Moses. Who humbled him? God did. Why? Because he didn't humble himself. I am refering to the incident that Moses killed that Egyptian and afterwards went into the desert. Moses grew up knowing that he was the one who will free Israel. He was educated, powerful, had all the knowledge of palace and country affairs at that time, had friends/conections in the palace, everywhere, he knew that those 400 years in captivity were gone and the time Israel was going to be freed has finally arrived, he knew how miracusely became son of the daughter of pharaoh, so who else would set Israeletes free from Egypt but him? A man of power, a ruler? But he makes a bad move, kills that Egyptian and has to escape into the desert. Why? Because he acted foolishly himself believing that it was time to start acting, instead of waiting for God guiding him. So he went into the desert for 40 years. And in that desert him who was strong in speech and actions became "Oh my Lord, I can not speak properly, sent somebody else in my place". Those 40 years humbled him, how is it possible to keep the ability to speak properly when for 40 years the only thing you hear is "ba, ba"(in gr sheep make beh, beh with grk accent!)? And from there on Moses was always waiting for God to tell him what to do.
But In those 40 years that God's plan was postponed a whole generation of Israeletes spent their lives in horrible situations, with beatings and hanger and exhaustion and all that. Why? Because of Moeses thinking that he was capable of anything, instead putting his pride down and ask God for help and guidance. So is it good me to humble myself before God and avoid a lot of trouble or God being compeled to do so?
Take comfort from the fact that Jesus said " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
It is written that Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Mslchesidec.
Then as Levi was a Jew and Abraham is the father of the faithful both Jew and gentile then we are supposed to give tithes .
But not to give them to thieves, false prophets and self appointed Apostkes . Find a Bible believing church preaching the whole council of God and not a denomination portion of it .
They are few and far between but worth the effort to find .
That church of the book of acts is of a unity that is not common but which by the grace of God will come to for we are a prodigal church . It was they understood in very truth they were "all of one bread " that they then acted as they did which flowed from that lively understanding . It was not demanded of or imposed externally .
It is not tything either .
Those hirelings and false prophets and apostles who " make merchandise of Gods people" were foreseen long ago by Paul and John who would devour the flock . Their time is at hand .
The question to ask is why so many professing Christian's are taken in by them?
Firstly sorry for misunderstanding your post, I thought you said that men can not humble themselves.
I have a question. Why is there a difference between me humbling myself and God humbling me? It is the result that matters I think, not the process, nor who is doing it. I don't think that God wants people to be weak, but I think He wants us to know our limits, and know when we should stop acting ourselves and ask for help. He wishes us to consult Him not for His glory but for us to avoid disasters. But it is true that many times we can do nothing, especially in spiritual affairs, like producing a fruit or facing the devil with our own arms.
Example. If my 2 year son asks me for water then I will go to the kitchen and bring him a glass of water, but if my 12 year old son asks me for water then I will reply to him that he is able to do it himself, I will not get him water, unless I want to make him a favor. And when my son is 2, I am glad seeing him growing up, who wants to see his child staying a baby for ever? And when he growes up I am there to consult and help him, when needed.
About your question, just think of the prodigal son. When he left His father's house and run out of money, how was he humbled? By eating pig's food, and he couldn't even get that (figuratevely this is what the world offers to people, food for pigs). The harsh situation that he found himself in, compelled him to get humbled. Likewise when we disobey God and get ourselves in bad situations, then we give it a second thought before doing it again, so it the situation we come into that makes us humble ourselves.
The moon has no light of its own. Yet even in the darkest night when it is still shining it bares witness that the sun is still shining and that there is coming a perfect day .
God gave the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night .
It cannot do that unless it is seated with the sun in heavenly places and it has a right attitude towards the Sun and a right attitude towards the world .
Indeed Noah was a descendent of Adam ( as we all are ) but it was when Abraham was separated FROM his generation and finally separated into God did he become the father of the faithful .
But Abraham had two sons . Both were not Hebrew . But only the son of promise not the son of flesh of the bond woman.
When after the crucifixion and reports by some women that Jesus was risen from the dead .
