I can finally get back to posting Scriptures you can review concerning aspects of ho God is unique. Our remodel is getting done day by day, but it does take up our time along with caring for little Rosie to give mom Vivian breaks throughout the day.
I would like to begin with Sef-Existence, as God is unique in this manner:
Exodus 3:14- God tells Moses that He is 'I Am Who I Am' (Inn Hebrew a word derived from 'to be" This self-existence in part of God's 'aseity' (a theological term you can look up to understand it better)
In John 5:26, Jesus says that the Father and He, Himself, have self-existence. They both have this Divine aseity.
For Simplicity, this is a doctrine implied from Scripture as a whole when considering all of what God has said concerning Himself.
This doctrine says that God is not 'made up' of differing parts, components, attributes, class of deity, or anything else that we as humans have a variety of both physical and spiritual parts that God designed in us to make us a whole human being.
If God was made of matter or any physical component, He would not be divine, but a creature who was designed by whomever/whatever put these parts together in him to make Him complete. Therefore, He does not have a body, blood, flesh as creatures have. God is also not composed of spiritual parts such as attributes, eternality, life, etc. because if these parts are necessary for God to be Divine, then either someone/something else created the parts and put them together to make God divine OR before God was He collected or created all these aspects of His Being and appropriated them to become God, which is an impossibility (nonexistence cannot make anything exist, but God who exists can make things from exnihilo (non-existence to existent components). The other explanations err too, in that if God needed components outside of Himself to be divine, then these parts or the one who created them would be God alongside or even be higher than God.
Hi Jesse: You commented that " I would be wondering why your KJB 1611 is worded differently than every other KJB 1611." It isn't like that, If you recall I said "This forum, mine and my son's Thomas Nelson KJB study bibles, another KJB website;" KJV Audio Bible + Gospel Films" all have the name of Jesus in caps." This isn't just my KJB 1611 reading on this forum. I'll list them below with more information I have.
Hardcovers
Two copies of the Thomas Nelson KJV study bible.
A plain KJB.
Online
This forum
King James Bible with audio
You Version
Bible King James Version
All of these read with JESUS all in caps with "name all in lower case letters.
BibleGateway does have Jesus with just the "J" in caps.
at his resurrection, or ascension, or glorification?
11) Do you believe that the Christ is divine?
12) Do you believe that Jesus is to be worshipped? Do you worship Him?
Ronald, I do appreciate your responses. I truly want to understand your system of beliefs more so that I can better respond to your thoughts when you post here. I love and respect you and love the way you are so thoughtful in your responses. I find this helpful. We are speaking here of beliefs that form the foundation of our belief and biblical understanding of who Jesus is and also who God is. These two aspects of our Christian faith are perhaps the most important ones and they affect every other belief in our professed faith as a Christian. These beliefs about Jesus and God affect how we believe about salvation, Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and glorification along with his power and authority and right to rule over heaven and earth.
Bless you for your care for me. I am grateful for that. Those who I have met on this forum and befriended are treasures to me. I can't wait to meet everyone when Jesus returns and we are all changed and glorified!
I appreciate the way you have spoken about hour beliefs about Jesus. I know we have discussed these matters before and I am not here to refute you, rather to understand your beliefs better. So, again, considered how you responded to the prior questions, I have a few more questions I would like you to explain from your viewpoint about Jesus. I do this lovingly and prayerfully and hope that God will help us in our understanding of each others' perspectives. This understanding will help us to be more knowledgeable about what core beliefs we have in our foundational doctrines concerning what the Bible teaches. I hope and pray that God will help you to explain your answers to these questions clearly and in a format that we all can really gain. Please bear with me if I have asked some of these questions before.
1) Do you believe that Son of God is God?
2) Do you believe that the Son of God is eternal in his existence, as the Father is?
3) If not, how did Son of God come into existence?
4) Do you believe that the Son of God and Jesus are the same person?
5) Do if not, do you believe that Jesus was conceived as only a human person?
6) Do you believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ?
7) If you answer yes to questions 5 and 6, when did He become the Christ?
8) Do you believe that Jesus, being only human, and the Christ are two entities?
9) Do you believe that Jesus was God embodied in human form (Emannuel)?
10) If Jesus had the Spirit in full measure, is this because He is united in the one God with the Father, and Spirit or do you believe that Jesus was indwelt with the Spirit in the same way as believers only was filled to the fullest measure a human person can be filled?
11) Do you believe that Jesus was only a human person and not God the Son in human nature?
12) If you believe that Jesus was only a human person, do you also believe that He was "adopted" as the Son of God? If so, was it at his conception. baptism, death,
God demands a sacrifice from Abraham and he does as exactly as he was asked. "And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away."(Ge.15:11) That was a supper for Great God from whom all the families in earth shall be blessed.(Ge.12:3). He was after 'our likeness' and a double for the Son.
Because of sin of one man animal sacrifice was instituted by commandment,- the Law of Moses was the shadow of good things to come. God did not spare His own Son and in his perfect sacrifice all the sacrifices required of the nation of Israel requires payment. Sin of man required the creation to expect as St Paul says, " For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God./For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,/Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."/For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."(Ro.8:19-22) Now we shall consider how God allows them to be compensated. The Supper for the Great God makes 'all the fowls' partakers of their blessing.
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;/That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."(Re.19:17-18)
"And all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(v.21)"
Thanks for elaborating and clarifying your view about Jesus more in this post.
My understanding of what you presented here and in other posts is that you believe:
1) Jesus did not exist before His conception in Mary.
2) He was only a human person
3) Jesus was able to speak the words of God, live sinlessly, perform miracles only due to the indwelling of the Spirit of God in His human person.
4) Jesus is not God
5)Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) promised in the OT
6) Jesus died solely as a human person.
7) His death saves sinners from condemnation.
8) If He did not have the Spirit in all fullness he would have only been a mortal human person.
I may be wrong on sone of these points, as you did say that Jesus was God in the flesh I think. Please go through these points and let me know how you believe on each of these points so that I can more clearly understand your foundational beliefs about Jesus. Knowing these things about you will be helpful to me when I read your posts to know what perspective you are representing in your comments. I only am asking this in love for you and after praying on whether to enter this conversation with you, Chris, or Ronald as well as whether I should ask you about the points I put forth here.
