These scriptures, I believe are prophecing about the millennial reign as it speaks of people from " all nations " going up to the holy hill & Christ will teach the people His ways. People will war no more.
You read where God will Judge all nations towards the end.
It's my understanding the new Jerusalem rests on this holy hill as well. Not 100% on that but pretty sure as Christ is ruling from his Holy temple.
You are doing right in constantly seeking God. Trust in our self is futile. When we experience mental pain and anguish, it is because we've slipped into listening to our own voice. All knowledge lies behind every decision the Holy Spirit makes for us. One of our functions here is to decide against deciding what we want, in recognition that we DON'T know. Say to the Holy Spirit only, "Decide for me", and it is done, for His decisions are reflections of what God knows about you, and in this light error of any kind becomes impossible. I've come to realize my stubborn mind is my only enemy, and this part of my mind seems so loud. The Holy Spirit's Voice is only as loud as my willingness to listen. It cannot be louder without violating my freedom of choice, which the Holy Spirit seeks to restore, but never to undermine.
Lemme just ramble a bit.... Mark 8:22....Remember the blind man cd not see clearly under the 1st anointing....The blindman is the Church that cannot see clearly under early Church Doctrine...Thats y there are so many different Churches on every corner....None of them cd see clearly under early Church doctrine...Even Paul says we see like thru a glass darkly....The early Church was the same they cd not see clearly...Paul writes i hear there are divisions among you....Simply b/c they cd not see clearly UNDER EARLY Church Doctrine....We all need that 2 nd anointing....My lil Children of whom i travail IN BIRTH AGAIN A 2ND TIME....in birth til Christ is formed in you...It was not till the 2 nd coming when the woman gives birth to THE MANCHILD the Kingdom Gal 4 :19 ....Thats y there is so much confusion in this room no body can see clearly under the written word....The lesser light....The H.G. as the manchild that is gonna rule all nations is the living word the greater light...Remember the 2 nd wine was the best wine on the 3 rd day...But the blindman saw clearly under the 2 nd anointing....The 2 nd coming...When God will pour out of his spirit on ALL FLESH....The gift of the H.G....Which is that lil Child that is gonna rule all nations....The Kingdom does not come till the woman births the Children... Micah 5:3...The Kingdom does not come till the woman births the manchld.. REV 12 :5
Even Bathsheba had to travail a 2 nd time b/f...The great king Solomon was born...The Granson who God wanted to build the temple...Not David the son but Solomon the Granson...Which is the H.G. The 3 rd person that is gonna build his temple in our hearts and minds....As our bodies are the temple of God under the H.G. this New Covenant. in his blood ...And Jesus tells us a greater then Solomon is here..Impling a greater temple will be built under this new covenant in our hearts and minds ...via the H.G. That Child of Promise...Our new hearts and new spirits are the New Heaven n Earth.
I have often said,"i don't trust myself, well someone asked me "how can you not trust yourself?," i said,"because if i had trusted myself i would not have caused a lot of the pain i had done to myself, my trust is in god who has always been better to me ,than i have to myself. daily i seek him and his wisdom.pray for me.
I would also hasten to add that our salvation is not dependent upon our knowledge of the Bible.
Look at the salvation of the Ninevites. They had virtually no knowledge of the Word of God whatsoever. Jonah came to them with one message God will destroy you in 40 days. They recognized this as the Word of God, humbled themselves, and repented. Why? Because God was at work in their hearts to save them. Jonah 3.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Why does Genesis 26 read God made mean in "our" image and in the next verse 27 "in his own image"?
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34, 35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Yes. We cannot isolate a verse or a passage from its immediate context or the context of the entire Bible and expect to come to truth. We must compare scripture with scripture. The Bible is its own interpreter. It is its own dictionary.
We do not interpret scripture by what we see outside of the Bible. But we can sometimes understand what is happening in the church and in the world as we come to truth from the Bible itself.
We see sin multiplying in the world. And we see how the Bible has lost its ultimate authority in the churches and denominations as nearly every church teaches some element of a works / grace gospel and has more and more brought the world into the church. All predicted in the Bible and under God's control as we approach the end.