Two disciples were walking from Jerusalem to Imaus in deep conversation about these things .
It is recorded " that Jesus Himself drew near "(Acts)
He "starting at Moses "began to show them in all the scriptures concerning Himself"
Jesus is in all the scriptures if you look for Him .
The first mention as always is in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden .
For after Adam had disobeyed God and sinned ,God in His great mercy and love gave them a covering of animal skins .
( for love covers a multitude of sin) but he also gave them a promise .
For if the sacrifice of an animal and a covering of sin had restored them why need of a promise?
" The seed of the woman " A woman has no seed ,it is the man which is why we are Mankind .
But God wishing to show that this one ("it") male ("he") child would not be of Adams seed spoke of the seed of the woman .
Who would bruise the serpents head ( fatal) but in the process would suffer ,who in turn would bruise his heel "
The gospel of Jesus Christ is first mentioned in the garden of Eden .
The first man recorded who put their faith in Him is Abel . Confirmed by Paul in Hebrews .
Who offered a lamb . Thus confessing his sin ,acknowledging the righteousness of God and putting his faith in the promise yet to come . Jesus ."The lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world".
A more accurate and biblical term would be" translated " the same as Enoch was in Genesis .
Even as Adam fell asleep and out of his body Hod created a bride for him .
So too through his death ,God is creating a Bride for the " last Adam"
A body out of a body . Who will meet the Lord in the air and go to the marriage feast in heaven .
Those who were found to be not ready and unrecognisable as the Bride will be left behind and though saved will,suffer loss as through fire .and proved through the great tribulation .
Jesus taught that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart he has already committed adultery .
The idea that a homosexual who does not the act but holds the desire in his heart is ok then is absurd .
The deep root cause of homosexuality is found in Romans . Men no keeping the knowledge of God in their minds .
At root that is the cause . From that root you have many branches of why .
Homosexuality is not a sickness to be cured of it is a sin to be repented of as any other .
Indeed we all have to come to a place where we not only repent of what we have done, but must also repent of what we are .Sinners .
The answer is the same for all .
"If any man be in Christ they are a new creation ,behold all old things have passed away and behold all things have become new"
"For if you have dies to sin how then can you live in it"?
A man may struggle as any man does with sin as Paul also in z Romans shows . But he also gives the answer " Thanks be unto zGod who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ .
No matter what man says you can be delivered from the power of that sin as any man can be delivered from any other sin .
Enoch walked with God and at some point ,God said it's quicker to go to my place than yours and "God took him "
He was translated from this world to the world to come .
It will be much the same at the second coming of the Lord . Where the Bride shall hear the voice " come up hither" and those who are alive will be changed " in a twinkling of an eye" "mortal shall put on immortality and corruption shall put on incorruption "
The foolish and unready will be saved " as through fire " though the great tribulation and martyred .
The unsaved will face a world totally corrupt with the antichrist with no restraint .
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom He predestined, those He also called, whom He called, those He justified, whom He justified, those He glorified." ( Rom 8:28-29) This verse shows us that the Godhead chose ahead of creation to redeem eternally a people for Himself. This verse reveals His plan of action for those who believe to bring them to glory.
I do not believe that God predestined some for salvation and others for damnation unconditionally (not by anything a person does or does not do), but I also believe that God does not predestine someone conditionally (by what a person will do). But I think that God predestines because He knows all things and works out everything according to His will and purpose. In His wisdom He chose to save those He draws to Himself and to supply all that is needed for anyone's salvation, that no one can boast of bringing themselves to be saved by anything they do. This is for the goal glorifying Himself for the benefit of all He has made, exercising His love thru mercy and grace upon all who have sinned (all humans) and for whom His Son sacrificed His life to pay the penalty and receive the fullness of God's wrath for sin to win us.
I believe that any and all people can be saved. That all who call upon the name of the Lord receive the salvation wrought for them in Christ. I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of every person who ever lived, not just for the elect. It is all-sufficient for the salvation of all and effaceable for all, but only appropriated by those who respond to the faith given to them through by the Holy Spirt to embrace what Jesus has provided.
