When we examine verses such as Matthew 16:18 we see how the church would never be extinguished by the forces of darkness.
Again; as my last posting and many others that I have placed on this site in the past I emphasized the believing remnant of the true Christians vs pretenders as being much smaller than the professing church. In that group we once again need to differentiate a smaller group who wish to be godly in Christ Jesus and suffer persecution. ( 2 Timothy 3:12). Thus; we see a differentiation of rewards in heaven and those who wish to be great will seek His face to be given the desire to run the race with endurance as Paul did and find examples of godly individuals to emulate.
Ruling and reigning is something the book of Hebrews discusses of those who are in the "hall of fame" and in the great cloud of witnesses ( Heb. 12:1-2). Therefore we are currently "seated in heavenly places" ( Ephesians 2:6). Therefore the history of the church is something which will be today once tomorrow comes; and it leads to the future when we will rule as "kings and priests" on the earth. ( Rev. 1:6; also see 5:10). For now the church is in training for this future by our pruning by the Spirit and our trials and testings on earth to refine us as gold ( 1 Peter 1:7).
It is a good thing that the church has continued to succeed; especially when ALL seven churches that originated in the area of Turkey today ceased to exist within a few centuries of their inception at least where they were originally as the vast majority of citizens there are Muslim. We can also see that deception comes shortly after revivals as was the case where Paul warned Timothy of what would come in the last days after he departed within their own midst. Much of this these days can be blamed on faulty logic; when we just want to bring in numbers to fill the church there is always compromise on verses such as 2 Cor. 13:5; and John 15:2. We should make disciples.
These are important questions, and you should study for your understanding and conscience. It may take a while but pray and let the Holy Spirit lead you. Do not go to the Scriptures with preconceived ideas, when we do that our eyes and ears are closed to the truth and Holy Spirit.
We know Jesus is the only way John 14:6, Jesus was sent by the Father and He did the will of the Father. God was with/in Jesus Acts 10:38. The works Jesus did were the Father's works, the words Jesus spoke were the Father's, and Jesus was totally obedient to His death, and by that we are made righteous, Romans 5:19.
God's plan was before creation all was in this plan from the beginning to the end and Jesus was the beginning of this plan 1 Peter 1:19-20.
God's love is glorified in this eternal covenant within the Godhead. Out of His internal love withing the Persons of the Godhead, God's amazing love is brought forth in creating all beings in order to bring his love to the elect angels and the elect saints in history. He loves all that He has made, but His love is especially set forth in these two groups of beings, one eternally sinless and the other sinless but saved by grace through the Son, Jesus Christ. I believe that when we all get to heaven and the last judgement has occurred, the saints will all the more realize the perfection of God and His eternal plan in creating the church to be gloried in. Romans 9:21-24. Eph 1:6 shows us that the apex of the glory of God is the glory of His grace in the church. Without the redeemed saints from sin, death, and the devil, the fullness of God's glory cannot be manifested. His glory would be imperfect. So, this is why allowing for sin to emerge in Satan and the angels that followed him and in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Even were able to fall into sin when Satan led them to do so God is ordaining the way for his total glorification which is includes the redeemed saints in Christ Jesus. So, here God is the Victor, now and forever, even in the fall of man and angels.
I don't believe that Satan knew what God's eternal plan and covenant was (which was made before creation within the Godhead only). God did not reveal all of His plan or will to the angels. That is why Scripture says that angels long to look into the salvation of mankind to understand that was preached in the Gospel in 1 Peter 1:12. In the consummation of all things, both the saints and the elect angels will finally be able to understand together the fullness of God's eternal covenant and plan for creation and together we will glorify God all the more with our praise and worship.
Satan truly thought he won out against God. But he is always proved wrong in all of his actions.
You stated "The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things"
I agree that "The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature", but I don't agree that nature entered them when they bit of the fruit. I believe it was already in them to disobey.
This is why Christ was foreordained as of a lamb without blemish and without spot before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also I believe the shame they experienced was CAUSED by their "Knowledge" of Good and Evil. They were shame because they "NOW" knew they were naked.
For instance, what if they would have disobeyed God in any other way?
Would they have known they were naked without the knowledge of Good and Evil and responded with shame and try to cover themselves?
Is scripture conclusive that this was their first act of disobedience?
However, even if it were their first act of disobedience, it still applies.
They were uncovered/ vulnerable, absent from the blood of the Lamb which is to atone for sin.
Notice where the emphasis is placed after the act.
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were NAKED..
Verses 9-10, And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou;
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was NAKED; and I hid myself.
11.) And he said, Who told thee that thou wast NAKED?..
21) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins and clothed them.
22) And the LORD God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
BTW, you stated, "our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome. I'm not sure if you're saying that Christ clothing us covers our conscience or sin?
1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.
John 14:26: But the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Matthew 28:18- 20: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and on earth. (Read More)
John 15:26 But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
1 Corinthians 8:6: But to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwells in me, he doeth the works.
Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and the cattle, and all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
Romans 8:26- 27: Likewise, the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered. (Read More...)
Ephesians 4:6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in you all.
1 Peter 1:2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Isaiah 48:16: Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the begin
RED APPLE TREATY 4 ME ONLY on Jeremiah 20:11 - 4 months ago
Jeremiah 20:11-16, 38:20 KJV
When you feel everything around you seems to be falling apart?
My interpetation:
1 Peter 1:3 KJV
'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, '
"The story of Jeremiah during the fall of Judah is a profound example of faithfulness and divine protection amidst overwhelming adversity." Jeremiah 20:11-16 KJV
Ways we can have God's hand over us and faithfulness is to have a clean heart and thoughts ( Jeremiah 29:11 KJV) keep God's morals when living life. Believe God's word for bread of life and living water.( John 6:35 KJV)
Morals- right from wrong , good from bad.
God has blessed me believing in God's word for bread of life and living water.
John 6:35 KJV
Ways you can stand firm and not conflict for example in Jeremiah 37 KJV. Are Allowing us Christians our hands to see God, work and accomplish for us and succeed. - Mark 10:43-44 KJV. Genesis 39:3,6,23 KJV
Ways you can overcome conflict is by having faith , praying, reading God's word.-holy bible.