The Supper is how the Spirit describes the blessing that shall be conferred on whosoever called in his Son. Jesus refers it to the knock on the door and "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Re.3:20). Jesus also referred it to a supper on a grand scale where "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."(Luke13:38). The outer darkness to which they are thrown into is not our present concern but all those that are invited. (Matt.8:12)
In the everlasting covenant God entrusts the man with the charge: "And have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." ( Ge. 1:28). They are represented in heaven as memorial and the four beasts as such cover blessings of the covenant with Man as theirs as well. In short, man's stewardship is as solemn as Jesus in his prayer tells his Father,"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition."( John 17:12,17). He also prays, "Sanctify them, Thy word is truth." The word is sound as well as sign. The slain Lamb before the worlds began is a sign. For this reason every animal sacrifice is in commemoration of the last Adam. So God commands Moses, "Your lamb shall be without blemish."(Ex.12:5)
God demands a sacrifice from Abraham and he does as exactly as he was asked. "And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away."(Ge.15:11) That was a supper for Great God from whom all the families in earth shall be blessed. He was after our likeness'
Because of sin of one man animal sacrifice was instituted by commandment as He did not spare His own So..
"And all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(v.21)
Thank you for those excerpts from the church leaders. It is quite apparent that the doctrine of the deity of Jesus was a part of the faith passed down from the apostles. And
Thanks, brother, I sometimes do not explain my understanding in the best way, hey I'm old. Years ago, I studied some of the early church histories and I found some scholars have questions about the authenticity of their translations. I understand you believe in them and that is ok.
Just one thing on Ignatius CHAPTER XVIII it should read.
For our God, Jesus Christ was according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.
In John 1:10 by Him, the Greek word used is dia means through, on account of, and because of. The word made is the Greek word ginomai means to come into being, to happen, to become.
In Colossians 1:16-17 the Greek word en can mean in him, not by him, whether that changes anything or not.
I know we do not agree on this, but I will do my best to show how I see John 17:5. Like I have said before Jesus was the first thing in God's plan, everything was created in and through Jesus and what He would be. Jesus knew the glory of God's word from which came all things as we see in Genesis, God said, and it was.
When Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and filled with the Spirit without measure, he could see spiritual things unknown to any man. Some of God's servants did see into the future with just a glimpse, like Abraham, David, Moses, and others. Jesus could see and He knew the glory of God's creation and salvation plan.
Jesus knew who He was and was seeking this glory that was in God's plan before the world was to be his reward after all that he was sent to do was finished. In scripture declaring what is, even though it is not yet, simply because it is intended to be. If God intends it, it already is, even though it is not yet. Being from heaven is an expression meant to emphasize his sinless and holy state and show who sent him was God.
How do we pray? I am sure that I'm not alone here in stating how overwhelmed I feel and how little I feel I have for energy to contemplate the scenarios to pray about and against that are pressing up against us and certain to occur in the not too distant future. In some ways I don't know much difference between every day spiritual battles and the visible events that challenge us that affect our physical survival.
There's no point pretending that fear isn't ever present. Faith of course involves God's love; and when perfect it casts out fear.
Having likeminded individuals to pray with certainly is vital; and in today's world most of us find few if any of that mindset.
This site is certainly helpful in that regard. Ultimately the fear of death we know through His strength is overcome; but it is always up against us. It isn't wrong for us to have those feelings of doubt and self preservation but He lives in us and directs our steps.
Knowing that the end will come with all the baggage mentioned in Revelation; we can only pray that the restrainer holds things back as much as He can and that we aren't allowing things to commence prematurely as surely the enemy would like to do as much as possible. I've got to run here but thought again any suggestions would be good; surely we must pray on these big events as some things can still be temporarily thwarted. Let us focus on the Great Commission and sure victory to come and as much as possible through His strength keep away from sin.
The most commonly marketed method for having something of value in an anticipated financial meltdown that may or may not be immediately tied in with a war or other disaster is to invest in gold and other precious metals. I have pointed out that there are some scriptures which seem to indicate that man's hope in the last days in such things may be dashed. One economist; Harry Dent has predicted when the market finally crashes (something vastly overdue) that as with the Great Depression prices on gold may plunge along with; of course real estate and stocks in general. At present there is a very high price for gold; but I would argue for platinum and palladium as being vastly undervalued and once car manufacturing resumes it will go up. Silver also has a mining cost that is much closer to the present value and has many industrial uses so also is a good long term investment. In general with the volatility of that and say cryptocurrencies and other stocks we should pray for wisdom in such undertakings and of course the temperment to handle the 500 point or more swings in the Dow which seem to be a weekly event at least one day on average.
Switching to a completely different focus; we all should strive to have basic training in things such as CPR; the Heimlich maneuver; and have home fire drills as well as some basic knowledge of how to live in an emergency situation. If possible we should find some way to grow our own food; as well as learn basic trade skills such as carpentry to be as resourceful as possible.
If we can teach children and teens such skills at best it gives them something productive to do with their time. In light of my last post having a whole family prepared also will help the youth reach others in times of need. With the dangers in the schools today self defense is something that should be instilled by parents; ideally it should be taught in schools.
Of course prayer needs to be as important as breathing.
Well, it is as GOD's people have warned countless times,and I repeat, that the door would be shut, and it is already closed, in time and space, for all nations, for all mankind, since now and henceforward, instead of moving forward, they will stagnant as dammed as waters, or piled up, and they will not be able to go ahead. For example, like the waters of sea--> Job 38:
8Or who shut up the sea with doors,and set bars and doors,when it brake forth,as if it had issued out of the womb?--> (Sea=waters=are peoples,and NATIONS,and multitudes of all tongues-Revelation/ Apocalypse 17:15)
11And GOD said,Hitherto shalt thou come,but no further: and here shall thy proud waves(GENERATIONS)be stayed?
All NATIONS,all unbeliver mankind,and its generations,everyone will pile up as if a DIKE were in front of everyone.
Isaiah prophesied: 24:22
22And they shall be gathered together,as prisoners are gathered in the pit,and shall be shut up in the prison,and after many days shall they be visited. -->after the millennial kingdom ends.
This is the Word that matters and will prevail from now on,after all,
the ENDS of the times arrived,and the righteous Judgment of GOD and its consequences,the punishments,will be applied. Romans 2, take a look.
In this new time,this new Day,the seventh and last Day,the reality is that the mankind WILL NOT GO FORWARD with their political systems, and ideas, religions,economic systems,also theories of modus-vivend,projects,plans,dreams,in short,they will not go ahead with their usual activities,with their status quo of activities adopted until this current time,the door is already closed for this generations IN TIME and IN SPACE.And this is the Word that will prevail, the peoples, and NATIONS, and multitudes of all tongues will not go forward with their systems at all.