I believe that God gives grace and a measure of faith to everyone, but some will act on this faith by embracing Jesus and HIs work for salvation and others will continually reject and turn against the grace and faith that God continually gives out.
Thank you Giannis I, too, agree that in Roman 9:22 is properly translated as fitted for destruction and it is not God doing the "fitting" nor the "hardening" spoken of in earlier verses of this chapter. The person, himself fits himself for destruction by continuing to refuse the offer of grace by the Holy Spirit to submit to God's will to believe the Gospel by faith which the Holy Spirit is happy to supply. One fits themselves for destruction by continuing to choose the sinful way rather than the good way laid out by God and hating God instead of loving Him.
I also believe that predestine does not refer to God predetermining some to be saved and others to be damned, but that God in His foreknowledge knew that man would fall by sin and that the plan of redemption was chosen prior to the fall and in His sovereignty predestined that any who believe the Gospel will be saved, adopted as children of God ( Eph. 1:5), justified and then glorified. Predestination refers to the end result of those who are chosen, not the choosing. It speaks of God pre-ordaining that all who come to faith in Jesus will receive all that salvation affords them through Christ. It is determining that Jesus would be the Savior by which sinful men will receive redemption, He being the Elect One of God and all who are in Christ are subsequently the elect.
Being chosen speaks of God selecting out people for His kingdom of salvation and glory. God has chose persons and predestined these person to something/for His purpose i.e for us to be "holy and without blame before Him in love" Eph. 1:4
Election has to do with being selected and predestination has to do with what we have been selected for, to be blessed "according to His purpose and grace". ( 1 Tim. 1:8-9)
God's foreknowledge in the context of election doesn't mean that He looked ahead to see what we will do and then reacting for He knows all things that will ever be and happen at once. His foreknowledge means He has always known His elect.
The grk for "evidence" is "eleghos". The verb of this word means to check things, to observe if they are OK, observe how they are, their condition... ( A guard checks/observes/(grk elegchei) the surroundings of his post) So the verse says that "faith is the existence (means it brings into existence) things we hope for, checking/observing things we don't see" So if hope is accompanied with faith that God will answer then God will listen and make real what we ask from Him. With faith we observe (so we know) things we don't see, like say the spiritual world, the begining and the future of mankind, our salvation, etc. But whether we use that definition or the KJB it doesn't make any difference really, the outcome is still the same.
I don't know Hebrew, and to be honest I rarely look for the actual meaning of Hebr words, maybe sometimes when I want to compare the Masoritic text with the Septuagint text of the Old Testament. I believe like you that one doesn't need to know grk or hebr., (who actually has the courage to do so) to know the Bible (if that was the case someone would have definetely given a second thought to believe in God), but sometimes when we want to clarify a verse a bit more than it reads (if needed), then it is useful to have a grk or hebr dictionary, on the internet also there is a lot of onformation and one can compare those dictionaries together.
When I first joined this site (never before joined an Eng speaking site) I myself was very surprised to find out that people many times refer to the grk, or have some slogan/motto grk words like "agape" ("love" is as good).
Vessels "fitted" for distruction? The "grk" for fitted is "katartismena", it actually means "trained"(used for education purposes). "Trained" by whom? By themselves, by devil, but not by God. Those vessels with their own free will have allowed devil or the sinful world or their own deceived heart to "train/educate" them for distruction. I think we agree on those, but we can also see that words like "predestinated, predestined" or "fitted" may lead to a wrong conclusion. I would think that words like "determined, dedicated, intended" as well as "trained/educated" are more close to the proper meaning. Maybe "destined" is not the proper word since it correlates with "destiny" (here you may be right), not with "destination" which I had in mind. So sorry for the misunderstanding.
About translations now. A problem when translating from any language to any other is often the different expresions used for the same things. So sometimes if a text is translated exactly word by word, say from Eng. to grk., it may not be understood since grk doen't use the same expressions. So a translator has to decide whether to translate a passage exactly knowing that the translation may confuse the reader or decide to interprete it to make it have the original meaning. But in this case the translation is "free" and the outcome depends on the beliefs or thoughts or intentions of the translator. Different translators may interprete the same expression in different ways.
