Thanks again brother Ronald, and apologies for the late reply - had a busy day. On the Ignatius reference, my quote was the shortened version, particularly to highlight the first part, "For our God, Jesus Christ..", showing his understanding of Who Jesus is. And I won't dispute the rest of the quote, as I hadn't made a note of it in my research some time ago.
To John 17:5. That's an interesting understanding of this verse. I'm sorry Ronald, I started writing out a very detailed response to what you had written, trying desperately to align your understanding with what I was reading in the verse, but unfortunately failed at every attempt to make sense of it. Honestly, I kept reading & re-reading what you presented, but couldn't reconstruct the verse to fit what you believe, and felt that I would have messed my response up badly making it nonsense and unintelligible. So apologies for that and I will have to leave it there & thanks for your time & trouble to give your explanation of that verse. Blessings.
The other point: Hebrews 5:8,9. Unfortunately, I don't share your understanding, as you wrote, "those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience". If Jesus had to learn how to obey, through His sufferings in life & leading to the Cross, it implies that He had times of disobedience at various stages in His Life. We know that Jesus was perfect & sinless; why should these life's lessons teach Him how to obey when He was sinless & always obeyed?
Rather, when we look at both verses, 'obedience' wasn't a trait He had to learn (as how we sinners have to learn how to behave & obey). But He always obeyed His Father, so that when He "became the author of eternal salvation", the suffering He had to endure caused Him to cleave to His Father even more in unflinching obedience to His Will & thus showed His full suitability as a Sacrifice for sin. Obedience was not something Jesus had to learn to do, rather to put His Obedience to a very practical test through sufferings & identifying with us in ours & we in Him ( Hebrews 4:15, Hebrews 2:10,11). So Jaz, you have stated your points clearly here. Thank you.
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
"The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever."
Psalmist Asaph labels Israel as "haters of the Lord." Jesus was aware of it. "They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty." This was foreknown and Jesus would quote this to forewarn his disciple. "(Ps.69:4; John 15:18-27;Ep.6:12). "He that hateth me hateth my Father also." Such hatred persisting in this world tells what St Paul warned as to what we are up against. Spiritual wickedness in high places is nothing personal but serving Satan as a proxy. How often we come across the apologists for Israel and bending backwards to justify the slaughter of the innocents in Gaza. Israel has done much worse than Herod in evil. It is all because these simple ignoramuses do not study the Word to their profit. Literal passages are enough for them. There was a cult group formerly known as Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. Citing Ezekiel they were all for Israel reinstating animal sacrifices. At surface they were to assert God cannot go wrong. Where Israel failed God will lead them to prove His ways are the best. Was it their reverence for unseen God or their hatred of the perfect sacrifice of the Son? Their will worship ,-touch not, taste not and see not was more enforced than abiding with Christ. This is how a dead fly like Israel has caused the pot of imposter churches stink.
"Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!/I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. "(Ps.81:13-14)
The Psalmist applies the time to the nation and not forever. "but their time should have endured for ever."
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High./But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
The three psalms of which this psalm falls as the central pillar is composed by Asaph. The v.1 is a perfect statement by the Spirit. "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." What qualifies as perfect speech. "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."(Ps.12:6) Everlasting covenant confers blessings to a believer called to be a saint. Unless he learns to be an overcomer which can only be through the grace of the most High 'ye shall die like men, and fall like on of the princes." where you fail all the seven days of the covenant are fallen out of your grasp.
With regards to the princes we have them named in the Ps.83. "For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head./They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones."(Ps.83:2-3)
What goes on in Gaza is a symptom of the spiritual wickedness from heavenly places directed against the saints, "thy hidden ones" and it shall be beginning of sorrows and at some point of time shall reach a critical mass."And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."( Luke 21:28). This is not our but the heathen out there stoking the conflict for their own ends have put their inroads to nations that have been careless in their friendships. It is thus the ungodly world has made pacts with 'gods of this world.' When God standeth in the congregation of the mighty' an horse is a vain thing and as the Psalm says, "An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength."(Ps.33:17). It is time that we quit like men and trust in our Lord Savior from getting entangled in the devil's wiles.
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Dear Jesse, I checked the 1611 KJV link on this site and the verse in Matthew in this discussion is written as you state:
Name is written this way and Jesus is written Iesus.
I think as you do that perhaps Momsage has a revised 1611 KJV. It still has the Old Elizabethan English, but some revision were made to the original version several times in the first hundred or so years after it was published. She may not know that hers is a revision, so is innocently insisting that her version is the original 1611 KJV. If hers is a revision as I explained, then I hope the Lord will show that this is so. If it is not a revision, then we have an impasse here and it may be best to move on to another thread for the sake of peace. God's blessings to you, Momsage and KayDee as the Spirit shows you all the way in this discussion.
Dear Richard, my trustworthy friend. If you feel that Spirit prompting you to take a break from posting her, then do so. I wlll continue to keep you in my prayers and I am glad you have shared so much of your personal life because it deepens out friendship, promotes love and compassion, and gives us concrete ways to bring petitions before God.
I do not think that you are in any way promoting yourself here. You are following God being real about the yourself, your life, and your faith. Thank you for your sincerity, deep concern or others, the way you self-reflect, desiring to not think too highly of yourself than you ought. We all should pray to be like that as we are instructed to do so in Romans 12:3. We are to check ourselves to see that we are truly in the faith and to live by it.
