c. I understand that 2 Peter 1:19-21 speaks of the prophetical Word that was given in the past & given to the Apostle John, for the future.
d. With Revelation 22:7: this blessing from the Lord Jesus is qualified by Revelation 22:18,19, referring to the Book of the Revelation and not the KJV.
e. 2 Peter 1:21: "prophecy came not in old time": I believe it speaks of the first prophetical Word given by God in the OT & not referring to the KJV.
So clearly, we do have differences of opinion & understanding of the Scriptures & though I hold the KJV in the highest esteem as the best translation we have from the originals & use nothing else, I don't share your conviction that it fully reflects the original spoken Word. There has to be differences, as with any translation work from one language to another, and I don't believe that the Holy Spirit's involvement would do any more than was done in this work. As said earlier, it would be better still if we all read the original languages, and even then, would there be no disputes between believers?
Another: Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", where the Heb. 'hassa-mayim' is in the plural. Now it's interesting that in Genesis 2:1,4, the KJV uses the same Hebrew plural word as 'heavens' - but not in Genesis 1:1. Maybe small errors, but errors nonetheless. And there are many more. So how then do we classify the KJV as error-free, when even some differences are seen from the original? As earlier stated, I don't believe that the 'preservation of God's Word' extends altogether to translations, but the Word that was spoken & delivered which cannot be altered & that Word cannot disappear or be annulled even if man wilfully or ignorantly changes that Word. I don't think that the Spirit's enabling to the KJV translators, compels that accuracy to the point that we're discussing here; rather, the translators considered everything available, finding the best most reliable texts in the Textus Receptus, which weren't giving problems & conflicts as the other 'older' MS were giving, using their knowledge of languages & abilities to deal with transferring of words & ideas into the English language & continual checking & re-checking of their work - all this with the Spirit's help, to produce the best translation we can get in our language.
b. Psalm 10:5, "his ways are always grievous." Where the NIV & most other versions state, 'prosperous, or succeed'. I've spent much time over this one, & unfortunately haven't come to any clear conclusion. The Hebrew word used is 'chuwl, pr. khool', & this is variously translated as 'to twist, writhe in pain, to dance, to whirl': a mish-mash of definitions in my opinion. I guess a Hebrew reader might pick up on that one, which maybe a reason why most translations go for 'prosperous', whereas the KJV & Douay-Rheims, for 'grievous, filthy'.
Ecclesiastes 8:10. To this verse, the Hebrew is clear, that the KJV, NASB, & some others attest to. So, I believe the NIV is incorrect here.
Thanks Jimbob, you've presented some interesting information, which I will begin with from your first page.
a. the question of preservation of God's Word. Is the Bible telling us (as in Psalm 12:6,7) that God's Word will remain untouched, unchanged, unadulterated forever? Or, are the Words of God, throughout the OT & NT, given as utterly pure & reliable from the Mouth of God to his servants the prophets, to deliver to God's people? And this Word given will abide forever, even to its fulfilment - nothing, not even one jot or tittle can be changed from what God has decreed & will perform.
Then we come to the recording of that Word, first by those who wrote & passed them onto Israel. We then get the Septuagint (the Hebrew OT translated into Greek for the benefit of the Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt). Other translations developed throughout the centuries. Can we confidently state that God would have protected His Word, first given to Israel, throughout those translations? We know for a fact that there are errors (minor & major) in all the translations we have available to us. You have listed a couple (which I'll come to later), & we can't forget that even in the KJV, queries can be raised, such Deuteronomy 8:9, "a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass." We know that brass cannot be dug out of the ground; copper is found in the earth, from which bronze is produced (a name given for a variety of copper alloys); as also for 'brass', a combination of copper & zinc. Why then did the KJV translators use 'brass', instead of 'copper' (Heb: 'nechosheth')? Were they thinking of the final product, but shouldn't they translate it as given?