I find that some verses in eng. are not very accurate like that definition of faith in Hebr. "faith is the substance of things we hope for, evidence of things not seen" The grk for "substance" is "hypostasis". If substance means something like a chemical substance or the nature of something, what it consists of, then this is not what the grk says. Hypostasis in this verse means "existence", the "being" of something. And this is how I read it in grk Bibles.
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
(I am not English but I think there is a diference between "predestinate" and "predestine"). The way I understand "predestinate" is that someone has already chosen/separated someone else for something specific (in our conversation this is salvation) according to their requirements or as they wish/like. Then in the above verse it also says "according to his good pleasure of his will". So often believers think that God has chosen some people for salvation, as He likes (the one He wishes to be saved), so no matter what I do this is fixed anyway by God. Is that right? Actually it is right since the desire/Will of God is ALL people to be saved. But also God knows who is going to believe and so He has already separated them for Himself. But He doesn't "fix it", simply He knows beforehand who (using their own free will) will eventually accept Jesus in their heart. And often He assists future believers to believe in Him (like Paul on his way to Damascus). But this belief is not in all believers. Often the above verse is combined with Romans 10:14-24. E.g. Verse 15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Verses 20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
So the conclusion is often that God shaped/made/formed some people for destruction and some not for it.
Verse 22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
If you accepted Christ at one time, but back slid; would you have to have demons cast out upon returning to Christ? It's said that it is more demons when you backside?
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.
2 Corinthians 9:7..."Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Tithes was an OT law to ONLY the Levitical priesthood. Jesus, as you know, was the fulfilling of the law. End changed a few things in the NT. When he was here, the tithing was in effect. But after him, it wasn't.
I'm sure there are those who will disagree and that's fine. But if you are "required" to give, how "cheerful" is that? How could that NOT be of "necessity"? How can one "purpose" in his heart, if he/she is "compelled" to give 10%? Jesus brought mercy and grace. The Law was force.
I do believe in giving. I think God works in each person's heart as to how, when, which cause, how much, etc. I would say it's a personal thing between a person and God. He doesn't "need" our money. It's the point of helping and doing it cheerfully to bless. We are a vessel that should flow. We get, we give, we receive, repeat.
If you are referring to Psalm 138:8, I would say this is talking about God in His infinite wisdom perfecting our lives.
Romans 8:28 says, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
The word good used in this verse is the word AGATHOS, meaning spiritual good. Human good is KALOS. Spiritual good is AGATHOS.
That makes a big difference because if I'm looking at it religiously, (humanly), and on a horizontal physical plain, when it says "all thing work together for good," that means in the human, God's going to work things out good for me in the human and in the flesh.
No, this is spiritual good. Also, please notice that it doesn't say all things are good. It says that all things are going to be worked out for the good.
What's good and bad in the human, that's our judgment system. To God, everything is good because He's doing everything. And when we have things "go wrong," in God's vocabulary, that's not even in there. We might say, "Lord, things are going wrong." But to Him everything is going right.
We know that all things work together for good, and look at the two descriptions of the people for whom everything is working out for the good. It is to those who love God, and to those who are called according to His purpose.
Why? Because everything's going to work out according to the will of God, so that when I do pray for the Lord's will to be done, I can know because this is a promise right from God, that all things work together for the good. It's because He's working it out in our lives. He's perfecting us!
Hi again Jesse.
Lets see an example of God humbling somebody.