Dear Richard, I will miss you in your absence, but will pray that God will lead you back to us here. You are important on this site as are everyone who God has led here. I am learning from you and other, I am also being instructed by the Holy Spirit on how I am to express myself in writing here according to the power of the Holy Spirit and the by discipline of Him and by the gifting He has so graciously bestowed on me to be able to read and write and understand what others say as we communicate with each other in love, truth, and restraint from thinking and saying things we think we know about another individual that only God can know.
All of us on here come from individual life experiences both as believers and when we were'nt; when we have been blessed in a church situation and when we have been harmed, misled, and mistreated; when we work through difficult situations with those in our families and among our friends with the tension between our love and concern for them and our greater love and commitment to God and to the truth of His Holy Word. We can1 always pray for the ability to sort of 'be in another's shoes' and gain understanding and compassion for others troubles. Amen
I will pray God's will is done. Honestly we are likely very near a power grid failure and extended time where we will not be able to communicate this way. My prayer is that we will be able to be effective warriors in light of challenges ahead; and have wisdom in survival under any circumstances as the Apostles did with their backs against the wall.
It seems the Lord's coming is very near and if He tarries a number of birth pangs to come to our nation as well as the world.
At present I will ask the Lord to give guidance to a possible alternate site or some new concept to intercept and destroy things that are aiming to bring down the site. The idea comes to mind to perhaps have a different sites for different regions; perhaps in the US and or other countries. Maybe a daily update without all the threads going back a decade would help?
I am as you may have seen expressed some concerns of late on topics that seem to be causing division among some longer standing individuals here. Answering with scripture always helps as a first response. I guess it is hard to determine where to draw the line but perhaps after several rebuttals that are showing hostility there should be a 3 strikes you're out; or maybe for a month or so that particular thread should be cut off.
Whatever happens I want to thank you guys for the latitude I have been given here and the opportunity to volunteer for counsel when needed although there was only one person you asked me to pray for in that situation. I have probably expressed to you before what I said today that I hope someone makes a concerted effort to respond to prayer requests as well as people sharing when prayer are answered by the Lord I guess you guys can have a prayer request of the day from churches; missionaries or world events as another idea I have.
Thanks you for pointing out this truth God has revealed in Scripture by the Son, and the Spirit of Truth.
This adds to my postings in a very good way. Those who believe that Jesus is indeed God and Man believe this fundamental truth of the one true faith passed down to the saints by the apostles. Those who do not believe that Jesus is God and Man are in error and believe and promote a different and false Jesus than what has been clearly revealed in Scripture when they say He is a created being, merely a human, earned his adoption and title of the Son of God at his conception, baptism, death, resurrection, ascension, or glorification as merely a human person.
It is important for Christians to profess the truth of the real Jesus revealed in Scripture by the Himself, the Father, and the holy Spirit, believe it deeply, teach it correctly, and defend this truth about Jesus being God and Man against every and all who believe, profess, promote, and teach the false Jesus who is only a human person or other creature created by the one solitary God. This false belief inevitable teaches that created beings can change their nature to come to share the One Divine Nature that only the three distinct Person existing in the Nature because their false Jesus did by adoption or reward or appointment by God for living the sinless life because he was indwelt by the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
Our God is so very great, transcendent in His Triunity of Persons and Oneness of Being, and His graciousness to reveal this mystery we are able to understand in part but not in totality. When we get to heaven we will behold the fullness of God in the God-Man Jesus, the only eternal Divine Son of the Father. Hallelujah! Praise to Him forever!
Giannis, when we get to heaven we will know who is right in their belief on this matter and who is in error, but all will learn so much more than this about the completely majestic, beautiful, unfathomable God who has called us.
In leaving an open door for comments; or others to take up a subject and run with it I hoped to avoid self centeredness. I had hoped my questioning would help me find some answers I hadn't considered as well as showing that I am human and don't have all the answers. There is always opportunity to respond to people's prayer requests which I could also focus on even exclusively instead.
I will leave this idea as well; in standing for the Lord one is in the minority and from personal experience recently can cost a friendship. There are some things we need to stand on and others that aren't as crucial. The Lord Himself through the Spirit should be the one who is bringing up situations; tugging on us and revealing through repeated situations what we must take a stand for. I think I should say that those on this site who take an opposing view aren't people we are seeing face to face and thus we need to be careful reading thoughts and intentions that may be contrary to what we think when someone has a different viewpoint. I say this for the sake of others who are struggling with health issues; family problems and other things that we have Agape love and compassion.
I have been through a lot and probably I have shared way too much over the past year in particular. I appreciate the support of those who have prayed for me. I am learning some things continuing on living with my parents and without those in my church praying for me as well and God's help I would have been toast by now. I am hoping people will share as was the case with one individual who was homeless that found a place shortly after I and another sister in Christ prayed he would find someplace to live. When prayers are answered please share it at this site.
I will conclude by saying my famous quote we are all going to be together forever so may as well start getting along now. If we are truly His that should be food for thought.
Thanks for the information. It confirms what I noticed about "Shantel", as I am sure others have also come to the same conclusion. I keep Earl in my prayers regularly.
I wanted to also say that I was just introducing the idea that I was being open to others who wanted to pray about the world events in general; especially of course those in the countries most effected who may be on this site.
I also sense there is more and more bickering over sensitive topics that seems to be fomented by the enemy to steal our joy.