Recognizing God's hands at work. Jeremiah 38:20 KJV
In Reference to Jeremiah 38:20 KJV My interpetation: "it shall be well unto thee and thy soul shall live." Because you come from God-" 1 John 4:4-7KJV. Your are God's son- 2 Corinthians 6:18 KJV.
Seeing myself born of God made into his image Genesis 1:27 living as God identification of male/man in this world but not of it has blessed with God and of him and his church to partake of the consolation which provides support and aid.
Support- To sustain, to act,represent well as to support, to support the part assigned.
Those who believed in Jesus Christ origin ( Christians)who had faithEphesians 2:8-9 KJVand the church to both show the truth were the partakers of the consolation.
I would say that God is very fair, for He is a righteous and just God. It is the world that is not fair. It is humanity itself that's not fair.
Ezekiel 18:25, "Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not my way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?"
There were those in the house of Israel who were questioning the fairness of God. God's response was that His ways are completely fair, and that they were the ones who were unfair.
Leviticus 19:15 would show how God values fairness. It says, "Do not pervert justice; do not show favoritism to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."
The very nature of God is that He is fair and just. There are several places in the bible that show how fair God is. Here are just a few places in scripture that show the fairness of God: Matthew 20:16, Romans 2:11, 1 Peter 1:17.
Would you be able to share why you feel God does not put much value on fairness? Also, what is your take on the parable of the talents?
Hello Shantel. I'm unsure whether your post here is in response to me in bro. Ronald's thread or not, but you seem to have referred to my question there.
You state, "Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God." What is Jesus stating in prayer to God His Father? He is asking His Father, that the Glory He shared with Him before the creation of the world, would once again be His possession. Jesus was about to go to the Cross to fully accomplish the Father's Will for Him and mankind. While on Earth, Jesus never failed to glorify His Father: He honored & magnified (Gk. doxa) God's Name to all by His Words, His Works, & His Life.
In these final moments, Jesus prays that as His Work is now finished (v4), that He too would be glorified with the Father in the fulfilment of the work of Redemption. Jesus states that He enjoyed the Glory of the Father in Heaven (which Glory God shares with none other: Isaiah 42:8). Jesus by His Coming had to lay aside that Glory ( Philippians 2:6-8) for embracing humanity & the suffering of death; and now the Work was done, that the Father would now bring Glory to His Son, that both would be glorified together ( John 17:1) in this hour that was planned for from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
Indeed, Jesus Christ "is the GLORY OF GOD" as you wrote, as God's Son He fulfilled His Father's Will completely. But Jesus also laid claim to His Glory which He shared with the Eternal God before His coming to Earth. If Jesus is not fully Divine coming forth from within the Person of God, then Who was He in Heaven sharing in God's Glory (as He claimed)? To Whom else would God share His Glory? Or does Jesus' prayer make Him a liar (even before God), or as one Who is deceived, or just maybe, a direct claim to the Divinity that He enjoyed within the Godhead in eternity. Blessings & thanks for your response.
I need to remind myself more and more often that all the events we see in the world today are just a reflection of what is going on in high places today; with the raging spiritual war in the 2nd heaven. Of course it is only through the 3rd heaven; exercising the authority through the Spirit of the power of Christ above that enables us to actually engage in any combat to resist the legions of evil that are controlling the masses today.
The sad fact is that many professing believers aren't really in the faith at all; and the rest that are only have a small segment that are in this "vertical" aspect in the spiritual realm. In terms of what is proclaimed; therefore in the first example people are calling on endless blessings by making presumptuous proclamations and twisting certain verses to align with their own agendas. In the second case; for all those who have the potential to be in the battle many aren't protected with the proper armor or are not offensively fighting with the sword of the Spirit as Ephesians 12 tells us to do as our only offensive weapon we have.
It is one thing to preach of God's love and forgiveness to God's enemies as Jesus did; selflessly until death. People can over or underemphasize the fact of man's depravity and enmity with God with humans; but with demons and Satan himself we dare not make the mistake of viewing them as anything but enemies; out to steal; kill and destroy both our own lives as individuals through various means such as intimidation; accusation and temptation but also controlling the whole world system (world; flesh and devil).
Here is some practical advice.
1 Corinthians 5:11
James 1:26
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Jude 1:23
2 Timothy 3:13
Ephesians 5:11-12
2 Corinthians 6:17
1 Peter 5:8-9
Proverbs 4:23-27
God is working all things according to His purposes for our good. To be tried we are tested to see what is genuine ( 1 Peter 1:7).
May God grant us the strength to endure until the end.
You say that the Bible "CONTAINS" the Word of God. That is far different than recognizing that the ENTIRE Bible "IS" the Word of God.
And in doing so you are relegating different verses, passages, chapters, or even books of the Bible as having different levels of authority.
The Book of Esther for example does not even mention God. Yet every word and phrase in the Book of Esther is EXACTLY the word and phrase that God Himself chose to be written by the human author. Just as is every word in the Bible that Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Moses wrote. We don't need to get into the mind of the human scribes.
And God says this very clearly in 1 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." And this applies not just to certain parts of the Bible, but to the ENTIRE Bible as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Christ Himself identifies Himself intimately with His Word, the Bible, as we read in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
So there is no argument here. God Himself is the author of every word, every verse, every chapter, every book of the entire Bible, the Word of God. It is not necessary for us to understand how this was done. Just that it was done as God declares.
I would never want to hold that the Bible merely CONTAINS the Word of God. That, in effect, strips the Bible of its authority. When, in fact, every word in the Bible, IS the Word of God Himself. And is the reason that we are commanded to "compare scripture with scripture" throughout the ENTIRE Bible.
Rev 22:18,19 warns us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
1 Peter 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one anothe r with a pure heart fervently:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Hello JBTthe3rd. The word 'Sanctification' is from the Latin, 'sanctificare' (to make holy), and 'sanctus' (holy). We also get the word, 'Saint' from this word. The very real meaning of 'Separation' is also involved in this word, as that which is unholy cannot fuse with that which is holy, but must be set apart from it.
