Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
Ok David0920, to take up the example of "God speaking about fire". Agreed, when God speaks of fire it inevitably applies to some sort of judgement from Him or a purifying work.
The point then, from your understanding, when 'Fire' is mentioned in Revelation 20:14,15, how do you interpret it? Is it a Fire of Judgement, or a Fire of eternal torment, or a Fire for all who've not obeyed God in faith and will be purified to be made acceptable & be saved, or only a spiritual Fire (i.e. not a literal Fire, therefore not an eternal one)? Sorry to put it to you in this way - I'm trying to establish what you mean by 'comparing Scripture with Scripture', because there are various interpretation methods used & many of them inconsistent with correct biblical hermeneutics, as you might have seen here, which has prompted you to raise this important matter.
And by this I mean, Fire is certainly shown in various portions of the Bible, but the word Fire can only be understood by the context it is found in (e.g. the fire that consumed bullock sacrifice in 1 Kings 18:19-40, is it the same fire in Revelation 20:14,15?). It may have exuded the same heat & power, but can we correlate it with anything other than the fire from God for the purpose of incinerating the sacrifice & nothing else? In such an example, we cannot make the two Scriptures fit together, though 'Fire' being the common word, nor can we force the meaning of other words to mean (or, apply) to other situations when the context is not the same.
Chris I really do appreciate all of your reply's to this post. I would like to ask you one more thing if you don't mind. Will you please provide the (scriptures) that point you to believing the return of Jesus for His church is before the tribulation? I would like to see the scriptures that have your believing in the pre-tribulation rapture so strongly. Thank you Chris.
"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Is it possible to fulfill all righteousness without baptism? How could we identify with Him, without it?
Even so while we live in the flesh , we are dead to sin through baptism, even so we are always susceptible to sin, as long as we are alive in this world!
Gods plan is and shall be for the world to come to the knowledge of the forgiveness of sin in Christ! As you have said with the new covenant , established with the Son before the creation.
Jesus said, this is the new covenant in my blood given and shed for the remission of sin. Our faith will determine the outcome of those who are around us, the church and those in it .
As you said, we are justified by THIS FAITH, and not by works. If our devotional attitude is toward anything else but the saving grace found IN Jesus Christ, than we are still in our sin and the truth is not in us.
Peter was a devout Jew. what happened with the sheet and the unclean animals would be the outcome from God towards all mankind. Like us ,We all need to open our hearts and mind to all men! Both Jew and gentiles!
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Daniel's vision talked about christians suffer much.Tjid confirms my belief that there is no such thing as the pre rapture.Since always Those Rai ing alive,will be caught up to meet Christ in the clouds
First of all. I will like to say a big thank you to everyone who took their time to set up this Bible reading , which I enjoyed every day. Besides, that I am indeed of a new Bible ,please, thank you.
Hi DDGC. By definition, 'begotten', or 'beget', is similar to what the dictionary shows. But when used biblically, and I mean about Jesus (as in John 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9), it gives us the description as "ONLY begotten". And this is important, as in Greek, the word is 'monogenes', which means, 'one & only', or 'one (mono) of a kind (genos)'. And Jesus was like no other - there was never a human born on Earth, born of a virgin and Who also held the fullness of the Deity in His Person ( Colossians 2:9). We can rightly say that Jesus was indeed the 'only begotten of God'.
Hello Edward. That's a good question, but the answer to it becomes clear when we examine the Character & Names of Jesus.
What you read in Matthew 1:23 "...they shall call his name Emmanuel...", is taken from Isaiah 7:14, where God gives a prophetical word to wicked King Ahaz of Judah, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Does this verse in Isaiah in conflict with Matthew 1:25, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS?" When we study the names or titles attributed to Jesus, such as Immanuel, we learn that there is significance in giving each of these names. For example, the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6, tells us, "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Here is a whole list of names attributed to the coming Jesus & though they are descriptive of the Character & Work of this One from Glory, I don't believe that anyone ever used those names, even in the Greek, when speaking to Jesus.
Likewise, when the prophecy was given in Isaiah 7:14, it was about the Name that Jesus' Coming would bring, i.e. Immanuel, or in Hebrew, 'with us is God'. And of course, this ties in beautifully with Isaiah 9:6, that Jesus IS the Mighty God (i.e. He not only comes from God, but out of God's Being, wholly Divine, & in His incarnation, wholly Human).