Some of that of course is inevitable in holding to scriptural doctrinal truths as best we understand it.
I don't want to just dump out ideas to point to myself but perhaps that is what people are indicating to me. Maybe I have to reassess if I have drifted in that direction. Hopefully some personal but anonymous details of the interactions and stories I have from my own personal experience and those in my churches that I have attended and Christian friends has helped somebody.
We are limited here ourselves with anonymity.
Things are accelerating rapidly. He is in control until the end of the Age. It seems prudent at this point to look at the approaching Tribulation and spend most of the time on this site delineating between the truth and the lies which are seemingly harder daily to differentiate. I won't elaborate here but there is increasing prophecies that seem to be coming to pass where the "Prophet" is assuming an individual is saved or going to be saved when it is clear that hasn't happened. We need to believe clearly the Word where it says that everyone eventually is going to worship the Beast whose name isn't written in the Book of Life. That is why I feel it is so important to bring home the importance of knowing we are hearing from the Holy Spirit and testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
I appreciate being given a platform here; and leave to others whatever they conclude. I can only say that I won't add anything to whatever I sense the Lord has shown me; and always want to back things up with scripture
Jesus was not two Persons, a human Person and a Divine Person, or just a human Person. The Person of Jesus is only the Divine Son who has two natures, a mortal human nature who was created at the conception (incarnation) and an eternal divine nature that always existed intrinsically in the one unified Being of God as the Son of the Father.
The Incarnated Divine Son of God was named Jesus (Savior) Since He was God in human flesh, He could not sin, because the divine Personhood of Jesus could never sin and the human nature of Jesus was always subject to His Divine Nature.
Jesus lived the perfect human life that no other human could ever live. As God, He could do this. Not event he angels could do this because they are a created entity whose holiness and lack of sin is maintained by God as God's choice, but He did not keep all of the angels from sin, so it is always a biblical fact that angels are made capable of sinning. Jesus, as God was never capable of sinning. This is called Impeccability in theological terms.
If one merely human person could live a human life, he would be acceptable to God for being sinless and holy, but such a person could not make any other human acceptable to God. Only the righteousness of a sinless divine Person who lived a perfect human life as God incarnate could make any and all human persons acceptable to God by His sinlessness, sacrificial death, victorious resurrection accomplished by the power of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and His glorification as God and Man forever to be the righteousness of all who believe and trust Him as our Mediator and God's Mediator, reconciled the elect to the one Being of God.
I have read the two comments so far; and will take into advisement a short leave from this site to reevaluate whether my comments are at this point bringing discouragement to others in admitted struggles that I mentioned today. If my lack of maturity is too transparent or overpowering any edifying things then I guess I have to leave it to those more mature in their walk to be an encouragement to others. There are a couple things I wanted to make clear however.
First; I wasn't trying to give some sort of game plan to get through the Tribulation; just was attempting to foresee the evil that is to come as Proverbs 27:12 states which is ahead before the Rapture; if we hold to a PreTrib mentality. As to the subject of self defense or not; I would ask people to look realistically at scripture rather than having a one size fits all concept. ( Luke 22:36 as one example). If we must die as martyrs we must rely on the Spirit. I truly look up to those who are sold out enough that they are prepared to die at any time in their boldness witnessing; perhaps sharing what is inherent to all men who allow their old nature to rise up isn't helpful. I will once again appeal to the scriptures as Christ did with Peter in Matthew 26:33-34.
We also face an array of unknown variables. Just tonight there is news not necessarily in mainstream of 12 major ships of ours in the Mediterranean; as well as the largest oil refinery in Russia ablaze. When surprises happen I hope that most on this site at least are prepared; in the church at large I am doubtful.
I did stray from heavy scriptural references as I occasionally do on a topic. I have been blessed with being able to get into most subject matters that have been on my heart for decades in the last couple of years here. Perhaps I need to consider ending these posts permanently; but as with anything I don't like being hasty.
no mere human being ever could live a perfectly sinless life because every mere human being is corrupted by sin by their innate sinful nature that is present in them at conception. They are sinful before they are born. Even if a mere human being had the fullness of the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they would still not be able to live a sinless life because of this same biblical truth.
Jesus was not a mere human being, but God in the flesh: Emmanuel-God with us. Col. 2:9 says that the fullness of the Godhead whether referring to; the three persons of the one Being or the Divine Nature, or the one Divine Being; or all) Jesus was the divine Godhead revealed to mankind in the divine Person of Jesus in the Incarnation when the Divine Son became a human with a body and nature, but not with sinful nature. John 1:14; Hebrews 2L14; 4:15)
Jesus is the eternal divine Son of the Father in the intimate union of the Triunity of the Persons of the Godhead. Even when He was incarnated, He remained the God, since the essence and Being of God is shared equally and fully by all three Persons because all three are called God in Scripture, as I noted in my posts on God Is Spirit AND God is Son and Savior.
Phil 2:6 speaks that Jesus exists as God, but affirmed that His equality with God was not something He grasped from God or acquired and that it cannot happen in any way since God said that there has never been any other God formed before Him, or will there by after Him, nor at any time. Jesus was eternally God with the Father and Holy Spirit. But He humbled Himself to become a man so that He could carry out His work in the everlasting covenant between the Godhead that was determined before anything was created. He was not created, ever, as a created entity nor as a divine Person. In the incarnation, the Father created a human nature and body for the Divine Person, God the Son, and caused this Divine Son to be conceived in Mary and develop as a human.