We can look at Sanctification in generally three aspects:
a. a true believer in God, having been saved & redeemed through Jesus' Sacrifice, is said to be 'Positionally Sanctified'. That is, by virtue of now being a child of God, through Jesus His Son, the Christian is Separated & made Holy unto God by this position in Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 1:2).
b. as the believer walks this new separated life, he is also 'Experientially Sanctified'. When we grow in knowledge & experience of our Lord & Savior, we grow to be more like Jesus, hating & avoiding sin and displaying more & more of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit ( Philippians 2:13, Galatians 5:22-25).
c. we can know that we are truly in Christ, separated from the world & its lusts; we can also desire to grow to be more Christ-like in all our ways; but since the pull of the flesh is always at war with our spirit, we long for the day for our 'Future Sanctification', when our earthly struggles will be over and we will be taken into Christ Jesus' Presence (whether in the Rapture or through the veil of death), and we will be entirely perfect (without any stain of sin) & become as He is Holy & Perfect ( 1 John 3:1-3, Ephesians 5:27, Jude 1:24,25).
Thank you David0921 for your response. I would align myself with most of what you've written concerning biblical inspiration, that the Word of God is indeed wholly authored by God. Yet, when I read 2 Timothy 3:16, that "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God", I would be in conflict with some who hold fervently that what we read now (from the ancient recordings, also the KJB) are the actual Words that God (by His Spirit) spoke to godly men to write. "Inspiration" to me, doesn't mean that God dictated the Words to record, nor does it mean that the fingers of the writers were gripped by Him to pen those holy Words. Rather, as men recorded down what they saw or learned, God's Spirit was present to help them record accurately and remember correctly. That said, since you brought it up, I'll move on.
"What do I believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?" When we have Scriptures such as John 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:22-23, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1, & others in John's epistle, we can believe that this re-birth is wholly of God & not of man's doing or involvement; that re-birth is a spiritual birth, whereby God gives us a new spirit (His Spirit) Who always inclines us towards God & His Son; that God's Ministry to us can only be to our revived spirit in us and not to the flesh that has no desire after godly things. Therefore, we are to continue to crucify our flesh which lusts against the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:17) in us & distracts us from serving God acceptably & in fear. Therefore, by the Holy Spirit in us, we have become new creatures in Christ Jesus, reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. This re-birth must be the final Work of God in the sometimes lengthy course in a person's struggle dealing with conviction of sin, brokenness, humility, & cry for a Savior to save & redeem him. (continued on Page 2).
Bro S. Spencer, thanks for your thoughts here. It was bro Giannis who shared 1 Peter 1:23-25, though my reference to Ephesians 5:26 wasn't intended to lend support to the belief that Jesus' Words to Nicodemus meant that 'Unless a man be born by (from) the Word and of (from) the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'. I'm not sure that by telling Nicodemus that a man must be "born of water (really, the Word)" would have given him any satisfaction that his question was answered. To him, Jesus would have still been talking in riddles. Jesus could have stated that 'a man must be born again by hearing & receiving the Word of God and also His Spirit' which seems to make more sense in answering his question. But Jesus' use of being 'born of water', when Nicodemus is given no explanation that actually water represents 'washing by the Word', doesn't seem helpful.
But I agree, that John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism, since water baptism doesn't generate a new birth, rather a declaration of one's identification with Christ's Sacrifice & Resurrection after the new birth, as an act of personal & public witness. Unlike today in Western countries, such a baptism being undertaken in other countries holding to anti-Christian faiths, most likely meant rejection, or incarceration, or even death to the new believer. Blessings.
Thank you again brother for your comments. I would have much trouble equating 1 Peter 1:23-25 ('being born again by the Word of God') with John 3:5 ('one being born of water'): that as you believe, water here represents the Word of God. Maybe, Ephesians 5:26 ('sanctify & cleanse the Church with the washing of water by the Word') might bear some resemblance of the Word to water.
Yet, in both cases, I really can't place such a meaning here, since Jesus was answering the question posed to Him by Nicodemus ('how can a man have a second physical birth?'). And so Jesus answered him, not in some mysterious, confusing way, but clearly, that one's birth onto the Earth can only come in a physical way, but to enter God's Kingdom, man needs to be re-born by God's Spirit & not by human involvement. And of course, Nicodemus did not query this (though he may not have fully understood Jesus' Words), rather went on in verse 9 to ask, "How can these things be?" So, I see that water in John 3:5 equates to the physical/the earthly, & the Spirit to the immaterial/heavenly. And Jesus again confirms this in verse 6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (earthly = water/physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (heavenly = Spirit/spiritual birth)." Anyway, I will keep your understanding in mind, if I can find some support in my further readings.
To the rest of your comment, I do find complete agreement, in respect to infant baptism and God's Foreknowledge of those who will respond to the Gospel. GBU.
Sory but I quoted that passage incorrectly. You are right, it says "Except a man be born again...".
As far as my belief in what "water" stands for in John 3:5, is concerned, it means the Word of God. As I said before it is the seed that is sowed by the Sower in all people's heart. When the soil/heart is a good and soft soil then that seed gets inside it and it sprouts, in other words when a heart is soft then the word of God gets inside it and causes repentance and regeneration, 1 Peter 1:23-25 describes that clearly. So without the word of God nothing can be done. I don't agree at all with a "magical" (sorry for the expression, I know many believe it like this) regeneration. There is no possible way that God regenerates infants that most possibly will become atheists afterwards. The idea of predestination the way some believe it leaves me in complete disagreement. If God chooses whom to select and save, then He would have been a racist and discriminative God. But in 1 Timothy 2:2-4 says clearly, " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth". So if God wants ALL people to be saved why does He choose some for salvation? Because the whole interpetation of that is wrong, in my opinion. God knows who is going to accept Jesus and had His plans for the salvation of all mankind completed before the foundation of the world. So His choice has to do with our decisions made with our free will. It is obvious in the parable of the Sower and the good seed where Gods tries to plant His seed in every heart. But the result is due to our heart.
