Discuss 1 Thessalonians 4

  • AaronR - In Reply - 2 months ago
    The Bible describes a sequence of events related to the rapture and judgment, and there are different interpretations among Christians regarding these events. Here are some key points based on Scripture:

    1. **The Rapture**: The rapture refers to the event when believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is described in ** 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

    2. **Judgment**: After the rapture, believers will face the **Bema Seat Judgment** (or Judgment Seat of Christ), where they will be evaluated for their works and faithfulness, not for salvation. This is described in ** 2 Corinthians 5:10**: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    3. **Who are Saved**: Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. ** John 3:16** states, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are considered saved and will be with Him.

    4. **Final Judgment**: There is also a final judgment for those who are not saved, often referred to as the Great White Throne Judgment, described in ** Revelation 20:11-15**. This judgment is for those who have not accepted Christ and will result in separation from God.

    In summary, after the rapture, believers will be with the Lord and will face the Bema Seat Judgment based on their works, while salvation is granted to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. If you have more questions or would like to explore this topic further, feel free to ask!
  • Ronald Whittemore - 3 months ago
    Just some thoughts on Revelation 12 it covers the past and the future up to the beginning of the 3.5 years of tribulation.

    Part 3

    Satan then goes after the remnant of her seed those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The remnant of her seed is the faithful people here when the tribulation starts. Like the ones before us who have been persecuted and killed, the fathers and prophets, and after Jesus the thousands upon thousands who have been tortured and killed in the name of Jesus, why would the last be spared when the first was not?

    This starts the 3.5 years of tribulation as we see in Revelation 13, in the original text it is Satan standing on the sand of the sea to give his power, his seat, and great authority to the beast. We see in Rev. 11:7 and Rev. 17:8 that this is the bottomless pit. There are not seven years as some say we see when Satan is cast down and the beast rises, he is given only 42 months, and that is 3.5 years Revelation 13:5. It all starts when Satan is cast down the short time he has is 3.5 years.

    The end of the 3.5 years will be when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, Luke 21:24 Romans 11:25 Revelation 11:2. Then the second coming of Jesus, Matthew 24:29-31 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Revelation 1:7 Revelation 3:11 Revelation 19:11-16 Revelation 22:12.

    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    This is what is coming, everyone will be tempted to take the mark of the beast, Jesus will give us if we are here the strength to say no even if we face death. Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 15:2

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Oseas - 4 months ago
    Acts 14:22

    22 Confirming the souls of the disciples,and exhorting them to continue in the faith,and that WE MUST through much TRIBULATION enter into the kingdom of GOD.

    Re.11:15:The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(DEVIL's WORLD)are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ;and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Re.11:18-And the NATIONS were(will be)angry(why?),and GOD's WRATH is come...-->WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES IN ALL THE NATIONS?All will see from now on.The message for ALL the believers is:GET READY,and do what the Lord GOD commands:--> Isaiah 26:20-21,and trust in the Word of GOD--> Psalm 91 among many other biblical references.

    NOW,even now,the current time-->it is the time of the dead that they should be Judged--> Isaiah 26:19 combined with Daniel 12:1-4,and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16;

    NOW, even now-->the Lord GOD should give REWARD unto His servants the prophets,and to the saints( 1Corinthians 6:2 combined with Daniel 7:22 andd 26-27),and them that fear HIS NAME,small and great;

    NOW,even NOW,from NOW on -->our Lord GOD should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.-> 2Peter 3:11->Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(AS AN IMPLOSION),what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of GOD, wherein the heavens being on fire(THE HEAVENLY ENVIRONMENT ESTABLISHED BY GOD OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS-BOTH COVENANTS)shall be DISSOLVED,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13Nevertheless we,according to his promise,look for new heavens and a NEW earth( Acts 3:19-21),wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Revelation 16:15-->15Behold,I come as a thief.Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.

    Mat.24:22-23

    22And except these days should be shortened,there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake these days shall be shortened.