Moses. Who humbled him? God did. Why? Because he didn't humble himself. I am refering to the incident that Moses killed that Egyptian and afterwards went into the desert. Moses grew up knowing that he was the one who will free Israel. He was educated, powerful, had all the knowledge of palace and country affairs at that time, had friends/conections in the palace, everywhere, he knew that those 400 years in captivity were gone and the time Israel was going to be freed has finally arrived, he knew how miracusely became son of the daughter of pharaoh, so who else would set Israeletes free from Egypt but him? A man of power, a ruler? But he makes a bad move, kills that Egyptian and has to escape into the desert. Why? Because he acted foolishly himself believing that it was time to start acting, instead of waiting for God guiding him. So he went into the desert for 40 years. And in that desert him who was strong in speech and actions became "Oh my Lord, I can not speak properly, sent somebody else in my place". Those 40 years humbled him, how is it possible to keep the ability to speak properly when for 40 years the only thing you hear is "ba, ba"(in gr sheep make beh, beh with grk accent!)? And from there on Moses was always waiting for God to tell him what to do.
But In those 40 years that God's plan was postponed a whole generation of Israeletes spent their lives in horrible situations, with beatings and hanger and exhaustion and all that. Why? Because of Moeses thinking that he was capable of anything, instead putting his pride down and ask God for help and guidance. So is it good me to humble myself before God and avoid a lot of trouble or God being compeled to do so?
Spiritual reality and religion do not mix .
If you do it is the spiritual reality that is lost for you have married contrary to the will of God .
How can two walk together unless they agree ?
In marrying them what are you agreeing to ?
What people actually want is to find another ' life' not of God .
Which willl relieve them of their responsibility towards God .
and are not then answerable to God .
They are also confessing when they seek life in outer space that they don't have life. For if they did why would they seek it?
In truth " they who have not the Son have not even seen life " yet .
For outside of Christ we are dead in trespasses and in sin .
I care not how ' detailed' his experiences he says he has . People have had false experiences almost from the beginning .
Religious and otherwise .
An immaculate conception is something that dazzles the imagination but blinds mens mind to the truth .
It is written that Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Mslchesidec.
Then as Levi was a Jew and Abraham is the father of the faithful both Jew and gentile then we are supposed to give tithes .
But not to give them to thieves, false prophets and self appointed Apostkes . Find a Bible believing church preaching the whole council of God and not a denomination portion of it .
They are few and far between but worth the effort to find .
That church of the book of acts is of a unity that is not common but which by the grace of God will come to for we are a prodigal church . It was they understood in very truth they were "all of one bread " that they then acted as they did which flowed from that lively understanding . It was not demanded of or imposed externally .
It is not tything either .
Those hirelings and false prophets and apostles who " make merchandise of Gods people" were foreseen long ago by Paul and John who would devour the flock . Their time is at hand .
The question to ask is why so many professing Christian's are taken in by them?
GB
Firstly sorry for misunderstanding your post, I thought you said that men can not humble themselves.
I have a question. Why is there a difference between me humbling myself and God humbling me? It is the result that matters I think, not the process, nor who is doing it. I don't think that God wants people to be weak, but I think He wants us to know our limits, and know when we should stop acting ourselves and ask for help. He wishes us to consult Him not for His glory but for us to avoid disasters. But it is true that many times we can do nothing, especially in spiritual affairs, like producing a fruit or facing the devil with our own arms.
Example. If my 2 year son asks me for water then I will go to the kitchen and bring him a glass of water, but if my 12 year old son asks me for water then I will reply to him that he is able to do it himself, I will not get him water, unless I want to make him a favor. And when my son is 2, I am glad seeing him growing up, who wants to see his child staying a baby for ever? And when he growes up I am there to consult and help him, when needed.
About your question, just think of the prodigal son. When he left His father's house and run out of money, how was he humbled? By eating pig's food, and he couldn't even get that (figuratevely this is what the world offers to people, food for pigs). The harsh situation that he found himself in, compelled him to get humbled. Likewise when we disobey God and get ourselves in bad situations, then we give it a second thought before doing it again, so it the situation we come into that makes us humble ourselves.
GBU
God gave the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night .
It cannot do that unless it is seated with the sun in heavenly places and it has a right attitude towards the Sun and a right attitude towards the world .
Indeed Noah was a descendent of Adam ( as we all are ) but it was when Abraham was separated FROM his generation and finally separated into God did he become the father of the faithful .