Will our pets be raptured with us? I love my little Tzh Zu. He's the sweetest loving dog. He loves every body ....I hope there's a scripture somewhere that includes our pets because if it was possible, he would be a Christian dog...
I do agree with most of what you have written David0920. However, when Jesus spoke in parables, he knew his audience (even His disciples) could not grapple with spiritual Truth, hence His sharing simple stories about life that people could understand. This type of delivery should have caused them to hunger for more (of these stories), & some in whom a glimmer of light would arise, to attend more to the Lord's deeper messages to them.
But not all Scripture are given as parables, or with hidden deeper meanings. Where verses are clearly written metaphorically, or even not understood by us because of the time & place they reference, we should approach them carefully, keeping ourselves open to the Spirit for His help. Though, when you wrote, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", I would question that. True, as I wrote, some things are difficult, even to the most studied & skilled persons, but the essential Truths leading to salvation; of most historical events; & of holy living, should be easily read & discerned throughout the Bible. If not, then the Bible becomes meaningless, valueless & best to be shelved for good.
But if we're sensing some deeper hidden meaning in a Scripture, we should be careful that our other supporting Scriptures are not strained & twisted to suit our beliefs. I too have seen a lot of it here, maybe not what you're referring to, and stand amazed & distraught at what can be done to the pure Word of God.
Dear Ruby, you are wrong about me. I have studied the Bible all of my life, starting when I was nine. I have only had a computer for about two years in which I can study many topics. I love the Scriptures. I know that God does help us to understand the Scriptures, but I am aware enough to know that our carnal nature can distort what the Spirit brings to us. I am not foolish enough to think that what I understand is 100% accurate.
But anyways, Ruby, I would appreciate if you will not evaluate me and my relationship with God and His Word so negatively. You do not know me and I do not know you. We can judge what we speak concerning the word, but not whether one is doing things rightly in their private relationship with God. Your comments about me give off an air of superiority. Even if you say you mean well, (and I believe you) how you described me was offensive.
Hello Betsy. You can pick up on the Apostle Paul's narrative from verse 10. Paul is comparing what the spiritual man receives & understands to the natural (or, carnal) man's understanding. Those who have God's Spirit in them are already thinking & discerning matters of the world & eternity at a completely different level than those without His Spirit.
When we speak about spiritual things to the carnal, natural man, they can seem absurd (or, foolishness, as v14 puts it) to him. It's like we're talking nonsense to him. So in verse 15, Paul writes, 'that the spiritual person (the one indwelt & led by God's Spirit) judges (or, examines, discerns) all things (at that higher level - with the Mind of God). But the spiritual person cannot be correctly judged (discerned) by the carnal person because he has no reference at all to God, to God's Words or to God's Ways.' The spiritual person is an oddity to him & whatever he thinks of, or gives judgement about the Christian, it will likely be founded on falsehood & surmisings & not in the Truth that is hidden in the spiritual Life in Christ.
Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.
And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.
But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.
I have to apologize Jimbob for what I wrote previously concerning the Revelation 13:1 beast. I should have been more attentive; I was swayed by verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Without checking against Scripture, my immediate thought was the head that was healed represented the anti-Christ: which of course, it doesn't - likely, Rome, his originating city.
Now giving this passage my full attention, my understanding is that the last great empire to fall was the Roman Empire (476 AD & was certainly in power at the time of this prophetical writing). And those horns & crowns represent those nations confederate with the beast. And I also agree with your comments on verses 4 to 6. And then we come to that verse that causes conflict: verse 7, "And it was given unto him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints". Clearly, there are believers present during anti-Christ's reign. Are these all believers that are living to this point in time not yet raptured, or, believers who have come to Christ (whether from reading the Bible, by the ministry of the two witnesses, or even the work of 144,000 of Israel's tribes)? Again, we hit a fork in the road, as the post-tribulationist will understand this as all believers are still on Earth - with the Rapture not having taken place yet. But will the Rapture, any rapture, take place for these martyred saints? I don't believe there is one, just a resurrection of the dead to join Jesus in His Millennial reign on Earth.