Dear Heavenly Father, bring peace and comfort to Marvin tonight. Assure him of Your unfailing love and powerful grace to bring him safely into his heavenly home with You forever. Give him relief from pain and help him to trust You through this most difficult time in his life. Help Marvin's family during this time. Give them time with Marvin to bless him in his last days, reminding him of Your salvation in Your Son, Jesus. May the whole family be unified and graced with strength and love. Amen.
I agree with Brother Chris, it's hard to come up with any scripture that is conclusive.
However I would like to present a theory
I Genesis 6:9 it says;
These are the generations of Noah: NOAH WAS A JUST MAN AND "PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS", and Noah walked with God.
This came right before verses 4-5 when he said vs 4-"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when THE SONS OF GOD CAME IN UNTO THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN, ( AND THEY BARE CHILDREN TO THEM ), the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
( Verse 4 the women bare children to the Giants, "No particular line as shown in Genesis6:2." This includes daughters of Seth. )
LOOK AT VERSE 5 AT WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE OUTCOME.
vs 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Vs 6. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
There is two things to note about Noah in these next 3 verses,
Why was he chosen? Because he was sinless? I don't think so, Vs 8 says Noah found "GRACE" in the eyes of the LORD. "GRACE is unmerited favor." Vs 9 says he was a just man. "We're justified by faith"
Genesis 6:7-9.
I believe Noah was justified the same way Abel was. "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain," Hebrews 11:4.
So that brings us to a phrase in verse 9. Noah was "PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS"
If you read Genesis 6:2-11 on through it seems as though Man had 2 issues. They didn't find grace in the Lords eyes because of lack of faith and there were those whos Genealogy was contaminated. "Perhaps by the Son's of God.
We don't know if Shem, Ham, and Japheth wives were or not. Nor do we know about Noah's wife.
JRR God created man on the sixth day. Gen.1:27,28,31, 27. So God (created) man in his own image, in the image of God (created) he him; male and female (created) he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the ((sixth day)). (God created the male and female on the sixth day) Gen.2:1-2, 1. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the hosts of them. 2. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all the work which he had made. (God rested on the seventh day, this is verse 1 and 2 of Gen. Ch.2. Here is verse 5 from this same Ch. 2.) Gen. 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, ((and there was not a man to till the ground)). (And there was not a man to till the ground, this is AFTER God ((created)) male and female on the sixth day, and AFTER God rested on the seventh day.) Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God ((formed)) man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (God ((formed)) Adam from the dust of the ground AFTER He ((created)) male and female on the sixth day, and AFTER He rested on the seventh day. The sixth day male and female He ((created)) was all the different races on the earth. The man He ((formed)) from the dust of the ground was the bloodline that Jesus Christ would come through! Gen.7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in. He took two flesh of all races!!
Ok, thanks for confirming. I think this question is an absolutist question that must be this or that. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Another example of this is would you rather wear glasses or eat a banana?
Did you come up with the question or did someone else? If you did, can you be more specific what you're wanting to understand? What exactly about the Bible are you wanting to learn? And what about the holy spirit are you wanting to learn? Are you currently reading the Bible and are you a Christian?
In Genesis, God said Let Us Create Man in Our Own Image. All Things we're Created by God for His Pleasure. So Who is Us ? It's the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. In Matthew 3 :: When John the Baptist Baptized Jesus , The Son of God . The Bible says The Holy Ghost like in Acts 2 as Cloven Toungues of Fire is Literally Visible. And He , The Holy Ghost Descends on Jesus like a Dove. As this is Occurring, The Father Speaks from Heaven and says,, This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am Well Pleased. It's Impossible to Argue but Yet People will that All 3 Members of The Godhead are Present. And Each 1 is Completely Separate from the Other. Why is that ? Because They are 3 Separate in the Godhead , but Each is God. I had a Jesus Only Doctrine tell Me one Time when I Brought these Scriptures to His Attention. His Response was " Don't You think God could Stand on Earth and Talk to Himself from Heaven.. " And I said " Sure He could, but why would God Use Trickery and Deception. When He is not a Man to Lie or Repent. " I have never Understood the Conflict in Something that is a ABC Type Thing, a Fundamental to Learn Teaching. Why Man has went back and Forth, Wrote Books, Formed Entire Doctrines over Scripture a Child could Grasp. None of this is going to Disqualify Anyone from Heaven. But why are We Straining at Gnats and Swallowing Camels. Jesus is Coming like a Thief in the Night. But there is Good News, So We Must Always Remember that All Who Call Upon The Name of The Lord Shall be Saved. Amen.
