanak, the Hebrew scripture.
Here is something I would like to share before going through this chapter. In Verses 1 through 7, we have the instruction concerning overseers. The King James text uses the word bishop. And the word is EPISKOPOS, where we get our word Episcopalian from. EPI is over, and SKOPOS is to scope (to see). So, he's an EPI-over SKOPOS-seer. He's an overseer.
In Acts Chapter 20, the overseer is also interchangeable with elder and with pastor. The overseer is the head officer in the church. And that's what he is responsible for. He is responsible for the overseeing of the church, to make sure it functions in the order that God has it in.
Jesus Christ kept the resurrection a secret.
Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have beenkeptsecretfrom the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ has secrets .
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which waskeptsecretsince the world began,
Apostle Paul was revealed the mystery of Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was revealed another mystery.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of thismystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Jesus Christ revealed mystery to Apostle Paul in a revelation.
Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me themystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Apostle Paul know the mystery of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in themysteryof Christ)
Apostle Paul was given the gospel of grace in a mystery.
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was given another mystery in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of thismysteryamong the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Apostle Paul writes about the gathering in the clouds with Jesus Christ and the saved dead saints will rise first in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the deadinChristshall rise first:
Always give thanks in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:18
Inevery thing give thanks: for this is the will of GodinChristJesus concerning you.
Apostle Paul is a preacher, a teacher and a Apostle in Christ.
1 Timothy 2:7
Where unto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truthinChrist, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentilesinfaith and verity.
Deacons are in Christ.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldnessinthe faith which isinChristJesus.
No body knew before the world began, that Apostle Paul was going to be given a revelation in Christ about the gospel of grace .
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given usinChristJesus before the world began,
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Timothy 3:1-3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
Now the wine that Jesus Christ made was not wine that made a person drunk. God speak of being drunk is a sin. Good wine was grapejuice from Heaven.
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forthgoodwine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept thegoodwineuntil now.
In my life time, I will never believe that strong drinks bring in goods things in life. Giannis in no disrespect to wine, I believe that anyone can drink it, but for a Pastor of a church, it's dangerous. I should of be dead at the age 6, my father was a drunk and nearly killed me, by the grace of God, I am alive . I don't hate the alcohol, it's the sin that comes after it. Believe me or not, I still respected my father until he died from illness of alcohol.
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Giannis, thank you and God bless you with the power of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
May we all believe the Resurrection.
1 Timothy 3:1-8
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
May the gospel of grace change your life
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
When it comes to becoming a Bishop in the body of the church, it best to have a wive and husband with kids.
Ephesians 5:22-25
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The husband needs to love the wife, like Christ loves the body of the church.
Apostle Paul is my Apostle, my Preacher and my Teacher in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles infaithand verity.
Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Let the gospel of grace change your life.
When you read this verse, Jesus Christ is the Word. The three are one and that means trinity.
1 John 5:7
For there arethreethat bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thesethreeare one.
Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word is God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was theWord, and theWordwas with God, and theWordwas God.
Jesus Christ the Word became flesh on earth.
John 1:14
And theWordwas made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Remember that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Matthew 24:35
Heavenandearthshall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 28:18
AndJesus cameandspake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me inheavenandinearth.
Jesus Christ said that He is God.
Matthew 22:32
IamtheGod of Abraham, andtheGod ofIsaac, andtheGod of Jacob? Godis nottheGod ofthedead, but oftheliving.
Jesus Christ said that the Father in Heaven is one with Him in the Trinity.
John 10:30
IandmyFatherareone.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus Christ is the Godhead.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 God died for us on the cross.
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
The mystery in God was given to Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul calls his gospel " mine ".
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Apostle Paul was the first to know that the resurrection of Christ Jesus saves just by believing and that is his gospel . 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was the first to know Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was the first to know the Rapture. It's coming soon .
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you amystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
I think it best to take interest in Apostle Paul's mystery the Jesus Christ our God gave him.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may the mystery gospel save you
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9 Acts 24:16 Romans 9:1 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 3:9 Hebrews 13:18.
This is my understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
Thanks for responding.
Part 1.
Your quote in response to me as follows;
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
See part 2 Jaz.
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
Thank you, brother, I know we have discussed it before and I think we both respect and care for each other as brothers. I will try not to rehash that discussion forgive me if there is some overlap, but could Christ have sinned your answer is no, I will just use this verse James 1:13, your answer, according to this verse He could not even have been tempted but Jesus was tempted or tested and Jesus stayed obedient to the Father. Temptation or testing is for an answer to whether someone will be obedient or disobedient, Romans 5:19.
1 Timothy 3:16 the word manifest is the Greek word phanero meaning to make visible, make clear. Jesus did that. In the flesh, I ask when did this happen? Did this happen when Mary conceived or when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and became the Messiah/Christ?