But Abraham had two sons . Both were not Hebrew . But only the son of promise not the son of flesh of the bond woman.
Two disciples were walking from Jerusalem to Imaus in deep conversation about these things .
It is recorded " that Jesus Himself drew near "(Acts)
He "starting at Moses "began to show them in all the scriptures concerning Himself"
Jesus is in all the scriptures if you look for Him .
The first mention as always is in the book of Genesis in the garden of Eden .
For after Adam had disobeyed God and sinned ,God in His great mercy and love gave them a covering of animal skins .
( for love covers a multitude of sin) but he also gave them a promise .
For if the sacrifice of an animal and a covering of sin had restored them why need of a promise?
" The seed of the woman " A woman has no seed ,it is the man which is why we are Mankind .
But God wishing to show that this one ("it") male ("he") child would not be of Adams seed spoke of the seed of the woman .
Who would bruise the serpents head ( fatal) but in the process would suffer ,who in turn would bruise his heel "
The gospel of Jesus Christ is first mentioned in the garden of Eden .
The first man recorded who put their faith in Him is Abel . Confirmed by Paul in Hebrews .
Who offered a lamb . Thus confessing his sin ,acknowledging the righteousness of God and putting his faith in the promise yet to come . Jesus ."The lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world".
Even as Adam fell asleep and out of his body Hod created a bride for him .
So too through his death ,God is creating a Bride for the " last Adam"
A body out of a body . Who will meet the Lord in the air and go to the marriage feast in heaven .
Those who were found to be not ready and unrecognisable as the Bride will be left behind and though saved will,suffer loss as through fire .and proved through the great tribulation .
GB
The idea that a homosexual who does not the act but holds the desire in his heart is ok then is absurd .
The deep root cause of homosexuality is found in Romans . Men no keeping the knowledge of God in their minds .
At root that is the cause . From that root you have many branches of why .
Homosexuality is not a sickness to be cured of it is a sin to be repented of as any other .
Indeed we all have to come to a place where we not only repent of what we have done, but must also repent of what we are .Sinners .
The answer is the same for all .
"If any man be in Christ they are a new creation ,behold all old things have passed away and behold all things have become new"
"For if you have dies to sin how then can you live in it"?
A man may struggle as any man does with sin as Paul also in z Romans shows . But he also gives the answer " Thanks be unto zGod who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ .
No matter what man says you can be delivered from the power of that sin as any man can be delivered from any other sin .
Which was called heaven . This is not the same " Heaven " of chapter 1:1 . For verse 2 is only speaking of the "earth "
Initially there was a ' sea' above the firmament and below it but those waters broke come the flood .
There is but clouds above the firmament now . For before the flood " it did not rain upon the earth "
Thus this firmament he called " heaven" you have 1 heaven where the birds fly .
You have another ' heaven' where the stars are .For after verse 2 " He made the stars also".
Which is heaven number 2 .
Then you have the first heaven of Genesis 1:1 . " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth .
It was not heaven that was in darkness but the earth .
For that heaven needs no sun or moon for zGod is the light there of.
Thus we have 3 heavens.
Not to be confused with Genesis 2 those heavens are the two of " earth "
The third heaven of gen 1"1 is the one Paul speaks of as someone going to "the third heaven" of. Which it was "not lawful to speak of ,"
GB
He was translated from this world to the world to come .
It will be much the same at the second coming of the Lord . Where the Bride shall hear the voice " come up hither" and those who are alive will be changed " in a twinkling of an eye" "mortal shall put on immortality and corruption shall put on incorruption "
The foolish and unready will be saved " as through fire " though the great tribulation and martyred .
The unsaved will face a world totally corrupt with the antichrist with no restraint .
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom He predestined, those He also called, whom He called, those He justified, whom He justified, those He glorified." ( Rom 8:28-29) This verse shows us that the Godhead chose ahead of creation to redeem eternally a people for Himself. This verse reveals His plan of action for those who believe to bring them to glory.