Because of some of the comments I see here, I feel compelled to again state what the Bible declares regarding how we are to view and interpret the Bible.
> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.
Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.
But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.
Chris p.2 to finish. In Gen.3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Here we see that the serpent which is the dragon, also called Satan, and the devil was called one of the beast of the field in Gen.3:1. And the beast that comes up out of the earth has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon, this is the dragon. When Satan is cast to the earth in Rev.12:7-9 (7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him. (The devil, satan, that old serpent, the dragon is cast out ((into the earth)) The beast who doeth great wonders, and causes the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast, this second beast who looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon is the dragon. Satan will enter into, or possess the son of perdition, the first beast who is the antichrist just like he ((entered into)) Judas Iscariot. I think the 1st beast in Rev.13 is the antichrist. The 2nd beast is the dragon who will possess the antichrist and give him power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. I think this time period will be great tribulation where he will force all to take the mark of the beast, he makes war with the saints. I think this 1st beast is the one who kills the two witnesses so the two witnesses time period would have to be the first 3 1/2 years, then the beast is given power to continue forty and two months, 3 1/2 years which will be great tribulation. I would really like to here what you think of this Chris? Thank you again, I really do appreciate you responding.
Chris I really do appreciate you responding, this has been a very fruitful conversation for me. It is good to get another view on things, it gets one thinking and more importantly reading and studying the Word of God. Thank you Chris! With your last comment you said, if I understood it correctly You don't think the beast in Rev.13:1 is the antichrist? I think it is, see what you think of this? The beast who kills the two witnesses in Rev.11:7, this verse tells us the beast ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. The word (bottomless)#12; it means depthless, i.e. (specifically) (infernal) abyss, deep (bottomless) pit, (by implying) the sea. ((by implying THE SEA) Rev.13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (out of the sea) having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. In v.2 the dragon gives him his power, and his seat and great authority. v.4 tells us the dragon gave him power again, and says they worshipped the dragon and they worshipped the beast. How would that be possible? v.5 Tells us the beast is given power to (continue) forty and two months, which as you know Chris is 3 1/2 years. v.6. He opens his mouth in blasphemy against God. v.7 He makes war against the saints, and to overcome them, (this will be the time of the mark of the beast, the great tribulation) and power was given him over ALL kindreds, and tongues and nations. (The one world leader who's main objective will be to kill Christians. v8. Tells us everybody on earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb. Satan will possess the antichrist when he given him his power. The beast in Rev.13:11 that comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH, and has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon? Is the dragon, he heals the deadly wound the antichrist receives, and he does great wonders, he makes fire come down from heaven. Almost finished but out of space, see p.2 (he comes UP OUT OF THE EARTH)
Though there is no mention of the anti-Christ in this chapter, it is understood that he has already been revealed & is raining his terror on any who disobey him (as in Revelation 13:4-8). But when God's Wrath is poured on Earth's inhabitants, the anti-Christ's days are also numbered ( Revelation 19:17-21).
And finally, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trump". I realize that it is commonly understood that the reference is to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation 15:20-19 & some others even connecting this phrase to the last of the trumpet blasts at the Jewish Feast of Trumpets (i.e. after all the trumpet blasts of various types/sounds are made, the final (LAST) long blast is sounded at the end). And yet, the 1 Corinthians 15:52 rendering in Greek, shows it as, 'the trumpet after which no other will sound'. It might then be that it isn't the seventh trumpet sound by the angel being referred to in Revelation 15, but it is at the final trumpet blast from the series of the other angelic blasts throughout that time of God's Wrath poured out. We might never come to a consensus on that one.
Anyway Jimbob, those are my thoughts: some in agreement with what you read in the Word, some not. There are several possibilities in all that we have presented & all these have value, but ultimately, it's where are understanding lies concerning the Church's departure to be with the Lord Jesus. Each person, holding their various Tribulation/Rapture positions, can certainly find Scriptures to support their belief; I wonder whether the Lord places great value on our exercises in studying the Word, but to leave the final interpretation & outcome to Him, He Who has all the right answers. Thank you again Jimbob.