If it were possible for a human being to live a sinless life just by having the Spirit indwelling in them (even without measure) then there would be no need for Jesus'sacrifice on the cross. God would just have filled us with His Spirit and everything would be OK. He could have done that from the very beginning, with Adam and Eve. Why sent Jesus on earth?
Thank you for your response Shantel. From it, I will just pull out one statement of yours that seems more applicable to the questions I asked. And that is, " Philippians 2:6: Who being in the FORM of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God.
Christ is not THE ONE GOD, but by INHERITANCE, is EQUAL with his Father, the one God."
I understand that Christ is not the Father (He is the Son of God), for there is only One God. But you state that it is by "Inheritance" that Jesus that holds 'Equality' with His Father God. If that was so, then it applies to His State while on Earth, doing the Will of His Father. What about His Life before His coming to Earth? For that is what this Scripture is pointing us to: Jesus' Form as He appeared to men and to His Equality as pertaining to His Father. Obviously, the word 'Form' can't describe His physical appearance, for how can anyone describe God's Form, rather to His Essence in Being & the Splendor, Holiness & Power He brings. Even though all this was evident in Jesus' Life, His Equality with God (i.e. His 'sameness' in Glory, Majesty, & Power) was something He had to put aside ("taking upon him the form of a servant") so that He could fulfil God's Will in Life & Death. He could not put aside something He did not have. Jesus, through His Humanity veiled His 'God-form' to clothe Himself with 'Man-form'.
So, my focus has been on Who Jesus really is when He came to Earth. Was He just a fresh/new creation of God to be sacrificed for mankind, or did He come forth from the Essence of God, as God, laying aside that Glory & Honor, to be made flesh, taking on the physical limited state of man so as to perform God's Loving Purposes for us? God could have easily 'snapped His Fingers' (as it were) & created a man to be sacrificed. But it is quite another thing when God's Love for us meant that He came Himself, in His Son, to lay down His Life for us. For only such a Sacrifice would be fully pay for our sins & redeem us to God. GBU.
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
And, as I stated it is to learn and understand about you and your views that I ask. We have discussed this topic before in how we disagree in some aspects. I do not wish to do that again. Only understand more why you say things as you do on topics being discussed here. Looking forward to your answers and learning more about you.
I kind of thought this would be your reply. Please know I respect your choice here. Yet in doing so, you will probably be misunderstood on this forum by many others. And that saddens me. I anticipate that others will continue to ask you to clarify your comments. Even though you say what you post is very clearly stated, it often is not. You may know in your mind what you mean, but the way you express it on here does not convey a clear meaning. I am not trying to criticize you, but only say that communicating to others is important. And in doing so, most people would want to do so in a clear and coherent way so others can follow our meaning and how we support it. Whatever you choose to do here is your freedom as it is mine to share in my way. So, be blessed and do not take offense of me here as I do not take offense at your reply that I am replying to.
These other things would be God, not the God of Scripture.
With the doctrine of simplicity, His immutability is one aspect of His divine simplicity. James 1:17 speaks of this when he says that in God there is no shadow of turning. This means that there is no changing in Him and no variation or alteration or degree or greater or lesser of anything of His Being. This tells us that God is not made of parts, that He is unable to be anything than what He is eternally and He is perfect in every possible way to be perfect.
Divine simplicity also speaks of God actually Being what He reveals of Himself and also what we have yet to know of Hm. He is all that He describes Himself to be. he does not have attributes or perfections, He is these. For instance, the Scriptures tell us that God is I AM (IS) saying that He is existence. (EX, 3:14) He says that He is life, ( John 14:6) along with the truth and way. God is light ( I John 1:5. God is Spirit John (4:24): God says, I am merciful, ( Ex. 22:27). John 11:25 Jesus say He is the Resurrection and the Life. These are just some of the examples where God equates His attributes with who He is not what He has.
Another aspect of God's uniqueness is that He is the only God that exists; no other God will be made or come into existence, nor was there any other God who preceded Him See Is. 46:9. Is.44:6-8; Is. 43:10-Isaiah, who saw the LORD (Jesus) on the throne in heaven in Is. 6; and John 8:38-41. This uniqueness as the one and only true divine being is the very basis of our faith.
Another aspect of God's uniqueness is His oneness- He is a unified single God who exists as three distinct persons-the Father, the Son, and the hoy Spirit who all three share the divine nature equally, eternally, and fully. I will speak more of this in my next post on "God is a UNITY".
God's uniqueness sets Him apart from all else. There is no one like Him!
Thanks for your time and interest Gigi , however , I don't feel the need to continue explaining my beliefs . I believe the Bible , the Word of God and I am excitedly awaiting the return of Christ to earth to set up his Father's Kingdom . This is my joy and I'm focused on it . I do think that I have posted plenty of scriptural references and explained my beliefs enough . I don't feel the need to continue doing so , I read the same Bible as you and everyone else on here . Christ is at the door and I'm focused on him and doing my best to live in him . I'm not at all offended or perturbed by people who don't believe the same things as me , so I hope that I don't offend or perturb anyone else . May God bless all who search for His Eternal Truth .
Matthew6:6, When thou, you prayest, enter into thy, your closet, and when thou, you hast shut the door, pray to the Father which is in secret... That's hw you pray, everywhere, by finding a quiet place...