I do not believe that God predestined some for salvation and others for damnation unconditionally (not by anything a person does or does not do), but I also believe that God does not predestine someone conditionally (by what a person will do). But I think that God predestines because He knows all things and works out everything according to His will and purpose. In His wisdom He chose to save those He draws to Himself and to supply all that is needed for anyone's salvation, that no one can boast of bringing themselves to be saved by anything they do. This is for the goal glorifying Himself for the benefit of all He has made, exercising His love thru mercy and grace upon all who have sinned (all humans) and for whom His Son sacrificed His life to pay the penalty and receive the fullness of God's wrath for sin to win us.
I believe that any and all people can be saved. That all who call upon the name of the Lord receive the salvation wrought for them in Christ. I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of every person who ever lived, not just for the elect. It is all-sufficient for the salvation of all and effaceable for all, but only appropriated by those who respond to the faith given to them through by the Holy Spirt to embrace what Jesus has provided.
I believe that God gives grace and a measure of faith to everyone, but some will act on this faith by embracing Jesus and HIs work for salvation and others will continually reject and turn against the grace and faith that God continually gives out.
I agree.
GB
I also believe that predestine does not refer to God predetermining some to be saved and others to be damned, but that God in His foreknowledge knew that man would fall by sin and that the plan of redemption was chosen prior to the fall and in His sovereignty predestined that any who believe the Gospel will be saved, adopted as children of God ( Eph. 1:5), justified and then glorified. Predestination refers to the end result of those who are chosen, not the choosing. It speaks of God pre-ordaining that all who come to faith in Jesus will receive all that salvation affords them through Christ. It is determining that Jesus would be the Savior by which sinful men will receive redemption, He being the Elect One of God and all who are in Christ are subsequently the elect.
Being chosen speaks of God selecting out people for His kingdom of salvation and glory. God has chose persons and predestined these person to something/for His purpose i.e for us to be "holy and without blame before Him in love" Eph. 1:4
Election has to do with being selected and predestination has to do with what we have been selected for, to be blessed "according to His purpose and grace". ( 1 Tim. 1:8-9)
God's foreknowledge in the context of election doesn't mean that He looked ahead to see what we will do and then reacting for He knows all things that will ever be and happen at once. His foreknowledge means He has always known His elect.
The grk for "evidence" is "eleghos". The verb of this word means to check things, to observe if they are OK, observe how they are, their condition... ( A guard checks/observes/(grk elegchei) the surroundings of his post) So the verse says that "faith is the existence (means it brings into existence) things we hope for, checking/observing things we don't see" So if hope is accompanied with faith that God will answer then God will listen and make real what we ask from Him. With faith we observe (so we know) things we don't see, like say the spiritual world, the begining and the future of mankind, our salvation, etc. But whether we use that definition or the KJB it doesn't make any difference really, the outcome is still the same.
I don't know Hebrew, and to be honest I rarely look for the actual meaning of Hebr words, maybe sometimes when I want to compare the Masoritic text with the Septuagint text of the Old Testament. I believe like you that one doesn't need to know grk or hebr., (who actually has the courage to do so) to know the Bible (if that was the case someone would have definetely given a second thought to believe in God), but sometimes when we want to clarify a verse a bit more than it reads (if needed), then it is useful to have a grk or hebr dictionary, on the internet also there is a lot of onformation and one can compare those dictionaries together.
When I first joined this site (never before joined an Eng speaking site) I myself was very surprised to find out that people many times refer to the grk, or have some slogan/motto grk words like "agape" ("love" is as good).
Have a blessed night.
Vessels "fitted" for distruction? The "grk" for fitted is "katartismena", it actually means "trained"(used for education purposes). "Trained" by whom? By themselves, by devil, but not by God. Those vessels with their own free will have allowed devil or the sinful world or their own deceived heart to "train/educate" them for distruction. I think we agree on those, but we can also see that words like "predestinated, predestined" or "fitted" may lead to a wrong conclusion. I would think that words like "determined, dedicated, intended" as well as "trained/educated" are more close to the proper meaning. Maybe "destined" is not the proper word since it correlates with "destiny" (here you may be right), not with "destination" which I had in mind. So sorry for the misunderstanding.