    23Then if any man shall say unto you,Lo,here is Christ,or there;believe it not.->be careful
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 5 months ago
    Hey Richard,

    Thank you for your reply, many consider this subject non-discussable.

    As for Luke 15 and 16, if one takes this as a real story that would mean when we die, we go to Hades, the saved go to the good side and the lost are in the flames. I am sorry I do not see that in Scripture, this chapter is parables given to the Pharisees and scribes for their murmuring and their unrighteous love of mammon/money and their neglect of the true riches.

    I understand you and others do not believe we sleep in death until the resurrection. The Greek philosophy of the meaning of death is the separation of the soul from the body, and our soul is immortal which was introduced into the Roman Church this is not from Scripture our soul can die, Daniel 12:2 1 Thessalonians 4:14, and many more.

    The word Godhead is in the KJV 3 times, three different Greek words meaning Divine, Divinity, and Deity changed to Godhead in the 16th Century, which can be misleading. My understanding is Jesus's victory was not won until God raised Jesus from death. "His soul was proclaiming the truth to the lost in hades" I suppose this is from 1 Peter 3:18-20, nowhere does this say Jesus was in Hades, these are people before the flood and it also says it was after He was quickened by the Spirit, so He was not in the grave.

    Ephesians 4:8 Jesus led captivity captive that is those in captivity of sin captive to Himself, not OT saints from the grave. If the OT saints were resurrected when He was why would He leave David, Acts 2:29-34 the Firstfruits will not be raised until Jesus returns.

    In John 8:28 "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he" Matthew 27:50-54 is the fulfillment. Jesus was in and out of consciousness on the cross when He cried out the word resurrection is a Greek word meaning waking up, all the things in 51-53 happened when Jesus died, the saints did not go to heaven they went into Jerusalem and appeared to many.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Oseas - In Reply - 6 months ago
    Shantel

    Yes, The whole Word of God is a PROPHECY of the Kingdom of GOD, including the book of Genesis; as you have said.

    Genesis 1:26-27

    27 So GOD created man in His own image, in the image of GOD created He him; male and female created He them.

    28 And GOD blessed them, and GOD said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it

    To frutify, and multiply, and to replenish th earth, GOD created the woman, by allegory the true Church of the Lord.

    GOD sent JESUS and JESUS came in the fourth Day-the Greater Light- around 4000 yers after Adam- John 5:17. Around 27/30AD, i.e. in the beginning of the fifth Day, around 2000 years ago, JESUS said to the Jews: John 2:19 and 21: ->19 Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    21 But he spake of the temple of His body. (what our Lord JESUS said and revealed, physically He would resurrect in the third day (a day of 24 hours, of course); but spiritually, our Lord was speaking of his body the Church, it will rise up now in the 3rd Day, a Day of 1000 years, after have bear fruit, multiplied itself for 2000 years, and will replenish the earth with the resurrection of multitudes according 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:

    15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel(Michael- Daniel 12:1-3), and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the believers in Christ JESUS)

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud(the same cloud in Acts 1:9-11,take a look), to meet the Lord in the air(on high, the 3rd heaven- Micah 4:1-8 combined with 2Corinthians 12:2-4 and Luke 20:35-36, among other biblical references, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    GOD BLESS

    Isaiah 28:21 and 10:23; Romans 9:28 and 8:18-25
  • Ronald Whittemore - 7 months ago
    Just a little on when Jesus returns.

    Scripture tells us Jesus returns only one time, Zachariah 14:4 Matthew 24:30 Acts 1:11 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Hebrews 9:28 Rev. 1:7 Rev. 6:15-16. When Jesus returns those who are chosen and faithful are resurrected to reign on earth with Jesus, Rev. 17:14 Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:26-27 2 Timothy 2:12 Rev. 5:10 Rev. 11:15.