Lets go back to that conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Jesus said that except one is not born again (or from above, both translations can be right, the latter more possible) then he can not SEE the kingdom of God. Pay attention to that "SEE". It doesn't say ENTER but SEE. For one to "see" which means to have a knowledge, an understanding, realize, about the Kingdom of God. they must be of an age that they understand, isn't it so? Later on Jesus explains that "born from above". He says that except one is born from water and (from) the Spirit he can not enter the kingdom of God. So that "born again" is explained by Jesus as "born from water and from the Spirit". We know who the Spirit is. But water? If Jesus means the water of baptism (for infants) then that contradicts that "see" above. It also contradicts the verses in 1 Peter 1:23-25 where we are told that new birth occurs by the Word of God which was prached to us by the gospel. So according to these at least infant baptism is out of any consideration.
What about children that can have an understaning? I know many cases that little children can sometime in their lives understand that they do sins, eg say a lie, steal a toy, disobey their parents, little things that kids do. They can not understand the fullness of sin as the adults do but they know they do something wrong and want to be forgiven by God. How do they know they do some things wrong? Because they hear the Word of God that is preached to them in church and by their parents back home. So I believe that although they are not in the age of accountability still God regenerates them. I have seen kids that they have changed completely after new birth and have stopped being naughty after regeneration. They pray to God and try to live properly as the Bible says. So I think those are eligible for water baptism.
You stated; "all teachins have both a heavenly & literal meanin..
Ok, Here is what I said,
"We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed.
I don't understand why you feel there is a disagreement so I won't get into that.
You stated; "
biggest problem is the bible has been so altered & butchered no one knows the truth"
Do you believe that what was supposedly excluded from the Bible was all important?
Do you believe what is written must be absolute truth and the truth is vital for our salvation?
Do you believe God's word is important to him?
Do you believe there is any other way to know God outside his Word?
Do you believe God is omniscience?
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
If you answered yes to these last two questions then how can a worm such as humans thwart his all important message to those he loves by contaminating his word?
I think much more of him than that and he expects us to.
That's an insult to who he is!
Isaiah 40:6-8. "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: BUT THE WORD OF OUR GOD SHALL STAND FOR EVER.
1 Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I hold that to be truth.
Did God have to write to Moses and the Prophets?
G has no problem getting out his word, he made Balaam's donkey speak.
There are many churches who are going to detail the last week of Christ's earthly ministry before His death on the cross from Palm Sunday's exaltation and praise to the Passover meal; betrayal and all the sufferings in Gethsemane followed by those leading up to his death in the mock trials involving the Jews and Roman authorities; and finally of course what He endured on the cross.
Following Passover (which happens to be off a month due to a leap year concept) we have the approximate time of the year correct as to when these things take place; of course now removed nearly 2000 years since the event. We naturally want to deviate from all the pagan rituals of Easter (derived from "Ishtar") along with the celebrations of fertility around the equinox and the variants related to eggs; bunnies and consuming ham. It is doubtful today that we are finding some sinister idol worship when it comes to an egg hunt or consuming certain foods but for those whose conscience doesn't allow that; along with those who won't celebrate Christmas which admittedly has become even more perverted everyone should respect the decisions of others whether abstaining or not (unless somehow we are truly involved with some New Age or occult practices).
At any event; my main concept involves realizing the deliverance of the Exodus with Passover and of course how blood on the doorposts is symbolic of our Lord and His atonement for us with the perfect sacrifice as an unblemished lamb ( 1 Peter 1:19).
Remembering that this week is the culmination of the life of our Lord and not isolating the event from all the other perfect acts He did throughout His ministry needs to be taken into consideration along with the fact that He "ever lives to intercede for us now" ( Heb. 7:25). We must remember the sacrificial love He showed in our relations with others. There is no greater love than giving our life for our friends ( John 15:13). That is one day at a time until the end.
Hi Chris: I didn't understand your first question so I can't answer it and I disagree that being sinless now make me revert back to a body like in the Garden of Eden but I don't want to go into that in this discussion.
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
1. Payment of the redemption; illustrated with the "Kinsman-Redeemer" situation between Boaz and Ruth in the book of Ruth. This is the first visible action from the Lord only when one comes to salvation; it was predetermined in the counsel of God before the foundation of the world ( Eph. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).
2. Repentance being granted. This is also mentioned in Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25.
3. Confession by the mouth as a result of believing in the heart ( Romans 10:9-13). This is an action of response to God's saving grace.
There is no other way or method to salvation but by God's prescribed measure of believing on the Son ( Matt. 11:27)
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:471 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
Jeremiah 17:8 along with Psalm 1 bring out the benefits of a tree whose roots are planted near the water. This steadfast faith in the Lord is contrasted in the next verse which describes the vicissitudes of the heart of unregenerate man. These vital concepts describe the state of a soul; who needs to be vigilant to bearing fruit and testing themselves to see if they are in the faith is a necessary prerequisite ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned; a figurative statement describing a very real state of the lost at Judgment Day (see John 15:2).
Surely all flesh is as grass ( 1 Peter 1:24) and like a vapor this life soon passes away ( James 4:14). Eternity is in men's hearts showing that indeed the nature of man is for their spirit to live forever after the body and soul perish ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This means their legacy is either eternal glory and recognition of those things done while living for the Lord; or eternal damnation for the lack thereof. (see Matthew 25:34 and associated verses).
There is some hope for us who still are producing works of wood; hay and stubble ( 2 Tim. 2:21-23) to change to better works if we have a foundation in Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:11). This results in varying degrees or levels in the harvest and subsequent reward for those who are saved (see also Mark 4:20).
Those in the flesh and not Born Again can only interpret what they see around them in the world (the actions of others who serve as their peers and interpreted through their own understanding). God alone as I see it through predestination determines who will be saved. On our end it takes a fair evaluation of who we really are as compared to a righteous God which then leads to godly sorrow and repentance (which is indeed a gift from God as about half a dozen scriptures indicate). John 16:8 must enlighten us to our desperate plight that SHOULD be aided by proper evangelism appealing for individuals to repent.