I agree with you Jimbob, on 2 Thessalonians 2:8, that those verses refer to the Anti-Christ. As well as your Revelation 19:19,20 reference to the beast (= antichrist) & his connection to the false prophet.
Then you referenced Revelation 11:7 to this beast (the anti-Christ). But Revelation chapter 11 speaks of the two witnesses prophesying on Earth for 1,260 days (or 3.5 years), which is the one half of the Great Tribulation period (whether the first or second half?). These witnesses are killed after their work is done by the beast that comes out of the bottomless pit (v7). Can this beast be the anti-Christ, who would actually still be on Earth during that time of the witnesses, or reference to the different manifestations of the 'beast'. And out of interest, when checking on this 'beast' classification, we find that it can also apply to the anti-Christ spirit (as in Revelation 13:1), i.e. that spirit that is found in the nations representing the "ten horns". But the dragon (Satan) gave power to the beast (13:4). Without expanding this passage, we can see that this beast isn't the anti-Christ, because verses 11 to 18 show this second beast arising from the Earth (not the sea), clearly doing the work of THE anti-Christ.
Then further into Revelation chapter 11: as you wrote, the two witnesses are taken into heaven (though there's no mention of anyone else going with them). And as we know, the Rapture events surround the Lord's physical appearing in the clouds & the raptured go to be with Him in the clouds; not so with the Witnesses - Jesus is not present - they ascend into Heaven. As well, if the two witnesses satisfy the verse, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", then I feel that would be in the wrong time frame. According to Revelation 11:7, the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit & is the one who kills the witnesses.
When He appears! 1.Pet.1:7 That the ((trial of your faith)) being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be ((tried)) with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and (glory) at the ((appearing)) of Jesus Christ. The word (trial)#1383; it means a testing, trustworthiness, trying, test, trustiness, proof. The word (tried)#1381; it means to test, by implying to approve, discern, examine, try. (These words true meanings show that our FAITH will be tested! This verse says that our FAITH might be found unto praise and honour and (glory) ((AT THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST)). So our FAITH will be tested just before the appearing of Jesus Christ. Col.3:4 When Christ who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, then shall ye also appear with him in (glory). 1.Pet.5:4 And when the chief Shepperd SHALL APPEAR ye shall receive a crown of (glory) that fadeth not away. 1.Jn.3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when HE SHALL APPEAR, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. ((Many verses say when He appears, or at His appearing, also many verses speak of (glory) at His appearing, when does He appear? And appear with (glory)? Mt.24:29-31 (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, (30) ((And then)) SHALL APPEAR the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great (glory). ((He APPEARS with power and great GLORY)) (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All these verses are in alignment perfectly with Matthew.24:29-31, which is His appearing in the clouds, that is the rapture of the church.
YHWH is the name expressed to Moses when he (Moses) met with God in the burning bush. ( Exodus 3) YHWH means the ever-existing one who is eternal and has life within Himself. This tells us that YHWH has always existed. This name tells us that He is God for all time and eternity. This name, YHWH, expresses a truth about God. He has revealed many other names in the Bible that express other truths about Himself, such as El Shaddai, Adonai, Elohim. You can look up "the names of God in the Bible to get a list and also what they mean.
You read where God will Judge all nations towards the end.
It's my understanding the new Jerusalem rests on this holy hill as well. Not 100% on that but pretty sure as Christ is ruling from his Holy temple.
Why is Isaiah spelled incorrectly??
Thank you.....
You are doing right in constantly seeking God. Trust in our self is futile. When we experience mental pain and anguish, it is because we've slipped into listening to our own voice. All knowledge lies behind every decision the Holy Spirit makes for us. One of our functions here is to decide against deciding what we want, in recognition that we DON'T know. Say to the Holy Spirit only, "Decide for me", and it is done, for His decisions are reflections of what God knows about you, and in this light error of any kind becomes impossible. I've come to realize my stubborn mind is my only enemy, and this part of my mind seems so loud. The Holy Spirit's Voice is only as loud as my willingness to listen. It cannot be louder without violating my freedom of choice, which the Holy Spirit seeks to restore, but never to undermine.