Hi JRR. That of course, is a good question, to which no conclusive reply can be given; just as many other aspects of the Bible that provide no certain understanding because of lack of information.
As examples, we know what Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33 tell us. The pre-flood nephilim are described as the product of the union of the sons of God with the daughters of men. We can choose to read this as 'every offspring that they had, produced giant-like men (& women)'. Could they also have produced more 'normal' sized offspring? We're not told - only an assumption & probably not a far-fetched one at that.
Then we see nephilim appear post-flood. We can't deny this reality because the Word gives it to us, so there must be an answer. But whatever the correct answer, it would be wrong to throw out or amend Scriptures such as Genesis 7:7 & 1 Peter 3:20 which tell us that only eight souls (of human-kind) were saved, to the destruction of all other humans. Therefore, based on this Truth, we could come up with opinions, such as, could the sons of God (maybe seen as the line of Shem, and previously, written of Seth), also inter-mixed with the daughters of men (maybe products of Ham & Japheth, & previously, of Cain), & produced giant offspring? So, the mention of giants anywhere in the Bible should not denote that giants were evil people because of their size, but that is how they grew, maybe arising from aberrations (read, birth defect), as the descendants of their first fathers grew in number & inter-mixed. Obviously, not every birth produced giants, but there were many in those days, as there are even some today.
So really, we are not given definitive answers, & even what I've given as a possibility, remains only that. But I think we can be certain, if the Bible says that all humans were destroyed because of their gross sins, then we must accept that as fact. As well, the Anakim were not judged as the old world was - giantism was never a sin.
if paul says the letters kill but the spirit gives life, why are we still reading the scriptures? You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.
No, this is not me. I'm sorry if someone is trying to push their opinions on the discussion. I'm here to ask genuine questions and learn more about the topic. Could you help me understand the question?
Robert Henry, 2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Pet.1:20-21 even tell us the prophecy of the scripture came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Modern version bibles are not inspired by God, only the true scripture, the KJB is God breathed. But sadly you are right, there are many who don't understand, or believe that today. The Words of the LORD are pure Words!
Alex1939 We have to have the True Words of God today or you wouldn't even know that Jesus died on a cross for the sins of the world. I didn't say words save anybody anywhere in my comments. But the Words of the LORD are pure Words that are the only Truth we have, our instructions from God in this evil world today. We have Gods Words and we have mans corrupt words. Did you know that the Words that Jesus spoke will judge the dead at the great white throne judgment? Jn.12:46-48, 46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47. And if any man hear ((my words)), and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48. He that rejecteth me, and ((receiveth not my words)), hath one that judgeth him: ((the word that I have spoken)), the same shall judge him in the last day. Now we look at Rev.20:11-12, 11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and ((the books)) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Those books that are opened to judge the dead in the last day are ((the Words of Jesus Christ)), Jn.12:48 tell us this is true. Jer.23:36 tells us that (perverting) the words of the living God, is changing His Word! All modern versions change His Words, and All modern versions are corrupt. those corrupt books will not be the books that judge the dead at the great white throne judgement! The 66 books in the KJB are the books, (the Words of Jesus Christ) that will be opened to judge them in the last day. Mt.24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.) Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Well said and thankyou , I can't believe that anyone still needs that explaining to them when it's there in black and white , are we all reading the same book ? I do wonder sometimes . May God open all of our eyes and ears and hearts and brains to His Living Word .