Luke 17:28-29
In the days of Lot;they did eat,they drank,they bought,they sold, they planted, they builded; but it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
It is uncertain what category this should be listed in. We all should pray that the resources and supplies we will need in light of several likely near term events will be adequately stocked and for the Lord to give us wisdom on that. We should seek to be the "head not the tail" ( Deut. 28:13); and that is in light of a broader examination of blessings in that chapter and subsequent verses describing curses in accordance with being obedient to the Lord.
We have ourselves as individuals for those single people in my situation; although I am living at home presently with elderly parents. Most people have families to consider; but we also should consider in a time of need to have provisions available for others. Today there is always some pull for us to give our extra change to this or that charity when we go shopping and many other donations directly or indirectly tied with our local church and other causes. To have something available for others sometimes is simply a Bible for some stranger or Gospel tracts and perhaps a few bucks or a gift certificate for a street person to get a free meal. I am not saying we should be obligated to have provisions for strangers but we should consider whenever say a power grid issue arises (the most likely thing at present on a large scale to affect a large region) it is something we should have a plan for. There are further issues with self defense under such a scenario; and we should also have some predetermined boundaries as to when to offer help and when we must say no. I just have a suspicion that very few have a plan to actually maintain food and other supplies for particular church members in a congregation; for instance. Churches often have some sort of items for particular events in storage; but again perhaps it would be wise to consider having some extra supplies as well as emergency shelter plans for future crises.
Let us seek the Lord in these things. Any comments?
Christ's death and resurrection destroyed the OLD and ushered in the NEW.
ALL flesh DIED on the cross of Christ, a new creation was resurrected, the image of Christ and his Father, the equal of Christ and his Father.
Isaiah 43:8 God does not share his glory with another, flesh and blood, they had to DIE, but he does bestow his glory on Christ; John 17:22 and we have been made ONE FLESH with Christ, by his resurrection, we are IN TRAVAIL of birth pains, waiting to be delivered into that PROMISE.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God.
Christ is not THE ONE GOD, but by INHERITANCE, is EQUAL with his Father, the one God.
We share that EQUALITY with Christ, by DYING with Christ on his cross, and being raised with him as ONE FLESH.
If we are going to LIVE by the WORD of God (the sword), we have to DIE by the WORD of God (the sword), understand the NEW and DIE to the OLD.
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.
We have the faith of Christ, we have the mind of Christ, we have the glory of Christ, we have the works of Christ, by inheritance.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we ALL .... are CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE .....by the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 15:53 ..... this mortal MUST put on IMMORTALITY ....
1 Timothy 6:16 .... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ....
Isaiah 63:9 And in all their affliction, he was afflicted, and the angel of HIS presence saved them ....
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery, hidden from the ages ..... Christ IN YOU ....
Yes Ronald , there is no love in violence , anyone who deliberately commits an act of violence is commiting sin and there has as you stated , been enormous violence done in the name of this doctrine , mostly by the ancient catholics . Romans Ch 4 verse 17 . 1st Peter Ch 3 verses 8-17 .
I'm sorry Chris but clarify was the word you used . I've replied to a post of S Spencer's , that post might help you understand what I was saying a bit better .
God was in Christ , in , reconciling the world to Himself . The Spirit of God , God is a Spirit , God's Holy Spirit , ( remember that known unto God are all His works from the beginning ) was in Christ , Christ was a separate living human , Christ knew who his Father was and what had been asked of him , he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect . The lamb could not willingly submit to God's will for it , Christ did , he learned obedience by the things that he suffered , when did he suffer these things that brought him to a state of complete obedience ? On the cross ? , no , his sufferings in his 30 years of previous human life on earth with a family in a community , those years are the years that he suffered as a human , the kind of things that we humans all still go through every day , those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience , obedience that started by being told to go to John and be baptized by him . He learned obedience by the things he suffered . His own human sufferings brought him to the state of obedience and therefore to the cross . He learned , just like we have to . We learn what ? What do we learn by our sufferings ? What is the lesson that is common to us all ? The lesson that Jesus learned ? Trust , faith , surrender , obey . These are our lessons to and if we learn them then they will lead us to our cross also . Jesus said : take up the cross and follow me . Trust , faith , surrender , obey . He learned those lessons by the things that he suffered , in his life before his ministry and during his ministry . I hope I don't need to clarify as I don't see how I can put it any plainer .
Hi , God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure . He will be whom He will be , He will manifest Himself in who He will , God is a Spirit . He can grant any of us a measure of His Spirit at any time but only Christ received it in full and was therefore the very image of God , but Christ was still a person , a human from his mother's womb he was the chosen vessel , created by God for that specific purpose , the lamb slain from the foundation of the world , the lamb that God Himself killed and skinned to make garments for Adam and Eve in order to cover their shame from the knowledge of their own sinfulness . That lamb was not literally Christ , it was still a lamb , flesh and blood , see the parallel ?
Hi Jesse: In responding to your comment, my Thomas Nelson KJV study bible Is hardcopy bible not a website and both copies of the one I and my son have read in Matthew 1:21 with JESUS all in caps. I also checked 6 online bible apps including this one and they all have JESUS in caps except biblegatway, Jesus' name only had the J in caps.
What do you mean by a modern KJB as opposed to just a KJB as you mentioned in your post to KayDee where you said "Jesus is not all in caps in the 1611, only in modern King James versions is the name JESUS all in caps." God Bless:)
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. Micah 5:2.
"And I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord." It is with reference to the glory of the Most High Court, which in the vision of St John bears a new name which is in keeping with the new heaven and the New Jerusalem is created from the perfect sacrifice of the Son." For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(He.10:14). "for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." (Re.21:1)
Isaiah asks Israel, "When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?/Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting./Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." (Is.1:12-14) Ezekiel's vision the v.5 to the last line in Ch.48) must be understood as an indictment to the sinful nation which has become reprobate silver falling from Bethel to Beth Aven. King Manasseh's evil reign stirred up great wrath that would not be assuaged "And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there."(2 Ki.23:25)
"What does "My name shall be there" indicate? Is it not what the vision of Ezekiel rests upon? "It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there."(48:35)
"This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God."(48:29
What is the significance of eighteen thousand measures? (6x3x1000) The Beast is 666. By same measure length breadth and height falls under judgment. A remnant shall be saved of which we read as saved nations.(Re.21:24)
Hello Shantel. I'm unsure whether your post here is in response to me in bro. Ronald's thread or not, but you seem to have referred to my question there.
You state, "Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God." What is Jesus stating in prayer to God His Father? He is asking His Father, that the Glory He shared with Him before the creation of the world, would once again be His possession. Jesus was about to go to the Cross to fully accomplish the Father's Will for Him and mankind. While on Earth, Jesus never failed to glorify His Father: He honored & magnified (Gk. doxa) God's Name to all by His Words, His Works, & His Life.