First, I would like to say I hope your health is good and your family, I am not one to post my prayers, but I do pray for those who have asked for them. You have contributed much to this site and have grown through your posts.
I am thankful for the site and the people on it, I look at discussions as a learning opportunity if we are open to studying both views and if we do it with love and humility. I have grown in understanding from those who post here.
We did this once before and I understand that some consider it heresy not to believe in this doctrine and I understand that. I will be glad to answer your questions if it is for understanding and study, I do not want to offend or cause grief of any kind. I do not try to change anyone's mind; it is on us individually for our conscience.
To John 17:5. That's an interesting understanding of this verse. I'm sorry Ronald, I started writing out a very detailed response to what you had written, trying desperately to align your understanding with what I was reading in the verse, but unfortunately failed at every attempt to make sense of it. Honestly, I kept reading & re-reading what you presented, but couldn't reconstruct the verse to fit what you believe, and felt that I would have messed my response up badly making it nonsense and unintelligible. So apologies for that and I will have to leave it there & thanks for your time & trouble to give your explanation of that verse. Blessings.
The other point: Hebrews 5:8,9. Unfortunately, I don't share your understanding, as you wrote, "those sufferings brought him to a state of obedience". If Jesus had to learn how to obey, through His sufferings in life & leading to the Cross, it implies that He had times of disobedience at various stages in His Life. We know that Jesus was perfect & sinless; why should these life's lessons teach Him how to obey when He was sinless & always obeyed?
Rather, when we look at both verses, 'obedience' wasn't a trait He had to learn (as how we sinners have to learn how to behave & obey). But He always obeyed His Father, so that when He "became the author of eternal salvation", the suffering He had to endure caused Him to cleave to His Father even more in unflinching obedience to His Will & thus showed His full suitability as a Sacrifice for sin. Obedience was not something Jesus had to learn to do, rather to put His Obedience to a very practical test through sufferings & identifying with us in ours & we in Him ( Hebrews 4:15, Hebrews 2:10,11). So Jaz, you have stated your points clearly here. Thank you.
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
"The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever."
Psalmist Asaph labels Israel as "haters of the Lord." Jesus was aware of it. "They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty." This was foreknown and Jesus would quote this to forewarn his disciple. "(Ps.69:4; John 15:18-27;Ep.6:12). "He that hateth me hateth my Father also." Such hatred persisting in this world tells what St Paul warned as to what we are up against. Spiritual wickedness in high places is nothing personal but serving Satan as a proxy. How often we come across the apologists for Israel and bending backwards to justify the slaughter of the innocents in Gaza. Israel has done much worse than Herod in evil. It is all because these simple ignoramuses do not study the Word to their profit. Literal passages are enough for them. There was a cult group formerly known as Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. Citing Ezekiel they were all for Israel reinstating animal sacrifices. At surface they were to assert God cannot go wrong. Where Israel failed God will lead them to prove His ways are the best. Was it their reverence for unseen God or their hatred of the perfect sacrifice of the Son? Their will worship ,-touch not, taste not and see not was more enforced than abiding with Christ. This is how a dead fly like Israel has caused the pot of imposter churches stink.
"Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!/I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. "(Ps.81:13-14)
The Psalmist applies the time to the nation and not forever. "but their time should have endured for ever."
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High./But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
The three psalms of which this psalm falls as the central pillar is composed by Asaph. The v.1 is a perfect statement by the Spirit. "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." What qualifies as perfect speech. "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."(Ps.12:6) Everlasting covenant confers blessings to a believer called to be a saint. Unless he learns to be an overcomer which can only be through the grace of the most High 'ye shall die like men, and fall like on of the princes." where you fail all the seven days of the covenant are fallen out of your grasp.
With regards to the princes we have them named in the Ps.83. "For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head./They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones."(Ps.83:2-3)
What goes on in Gaza is a symptom of the spiritual wickedness from heavenly places directed against the saints, "thy hidden ones" and it shall be beginning of sorrows and at some point of time shall reach a critical mass."And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."( Luke 21:28). This is not our but the heathen out there stoking the conflict for their own ends have put their inroads to nations that have been careless in their friendships. It is thus the ungodly world has made pacts with 'gods of this world.' When God standeth in the congregation of the mighty' an horse is a vain thing and as the Psalm says, "An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength."(Ps.33:17). It is time that we quit like men and trust in our Lord Savior from getting entangled in the devil's wiles.
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Thank you and may God bless you!
Name is written this way and Jesus is written Iesus.
I think as you do that perhaps Momsage has a revised 1611 KJV. It still has the Old Elizabethan English, but some revision were made to the original version several times in the first hundred or so years after it was published. She may not know that hers is a revision, so is innocently insisting that her version is the original 1611 KJV. If hers is a revision as I explained, then I hope the Lord will show that this is so. If it is not a revision, then we have an impasse here and it may be best to move on to another thread for the sake of peace. God's blessings to you, Momsage and KayDee as the Spirit shows you all the way in this discussion.
I do not think that you are in any way promoting yourself here. You are following God being real about the yourself, your life, and your faith. Thank you for your sincerity, deep concern or others, the way you self-reflect, desiring to not think too highly of yourself than you ought. We all should pray to be like that as we are instructed to do so in Romans 12:3. We are to check ourselves to see that we are truly in the faith and to live by it.