Hebrews 1:1-3 God spoke to us by His Son every word Jesus said was the word of God, not His. Jesus shunned Philip when he asked Jesus to show them the Father, John 14:9-10, every word Jesus said was the Father.
As I have said when God placed Adam in the garden he did not have a sinful nature but he sinned and was disobedient. Jesus was not conceived by man but by the Holy Ghost, Jesus did not have the sinful nature past down by the first Adam, but He was obedient and did not sin.
I did not say anything about the cross but after Jesus prayed in the garden asking the Father if there was any other way Jesus was obedient to the end, being beaten, nailed to the cross, and giving His life for us.
If the first Adam was created with a sinful nature could God say He saw everything He had made, and it was very good? This sinful nature has a sentence of death, and it was after Adam ate the fruit that it was applied, and it spread to all. Adam was the figure of him that was to come, Jesus, the last Adam who by His obedience we have hope. How can one be obedient if they cannot be disobedient? To say Jesus was sinless and obedient becomes a farce.
God bless,
RLW
Part 1.
You stated; "We are told
our Savior our priest and the only mediator between us, and God was tempted as we are tempted, would not this temptation only be valid if he could succumb to temptation and was able to sin?
As you said,
I know we have discussed this in the past and yes we know each other stance on this.
However, let me share my understanding on this from what I have gathered and some from this very site.
When dealing with whether Christ could have sinned, the short answer is no He's God. I know we don't agree on that so no need for a debate there.
Now, one would ask "how could God (IN THE FLESH) be tempted? That's who Christ was here on earth. God in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16.
You referenced Hebrews 4:15. It reads "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
This doesn't say Jesus was tempted to sin as if he had a sin nature inherited from Adam.
The word tested here is "peiraz" which is to test (objectively) that is endeavor, scrutinize entice discipline: - assay examine go about to prove.
Christ was tested while in the flesh and "can be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;
This doesn't mean he is fighting back the urge to sin! It means he's being enticed but yet his testing was to prove him.
You see an example of the word temptation being used this way in James 1:12. The word here is peirasmos. It means putting to proof (by experiment [of good] experience [of evil] solicitation discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation.
Also;
The mocking Christ on the cross was not a test. He was where he wanted to be and doing what he came to do.
They had no power over him and the nails didn't hold him to that cross, love did.
He could have come down any time he wanted to.
He was in control, not them! John 19:9-11.
See Part 2.
The tempting of Satan.
"Does the bible support a women Pastor or Bishop. I know already that the bible supports women in ministering the word, just to clarify."
Based on the qualifications of a Bishop, I do not believe the bible supports a woman Bishop based on qualifications ("This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." 1 Timothy 3:1 KJV), however a Pastor may not necessarily be a Bishop and therefore a woman can be a Pastor or called to be a Pastor, I believe. In this scripture when the bible states a man desiring the office, I believe it is for a male to be a Bishop and not a female, since the qualifications entail having a wife and a man exhibiting leadership over his family and household.
A women and wife can be two different categories, although a wife is a woman, a unmarried woman is not a wife and is not subject to any man, only to God. The bible indicates if a married woman wants to do anything that she should ask her husband, husbands and wives should be on one accord in righteouness.
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" 1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
A sober person is serious person (making and doing what is important, taking the gospel of Jesus Christ seriously. Since as in the office of a Bishop, God is the supervisor of this office, if you will, and God is a spirit. Being able to have a knowing of the unseen presence of God at all times. (all believers should have a God consciousness)
A sober person is a solemn person (being able to perform sacred ceremonies or worship rituals with great importance and in a highly serious manner.
In order for a Bishop to perform this their thinking has to be sober, and not experiencing uncontrolled thoughts, having complete focus and be in charge of his thoughts and thinking on purpose. During times of holy ceremonies a Bishop needs to be fully reverencing God and the things of God, with his heart and mind open to God and not things of the flesh during sacred times and events.
Because all believers need to be serious also and participate in solemn ceremonies a Bishop is needed to be an example of a sober minded person. A Bishop is needed to teach about such things as well.
Respectfully submitted in the name of our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus, the Christ.
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" 1 Timothy 3:2 KJV
vigilant means alert (not disillusioned about reality); able to avoid danger (having the wisdom to keep God's people safe).
An example of thinking and doing right, a good decision maker.
Being blameless means having the ability and capacity to be responsible to duties and obligations; and be an example for others on how a responsible person should act or carry themselves.
Earlier in I Timothy 3 it states that if one desires the office of a Bishop. "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." 1 Timothy 3:1 KJV. Any good desires a man (or woman) has comes from God. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17 KJV The desire itself to become a Bishop comes from God. According to scripture only men (or males) can become Bishops.
A Bishop must be blameless (responsible).