About translations now. A problem when translating from any language to any other is often the different expresions used for the same things. So sometimes if a text is translated exactly word by word, say from Eng. to grk., it may not be understood since grk doen't use the same expressions. So a translator has to decide whether to translate a passage exactly knowing that the translation may confuse the reader or decide to interprete it to make it have the original meaning. But in this case the translation is "free" and the outcome depends on the beliefs or thoughts or intentions of the translator. Different translators may interprete the same expression in different ways.
I find that some verses in eng. are not very accurate like that definition of faith in Hebr. "faith is the substance of things we hope for, evidence of things not seen" The grk for "substance" is "hypostasis". If substance means something like a chemical substance or the nature of something, what it consists of, then this is not what the grk says. Hypostasis in this verse means "existence", the "being" of something. And this is how I read it in grk Bibles.
Hi Gerald
Lets go back to Ephesians 1:5
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
(I am not English but I think there is a diference between "predestinate" and "predestine"). The way I understand "predestinate" is that someone has already chosen/separated someone else for something specific (in our conversation this is salvation) according to their requirements or as they wish/like. Then in the above verse it also says "according to his good pleasure of his will". So often believers think that God has chosen some people for salvation, as He likes (the one He wishes to be saved), so no matter what I do this is fixed anyway by God. Is that right? Actually it is right since the desire/Will of God is ALL people to be saved. But also God knows who is going to believe and so He has already separated them for Himself. But He doesn't "fix it", simply He knows beforehand who (using their own free will) will eventually accept Jesus in their heart. And often He assists future believers to believe in Him (like Paul on his way to Damascus). But this belief is not in all believers. Often the above verse is combined with Romans 10:14-24. E.g. Verse 15, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Verses 20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
So the conclusion is often that God shaped/made/formed some people for destruction and some not for it.
Verse 22, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
Gos bless you.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You in the name of Jesus today and ask that You will bring Robert through this surgery with success and a full recovery. We as that You keep Robert safe and sound during and after this surgery without complications or any downturns in his recovery. We ask You Father, to relieve any pain Robert has post-surgery and that the problem that led to needing surgery is completely resolved. Amen.
Tithes was an OT law to ONLY the Levitical priesthood. Jesus, as you know, was the fulfilling of the law. End changed a few things in the NT. When he was here, the tithing was in effect. But after him, it wasn't.
I'm sure there are those who will disagree and that's fine. But if you are "required" to give, how "cheerful" is that? How could that NOT be of "necessity"? How can one "purpose" in his heart, if he/she is "compelled" to give 10%? Jesus brought mercy and grace. The Law was force.
I do believe in giving. I think God works in each person's heart as to how, when, which cause, how much, etc. I would say it's a personal thing between a person and God. He doesn't "need" our money. It's the point of helping and doing it cheerfully to bless. We are a vessel that should flow. We get, we give, we receive, repeat.
If you are referring to Psalm 138:8, I would say this is talking about God in His infinite wisdom perfecting our lives.
Romans 8:28 says, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
The word good used in this verse is the word AGATHOS, meaning spiritual good. Human good is KALOS. Spiritual good is AGATHOS.
That makes a big difference because if I'm looking at it religiously, (humanly), and on a horizontal physical plain, when it says "all thing work together for good," that means in the human, God's going to work things out good for me in the human and in the flesh.
No, this is spiritual good. Also, please notice that it doesn't say all things are good. It says that all things are going to be worked out for the good.
What's good and bad in the human, that's our judgment system. To God, everything is good because He's doing everything. And when we have things "go wrong," in God's vocabulary, that's not even in there. We might say, "Lord, things are going wrong." But to Him everything is going right.
We know that all things work together for good, and look at the two descriptions of the people for whom everything is working out for the good. It is to those who love God, and to those who are called according to His purpose.
Why? Because everything's going to work out according to the will of God, so that when I do pray for the Lord's will to be done, I can know because this is a promise right from God, that all things work together for the good. It's because He's working it out in our lives. He's perfecting us!