And you could look up Jeremiah 23:5,6 & see two other Names by which Jesus is identified: the Righteous Branch & The LORD our Righteousness (in Heb. Yahweh Sid-qenu), i.e. God's Name attributed to His Son Jesus, the Christ.
So, Jesus is His Name (in Heb. Yehoshua, or Joshua): the LORD is Salvation, but He can have many Names attributed to Him, each one depicting Who He is, and Immanuel is just one Name given to Him.
Very difficult for me to return comment on this one of yours Ruby, simply because I cannot see Revelation chapter 8, 'Jesus Who opened the seventh seal & silence in Heaven about the space of half an hour', has anything to do with the fifty days from Passover to Pentecost. How do you work that one out, especially when most of the Seal Judgements are yet to come (i.e. in the coming Great Tribulation)?
And "that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH", of course I've rejected by my other comment on Ezekiel chapter 5.
True, Ruby: "Prophecy can be inside actual historical events", & this is what this prophecy in Ezekiel was given to do. But how do we understand this chapter 5 prophecy?
The prophet was required to graphically demonstrate what would happen to Judah at the end stages of the Babylonian siege on Jerusalem. This was a prophecy to Judah to tell them what would come upon them & to provoke them to repentance. This demonstration by Ezekiel by cutting his hair in three parts plus one, showed them that a third would die in the city, a third probably in battle, & a third dragged into exile. So, these first five verses in Ezekiel chapter 5, are about the coming destruction & captivity, & only a few (vv 3,4) considered faithful, but still subject to suffering.
None of these "were chosen to have the Spirit to cause them to come to the truth" & none ever received Him since that time until Jesus opened the Door for Judah (& Israel), & gave them His Spirit when they turned to Him in faith, that their eyes might be opened.
Yet, Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Jesus, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" ( Revelation 1:7). Is then Ezekiel chapter 5 about a "fire coming forth INTO all the house of Israel"? I don't believe so. Rather, it's a fire going THROUGH the house of Judah (& Israel) as judgement for their many sins against the Holy One.
In Matthew 1:21 the angel says to name him JESUS, but in Matthew 23 the prophecy from isaiah says that he shall be called Emanuael. why the different names?
We become the sons of God when we believe the gospel, trusting Christ as savior. Jesus was the only BEGOTTEN son of God. He was begotten of God. He was God in the flesh.
Another way to think of it is that we are brothers/sisters to Jesus Christ because when we believe we are born again. Born of God. Now his son. Hope this makes sense.
Obeying the gospel means believing the gospel. The one true gospel of grace is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. He was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures. When one believes the gospel they are immediately and permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. There's no other way to receive the spirit. The only requirement for salvation is believing the gospel. Trusting Christ did it all for you.
It is my sense that the Church number was now completed & the Marriage Supper could take place (of course, this is not specifically mentioned). What happened at the Rapture, was an 'harpazo' (snatching away) of the dead, made alive & to be forever with the Lord; nothing akin to a resurrection where saints remain on the Earth, restored & reigning with Christ. So, the question, 'cannot the Rapture of the dead be seen as a resurrection?' In one sense yes, as it clearly is a raising from a state of death, but then we see Matthew 27:50-53; Acts 9:36-43; possibly Acts 20:7-12; (& not to mention the several other personal resurrections in the OT). I see the Rapture of the Church as a specific resurrection to remove believers from the impending Great Tribulation & not part of the General Resurrection (First Resurrection). And 'the shout & the trump'? Maybe, the call to march from Heaven & the command for the saints to rise up to the clouds; something the heavenly host hear & the personal call to those in Christ & none else can hear?
Revelation 1:7: Jesus comes to defeat the enemy armies & the world will behold this spectacular sight. I don't think one can confidently relate the clouds in this verse with the clouds in 1 Thessalonians. Maybe just cloudy days, or specially created clouds for that purpose. Who knows. As well "with clouds" & "in clouds" might be significant, but I wouldn't pursue that. I'm sorry Jimbob that you find so many holes in the "pre-trib theory".
I will admit that most things written of the future can be open to many opinions, simply because we don't get a nice laid out timeline of events. It's a matter of how we put Scriptures together. If wrong in my understanding, so be it - it's just how the Scriptures fall into place for me. Now some believe that the post-trib position involves believers who survive the tribulation & also have to face that time of God's Wrath poured out as well, which neither you nor I believe. That's a plus for us!