Dear Richard, I will miss you in your absence, but will pray that God will lead you back to us here. You are important on this site as are everyone who God has led here. I am learning from you and other, I am also being instructed by the Holy Spirit on how I am to express myself in writing here according to the power of the Holy Spirit and the by discipline of Him and by the gifting He has so graciously bestowed on me to be able to read and write and understand what others say as we communicate with each other in love, truth, and restraint from thinking and saying things we think we know about another individual that only God can know.
All of us on here come from individual life experiences both as believers and when we were'nt; when we have been blessed in a church situation and when we have been harmed, misled, and mistreated; when we work through difficult situations with those in our families and among our friends with the tension between our love and concern for them and our greater love and commitment to God and to the truth of His Holy Word. We can1 always pray for the ability to sort of 'be in another's shoes' and gain understanding and compassion for others troubles. Amen
It seems the Lord's coming is very near and if He tarries a number of birth pangs to come to our nation as well as the world.
At present I will ask the Lord to give guidance to a possible alternate site or some new concept to intercept and destroy things that are aiming to bring down the site. The idea comes to mind to perhaps have a different sites for different regions; perhaps in the US and or other countries. Maybe a daily update without all the threads going back a decade would help?
I am as you may have seen expressed some concerns of late on topics that seem to be causing division among some longer standing individuals here. Answering with scripture always helps as a first response. I guess it is hard to determine where to draw the line but perhaps after several rebuttals that are showing hostility there should be a 3 strikes you're out; or maybe for a month or so that particular thread should be cut off.
Whatever happens I want to thank you guys for the latitude I have been given here and the opportunity to volunteer for counsel when needed although there was only one person you asked me to pray for in that situation. I have probably expressed to you before what I said today that I hope someone makes a concerted effort to respond to prayer requests as well as people sharing when prayer are answered by the Lord I guess you guys can have a prayer request of the day from churches; missionaries or world events as another idea I have.
God bless.
RIch P
Thanks you for pointing out this truth God has revealed in Scripture by the Son, and the Spirit of Truth.
This adds to my postings in a very good way. Those who believe that Jesus is indeed God and Man believe this fundamental truth of the one true faith passed down to the saints by the apostles. Those who do not believe that Jesus is God and Man are in error and believe and promote a different and false Jesus than what has been clearly revealed in Scripture when they say He is a created being, merely a human, earned his adoption and title of the Son of God at his conception, baptism, death, resurrection, ascension, or glorification as merely a human person.
It is important for Christians to profess the truth of the real Jesus revealed in Scripture by the Himself, the Father, and the holy Spirit, believe it deeply, teach it correctly, and defend this truth about Jesus being God and Man against every and all who believe, profess, promote, and teach the false Jesus who is only a human person or other creature created by the one solitary God. This false belief inevitable teaches that created beings can change their nature to come to share the One Divine Nature that only the three distinct Person existing in the Nature because their false Jesus did by adoption or reward or appointment by God for living the sinless life because he was indwelt by the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
Our God is so very great, transcendent in His Triunity of Persons and Oneness of Being, and His graciousness to reveal this mystery we are able to understand in part but not in totality. When we get to heaven we will behold the fullness of God in the God-Man Jesus, the only eternal Divine Son of the Father. Hallelujah! Praise to Him forever!
Giannis, when we get to heaven we will know who is right in their belief on this matter and who is in error, but all will learn so much more than this about the completely majestic, beautiful, unfathomable God who has called us.
In leaving an open door for comments; or others to take up a subject and run with it I hoped to avoid self centeredness. I had hoped my questioning would help me find some answers I hadn't considered as well as showing that I am human and don't have all the answers. There is always opportunity to respond to people's prayer requests which I could also focus on even exclusively instead.
I will leave this idea as well; in standing for the Lord one is in the minority and from personal experience recently can cost a friendship. There are some things we need to stand on and others that aren't as crucial. The Lord Himself through the Spirit should be the one who is bringing up situations; tugging on us and revealing through repeated situations what we must take a stand for. I think I should say that those on this site who take an opposing view aren't people we are seeing face to face and thus we need to be careful reading thoughts and intentions that may be contrary to what we think when someone has a different viewpoint. I say this for the sake of others who are struggling with health issues; family problems and other things that we have Agape love and compassion.
I have been through a lot and probably I have shared way too much over the past year in particular. I appreciate the support of those who have prayed for me. I am learning some things continuing on living with my parents and without those in my church praying for me as well and God's help I would have been toast by now. I am hoping people will share as was the case with one individual who was homeless that found a place shortly after I and another sister in Christ prayed he would find someplace to live. When prayers are answered please share it at this site.
I will conclude by saying my famous quote we are all going to be together forever so may as well start getting along now. If we are truly His that should be food for thought.
Later. Rich P
I also sense there is more and more bickering over sensitive topics that seems to be fomented by the enemy to steal our joy.
Some of that of course is inevitable in holding to scriptural doctrinal truths as best we understand it.
I don't want to just dump out ideas to point to myself but perhaps that is what people are indicating to me. Maybe I have to reassess if I have drifted in that direction. Hopefully some personal but anonymous details of the interactions and stories I have from my own personal experience and those in my churches that I have attended and Christian friends has helped somebody.
We are limited here ourselves with anonymity.