Peace,
GOD IS
Even Bathsheba had to travail a 2 nd time b/f...The great king Solomon was born...The Granson who God wanted to build the temple...Not David the son but Solomon the Granson...Which is the H.G. The 3 rd person that is gonna build his temple in our hearts and minds....As our bodies are the temple of God under the H.G. this New Covenant. in his blood ...And Jesus tells us a greater then Solomon is here..Impling a greater temple will be built under this new covenant in our hearts and minds ...via the H.G. That Child of Promise...Our new hearts and new spirits are the New Heaven n Earth.
Look at the salvation of the Ninevites. They had virtually no knowledge of the Word of God whatsoever. Jonah came to them with one message God will destroy you in 40 days. They recognized this as the Word of God, humbled themselves, and repented. Why? Because God was at work in their hearts to save them. Jonah 3.
Matt 12:41
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Why does Genesis 26 read God made mean in "our" image and in the next verse 27 "in his own image"?
Any thoughts? Is this a translation error?
Thank you.
Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34, 35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Yes. We cannot isolate a verse or a passage from its immediate context or the context of the entire Bible and expect to come to truth. We must compare scripture with scripture. The Bible is its own interpreter. It is its own dictionary.
We do not interpret scripture by what we see outside of the Bible. But we can sometimes understand what is happening in the church and in the world as we come to truth from the Bible itself.
We see sin multiplying in the world. And we see how the Bible has lost its ultimate authority in the churches and denominations as nearly every church teaches some element of a works / grace gospel and has more and more brought the world into the church. All predicted in the Bible and under God's control as we approach the end.
But not all Scripture are given as parables, or with hidden deeper meanings. Where verses are clearly written metaphorically, or even not understood by us because of the time & place they reference, we should approach them carefully, keeping ourselves open to the Spirit for His help. Though, when you wrote, "God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth", I would question that. True, as I wrote, some things are difficult, even to the most studied & skilled persons, but the essential Truths leading to salvation; of most historical events; & of holy living, should be easily read & discerned throughout the Bible. If not, then the Bible becomes meaningless, valueless & best to be shelved for good.
But if we're sensing some deeper hidden meaning in a Scripture, we should be careful that our other supporting Scriptures are not strained & twisted to suit our beliefs. I too have seen a lot of it here, maybe not what you're referring to, and stand amazed & distraught at what can be done to the pure Word of God.
But anyways, Ruby, I would appreciate if you will not evaluate me and my relationship with God and His Word so negatively. You do not know me and I do not know you. We can judge what we speak concerning the word, but not whether one is doing things rightly in their private relationship with God. Your comments about me give off an air of superiority. Even if you say you mean well, (and I believe you) how you described me was offensive.
When we speak about spiritual things to the carnal, natural man, they can seem absurd (or, foolishness, as v14 puts it) to him. It's like we're talking nonsense to him. So in verse 15, Paul writes, 'that the spiritual person (the one indwelt & led by God's Spirit) judges (or, examines, discerns) all things (at that higher level - with the Mind of God). But the spiritual person cannot be correctly judged (discerned) by the carnal person because he has no reference at all to God, to God's Words or to God's Ways.' The spiritual person is an oddity to him & whatever he thinks of, or gives judgement about the Christian, it will likely be founded on falsehood & surmisings & not in the Truth that is hidden in the spiritual Life in Christ.
Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.
And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.
But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.
I have to apologize Jimbob for what I wrote previously concerning the Revelation 13:1 beast. I should have been more attentive; I was swayed by verse 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Without checking against Scripture, my immediate thought was the head that was healed represented the anti-Christ: which of course, it doesn't - likely, Rome, his originating city.