And yes, I agree with you Momsage, that there is no clear indication about this in the Bible. However, since there is evidence of angelic observance of matters on Earth (as I shared earlier: Matthew 18:10 & 1 Peter 1:10-12) as well as Revelation 6:9,10 (the martyrs plea to God against those thirsty for their blood on Earth), one can see why this belief of a general observance from Heaven's 'residents' can be easily accepted. So for me, as much as I don't subscribe to it, I can understand why some do. And if such a belief doesn't lead to any sin of idolatry, diminishing of God's Holiness & Authority, or elevation of the heavenly ones to a place of refuge for us, then it is a belief that they will have to come to terms with in the Light of the Scriptures.
When we examine verses such as Matthew 16:18 we see how the church would never be extinguished by the forces of darkness.
Again; as my last posting and many others that I have placed on this site in the past I emphasized the believing remnant of the true Christians vs pretenders as being much smaller than the professing church. In that group we once again need to differentiate a smaller group who wish to be godly in Christ Jesus and suffer persecution. ( 2 Timothy 3:12). Thus; we see a differentiation of rewards in heaven and those who wish to be great will seek His face to be given the desire to run the race with endurance as Paul did and find examples of godly individuals to emulate.
Ruling and reigning is something the book of Hebrews discusses of those who are in the "hall of fame" and in the great cloud of witnesses ( Heb. 12:1-2). Therefore we are currently "seated in heavenly places" ( Ephesians 2:6). Therefore the history of the church is something which will be today once tomorrow comes; and it leads to the future when we will rule as "kings and priests" on the earth. ( Rev. 1:6; also see 5:10). For now the church is in training for this future by our pruning by the Spirit and our trials and testings on earth to refine us as gold ( 1 Peter 1:7).
It is a good thing that the church has continued to succeed; especially when ALL seven churches that originated in the area of Turkey today ceased to exist within a few centuries of their inception at least where they were originally as the vast majority of citizens there are Muslim. We can also see that deception comes shortly after revivals as was the case where Paul warned Timothy of what would come in the last days after he departed within their own midst. Much of this these days can be blamed on faulty logic; when we just want to bring in numbers to fill the church there is always compromise on verses such as 2 Cor. 13:5; and John 15:2. We should make disciples.
These are important questions, and you should study for your understanding and conscience. It may take a while but pray and let the Holy Spirit lead you. Do not go to the Scriptures with preconceived ideas, when we do that our eyes and ears are closed to the truth and Holy Spirit.
We know Jesus is the only way John 14:6, Jesus was sent by the Father and He did the will of the Father. God was with/in Jesus Acts 10:38. The works Jesus did were the Father's works, the words Jesus spoke were the Father's, and Jesus was totally obedient to His death, and by that we are made righteous, Romans 5:19.
God's plan was before creation all was in this plan from the beginning to the end and Jesus was the beginning of this plan 1 Peter 1:19-20.
God bless you,
RLW
Pt. 3
God's love is glorified in this eternal covenant within the Godhead. Out of His internal love withing the Persons of the Godhead, God's amazing love is brought forth in creating all beings in order to bring his love to the elect angels and the elect saints in history. He loves all that He has made, but His love is especially set forth in these two groups of beings, one eternally sinless and the other sinless but saved by grace through the Son, Jesus Christ. I believe that when we all get to heaven and the last judgement has occurred, the saints will all the more realize the perfection of God and His eternal plan in creating the church to be gloried in. Romans 9:21-24. Eph 1:6 shows us that the apex of the glory of God is the glory of His grace in the church. Without the redeemed saints from sin, death, and the devil, the fullness of God's glory cannot be manifested. His glory would be imperfect. So, this is why allowing for sin to emerge in Satan and the angels that followed him and in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Even were able to fall into sin when Satan led them to do so God is ordaining the way for his total glorification which is includes the redeemed saints in Christ Jesus. So, here God is the Victor, now and forever, even in the fall of man and angels.
I don't believe that Satan knew what God's eternal plan and covenant was (which was made before creation within the Godhead only). God did not reveal all of His plan or will to the angels. That is why Scripture says that angels long to look into the salvation of mankind to understand that was preached in the Gospel in 1 Peter 1:12. In the consummation of all things, both the saints and the elect angels will finally be able to understand together the fullness of God's eternal covenant and plan for creation and together we will glorify God all the more with our praise and worship.
Satan truly thought he won out against God. But he is always proved wrong in all of his actions.
Thanks for responding!
You stated "The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things"
I agree that "The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature", but I don't agree that nature entered them when they bit of the fruit. I believe it was already in them to disobey.
This is why Christ was foreordained as of a lamb without blemish and without spot before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also I believe the shame they experienced was CAUSED by their "Knowledge" of Good and Evil. They were shame because they "NOW" knew they were naked.
For instance, what if they would have disobeyed God in any other way?
Would they have known they were naked without the knowledge of Good and Evil and responded with shame and try to cover themselves?
Is scripture conclusive that this was their first act of disobedience?
However, even if it were their first act of disobedience, it still applies.
They were uncovered/ vulnerable, absent from the blood of the Lamb which is to atone for sin.
Notice where the emphasis is placed after the act.
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were NAKED..
Verses 9-10, And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou;
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was NAKED; and I hid myself.
11.) And he said, Who told thee that thou wast NAKED?..
21) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins and clothed them.
22) And the LORD God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
BTW, you stated, "our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome. I'm not sure if you're saying that Christ clothing us covers our conscience or sin?
GB.
1 John 5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.
John 14:26: But the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Matthew 28:18- 20: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and on earth. (Read More)
John 15:26 But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
1 Corinthians 8:6: But to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwells in me, he doeth the works.
Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and the cattle, and all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
Romans 8:26- 27: Likewise, the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be uttered. (Read More...)
Ephesians 4:6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in you all.
1 Peter 1:2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Isaiah 48:16: Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the begin
When you feel everything around you seems to be falling apart?