    This reign on earth begins after the tribulation and the armies of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and the ten kings/countries of the beast who destroy mystery Babylon come to battle Jesus in the battle of Armageddon, Zachariah 14:1-3 Ezekiel 39:17-22 Rev. 19:17-19 Rev. 16:13-16. In Rev. 20 we see Satan bound and sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Jesus then sets up the Kingdom on earth and we see the judgment of those in the first resurrection who will be reigning with Jesus on earth for 1000 years Rev. 20:4-6.

    The 1000-year Kingdom will be on the earth, but it will be very different from the world today without the temptation of Satan, Isaiah 65:25 Zechariah 14:16 It will be a time when Lord Jesus and those chosen to rule the nations with an iron rod so that all the promises of God be fulfilled, all the boundaries of land God promised Abraham have never been, Genesis 15:18-20 Numbers 34:1-12 but they will in the future.

    We know from Rev. 20:7-10, that there will be nations after the 1000 years that Satan will go out to deceive and bring them together to battle. After this battle, a fire burns up the earth and Satan is cast into the lake of fire, "the earth and the heaven fled away" The final Judgment of the white throne is not just for the lost, and all in this judgment who is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:11-15, Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:32-46 John 5:28-29.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Oseas - In Reply - 7 months ago
    That's good, brother Bennymkje, may our Lord GOD bless us today and always, and give us His protection.

    You know, our conversation is in heaven( Ephesians 1:3-8); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. By the way, The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death-1Co.15:26 combined with Luke 20:35-36. It is the Power, great mystery. Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Romans 8:18-19.

    As is written, look up, and lift up your heads; your redemption draweth nigh. Aleluia!

    Furthermore, the current time, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, it is of resurrection - Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 11:15-18 - and we which are alive and remain - We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED(by the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD, self-executing), i.e. we shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air( Isaiah 60:8), i.e. to meet the Lord in the 3rd heaven, 3rd heavenly place in Christ( 2Corinthians 12:1-4), and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --> Would it be or will it be in the day 1335, the misterious biblical day, day 1335? 45 days after 1290 days? Daniel 12:12.

    Wherefore comfort one another with these words- 1 Thessalonians 4:18 combined with Daniel 12:2-11.

    Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing.

    May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection, today and ever

    Amen
  • Oseas - 7 months ago
    Speaking of John the Baptist, JESUS said: Luke 7:27 - This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    And now? Who will be sent before JESUS's coming? Now is sent Michael- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12.

    And what is the current mission of Michael in this world of Devil?

    Now, now, don't you know?

    He will do the same he did in Sodom and Gomorrah, of the same manner as he revealed it to Lot: Remember: He asked to Lot: Has you here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will DESTROY this place(NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE), because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord has sent us to DESTROY it.

    And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, GET YOU OUT OF THIS PLACE; for the Lord will DESTROY this city (NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE). But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

    Revelation 11:15-18. Take a look.

    Be careful or else get ready
  • Richard H Priday - 7 months ago
    Finding consolation in tragedy.

    Just in the last few weeks someone in my church had two neighbors die; one after a rather brief time span after a massive heart attack; another suddenly and unexpectedly who was much younger. This has brought an openness to one relative to visit church who previously was closeminded; and in the other case it appears the estranged husband of this woman is likely a believer and never divorced but remained separated after leaving due to her bipolar condition causing much contention and strife previously.

    These opportunities were paved by this woman and her husband who is a deacon in our church who have tirelessly been witnessing both with example (visiting in the hospital and practical needs) as well as with the Word of God for a number of years.

    This doesn't make the grief any less real; but evidence of the Lord at work in the situation is an encouragement to everyone.

    Last night I watched a murder mystery related to "Kathy's Law" which basically a family whose daugher was raped and murdured pushed hard after her death for a law to get DNA on anyone arrested and not wait for a conviction for the law to allow this; and it was finally passed in New Mexico. The end of the show was encouraging when they finally caught the man who did it and after he asked for forgiveness the family accepted it as they ultimately wanted to see him saved. He is to spend the rest of his life in jail as should happen to have any stability in society in rendering due justice. This situation shows how no matter what happens we should want to see people saved.