In these final moments, Jesus prays that as His Work is now finished (v4), that He too would be glorified with the Father in the fulfilment of the work of Redemption. Jesus states that He enjoyed the Glory of the Father in Heaven (which Glory God shares with none other: Isaiah 42:8). Jesus by His Coming had to lay aside that Glory ( Philippians 2:6-8) for embracing humanity & the suffering of death; and now the Work was done, that the Father would now bring Glory to His Son, that both would be glorified together ( John 17:1) in this hour that was planned for from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
Indeed, Jesus Christ "is the GLORY OF GOD" as you wrote, as God's Son He fulfilled His Father's Will completely. But Jesus also laid claim to His Glory which He shared with the Eternal God before His coming to Earth. If Jesus is not fully Divine coming forth from within the Person of God, then Who was He in Heaven sharing in God's Glory (as He claimed)? To Whom else would God share His Glory? Or does Jesus' prayer make Him a liar (even before God), or as one Who is deceived, or just maybe, a direct claim to the Divinity that He enjoyed within the Godhead in eternity. Blessings & thanks for your response.
" And they (the levites) shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place."(v.13)
God tells in the vision why. "Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity." This leads us to the sons of Zadok and their ministry which cannot be the order of Melchizedek. Let us examine this verse," Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons."(46:3).In the New Jerusalem there is no temple to begin with. "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it./And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it."(Re.21:22-23) This is the most holy place.
The people of the land refers to Jerusalem on the earth. "And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,/Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bond-service unto this day."(1 Ki.9:21). Significant is the use of this tag here unto this day' with regards the Mixed People.In.v.20 Solomon had given King Hiram 20 cities for all the material the king had given for the temple building. And Hiram came out from Tyre to see the cities which Solomon had given him; and they pleased him not./ And he said, What cities are these which thou hast given me, my brother? And he called them the land of Cabul unto this day."( 1 Ki. 9:12-13). In terms of the land also it explains why Jerusalem has come down in estimation. "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified"(Re.11:8)
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify THOU ME with thine OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God.
We, being made ONE FLESH, by the resurrection of Christ, became and heir of God, as Christ is an heir of God.
We are the children of Christ, his sons and daughters, he is our father and our god, until his Father has put all things under Christ, then Christ will turn the kingdom back to HIS FATHER and HIS GOD, and then God will be ALL in ALL, creation as ONE:
John 17:22 And the glory that thou has GIVEN ME I have given THEM; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE.
If there is a trinity, then we also are a part of that trinity; but a trinity implies three, yet there is going to be billions.
Psalms 136:2 O give thanks to the God of gods .....
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we ALL .... are CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE ..... even so by the Spirit of God.
Study Moses and the prophets, Christ FULFILLED them.
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of GOD should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of GOD cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of GOD is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they(WHO ARE THEM?) shall say to you, See here; or, see there(SEE WHOM? JOHN 5:43-47, A FALSE MESSIAH? AN ESOTERIC AND KABBALISTIC AND SPIRITIST FALSE MESSIAH-son of perdition?2Thes.2:2-12): GO NOT after them,NOR FOLLOW THEM.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his Day.->WHAT DAY? Now, now, the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. --> Terrible, very terrible.
GOD BLESS,
And our Lord JESUS warned us, saying: Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat,
they drank,
they married wives,
they were given in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Revelation 11:15 & 18
15...The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the NATIONS (ALL NATIONS) were (will be) ANGRY, and GOD's WRATH comes, similar to the WRATH as was in the flood, but now, in the ends of the times, it's by FIRE--> Isaiah 33:10-14 and Isaiah 34:1-4.
We have nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that Elimelech had fallen from grace. All we know is from Ruth 1:1-3, that because of a severe famine in Israel, Elimelech chose to move his family to Moab for their survival. Some might argue that this was a wrong move since Moab was an idolatrous country & his family & their descendants might be tempted to compromise their faith with the idolatrous Moabites. But the Word never checks Elimelech for his decision to move to Moab, and we note that Elimelech died there & then some years later, both his sons died also. But even from this we can't assume that he was being judged for his decision to relocate or had fallen from grace. We too might have been forced to do the same if found in that dire position in life, but as in all situations we find ourselves in, we must still live according to God's Holy requirements upon us & to please Him in all that we do and say.
Luke 1:2. The use of 'beginning' here is different, as Luke relates how he learned of those accounts of the Lord through those who were with Him & eyewitnesses of those events. Here it is according to Luke's receiving the information; in John's Gospel & Epistle, of eternity past. Same word - different application.
Revelation 19:13. Indeed, it is a title carried by Jesus. But the same John, who was given this revelation, also wrote that the Word of God was made flesh & dwelt among us. In John's vision, he sees the Word of God made flesh now coming in Power & Glory, His clothing dipped in Blood (whether representative of the saints martyred or of the coming slaughter of God's enemies), & the title He wears as God's Word made flesh & now coming in the same way He left. But none of this applies, when we can find no agreement whether John writes in his Gospel, of the Word (God) coming in flesh, or He Who came in flesh became God (Divine).
John 1:10. If this means that 'the world was made through & for Jesus', then we would have to make the same apply to Colossians 1:16,17 (as the same word 'dia' is used). And by doing so, the whole meaning of those verses change, especially that 'he is before all things and by him all things consist'.
Anyway, I hope I've addressed your points, but would still appreciate if anyone, a non-trinitarian, could explain John 17:5, which thus far over the years, none have obliged me. And I find that very strange. Blessings.
And in (1:1): "Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you".
In his letter to the Smyrnaeans (1:1) over whom Polycarp was Bishop he states: "I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise..".
And these were only two (Polycarp & Ignatius) mentioned here. There were others, as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen, who also in their writings referred to the Deity of Christ, not post-birth, but pre-birth. So I thought to make it clear that according to the records we have, the 'idea of the Trinity' was not conceived 400 years after Jesus, but from the earliest Church fathers, one of whom, Polycarp, learned under the tutorship of the Apostle John, ensuring that the doctrines & teachings administered were carried on correctly. What went wrong after that, we know that doctrines have been corrupted & mangled according to many factors coming upon men & the Church.
Moving on. Referring to the Scriptures you shared: John 1:1-3. I tried to read this passage as you do, but found it just doesn't make sense. If 'in the beginning' relates to the beginning of Christ's Ministry, are you suggesting in verse 1 that God's Word was then placed into Jesus, and He then was with God & also became God? Then what is this 'new creation' you refer to? Is it the New Birth? Even when the Word states that "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made". Surely, "All things and anything" must speak of much more than a new creation, as well as speaking in the past tense, that this creative work had already taken place.