My interpetation:
1 Peter 1:3 KJV
'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, '
"The story of Jeremiah during the fall of Judah is a profound example of faithfulness and divine protection amidst overwhelming adversity." Jeremiah 20:11-16 KJV
Ways we can have God's hand over us and faithfulness is to have a clean heart and thoughts ( Jeremiah 29:11 KJV) keep God's morals when living life. Believe God's word for bread of life and living water.( John 6:35 KJV)
Morals- right from wrong , good from bad.
God has blessed me believing in God's word for bread of life and living water.
John 6:35 KJV
Ways you can stand firm and not conflict for example in Jeremiah 37 KJV. Are Allowing us Christians our hands to see God, work and accomplish for us and succeed. - Mark 10:43-44 KJV. Genesis 39:3,6,23 KJV
Ways you can overcome conflict is by having faith , praying, reading God's word.-holy bible.
Recognizing God's hands at work. Jeremiah 38:20 KJV
In Reference to Jeremiah 38:20 KJV My interpetation: "it shall be well unto thee and thy soul shall live." Because you come from God-" 1 John 4:4-7KJV. Your are God's son- 2 Corinthians 6:18 KJV.
Seeing myself born of God made into his image Genesis 1:27 living as God identification of male/man in this world but not of it has blessed with God and of him and his church to partake of the consolation which provides support and aid.
Support- To sustain, to act,represent well as to support, to support the part assigned.
Those who believed in Jesus Christ origin ( Christians)who had faithEphesians 2:8-9 KJVand the church to both show the truth were the partakers of the consolation.
- Refrence example in 2 Corinthians 1:3-7 KJV
Published&Interpetation by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
I would say that God is very fair, for He is a righteous and just God. It is the world that is not fair. It is humanity itself that's not fair.
Ezekiel 18:25, "Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not fair." Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not my way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?"
There were those in the house of Israel who were questioning the fairness of God. God's response was that His ways are completely fair, and that they were the ones who were unfair.
Leviticus 19:15 would show how God values fairness. It says, "Do not pervert justice; do not show favoritism to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."
The very nature of God is that He is fair and just. There are several places in the bible that show how fair God is. Here are just a few places in scripture that show the fairness of God: Matthew 20:16, Romans 2:11, 1 Peter 1:17.
Would you be able to share why you feel God does not put much value on fairness? Also, what is your take on the parable of the talents?
Blessings!
You state, "Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God." What is Jesus stating in prayer to God His Father? He is asking His Father, that the Glory He shared with Him before the creation of the world, would once again be His possession. Jesus was about to go to the Cross to fully accomplish the Father's Will for Him and mankind. While on Earth, Jesus never failed to glorify His Father: He honored & magnified (Gk. doxa) God's Name to all by His Words, His Works, & His Life.
In these final moments, Jesus prays that as His Work is now finished (v4), that He too would be glorified with the Father in the fulfilment of the work of Redemption. Jesus states that He enjoyed the Glory of the Father in Heaven (which Glory God shares with none other: Isaiah 42:8). Jesus by His Coming had to lay aside that Glory ( Philippians 2:6-8) for embracing humanity & the suffering of death; and now the Work was done, that the Father would now bring Glory to His Son, that both would be glorified together ( John 17:1) in this hour that was planned for from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
Indeed, Jesus Christ "is the GLORY OF GOD" as you wrote, as God's Son He fulfilled His Father's Will completely. But Jesus also laid claim to His Glory which He shared with the Eternal God before His coming to Earth. If Jesus is not fully Divine coming forth from within the Person of God, then Who was He in Heaven sharing in God's Glory (as He claimed)? To Whom else would God share His Glory? Or does Jesus' prayer make Him a liar (even before God), or as one Who is deceived, or just maybe, a direct claim to the Divinity that He enjoyed within the Godhead in eternity. Blessings & thanks for your response.
I need to remind myself more and more often that all the events we see in the world today are just a reflection of what is going on in high places today; with the raging spiritual war in the 2nd heaven. Of course it is only through the 3rd heaven; exercising the authority through the Spirit of the power of Christ above that enables us to actually engage in any combat to resist the legions of evil that are controlling the masses today.
The sad fact is that many professing believers aren't really in the faith at all; and the rest that are only have a small segment that are in this "vertical" aspect in the spiritual realm. In terms of what is proclaimed; therefore in the first example people are calling on endless blessings by making presumptuous proclamations and twisting certain verses to align with their own agendas. In the second case; for all those who have the potential to be in the battle many aren't protected with the proper armor or are not offensively fighting with the sword of the Spirit as Ephesians 12 tells us to do as our only offensive weapon we have.
It is one thing to preach of God's love and forgiveness to God's enemies as Jesus did; selflessly until death. People can over or underemphasize the fact of man's depravity and enmity with God with humans; but with demons and Satan himself we dare not make the mistake of viewing them as anything but enemies; out to steal; kill and destroy both our own lives as individuals through various means such as intimidation; accusation and temptation but also controlling the whole world system (world; flesh and devil).
Here is some practical advice.
1 Corinthians 5:11
James 1:26
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Jude 1:23
2 Timothy 3:13
Ephesians 5:11-12
2 Corinthians 6:17
1 Peter 5:8-9
Proverbs 4:23-27
God is working all things according to His purposes for our good. To be tried we are tested to see what is genuine ( 1 Peter 1:7).
May God grant us the strength to endure until the end.
You say that the Bible "CONTAINS" the Word of God. That is far different than recognizing that the ENTIRE Bible "IS" the Word of God.
And in doing so you are relegating different verses, passages, chapters, or even books of the Bible as having different levels of authority.
The Book of Esther for example does not even mention God. Yet every word and phrase in the Book of Esther is EXACTLY the word and phrase that God Himself chose to be written by the human author. Just as is every word in the Bible that Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Moses wrote. We don't need to get into the mind of the human scribes.