    Ultimately; of course scripture says for the believer we read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Those who die in the Lord are in His presence and we shall see them in eternity after we are raptured or resurrected. I believe we would envy their state and they pity us
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Jaz.

    Part 3.

    How should Christian treat one another?

    We are to be at peace with one another, forgive one another, have mercy on one another.

    Just a few references.

    1 Thessalonians 4:9

    Ephesians 4:32

    Galatians 5:26

    Galatians 6:2

    Matthew 7:12

    1 John 4:7

    However, we don't lie or deceive one another for the sake of peace. The truth hurts sometimes but it promotes spiritual growth providing that the Christ spirit is in the person.

    BELEIVERS SHUNNING OTHER BELEIVERS.

    To shun is to deliberately avoid something or someone. In the Bible, the word shun is applied to evil. Job 1:8, Job 28:28, Proverbs 3:7-8 Proverbs 14:16. So, shunning evil is good.

    There is scripture that promotes excommunication. Matthew 18:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:14. but do we do it for harm or Good? What's the intent?

    In any case, it would seem that extreme forms of shunning, such as considering someone "dead," utterly ignoring him, or refusing to acknowledge his existence, go beyond what Scripture commands.

    After all, Jesus said that, when someone is put out of the church, he should be treated as "a pagan or a tax collector" Matthew 18:17. In other words, treat an intractable offender as an unsaved person.

    How are we to treat the unsaved? With love and grace.

    The "pagans and tax collectors" need to be evangelized. We are to love even our enemies ( Matthew 5:44).

    The goal of excommunication and any form of shunning is restoration ( Galatians 6:1).

    The purpose of any type of discipline is to prompt repentance and, ultimately, to reunite our fallen brother or sister with the church body. Being officially ostracized from the church, the sinner might be brought to repentance.

    When the man in the Corinthian church later realized that he had sinned against God, he repented and came back to the church for forgiveness and reinstatement. Fellowship with the Corinthian believers was restored ( 2 Corinthians 2:6-11).

    Isn't it hateful to ignore or shun other believers?

    See part 4.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 8 months ago
    Hey Rainwalker,

    Thank you for your reply, I understand archangels are high-ranking angels and are called princes and Michael is the only one in the bible who is called an archangel. Like in the military, the word would be given to the general/archangel and his voice is who the angels and us would hear. Michael is at the top ranking as we see in Revelation 12. I do not see an angel name or rank that could be applied to Jesus.

    My understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the announcing of Jesus coming will be the actual voice of the archangel and the last Trump, whether it is Michael, looks like it will be, but I do not know. The question I asked Oseas, he seems to say Michael will come before Jesus, not sure of the meaning of that. I hope this makes sense and thanks for your reply.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Oseas - 8 months ago
    For our conversation is in heaven, you believe? If not, come up here.

    Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. From whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (This is a process, a wor of our Lord JESUS, not a magic)

    Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Ephesians 1:38 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Daniel 12:3 Take a look.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 9 months ago
    Hi Momsage,

    You did not offend me at all, this subject is hard, and feelings go deep, and many will not even discuss it because it has been a foundation of belief for so many years, and as Giannis said there are verses in the bible that can support different understandings. I am not one to say it is because the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I feel if someone says it is not true because the word Trinity is not in the Bible falls short and does not support why they do not believe in the Trinity.

    Same as the rapture, another subject that has been discussed here before. I also do not believe in how it is taught but it is not because the word rapture is not in the Bible. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is caught up from the Greek word harpazo meaning to seize, catch up, snatch away. This can be translated into English as rapture which has the same meaning as harpazo. It is not the word it is what is taught that will happen.

    Thank you and God bless,

    RLW
  • Momsage - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Of course, we can't be like Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. But now, because of Adam's sin, mankind is born with original sin, human nature, the old man, but God removes that human nature, the desire to sin, with sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. That's why God's word commands us to be free of sin and then He made the way through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ for us to be free. His word says that the sin nature must be destroyed (*to put out of existence: kill) /crucified, (*to destroy the power of) so we can live a holy life.