1 John 1:1. I can understand that if you believe that John 1:1 refers to the commencement of Jesus' Ministry, then 1 John 1:1 would do also. Of course, I read 1 John 1:1 as I read John 1:1, referring to eternity past. Onto Page 3.
Thanks for your response bro. Ronald. I looked at Matthew 28:19, but unfortunately couldn't really understand your point here. But if I may, I will address the latter part of your recent comment to me, first.
You stated, "The importance that has been placed on this doctrine (trinity) 400 years after Jesus and the people who have been killed over it..". I know that this is a generally held belief by those holding the non-trinitarian position, but from examination of Church history, I've found this to be untrue. If I might provide some quotes in support:
"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (an excerpt from the Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, AD120-190).
Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, wrote several letters to the Churches en route to his execution in Rome (circa AD110).
In his Letter to the Ephesians (18:2) he states: "For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan..".
In (19:3) he states: "Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life..".
In (7:2) he states: "There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord". Onto Page 2.
I can finally get back to posting Scriptures you can review concerning aspects of ho God is unique. Our remodel is getting done day by day, but it does take up our time along with caring for little Rosie to give mom Vivian breaks throughout the day.
I would like to begin with Sef-Existence, as God is unique in this manner:
Exodus 3:14- God tells Moses that He is 'I Am Who I Am' (Inn Hebrew a word derived from 'to be" This self-existence in part of God's 'aseity' (a theological term you can look up to understand it better)
In John 5:26, Jesus says that the Father and He, Himself, have self-existence. They both have this Divine aseity.
For Simplicity, this is a doctrine implied from Scripture as a whole when considering all of what God has said concerning Himself.
This doctrine says that God is not 'made up' of differing parts, components, attributes, class of deity, or anything else that we as humans have a variety of both physical and spiritual parts that God designed in us to make us a whole human being.
If God was made of matter or any physical component, He would not be divine, but a creature who was designed by whomever/whatever put these parts together in him to make Him complete. Therefore, He does not have a body, blood, flesh as creatures have. God is also not composed of spiritual parts such as attributes, eternality, life, etc. because if these parts are necessary for God to be Divine, then either someone/something else created the parts and put them together to make God divine OR before God was He collected or created all these aspects of His Being and appropriated them to become God, which is an impossibility (nonexistence cannot make anything exist, but God who exists can make things from exnihilo (non-existence to existent components). The other explanations err too, in that if God needed components outside of Himself to be divine, then these parts or the one who created them would be God alongside or even be higher than God.
Hardcovers
Two copies of the Thomas Nelson KJV study bible.
A plain KJB.
Online
This forum
King James Bible with audio
You Version
Bible King James Version
All of these read with JESUS all in caps with "name all in lower case letters.
BibleGateway does have Jesus with just the "J" in caps.
Like I said, a mystery. God Bless :)
ran out of space...
to continue..
at his resurrection, or ascension, or glorification?
11) Do you believe that the Christ is divine?
12) Do you believe that Jesus is to be worshipped? Do you worship Him?
Ronald, I do appreciate your responses. I truly want to understand your system of beliefs more so that I can better respond to your thoughts when you post here. I love and respect you and love the way you are so thoughtful in your responses. I find this helpful. We are speaking here of beliefs that form the foundation of our belief and biblical understanding of who Jesus is and also who God is. These two aspects of our Christian faith are perhaps the most important ones and they affect every other belief in our professed faith as a Christian. These beliefs about Jesus and God affect how we believe about salvation, Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and glorification along with his power and authority and right to rule over heaven and earth.
Bless you for your care for me. I am grateful for that. Those who I have met on this forum and befriended are treasures to me. I can't wait to meet everyone when Jesus returns and we are all changed and glorified!
I appreciate the way you have spoken about hour beliefs about Jesus. I know we have discussed these matters before and I am not here to refute you, rather to understand your beliefs better. So, again, considered how you responded to the prior questions, I have a few more questions I would like you to explain from your viewpoint about Jesus. I do this lovingly and prayerfully and hope that God will help us in our understanding of each others' perspectives. This understanding will help us to be more knowledgeable about what core beliefs we have in our foundational doctrines concerning what the Bible teaches. I hope and pray that God will help you to explain your answers to these questions clearly and in a format that we all can really gain. Please bear with me if I have asked some of these questions before.
1) Do you believe that Son of God is God?
2) Do you believe that the Son of God is eternal in his existence, as the Father is?
3) If not, how did Son of God come into existence?
4) Do you believe that the Son of God and Jesus are the same person?
5) Do if not, do you believe that Jesus was conceived as only a human person?
6) Do you believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ?
7) If you answer yes to questions 5 and 6, when did He become the Christ?
8) Do you believe that Jesus, being only human, and the Christ are two entities?
9) Do you believe that Jesus was God embodied in human form (Emannuel)?
10) If Jesus had the Spirit in full measure, is this because He is united in the one God with the Father, and Spirit or do you believe that Jesus was indwelt with the Spirit in the same way as believers only was filled to the fullest measure a human person can be filled?
11) Do you believe that Jesus was only a human person and not God the Son in human nature?
12) If you believe that Jesus was only a human person, do you also believe that He was "adopted" as the Son of God? If so, was it at his conception. baptism, death,
Emmanuel
God demands a sacrifice from Abraham and he does as exactly as he was asked. "And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away."(Ge.15:11) That was a supper for Great God from whom all the families in earth shall be blessed.(Ge.12:3). He was after 'our likeness' and a double for the Son.
Because of sin of one man animal sacrifice was instituted by commandment,- the Law of Moses was the shadow of good things to come. God did not spare His own Son and in his perfect sacrifice all the sacrifices required of the nation of Israel requires payment. Sin of man required the creation to expect as St Paul says, " For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God./For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,/Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."/For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."(Ro.8:19-22) Now we shall consider how God allows them to be compensated. The Supper for the Great God makes 'all the fowls' partakers of their blessing.
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;/That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."(Re.19:17-18)
"And all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(v.21)"
Thanks for elaborating and clarifying your view about Jesus more in this post.
My understanding of what you presented here and in other posts is that you believe:
1) Jesus did not exist before His conception in Mary.
2) He was only a human person
3) Jesus was able to speak the words of God, live sinlessly, perform miracles only due to the indwelling of the Spirit of God in His human person.
4) Jesus is not God
5)Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) promised in the OT
6) Jesus died solely as a human person.
7) His death saves sinners from condemnation.
8) If He did not have the Spirit in all fullness he would have only been a mortal human person.