And God says this very clearly in 1 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." And this applies not just to certain parts of the Bible, but to the ENTIRE Bible as we read in 2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Christ Himself identifies Himself intimately with His Word, the Bible, as we read in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
So there is no argument here. God Himself is the author of every word, every verse, every chapter, every book of the entire Bible, the Word of God. It is not necessary for us to understand how this was done. Just that it was done as God declares.
I would never want to hold that the Bible merely CONTAINS the Word of God. That, in effect, strips the Bible of its authority. When, in fact, every word in the Bible, IS the Word of God Himself. And is the reason that we are commanded to "compare scripture with scripture" throughout the ENTIRE Bible.
Rev 22:18,19 warns us:
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
1 Peter 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one anothe r with a pure heart fervently:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
We can look at Sanctification in generally three aspects:
a. a true believer in God, having been saved & redeemed through Jesus' Sacrifice, is said to be 'Positionally Sanctified'. That is, by virtue of now being a child of God, through Jesus His Son, the Christian is Separated & made Holy unto God by this position in Christ ( 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 1:2).
b. as the believer walks this new separated life, he is also 'Experientially Sanctified'. When we grow in knowledge & experience of our Lord & Savior, we grow to be more like Jesus, hating & avoiding sin and displaying more & more of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit ( Philippians 2:13, Galatians 5:22-25).
c. we can know that we are truly in Christ, separated from the world & its lusts; we can also desire to grow to be more Christ-like in all our ways; but since the pull of the flesh is always at war with our spirit, we long for the day for our 'Future Sanctification', when our earthly struggles will be over and we will be taken into Christ Jesus' Presence (whether in the Rapture or through the veil of death), and we will be entirely perfect (without any stain of sin) & become as He is Holy & Perfect ( 1 John 3:1-3, Ephesians 5:27, Jude 1:24,25).
Thank you David0921 for your response. I would align myself with most of what you've written concerning biblical inspiration, that the Word of God is indeed wholly authored by God. Yet, when I read 2 Timothy 3:16, that "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God", I would be in conflict with some who hold fervently that what we read now (from the ancient recordings, also the KJB) are the actual Words that God (by His Spirit) spoke to godly men to write. "Inspiration" to me, doesn't mean that God dictated the Words to record, nor does it mean that the fingers of the writers were gripped by Him to pen those holy Words. Rather, as men recorded down what they saw or learned, God's Spirit was present to help them record accurately and remember correctly. That said, since you brought it up, I'll move on.
"What do I believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?" When we have Scriptures such as John 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:22-23, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1, & others in John's epistle, we can believe that this re-birth is wholly of God & not of man's doing or involvement; that re-birth is a spiritual birth, whereby God gives us a new spirit (His Spirit) Who always inclines us towards God & His Son; that God's Ministry to us can only be to our revived spirit in us and not to the flesh that has no desire after godly things. Therefore, we are to continue to crucify our flesh which lusts against the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:17) in us & distracts us from serving God acceptably & in fear. Therefore, by the Holy Spirit in us, we have become new creatures in Christ Jesus, reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. This re-birth must be the final Work of God in the sometimes lengthy course in a person's struggle dealing with conviction of sin, brokenness, humility, & cry for a Savior to save & redeem him. (continued on Page 2).
But I agree, that John 3:5 has nothing to do with water baptism, since water baptism doesn't generate a new birth, rather a declaration of one's identification with Christ's Sacrifice & Resurrection after the new birth, as an act of personal & public witness. Unlike today in Western countries, such a baptism being undertaken in other countries holding to anti-Christian faiths, most likely meant rejection, or incarceration, or even death to the new believer. Blessings.
I have heard and studied both views on John 3:5 with the water mentioned being either the word of God or the physical birth.
Your in good company either way it goes.
I lean over to the water mentioned in John 3:5 is the word of God because of the verses you both sited
1 Peter 1:23-25.
Ephesians 5:26.
However, I don't see how it relates to water baptism.
I don't believe water baptism represents a washing.
I believe it testifies in one's belief in the death of Christ and the resurrection.
I believe the washing by the word has to be taken place prior to water baptism.
John 15:3.
God bless.
Yet, in both cases, I really can't place such a meaning here, since Jesus was answering the question posed to Him by Nicodemus ('how can a man have a second physical birth?'). And so Jesus answered him, not in some mysterious, confusing way, but clearly, that one's birth onto the Earth can only come in a physical way, but to enter God's Kingdom, man needs to be re-born by God's Spirit & not by human involvement. And of course, Nicodemus did not query this (though he may not have fully understood Jesus' Words), rather went on in verse 9 to ask, "How can these things be?" So, I see that water in John 3:5 equates to the physical/the earthly, & the Spirit to the immaterial/heavenly. And Jesus again confirms this in verse 6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (earthly = water/physical birth); and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (heavenly = Spirit/spiritual birth)." Anyway, I will keep your understanding in mind, if I can find some support in my further readings.
To the rest of your comment, I do find complete agreement, in respect to infant baptism and God's Foreknowledge of those who will respond to the Gospel. GBU.
Sory but I quoted that passage incorrectly. You are right, it says "Except a man be born again...".
As far as my belief in what "water" stands for in John 3:5, is concerned, it means the Word of God. As I said before it is the seed that is sowed by the Sower in all people's heart. When the soil/heart is a good and soft soil then that seed gets inside it and it sprouts, in other words when a heart is soft then the word of God gets inside it and causes repentance and regeneration, 1 Peter 1:23-25 describes that clearly. So without the word of God nothing can be done. I don't agree at all with a "magical" (sorry for the expression, I know many believe it like this) regeneration. There is no possible way that God regenerates infants that most possibly will become atheists afterwards. The idea of predestination the way some believe it leaves me in complete disagreement. If God chooses whom to select and save, then He would have been a racist and discriminative God. But in 1 Timothy 2:2-4 says clearly, " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth". So if God wants ALL people to be saved why does He choose some for salvation? Because the whole interpetation of that is wrong, in my opinion. God knows who is going to accept Jesus and had His plans for the salvation of all mankind completed before the foundation of the world. So His choice has to do with our decisions made with our free will. It is obvious in the parable of the Sower and the good seed where Gods tries to plant His seed in every heart. But the result is due to our heart.