Things are accelerating rapidly. He is in control until the end of the Age. It seems prudent at this point to look at the approaching Tribulation and spend most of the time on this site delineating between the truth and the lies which are seemingly harder daily to differentiate. I won't elaborate here but there is increasing prophecies that seem to be coming to pass where the "Prophet" is assuming an individual is saved or going to be saved when it is clear that hasn't happened. We need to believe clearly the Word where it says that everyone eventually is going to worship the Beast whose name isn't written in the Book of Life. That is why I feel it is so important to bring home the importance of knowing we are hearing from the Holy Spirit and testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
I appreciate being given a platform here; and leave to others whatever they conclude. I can only say that I won't add anything to whatever I sense the Lord has shown me; and always want to back things up with scripture
Pt. 2
Jesus was not two Persons, a human Person and a Divine Person, or just a human Person. The Person of Jesus is only the Divine Son who has two natures, a mortal human nature who was created at the conception (incarnation) and an eternal divine nature that always existed intrinsically in the one unified Being of God as the Son of the Father.
The Incarnated Divine Son of God was named Jesus (Savior) Since He was God in human flesh, He could not sin, because the divine Personhood of Jesus could never sin and the human nature of Jesus was always subject to His Divine Nature.
Jesus lived the perfect human life that no other human could ever live. As God, He could do this. Not event he angels could do this because they are a created entity whose holiness and lack of sin is maintained by God as God's choice, but He did not keep all of the angels from sin, so it is always a biblical fact that angels are made capable of sinning. Jesus, as God was never capable of sinning. This is called Impeccability in theological terms.
If one merely human person could live a human life, he would be acceptable to God for being sinless and holy, but such a person could not make any other human acceptable to God. Only the righteousness of a sinless divine Person who lived a perfect human life as God incarnate could make any and all human persons acceptable to God by His sinlessness, sacrificial death, victorious resurrection accomplished by the power of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and His glorification as God and Man forever to be the righteousness of all who believe and trust Him as our Mediator and God's Mediator, reconciled the elect to the one Being of God.
( Col. 1:20-22; 1 Cor. 5:18: Eph. 2:20; Rom. 5:10) reconciled ( 1 Tim. 2:5) mediator (1 Cor, 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21
Jer. 23:6, 33:16) righeousness
First; I wasn't trying to give some sort of game plan to get through the Tribulation; just was attempting to foresee the evil that is to come as Proverbs 27:12 states which is ahead before the Rapture; if we hold to a PreTrib mentality. As to the subject of self defense or not; I would ask people to look realistically at scripture rather than having a one size fits all concept. ( Luke 22:36 as one example). If we must die as martyrs we must rely on the Spirit. I truly look up to those who are sold out enough that they are prepared to die at any time in their boldness witnessing; perhaps sharing what is inherent to all men who allow their old nature to rise up isn't helpful. I will once again appeal to the scriptures as Christ did with Peter in Matthew 26:33-34.
We also face an array of unknown variables. Just tonight there is news not necessarily in mainstream of 12 major ships of ours in the Mediterranean; as well as the largest oil refinery in Russia ablaze. When surprises happen I hope that most on this site at least are prepared; in the church at large I am doubtful.
I did stray from heavy scriptural references as I occasionally do on a topic. I have been blessed with being able to get into most subject matters that have been on my heart for decades in the last couple of years here. Perhaps I need to consider ending these posts permanently; but as with anything I don't like being hasty.
no mere human being ever could live a perfectly sinless life because every mere human being is corrupted by sin by their innate sinful nature that is present in them at conception. They are sinful before they are born. Even if a mere human being had the fullness of the Holy Spirit indwelling them, they would still not be able to live a sinless life because of this same biblical truth.
Jesus was not a mere human being, but God in the flesh: Emmanuel-God with us. Col. 2:9 says that the fullness of the Godhead whether referring to; the three persons of the one Being or the Divine Nature, or the one Divine Being; or all) Jesus was the divine Godhead revealed to mankind in the divine Person of Jesus in the Incarnation when the Divine Son became a human with a body and nature, but not with sinful nature. John 1:14; Hebrews 2L14; 4:15)
Jesus is the eternal divine Son of the Father in the intimate union of the Triunity of the Persons of the Godhead. Even when He was incarnated, He remained the God, since the essence and Being of God is shared equally and fully by all three Persons because all three are called God in Scripture, as I noted in my posts on God Is Spirit AND God is Son and Savior.
Phil 2:6 speaks that Jesus exists as God, but affirmed that His equality with God was not something He grasped from God or acquired and that it cannot happen in any way since God said that there has never been any other God formed before Him, or will there by after Him, nor at any time. Jesus was eternally God with the Father and Holy Spirit. But He humbled Himself to become a man so that He could carry out His work in the everlasting covenant between the Godhead that was determined before anything was created. He was not created, ever, as a created entity nor as a divine Person. In the incarnation, the Father created a human nature and body for the Divine Person, God the Son, and caused this Divine Son to be conceived in Mary and develop as a human.
Just to add.
If it were possible for a human being to live a sinless life just by having the Spirit indwelling in them (even without measure) then there would be no need for Jesus'sacrifice on the cross. God would just have filled us with His Spirit and everything would be OK. He could have done that from the very beginning, with Adam and Eve. Why sent Jesus on earth?
Part 2.
There's things in scripture we cannot understand in our natural state, just like we cannot produce fruit in our natural state.
However God's Spirit reveals truth that the spirit of this world rejects.
Here's one of many examples; John 1:1-3.
Verse 1 plainly states
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
( You can't add to that it is written directly, plainandsimple.)