I may be wrong on sone of these points, as you did say that Jesus was God in the flesh I think. Please go through these points and let me know how you believe on each of these points so that I can more clearly understand your foundational beliefs about Jesus. Knowing these things about you will be helpful to me when I read your posts to know what perspective you are representing in your comments. I only am asking this in love for you and after praying on whether to enter this conversation with you, Chris, or Ronald as well as whether I should ask you about the points I put forth here.
The Supper is how the Spirit describes the blessing that shall be conferred on whosoever called in his Son. Jesus refers it to the knock on the door and "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Re.3:20). Jesus also referred it to a supper on a grand scale where "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."(Luke13:38). The outer darkness to which they are thrown into is not our present concern but all those that are invited. (Matt.8:12)
In the everlasting covenant God entrusts the man with the charge: "And have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." ( Ge. 1:28). They are represented in heaven as memorial and the four beasts as such cover blessings of the covenant with Man as theirs as well. In short, man's stewardship is as solemn as Jesus in his prayer tells his Father,"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition."( John 17:12,17). He also prays, "Sanctify them, Thy word is truth." The word is sound as well as sign. The slain Lamb before the worlds began is a sign. For this reason every animal sacrifice is in commemoration of the last Adam. So God commands Moses, "Your lamb shall be without blemish."(Ex.12:5)
God demands a sacrifice from Abraham and he does as exactly as he was asked. "And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away."(Ge.15:11) That was a supper for Great God from whom all the families in earth shall be blessed. He was after our likeness'
Because of sin of one man animal sacrifice was instituted by commandment as He did not spare His own So..
"And all the fowls were filled with their flesh."(v.21)
Thank you for those excerpts from the church leaders. It is quite apparent that the doctrine of the deity of Jesus was a part of the faith passed down from the apostles. And
So true, good verses, it is in forgiveness, obedience, and love.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks, brother, I sometimes do not explain my understanding in the best way, hey I'm old. Years ago, I studied some of the early church histories and I found some scholars have questions about the authenticity of their translations. I understand you believe in them and that is ok.
Just one thing on Ignatius CHAPTER XVIII it should read.
For our God, Jesus Christ was according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.
In John 1:10 by Him, the Greek word used is dia means through, on account of, and because of. The word made is the Greek word ginomai means to come into being, to happen, to become.
In Colossians 1:16-17 the Greek word en can mean in him, not by him, whether that changes anything or not.
I know we do not agree on this, but I will do my best to show how I see John 17:5. Like I have said before Jesus was the first thing in God's plan, everything was created in and through Jesus and what He would be. Jesus knew the glory of God's word from which came all things as we see in Genesis, God said, and it was.
When Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and filled with the Spirit without measure, he could see spiritual things unknown to any man. Some of God's servants did see into the future with just a glimpse, like Abraham, David, Moses, and others. Jesus could see and He knew the glory of God's creation and salvation plan.
Jesus knew who He was and was seeking this glory that was in God's plan before the world was to be his reward after all that he was sent to do was finished. In scripture declaring what is, even though it is not yet, simply because it is intended to be. If God intends it, it already is, even though it is not yet. Being from heaven is an expression meant to emphasize his sinless and holy state and show who sent him was God.
I hope this makes some sense.
God bless brother,
RLW
How do we pray? I am sure that I'm not alone here in stating how overwhelmed I feel and how little I feel I have for energy to contemplate the scenarios to pray about and against that are pressing up against us and certain to occur in the not too distant future. In some ways I don't know much difference between every day spiritual battles and the visible events that challenge us that affect our physical survival.
There's no point pretending that fear isn't ever present. Faith of course involves God's love; and when perfect it casts out fear.
Having likeminded individuals to pray with certainly is vital; and in today's world most of us find few if any of that mindset.
This site is certainly helpful in that regard. Ultimately the fear of death we know through His strength is overcome; but it is always up against us. It isn't wrong for us to have those feelings of doubt and self preservation but He lives in us and directs our steps.
Knowing that the end will come with all the baggage mentioned in Revelation; we can only pray that the restrainer holds things back as much as He can and that we aren't allowing things to commence prematurely as surely the enemy would like to do as much as possible. I've got to run here but thought again any suggestions would be good; surely we must pray on these big events as some things can still be temporarily thwarted. Let us focus on the Great Commission and sure victory to come and as much as possible through His strength keep away from sin.
Agape; Rich P
The most commonly marketed method for having something of value in an anticipated financial meltdown that may or may not be immediately tied in with a war or other disaster is to invest in gold and other precious metals. I have pointed out that there are some scriptures which seem to indicate that man's hope in the last days in such things may be dashed. One economist; Harry Dent has predicted when the market finally crashes (something vastly overdue) that as with the Great Depression prices on gold may plunge along with; of course real estate and stocks in general. At present there is a very high price for gold; but I would argue for platinum and palladium as being vastly undervalued and once car manufacturing resumes it will go up. Silver also has a mining cost that is much closer to the present value and has many industrial uses so also is a good long term investment. In general with the volatility of that and say cryptocurrencies and other stocks we should pray for wisdom in such undertakings and of course the temperment to handle the 500 point or more swings in the Dow which seem to be a weekly event at least one day on average.
Switching to a completely different focus; we all should strive to have basic training in things such as CPR; the Heimlich maneuver; and have home fire drills as well as some basic knowledge of how to live in an emergency situation. If possible we should find some way to grow our own food; as well as learn basic trade skills such as carpentry to be as resourceful as possible.
If we can teach children and teens such skills at best it gives them something productive to do with their time. In light of my last post having a whole family prepared also will help the youth reach others in times of need. With the dangers in the schools today self defense is something that should be instilled by parents; ideally it should be taught in schools.
Of course prayer needs to be as important as breathing.
8Or who shut up the sea with doors,and set bars and doors,when it brake forth,as if it had issued out of the womb?--> (Sea=waters=are peoples,and NATIONS,and multitudes of all tongues-Revelation/ Apocalypse 17:15)
11And GOD said,Hitherto shalt thou come,but no further: and here shall thy proud waves(GENERATIONS)be stayed?
All NATIONS,all unbeliver mankind,and its generations,everyone will pile up as if a DIKE were in front of everyone.
Isaiah prophesied: 24:22
22And they shall be gathered together,as prisoners are gathered in the pit,and shall be shut up in the prison,and after many days shall they be visited. -->after the millennial kingdom ends.
This is the Word that matters and will prevail from now on,after all,
the ENDS of the times arrived,and the righteous Judgment of GOD and its consequences,the punishments,will be applied. Romans 2, take a look.