Hello, is this a genuine question? I noticed someone using a different name in the discussions just now trying to push this topic and preach his opinions, could this be you?
c. I understand that 2 Peter 1:19-21 speaks of the prophetical Word that was given in the past & given to the Apostle John, for the future.
d. With Revelation 22:7: this blessing from the Lord Jesus is qualified by Revelation 22:18,19, referring to the Book of the Revelation and not the KJV.
e. 2 Peter 1:21: "prophecy came not in old time": I believe it speaks of the first prophetical Word given by God in the OT & not referring to the KJV.
So clearly, we do have differences of opinion & understanding of the Scriptures & though I hold the KJV in the highest esteem as the best translation we have from the originals & use nothing else, I don't share your conviction that it fully reflects the original spoken Word. There has to be differences, as with any translation work from one language to another, and I don't believe that the Holy Spirit's involvement would do any more than was done in this work. As said earlier, it would be better still if we all read the original languages, and even then, would there be no disputes between believers?
Another: Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", where the Heb. 'hassa-mayim' is in the plural. Now it's interesting that in Genesis 2:1,4, the KJV uses the same Hebrew plural word as 'heavens' - but not in Genesis 1:1. Maybe small errors, but errors nonetheless. And there are many more. So how then do we classify the KJV as error-free, when even some differences are seen from the original? As earlier stated, I don't believe that the 'preservation of God's Word' extends altogether to translations, but the Word that was spoken & delivered which cannot be altered & that Word cannot disappear or be annulled even if man wilfully or ignorantly changes that Word. I don't think that the Spirit's enabling to the KJV translators, compels that accuracy to the point that we're discussing here; rather, the translators considered everything available, finding the best most reliable texts in the Textus Receptus, which weren't giving problems & conflicts as the other 'older' MS were giving, using their knowledge of languages & abilities to deal with transferring of words & ideas into the English language & continual checking & re-checking of their work - all this with the Spirit's help, to produce the best translation we can get in our language.
b. Psalm 10:5, "his ways are always grievous." Where the NIV & most other versions state, 'prosperous, or succeed'. I've spent much time over this one, & unfortunately haven't come to any clear conclusion. The Hebrew word used is 'chuwl, pr. khool', & this is variously translated as 'to twist, writhe in pain, to dance, to whirl': a mish-mash of definitions in my opinion. I guess a Hebrew reader might pick up on that one, which maybe a reason why most translations go for 'prosperous', whereas the KJV & Douay-Rheims, for 'grievous, filthy'.
Ecclesiastes 8:10. To this verse, the Hebrew is clear, that the KJV, NASB, & some others attest to. So, I believe the NIV is incorrect here.
Thanks Jimbob, you've presented some interesting information, which I will begin with from your first page.
a. the question of preservation of God's Word. Is the Bible telling us (as in Psalm 12:6,7) that God's Word will remain untouched, unchanged, unadulterated forever? Or, are the Words of God, throughout the OT & NT, given as utterly pure & reliable from the Mouth of God to his servants the prophets, to deliver to God's people? And this Word given will abide forever, even to its fulfilment - nothing, not even one jot or tittle can be changed from what God has decreed & will perform.
Then we come to the recording of that Word, first by those who wrote & passed them onto Israel. We then get the Septuagint (the Hebrew OT translated into Greek for the benefit of the Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt). Other translations developed throughout the centuries. Can we confidently state that God would have protected His Word, first given to Israel, throughout those translations? We know for a fact that there are errors (minor & major) in all the translations we have available to us. You have listed a couple (which I'll come to later), & we can't forget that even in the KJV, queries can be raised, such Deuteronomy 8:9, "a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass." We know that brass cannot be dug out of the ground; copper is found in the earth, from which bronze is produced (a name given for a variety of copper alloys); as also for 'brass', a combination of copper & zinc. Why then did the KJV translators use 'brass', instead of 'copper' (Heb: 'nechosheth')? Were they thinking of the final product, but shouldn't they translate it as given?