    *Miriam-Webster Dictionary

    1 John 3:4

    "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

    1 Thessalonians 4:1-5

    "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour."
  • Adam - In Reply - 10 months ago
    Hi Richard,

    The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.

    But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.

    Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.

    Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
  • Giannis - In Reply - 11 months ago
    Hello Patricia

    It may bring some comfort to you that your daughter did not suffer for a long time, 2 and a half months later God took her in Heaven.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14,

    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

    You will see your daughter again and this time you will never be separated from her.

    God Bless You and your husband.
  • Chris - In Reply on Revelation 21 - 1 year ago
    Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).

    "The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.

    However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
  • Adam - In Reply - 1 year ago
    >"The soul does not exist without the body."

    He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.

    What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.

    1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.

    1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.

    Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.

    Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?

    Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.

    In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
  • Stewart - 1 year ago
    God Bless You all, prayer request for healing. And prayers for each other that we keep on keeping on. I'll meet you all in the air.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2

    "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

    1 Thessalonians 4:16

    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (7 years in Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-21 Christ returns with His Saints and the Angels)

    Revelation 3:10

    "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

    Matthew 5:12

    "Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    John 14:2

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    Grace and Salvation and the Holy Spirit will remain. The Body of Christ is he who hinders, God said the Holy Spirit will abide with thee forever. Zech 14:16-21 speaks of those that are left, without the mark or and who did not worship the image will serve year to year.

    Isaiah 19:23-25

    23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

    24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

    25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Alex Palace,

    Is Jesus Michael the archangel? I have heard this from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some say the angel of the LORD were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation, but Jesus is not an angel.

    Michael is the only angel specifically called an archangel, Jude 1:9. Michael is the chief prince who stands up for Israel, Daniel 10:13,21 Daniel 12:1. We see that Michael and his angels battle the dragon/Satan and his angels and cast them down to earth out of heaven with no place found for them anymore in heaven for them, Revelation 12:7-8.

    We see in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 that when Jesus returns it will be announced by a shout, by the voice of the archangel, I understand that as Michael.

    Jesus is the Son of God, our Lord who gave his life and shed His blood for us. Jesus's name is above all, Ephesians 1:21 including Michael. At the burning bush, it was the angel of the LORD, it does not say what angel it was.

    Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    My understanding Jesus is not any kind of angel, Michael was probably the angel of the LORD we see in the OT because Michael is the chief prince of Israel and Michael will announce Jesus's second coming.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Jimbob - 1 year ago
    When is the Coming of the Lord in the clouds, the "rapture" in context?

    ( Mt 26:64) .. "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven".

    Jesus said He will be ((coming in the clouds)) in context!

    ( Rev 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh with clouds)); and every eye shall see him"...

    He cometh with clouds in context!

    ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) v15 "the coming of the Lord".

    v16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout"...

    v17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ((in the clouds)), to meet the Lord in the air"...

    We meet the Lord in the clouds in context!

    ( Mt 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation"...

    v30 ".."and they shall see the Son of man ((coming in the clouds)) of heaven with power and great glory".

    v31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds"...

    The Lord ((coming in the clouds)) in context, Is Immediately after the tribulation!

    The return of Jesus riding a white horse in ( Rev 19:11-16) says nothing about coming in the clouds. But v11 does say "he doth judge and make war". So this return is coming (to the earth) not in the clouds. v15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should (smite the nations): and he shall (rule them with a rod of iron): and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". This is not the return in the clouds in context.

    This should be clear to all who seek the Truth, the return on the white horse ( Rev 19:11-16) and the return ((in the clouds)) in ( Mt 24:29-31) are not even close to being the same event!
  • Oseas - 1 year ago
    Romans 8:19-21

    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    The Word is GOD, self-executing. Believest thou this?