Now giving this passage my full attention, my understanding is that the last great empire to fall was the Roman Empire (476 AD & was certainly in power at the time of this prophetical writing). And those horns & crowns represent those nations confederate with the beast. And I also agree with your comments on verses 4 to 6. And then we come to that verse that causes conflict: verse 7, "And it was given unto him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints". Clearly, there are believers present during anti-Christ's reign. Are these all believers that are living to this point in time not yet raptured, or, believers who have come to Christ (whether from reading the Bible, by the ministry of the two witnesses, or even the work of 144,000 of Israel's tribes)? Again, we hit a fork in the road, as the post-tribulationist will understand this as all believers are still on Earth - with the Rapture not having taken place yet. But will the Rapture, any rapture, take place for these martyred saints? I don't believe there is one, just a resurrection of the dead to join Jesus in His Millennial reign on Earth.
> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.
Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.
But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.
Though there is no mention of the anti-Christ in this chapter, it is understood that he has already been revealed & is raining his terror on any who disobey him (as in Revelation 13:4-8). But when God's Wrath is poured on Earth's inhabitants, the anti-Christ's days are also numbered ( Revelation 19:17-21).
And finally, 1 Corinthians 15:52, "at the last trump". I realize that it is commonly understood that the reference is to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation 15:20-19 & some others even connecting this phrase to the last of the trumpet blasts at the Jewish Feast of Trumpets (i.e. after all the trumpet blasts of various types/sounds are made, the final (LAST) long blast is sounded at the end). And yet, the 1 Corinthians 15:52 rendering in Greek, shows it as, 'the trumpet after which no other will sound'. It might then be that it isn't the seventh trumpet sound by the angel being referred to in Revelation 15, but it is at the final trumpet blast from the series of the other angelic blasts throughout that time of God's Wrath poured out. We might never come to a consensus on that one.
Anyway Jimbob, those are my thoughts: some in agreement with what you read in the Word, some not. There are several possibilities in all that we have presented & all these have value, but ultimately, it's where are understanding lies concerning the Church's departure to be with the Lord Jesus. Each person, holding their various Tribulation/Rapture positions, can certainly find Scriptures to support their belief; I wonder whether the Lord places great value on our exercises in studying the Word, but to leave the final interpretation & outcome to Him, He Who has all the right answers. Thank you again Jimbob.
I agree with you Jimbob, on 2 Thessalonians 2:8, that those verses refer to the Anti-Christ. As well as your Revelation 19:19,20 reference to the beast (= antichrist) & his connection to the false prophet.
Then you referenced Revelation 11:7 to this beast (the anti-Christ). But Revelation chapter 11 speaks of the two witnesses prophesying on Earth for 1,260 days (or 3.5 years), which is the one half of the Great Tribulation period (whether the first or second half?). These witnesses are killed after their work is done by the beast that comes out of the bottomless pit (v7). Can this beast be the anti-Christ, who would actually still be on Earth during that time of the witnesses, or reference to the different manifestations of the 'beast'. And out of interest, when checking on this 'beast' classification, we find that it can also apply to the anti-Christ spirit (as in Revelation 13:1), i.e. that spirit that is found in the nations representing the "ten horns". But the dragon (Satan) gave power to the beast (13:4). Without expanding this passage, we can see that this beast isn't the anti-Christ, because verses 11 to 18 show this second beast arising from the Earth (not the sea), clearly doing the work of THE anti-Christ.
Then further into Revelation chapter 11: as you wrote, the two witnesses are taken into heaven (though there's no mention of anyone else going with them). And as we know, the Rapture events surround the Lord's physical appearing in the clouds & the raptured go to be with Him in the clouds; not so with the Witnesses - Jesus is not present - they ascend into Heaven. As well, if the two witnesses satisfy the verse, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", then I feel that would be in the wrong time frame. According to Revelation 11:7, the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit & is the one who kills the witnesses.
YHWH is the name expressed to Moses when he (Moses) met with God in the burning bush. ( Exodus 3) YHWH means the ever-existing one who is eternal and has life within Himself. This tells us that YHWH has always existed. This name tells us that He is God for all time and eternity. This name, YHWH, expresses a truth about God. He has revealed many other names in the Bible that express other truths about Himself, such as El Shaddai, Adonai, Elohim. You can look up "the names of God in the Bible to get a list and also what they mean.