See pt 2
May I add a few things on baptism?
Lets go back to that conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Jesus said that except one is not born again (or from above, both translations can be right, the latter more possible) then he can not SEE the kingdom of God. Pay attention to that "SEE". It doesn't say ENTER but SEE. For one to "see" which means to have a knowledge, an understanding, realize, about the Kingdom of God. they must be of an age that they understand, isn't it so? Later on Jesus explains that "born from above". He says that except one is born from water and (from) the Spirit he can not enter the kingdom of God. So that "born again" is explained by Jesus as "born from water and from the Spirit". We know who the Spirit is. But water? If Jesus means the water of baptism (for infants) then that contradicts that "see" above. It also contradicts the verses in 1 Peter 1:23-25 where we are told that new birth occurs by the Word of God which was prached to us by the gospel. So according to these at least infant baptism is out of any consideration.
What about children that can have an understaning? I know many cases that little children can sometime in their lives understand that they do sins, eg say a lie, steal a toy, disobey their parents, little things that kids do. They can not understand the fullness of sin as the adults do but they know they do something wrong and want to be forgiven by God. How do they know they do some things wrong? Because they hear the Word of God that is preached to them in church and by their parents back home. So I believe that although they are not in the age of accountability still God regenerates them. I have seen kids that they have changed completely after new birth and have stopped being naughty after regeneration. They pray to God and try to live properly as the Bible says. So I think those are eligible for water baptism.
You stated; "all teachins have both a heavenly & literal meanin..
Ok, Here is what I said,
"We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed.
I don't understand why you feel there is a disagreement so I won't get into that.
You stated; "
biggest problem is the bible has been so altered & butchered no one knows the truth"
Do you believe that what was supposedly excluded from the Bible was all important?
Do you believe what is written must be absolute truth and the truth is vital for our salvation?
Do you believe God's word is important to him?
Do you believe there is any other way to know God outside his Word?
Do you believe God is omniscience?
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
If you answered yes to these last two questions then how can a worm such as humans thwart his all important message to those he loves by contaminating his word?
I think much more of him than that and he expects us to.
That's an insult to who he is!
Isaiah 40:6-8. "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: BUT THE WORD OF OUR GOD SHALL STAND FOR EVER.
1 Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I hold that to be truth.
Did God have to write to Moses and the Prophets?
G has no problem getting out his word, he made Balaam's donkey speak.
He can make a rock sing out.
God bless.
There are many churches who are going to detail the last week of Christ's earthly ministry before His death on the cross from Palm Sunday's exaltation and praise to the Passover meal; betrayal and all the sufferings in Gethsemane followed by those leading up to his death in the mock trials involving the Jews and Roman authorities; and finally of course what He endured on the cross.
Following Passover (which happens to be off a month due to a leap year concept) we have the approximate time of the year correct as to when these things take place; of course now removed nearly 2000 years since the event. We naturally want to deviate from all the pagan rituals of Easter (derived from "Ishtar") along with the celebrations of fertility around the equinox and the variants related to eggs; bunnies and consuming ham. It is doubtful today that we are finding some sinister idol worship when it comes to an egg hunt or consuming certain foods but for those whose conscience doesn't allow that; along with those who won't celebrate Christmas which admittedly has become even more perverted everyone should respect the decisions of others whether abstaining or not (unless somehow we are truly involved with some New Age or occult practices).
At any event; my main concept involves realizing the deliverance of the Exodus with Passover and of course how blood on the doorposts is symbolic of our Lord and His atonement for us with the perfect sacrifice as an unblemished lamb ( 1 Peter 1:19).
Remembering that this week is the culmination of the life of our Lord and not isolating the event from all the other perfect acts He did throughout His ministry needs to be taken into consideration along with the fact that He "ever lives to intercede for us now" ( Heb. 7:25). We must remember the sacrificial love He showed in our relations with others. There is no greater love than giving our life for our friends ( John 15:13). That is one day at a time until the end.
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
1. Payment of the redemption; illustrated with the "Kinsman-Redeemer" situation between Boaz and Ruth in the book of Ruth. This is the first visible action from the Lord only when one comes to salvation; it was predetermined in the counsel of God before the foundation of the world ( Eph. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).
2. Repentance being granted. This is also mentioned in Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25.
3. Confession by the mouth as a result of believing in the heart ( Romans 10:9-13). This is an action of response to God's saving grace.
There is no other way or method to salvation but by God's prescribed measure of believing on the Son ( Matt. 11:27)
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:47 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
See Hebrews 9:7-14.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
Jeremiah 17:8 along with Psalm 1 bring out the benefits of a tree whose roots are planted near the water. This steadfast faith in the Lord is contrasted in the next verse which describes the vicissitudes of the heart of unregenerate man. These vital concepts describe the state of a soul; who needs to be vigilant to bearing fruit and testing themselves to see if they are in the faith is a necessary prerequisite ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned; a figurative statement describing a very real state of the lost at Judgment Day (see John 15:2).
Surely all flesh is as grass ( 1 Peter 1:24) and like a vapor this life soon passes away ( James 4:14). Eternity is in men's hearts showing that indeed the nature of man is for their spirit to live forever after the body and soul perish ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This means their legacy is either eternal glory and recognition of those things done while living for the Lord; or eternal damnation for the lack thereof. (see Matthew 25:34 and associated verses).
There is some hope for us who still are producing works of wood; hay and stubble ( 2 Tim. 2:21-23) to change to better works if we have a foundation in Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:11). This results in varying degrees or levels in the harvest and subsequent reward for those who are saved (see also Mark 4:20).
Those in the flesh and not Born Again can only interpret what they see around them in the world (the actions of others who serve as their peers and interpreted through their own understanding). God alone as I see it through predestination determines who will be saved. On our end it takes a fair evaluation of who we really are as compared to a righteous God which then leads to godly sorrow and repentance (which is indeed a gift from God as about half a dozen scriptures indicate). John 16:8 must enlighten us to our desperate plight that SHOULD be aided by proper evangelism appealing for individuals to repent.