In this new time,this new Day,the seventh and last Day,the reality is that the mankind WILL NOT GO FORWARD with their political systems, and ideas, religions,economic systems,also theories of modus-vivend,projects,plans,dreams,in short,they will not go ahead with their usual activities,with their status quo of activities adopted until this current time,the door is already closed for this generations IN TIME and IN SPACE.And this is the Word that will prevail, the peoples, and NATIONS, and multitudes of all tongues will not go forward with their systems at all.
Luke 17:28-29
In the days of Lot;they did eat,they drank,they bought,they sold, they planted, they builded; but it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Get ready
It is uncertain what category this should be listed in. We all should pray that the resources and supplies we will need in light of several likely near term events will be adequately stocked and for the Lord to give us wisdom on that. We should seek to be the "head not the tail" ( Deut. 28:13); and that is in light of a broader examination of blessings in that chapter and subsequent verses describing curses in accordance with being obedient to the Lord.
We have ourselves as individuals for those single people in my situation; although I am living at home presently with elderly parents. Most people have families to consider; but we also should consider in a time of need to have provisions available for others. Today there is always some pull for us to give our extra change to this or that charity when we go shopping and many other donations directly or indirectly tied with our local church and other causes. To have something available for others sometimes is simply a Bible for some stranger or Gospel tracts and perhaps a few bucks or a gift certificate for a street person to get a free meal. I am not saying we should be obligated to have provisions for strangers but we should consider whenever say a power grid issue arises (the most likely thing at present on a large scale to affect a large region) it is something we should have a plan for. There are further issues with self defense under such a scenario; and we should also have some predetermined boundaries as to when to offer help and when we must say no. I just have a suspicion that very few have a plan to actually maintain food and other supplies for particular church members in a congregation; for instance. Churches often have some sort of items for particular events in storage; but again perhaps it would be wise to consider having some extra supplies as well as emergency shelter plans for future crises.
Let us seek the Lord in these things. Any comments?
Agape. Rich P
Christ's death and resurrection destroyed the OLD and ushered in the NEW.
ALL flesh DIED on the cross of Christ, a new creation was resurrected, the image of Christ and his Father, the equal of Christ and his Father.
Isaiah 43:8 God does not share his glory with another, flesh and blood, they had to DIE, but he does bestow his glory on Christ; John 17:22 and we have been made ONE FLESH with Christ, by his resurrection, we are IN TRAVAIL of birth pains, waiting to be delivered into that PROMISE.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God.
Christ is not THE ONE GOD, but by INHERITANCE, is EQUAL with his Father, the one God.
We share that EQUALITY with Christ, by DYING with Christ on his cross, and being raised with him as ONE FLESH.
If we are going to LIVE by the WORD of God (the sword), we have to DIE by the WORD of God (the sword), understand the NEW and DIE to the OLD.
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.
We have the faith of Christ, we have the mind of Christ, we have the glory of Christ, we have the works of Christ, by inheritance.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we ALL .... are CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE .....by the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 15:53 ..... this mortal MUST put on IMMORTALITY ....
1 Timothy 6:16 .... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light ....
Isaiah 63:9 And in all their affliction, he was afflicted, and the angel of HIS presence saved them ....
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery, hidden from the ages ..... Christ IN YOU ....
God Bless You
God was in Christ , in , reconciling the world to Himself . The Spirit of God , God is a Spirit , God's Holy Spirit , ( remember that known unto God are all His works from the beginning ) was in Christ , Christ was a separate living human , Christ knew who his Father was and what had been asked of him , he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect . The lamb could not willingly submit to God's will for it , Christ did , he learned obedience by the things that he suffered , when did he suffer these things that brought him to a state of complete obedience ? On the cross ? , no , his sufferings in his 30 years of previous human life on earth with a family in a community , those years are the years that he suffered as a human , the kind of things that we humans all still go through every day , those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience , obedience that started by being told to go to John and be baptized by him . He learned obedience by the things he suffered . His own human sufferings brought him to the state of obedience and therefore to the cross . He learned , just like we have to . We learn what ? What do we learn by our sufferings ? What is the lesson that is common to us all ? The lesson that Jesus learned ? Trust , faith , surrender , obey . These are our lessons to and if we learn them then they will lead us to our cross also . Jesus said : take up the cross and follow me . Trust , faith , surrender , obey . He learned those lessons by the things that he suffered , in his life before his ministry and during his ministry . I hope I don't need to clarify as I don't see how I can put it any plainer .
What do you mean by a modern KJB as opposed to just a KJB as you mentioned in your post to KayDee where you said "Jesus is not all in caps in the 1611, only in modern King James versions is the name JESUS all in caps." God Bless:)
In line 2 please read Most High Court as Most Holy place (44:13)
"And I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord." It is with reference to the glory of the Most High Court, which in the vision of St John bears a new name which is in keeping with the new heaven and the New Jerusalem is created from the perfect sacrifice of the Son." For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(He.10:14). "for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." (Re.21:1)
Isaiah asks Israel, "When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?/Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting./Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." (Is.1:12-14) Ezekiel's vision the v.5 to the last line in Ch.48) must be understood as an indictment to the sinful nation which has become reprobate silver falling from Bethel to Beth Aven. King Manasseh's evil reign stirred up great wrath that would not be assuaged "And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there."(2 Ki.23:25)
"What does "My name shall be there" indicate? Is it not what the vision of Ezekiel rests upon? "It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there."(48:35)
"This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God."(48:29
What is the significance of eighteen thousand measures? (6x3x1000) The Beast is 666. By same measure length breadth and height falls under judgment. A remnant shall be saved of which we read as saved nations.(Re.21:24)
"
You state, "Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God." What is Jesus stating in prayer to God His Father? He is asking His Father, that the Glory He shared with Him before the creation of the world, would once again be His possession. Jesus was about to go to the Cross to fully accomplish the Father's Will for Him and mankind. While on Earth, Jesus never failed to glorify His Father: He honored & magnified (Gk. doxa) God's Name to all by His Words, His Works, & His Life.
In these final moments, Jesus prays that as His Work is now finished (v4), that He too would be glorified with the Father in the fulfilment of the work of Redemption. Jesus states that He enjoyed the Glory of the Father in Heaven (which Glory God shares with none other: Isaiah 42:8). Jesus by His Coming had to lay aside that Glory ( Philippians 2:6-8) for embracing humanity & the suffering of death; and now the Work was done, that the Father would now bring Glory to His Son, that both would be glorified together ( John 17:1) in this hour that was planned for from the foundation of the world ( 1 Peter 1:20).