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
We seek to glorify and praise HIS name and show our trust in HIM by following HIS word closely as shown in the Scriptures we have in our hand.
May we be crucified in CHRIST and walk in HIS spirit. Galatians 5:16
Thank YOU FATHER, for the joy of the LORD is our strength.
GOD bless everyone this Christmas season, and have a happy New Year!
December 21, 2023
It would be great to set at a kitchen table and discuss the Bible, but it would be difficult to discuss it without at least a friendly debate, especially on this topic.
You see we start off in our differences with who Jesus is, so we build around this doctrine differently. I believe there is one spirit and one God and he manifest himself in a mystery we cant explain "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness as 1 Timothy 3:16 says it. but the bible is clear on it.
Jesus is God in the flesh and I build from that point of view.
You said your understanding of a living soul is what Adam was, (I agree with that.) what we are, (I agree with that also.) and what Jesus was, (That I DON'T agree with.)
For starters Adam was "MADE" a living soul and we are descendants of Adam.
The scripture doesn't say that about Jesus. In fact, it doesn't even say Adam "was made" a quickening spirit.
was made is in italics.
It should read, "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit.
Here's a difference of many between the first and last Adam. In Genesis2:7 it reads "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The first Adam had to have life breathed into him. The last Adam IS LIFE.
You said, "the second man was born without sin because His Father is God, conceived in the womb of Mary, absolutely human without sin. I agree.
We are not even debating on whether Jesus took on human flesh or not.
I'm saying he was in the bosom of the father before then. Ronald the scripture clearly says this.
Thanks again Ronald.
God bless.
Part 2.
You gave your understanding that in Hebrews 2:17-18 Hebrews 14:2 1 John 4:2-3 to mean that Jesus was a living soul like you and me except He was anointed without measure with the Spirit of God?
Ronald, I don't hold the view that Jesus was a living soul.
Jesus wasn't born of Adam. He was of the seed of the woman! (That is very different and have meaning of specially done! Something I want have time to get into at the moment. Perhaps others would.
You mentioned Hebrews 2:17-18, Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 4:2-3. Those scriptures say the Jesus came in the flesh.
Yes, he did!
1 Timothy 3:16 tells us who came in the flesh and where he returned.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
He came to condemn sin in the flesh as our Kinsman redeemer, something only he could do, "being of the seed of the woman" and not of Adam.
These are my beliefs Ronald.
I will speak on the kinsman Redeemer when time permits.
God bless.
"But the importance is that everybody must settle it in their own hearts and minds about who Jesus is." So true. This has been discussed I think most know my understanding on this.
Was He just a great man? 1 Timothy 2:5 Numbers 23:19 1 Hosea 11:19 Corinthians 15:21-22 Was He just a great teacher? John 3:2 Was He a great healer? Luke 4:18-19 Was He a prophet? Deuteronomy 18:18 Was He the brother of Satan? No, He is the only begotten Son, John 3:16 1 John 4:14. Was He Michael the archangel? No, Hebrews 1:5. Or was He God in the flesh? 1 Timothy 3:16 manifest, (make clear, make known) John 5:19. Did Peter give the right answer? Yes.
This doctrine was developed almost 400 years after Jesus's crucifixion, today in Christianity salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. If that is true. Why is it not taught anywhere in the New Testament?
If Jesus is God why would God have to anoint Him with His Spirit? Did Jesus do the works and the miracles or did God the Father by His Spirit/Holy Spirit? Is salvation at the mercy of the belief in the Trinity doctrine? Did Jesus say the Father was His God? Could God fulfill the law that was made for man? Did God give Himself or His Son that we would not perish? If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the Son?
Jesus said this, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Acts 4:12 God bless,
RLW
Here I believe Judgment is speaking of discernment.
Part 1.
Something to notice about 1 John 2 and 1 John 4. In 1 John when you study it carefully, you see John using the contrast of loving your brother "which is hating your brother" to illustrate the heart of nonbelievers who "say" they love God. John is saying if you don't love your brother, you don't love God!
Look at verse 2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
It all begins in Bethlehem! Christ was born in Bethlehem. It's the incarnation is where we begin!
Calvary and the Garden tomb are meaningless unless he is who he claims to be. God in the flesh! 1 Timothy 3:16.
One way you can determine the false teacher is he will deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and behind this doctrine and the lack of the Spirit, he will have no love for the Brothern. This is the Spirit of the Antichrist.
John has much to say about the deity of Christ. John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
1 John he has a lot to say about the Antichrist in the world.
These false teachers appeals to the flesh! We have the Spirit of Christ which protects us.
Verse 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. These false teachers intellectually appeal to the world through their fleshly minds.
Verse 5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
God's children "WILL" respond to God's word.
Verse 7, Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
John having given a warning of false teachers, John returns to the theme of this section.
See Part 2.