    Could not this man -JESUS- which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

    Take ye away the stone. Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of GOD?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him.(GOD is Life)

    15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(According Daniel 12:2-3)

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(the same cloud that was seen by the disciples- Acts 1:9-11), to meet the Lord in the air(in the 3rd heaven that will be established from now on): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(in he 3rd heaven, which will last a thousand years- Revelation 11:15).

    The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely- Revelation 22:17.

    20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
  • Frankie J - 1 year ago
    Friends,

    After reading two threads, which stated that "we could never love like God loves" I felt compel by Holy Spirit to correct this belief, that's unscriptural.

    Paul states 2Cor 5:14

    The love of God that flowed through him, he states in Gal 2:20 it was Christ that dwelling within him, living, moving & having His being within Paul, having His mind, heart & spirit. & where Christ dwells He brings His Father with Him John14:23 & God is love, he became an living expression of the Godhead, there's no way that in this abide abode that God love was not known, felt, displays in his life. Have you ever tried keeping your human love in? What about God ?

    Jesus states in John15:10 "abide in His love"

    We must believe that we can Ephesians 3:19 as we continue to grow in Grace in the knowledge of His will that

    Hebrews 10:10 for faith Gal 5:6

    1 John 1:14 perfect love experienced, is what John the beloved "tasted, seen & handled" 1John 4:12

    1 Thessalonians 4:9 God taught them how to love as He loves

    John 13:14 "as I have love you"

    Folks,

    To my understanding, Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 reveals a union between the Spirit & Soul of our Creator & his creatures that unites us in such an wonderous way, that it took Divinity to imagine it, & the Son accomplish all His Father's heart desire. Matt 17:5

    Jeremiah 32:38-41 Love never fails.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hello Bedbugg

    IN FACT, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is a revealing letter from Paul the Apostle.

    By the way, all GOD's people must remember Acts 1:11 - Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same JESUS, which is taken up from you into HEAVEN(into the 3rd heaven. HEAVEN? Ephesians 1:3 combined with Philippians 3:20-21 among other biblical references. Take a look.), shall so COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen Him go into heaven(3rd heaven, that is the next world- Luke 20:35-36. Take a look). JESUS was on Mount called Olivet in the day when He was taken up, right? and shall COME in like manner( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), and the SAME CLOUD will be there in His return, understand? For better understand, compare with Matt.17:5 and Isaiah 4:5.

    What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand? The Word says: Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan.12:v.12 - Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!! It means: 45 days after the period of 1290 days. Get ready you all, as JESUS WARNED: Matthew 25: 6-13.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Jema and others,

    The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.

    So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.

    2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
  • Jesusgirl87 - In Reply - 1 year ago
    I do believe that Scripture does reveal that the Bride will see "that man of sin" before the Lord meets us in the air and calls up up with a shout...

    1 Thessalonians 4:16

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    2 Thessalonians 2:3

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    Revelation 4:1

    "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
  • Oseas - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi bro Dan

    Greetings in Christ JESUS

    Thank you for your reply.

    See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?

    By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.

    GET READY

    You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?

    GET READY
  • Adam - In Reply on Daniel 12 - 1 year ago
    That's not the only place the Bible says people will sleep to await Jesus's return. Here are more...

    Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
  • Adam - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Hi Brother S Spencer,

    Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.

    The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.

    Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.

    So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

    Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
  • David0921 - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Mr. Landry,

    Based upon what you are saying, what is the current condition of believers such as Abraham, David, Paul, Peter, all those whom Christ has saved and have died. Are they alive in their physical bodies somewhere?

    How do you understand the passages in the scripture that clearly state these believers experienced physical death, and they're physical bodies were buried?

    I do understand the Bible clearly teaches that all of these believers are indeed alive in their Resurrected soul existence, and currently residing in their soul existence with Christ in heaven, awaiting the last day, when they will receive their glorified spiritual bodies at the resurrection of the last day. That I think is very clear from the Bible.

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is becoming Born Again.


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