Indeed, Jesus Christ "is the GLORY OF GOD" as you wrote, as God's Son He fulfilled His Father's Will completely. But Jesus also laid claim to His Glory which He shared with the Eternal God before His coming to Earth. If Jesus is not fully Divine coming forth from within the Person of God, then Who was He in Heaven sharing in God's Glory (as He claimed)? To Whom else would God share His Glory? Or does Jesus' prayer make Him a liar (even before God), or as one Who is deceived, or just maybe, a direct claim to the Divinity that He enjoyed within the Godhead in eternity. Blessings & thanks for your response.
" And they (the levites) shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place."(v.13)
God tells in the vision why. "Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity." This leads us to the sons of Zadok and their ministry which cannot be the order of Melchizedek. Let us examine this verse," Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons."(46:3).In the New Jerusalem there is no temple to begin with. "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it./And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it."(Re.21:22-23) This is the most holy place.
The people of the land refers to Jerusalem on the earth. "And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,/Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bond-service unto this day."(1 Ki.9:21). Significant is the use of this tag here unto this day' with regards the Mixed People.In.v.20 Solomon had given King Hiram 20 cities for all the material the king had given for the temple building. And Hiram came out from Tyre to see the cities which Solomon had given him; and they pleased him not./ And he said, What cities are these which thou hast given me, my brother? And he called them the land of Cabul unto this day."( 1 Ki. 9:12-13). In terms of the land also it explains why Jerusalem has come down in estimation. "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified"(Re.11:8)
Christ is the GLORY OF GOD, his Father, he is not the Father or God; but the Son of his Father and his God.
We, being made ONE FLESH, by the resurrection of Christ, became and heir of God, as Christ is an heir of God.
We are the children of Christ, his sons and daughters, he is our father and our god, until his Father has put all things under Christ, then Christ will turn the kingdom back to HIS FATHER and HIS GOD, and then God will be ALL in ALL, creation as ONE:
John 17:22 And the glory that thou has GIVEN ME I have given THEM; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE.
If there is a trinity, then we also are a part of that trinity; but a trinity implies three, yet there is going to be billions.
Psalms 136:2 O give thanks to the God of gods .....
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we ALL .... are CHANGED into the SAME IMAGE ..... even so by the Spirit of God.
Study Moses and the prophets, Christ FULFILLED them.
God Bless You
Luke 17:20-25
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of GOD should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of GOD cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of GOD is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they(WHO ARE THEM?) shall say to you, See here; or, see there(SEE WHOM? JOHN 5:43-47, A FALSE MESSIAH? AN ESOTERIC AND KABBALISTIC AND SPIRITIST FALSE MESSIAH-son of perdition?2Thes.2:2-12): GO NOT after them,NOR FOLLOW THEM.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his Day.->WHAT DAY? Now, now, the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. --> Terrible, very terrible.
GOD BLESS,
And our Lord JESUS warned us, saying: Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat,
they drank,
they married wives,
they were given in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Revelation 11:15 & 18
15...The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the NATIONS (ALL NATIONS) were (will be) ANGRY, and GOD's WRATH comes, similar to the WRATH as was in the flood, but now, in the ends of the times, it's by FIRE--> Isaiah 33:10-14 and Isaiah 34:1-4.
GET READY
Luke 1:2. The use of 'beginning' here is different, as Luke relates how he learned of those accounts of the Lord through those who were with Him & eyewitnesses of those events. Here it is according to Luke's receiving the information; in John's Gospel & Epistle, of eternity past. Same word - different application.
Revelation 19:13. Indeed, it is a title carried by Jesus. But the same John, who was given this revelation, also wrote that the Word of God was made flesh & dwelt among us. In John's vision, he sees the Word of God made flesh now coming in Power & Glory, His clothing dipped in Blood (whether representative of the saints martyred or of the coming slaughter of God's enemies), & the title He wears as God's Word made flesh & now coming in the same way He left. But none of this applies, when we can find no agreement whether John writes in his Gospel, of the Word (God) coming in flesh, or He Who came in flesh became God (Divine).
John 1:10. If this means that 'the world was made through & for Jesus', then we would have to make the same apply to Colossians 1:16,17 (as the same word 'dia' is used). And by doing so, the whole meaning of those verses change, especially that 'he is before all things and by him all things consist'.
Anyway, I hope I've addressed your points, but would still appreciate if anyone, a non-trinitarian, could explain John 17:5, which thus far over the years, none have obliged me. And I find that very strange. Blessings.
And in (1:1): "Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you".
In his letter to the Smyrnaeans (1:1) over whom Polycarp was Bishop he states: "I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise..".
And these were only two (Polycarp & Ignatius) mentioned here. There were others, as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen, who also in their writings referred to the Deity of Christ, not post-birth, but pre-birth. So I thought to make it clear that according to the records we have, the 'idea of the Trinity' was not conceived 400 years after Jesus, but from the earliest Church fathers, one of whom, Polycarp, learned under the tutorship of the Apostle John, ensuring that the doctrines & teachings administered were carried on correctly. What went wrong after that, we know that doctrines have been corrupted & mangled according to many factors coming upon men & the Church.
Moving on. Referring to the Scriptures you shared: John 1:1-3. I tried to read this passage as you do, but found it just doesn't make sense. If 'in the beginning' relates to the beginning of Christ's Ministry, are you suggesting in verse 1 that God's Word was then placed into Jesus, and He then was with God & also became God? Then what is this 'new creation' you refer to? Is it the New Birth? Even when the Word states that "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made". Surely, "All things and anything" must speak of much more than a new creation, as well as speaking in the past tense, that this creative work had already taken place.
1 John 1:1. I can understand that if you believe that John 1:1 refers to the commencement of Jesus' Ministry, then 1 John 1:1 would do also. Of course, I read 1 John 1:1 as I read John 1:1, referring to eternity past. Onto Page 3.
Thanks for your response bro. Ronald. I looked at Matthew 28:19, but unfortunately couldn't really understand your point here. But if I may, I will address the latter part of your recent comment to me, first.
You stated, "The importance that has been placed on this doctrine (trinity) 400 years after Jesus and the people who have been killed over it..". I know that this is a generally held belief by those holding the non-trinitarian position, but from examination of Church history, I've found this to be untrue. If I might provide some quotes in support:
"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth and in all gentleness and in all freedom from anger and forbearance and steadfastness and patient endurance and purity, and may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our LORD AND GOD JESUS CHRIST and in his Father who raised him from the dead." (an excerpt from the Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, AD120-190).
Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, wrote several letters to the Churches en route to his execution in Rome (circa AD110).
In his Letter to the Ephesians (18:2) he states: "For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God's plan..".
In (19:3) he states: "Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished, when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life..".
In (7:2) he states: "There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord". Onto Page 2.