Praying for Marvin tonight.
Dear Heavenly Father, bring peace and comfort to Marvin tonight. Assure him of Your unfailing love and powerful grace to bring him safely into his heavenly home with You forever. Give him relief from pain and help him to trust You through this most difficult time in his life. Help Marvin's family during this time. Give them time with Marvin to bless him in his last days, reminding him of Your salvation in Your Son, Jesus. May the whole family be unified and graced with strength and love. Amen.
God bless you.
I agree with Brother Chris, it's hard to come up with any scripture that is conclusive.
However I would like to present a theory
I Genesis 6:9 it says;
These are the generations of Noah: NOAH WAS A JUST MAN AND "PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS", and Noah walked with God.
This came right before verses 4-5 when he said vs 4-"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when THE SONS OF GOD CAME IN UNTO THE DAUGHTERS OF MEN, ( AND THEY BARE CHILDREN TO THEM ), the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
( Verse 4 the women bare children to the Giants, "No particular line as shown in Genesis6:2." This includes daughters of Seth. )
LOOK AT VERSE 5 AT WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE OUTCOME.
vs 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Vs 6. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
There is two things to note about Noah in these next 3 verses,
Why was he chosen? Because he was sinless? I don't think so, Vs 8 says Noah found "GRACE" in the eyes of the LORD. "GRACE is unmerited favor." Vs 9 says he was a just man. "We're justified by faith"
Genesis 6:7-9.
I believe Noah was justified the same way Abel was. "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain," Hebrews 11:4.
So that brings us to a phrase in verse 9. Noah was "PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS"
If you read Genesis 6:2-11 on through it seems as though Man had 2 issues. They didn't find grace in the Lords eyes because of lack of faith and there were those whos Genealogy was contaminated. "Perhaps by the Son's of God.
We don't know if Shem, Ham, and Japheth wives were or not. Nor do we know about Noah's wife.
Just a thought.
God bless.
Did you come up with the question or did someone else? If you did, can you be more specific what you're wanting to understand? What exactly about the Bible are you wanting to learn? And what about the holy spirit are you wanting to learn? Are you currently reading the Bible and are you a Christian?
Biscoe House of Mercy YouTube videos::
As examples, we know what Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33 tell us. The pre-flood nephilim are described as the product of the union of the sons of God with the daughters of men. We can choose to read this as 'every offspring that they had, produced giant-like men (& women)'. Could they also have produced more 'normal' sized offspring? We're not told - only an assumption & probably not a far-fetched one at that.
Then we see nephilim appear post-flood. We can't deny this reality because the Word gives it to us, so there must be an answer. But whatever the correct answer, it would be wrong to throw out or amend Scriptures such as Genesis 7:7 & 1 Peter 3:20 which tell us that only eight souls (of human-kind) were saved, to the destruction of all other humans. Therefore, based on this Truth, we could come up with opinions, such as, could the sons of God (maybe seen as the line of Shem, and previously, written of Seth), also inter-mixed with the daughters of men (maybe products of Ham & Japheth, & previously, of Cain), & produced giant offspring? So, the mention of giants anywhere in the Bible should not denote that giants were evil people because of their size, but that is how they grew, maybe arising from aberrations (read, birth defect), as the descendants of their first fathers grew in number & inter-mixed. Obviously, not every birth produced giants, but there were many in those days, as there are even some today.
So really, we are not given definitive answers, & even what I've given as a possibility, remains only that. But I think we can be certain, if the Bible says that all humans were destroyed because of their gross sins, then we must accept that as fact. As well, the Anakim were not judged as the old world was - giantism was never a sin.
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'
23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I'm glad that you are doing well. I am doing much better. Recovering from hand surgery now.