You can only reject this truth, take away from it and attempt to redefine it.
However, by this verse and many others, by the Spirit of truth, we recieve it. (It's a plain and direct statement of fact.)
Likewise verse 2) "The same was in the BEGINNING WITH GOD. That's plainly stated!!
Likewise verse 3.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
You have to consider these verses and there's nothing needed to be added to magnify the meaning of these verses.
No one "By the Spirit of God" would take away what's so plainly stated.
Any other Christ represented is NOT Christ.
God bless.
Christ is not THE ONE GOD, but by INHERITANCE, is EQUAL with his Father, the one God."
I understand that Christ is not the Father (He is the Son of God), for there is only One God. But you state that it is by "Inheritance" that Jesus that holds 'Equality' with His Father God. If that was so, then it applies to His State while on Earth, doing the Will of His Father. What about His Life before His coming to Earth? For that is what this Scripture is pointing us to: Jesus' Form as He appeared to men and to His Equality as pertaining to His Father. Obviously, the word 'Form' can't describe His physical appearance, for how can anyone describe God's Form, rather to His Essence in Being & the Splendor, Holiness & Power He brings. Even though all this was evident in Jesus' Life, His Equality with God (i.e. His 'sameness' in Glory, Majesty, & Power) was something He had to put aside ("taking upon him the form of a servant") so that He could fulfil God's Will in Life & Death. He could not put aside something He did not have. Jesus, through His Humanity veiled His 'God-form' to clothe Himself with 'Man-form'.
So, my focus has been on Who Jesus really is when He came to Earth. Was He just a fresh/new creation of God to be sacrificed for mankind, or did He come forth from the Essence of God, as God, laying aside that Glory & Honor, to be made flesh, taking on the physical limited state of man so as to perform God's Loving Purposes for us? God could have easily 'snapped His Fingers' (as it were) & created a man to be sacrificed. But it is quite another thing when God's Love for us meant that He came Himself, in His Son, to lay down His Life for us. For only such a Sacrifice would be fully pay for our sins & redeem us to God. GBU.
Thanks for responding.
Part 1.
Your quote in response to me as follows;
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
See part 2 Jaz.
Thanks, sister, get back to you tomorrow, have a good night.
God bless,
RLW
And, as I stated it is to learn and understand about you and your views that I ask. We have discussed this topic before in how we disagree in some aspects. I do not wish to do that again. Only understand more why you say things as you do on topics being discussed here. Looking forward to your answers and learning more about you.
I kind of thought this would be your reply. Please know I respect your choice here. Yet in doing so, you will probably be misunderstood on this forum by many others. And that saddens me. I anticipate that others will continue to ask you to clarify your comments. Even though you say what you post is very clearly stated, it often is not. You may know in your mind what you mean, but the way you express it on here does not convey a clear meaning. I am not trying to criticize you, but only say that communicating to others is important. And in doing so, most people would want to do so in a clear and coherent way so others can follow our meaning and how we support it. Whatever you choose to do here is your freedom as it is mine to share in my way. So, be blessed and do not take offense of me here as I do not take offense at your reply that I am replying to.
Part 3
These other things would be God, not the God of Scripture.
With the doctrine of simplicity, His immutability is one aspect of His divine simplicity. James 1:17 speaks of this when he says that in God there is no shadow of turning. This means that there is no changing in Him and no variation or alteration or degree or greater or lesser of anything of His Being. This tells us that God is not made of parts, that He is unable to be anything than what He is eternally and He is perfect in every possible way to be perfect.
Divine simplicity also speaks of God actually Being what He reveals of Himself and also what we have yet to know of Hm. He is all that He describes Himself to be. he does not have attributes or perfections, He is these. For instance, the Scriptures tell us that God is I AM (IS) saying that He is existence. (EX, 3:14) He says that He is life, ( John 14:6) along with the truth and way. God is light ( I John 1:5. God is Spirit John (4:24): God says, I am merciful, ( Ex. 22:27). John 11:25 Jesus say He is the Resurrection and the Life. These are just some of the examples where God equates His attributes with who He is not what He has.
Another aspect of God's uniqueness is that He is the only God that exists; no other God will be made or come into existence, nor was there any other God who preceded Him See Is. 46:9. Is.44:6-8; Is. 43:10-Isaiah, who saw the LORD (Jesus) on the throne in heaven in Is. 6; and John 8:38-41. This uniqueness as the one and only true divine being is the very basis of our faith.
Another aspect of God's uniqueness is His oneness- He is a unified single God who exists as three distinct persons-the Father, the Son, and the hoy Spirit who all three share the divine nature equally, eternally, and fully. I will speak more of this in my next post on "God is a UNITY".
God's uniqueness sets Him apart from all else. There is no one like Him!
First, I would like to say I hope your health is good and your family, I am not one to post my prayers, but I do pray for those who have asked for them. You have contributed much to this site and have grown through your posts.
I am thankful for the site and the people on it, I look at discussions as a learning opportunity if we are open to studying both views and if we do it with love and humility. I have grown in understanding from those who post here.
We did this once before and I understand that some consider it heresy not to believe in this doctrine and I understand that. I will be glad to answer your questions if it is for understanding and study, I do not want to offend or cause grief of any kind. I do not try to change anyone's mind; it is on us individually for our conscience.
It will be tomorrow before I can answer.
God bless,
RLW