Wanda, Gods word is clear that salvation is by grace through faith, not of ourselves, a gift from God, not of works. Ephesians 2:8-9. It also says in 1st John that we can KNOW we have eternal life. The Gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Read that. But, Christ died for YOU on the cross shedding his blood for the forgiveness of your sins. He rose again three days later according to the scriptures. Do you believe that? All you have to do to have eternal life is trust Christ. Believe he did it for you. Do you believe it? If yes, then you are saved! Salvation is a free gift offered to you and you receive it by faith. Your belief of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the sole basis of your salvation and the surety you have it forever!
Appreciate your comments Jimbob & I'll take it from the top.
Revelation 19:7-9. The way I understand the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Church, is that we have already been joined to Him; Ephesians 5:31,32, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Paul believed that the Church was already joined to Christ - they were one - we were already married. So there's no second marriage planned - only His bride gathered together & being made ready for that great celebration, otherwise called, the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb". Where "the marriage of the Lamb is come" as seen in verse 7, it is in celebration, with the Supper, of the union that had already taken place when the Holy Spirit was given to every believer, joining him/her to Christ. And as His bride was arrayed in fine linen for the celebration, clearly depicts the pure, holy & acceptable state of Christ's spouse, the Church.
Yes, His Army, which includes His bride & probably other angels, do join Him in His descent to Earth. So the question (which you have answered), 'if the bride is with Christ, then where has the Marriage Supper taken place, in Heaven or on Earth?' Your understanding, is in Heaven, "The wedding has taken place and the Bride is now called the "wife". My sense is that the Supper is still to take place; why? The Bride was made ready & arrayed in 'marriage' outfits, Jesus & the Bride (& others) mount their stallions, & join Him in war; and of course, victory is theirs. What comes after this? Revelation 20:1-5 tell us that after Satan is bound in the pit, John saw thrones & those who died under the anti-Christ's pogrom. These saints arose from their graves & presumably Jesus & His army of saints joined them. This is the First Resurrection of Believers. (this paragraph continue onto Page 2.)
We can pray for an end to this war in Ukraine and for the result to be good for Ukraine and our world. Thank you for the reminder. I was thinking to day of posting for people to pray for the war, but here you are, beating me to it. Good job!
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
The point then, from your understanding, when 'Fire' is mentioned in Revelation 20:14,15, how do you interpret it? Is it a Fire of Judgement, or a Fire of eternal torment, or a Fire for all who've not obeyed God in faith and will be purified to be made acceptable & be saved, or only a spiritual Fire (i.e. not a literal Fire, therefore not an eternal one)? Sorry to put it to you in this way - I'm trying to establish what you mean by 'comparing Scripture with Scripture', because there are various interpretation methods used & many of them inconsistent with correct biblical hermeneutics, as you might have seen here, which has prompted you to raise this important matter.
And by this I mean, Fire is certainly shown in various portions of the Bible, but the word Fire can only be understood by the context it is found in (e.g. the fire that consumed bullock sacrifice in 1 Kings 18:19-40, is it the same fire in Revelation 20:14,15?). It may have exuded the same heat & power, but can we correlate it with anything other than the fire from God for the purpose of incinerating the sacrifice & nothing else? In such an example, we cannot make the two Scriptures fit together, though 'Fire' being the common word, nor can we force the meaning of other words to mean (or, apply) to other situations when the context is not the same.
When did he find out?
I will continue to pray for her.
copyright infringement? My website has a lot of unique content I've either written myself or outsourced but it
looks like a lot of it is popping it up all over the web without my
permission. Do you know any ways to help protect against content from being ripped off?
I'd certainly appreciate it. vacation on gozo
Even so while we live in the flesh , we are dead to sin through baptism, even so we are always susceptible to sin, as long as we are alive in this world!
Gods plan is and shall be for the world to come to the knowledge of the forgiveness of sin in Christ! As you have said with the new covenant , established with the Son before the creation.
Jesus said, this is the new covenant in my blood given and shed for the remission of sin. Our faith will determine the outcome of those who are around us, the church and those in it .
As you said, we are justified by THIS FAITH, and not by works. If our devotional attitude is toward anything else but the saving grace found IN Jesus Christ, than we are still in our sin and the truth is not in us.
Peter was a devout Jew. what happened with the sheet and the unclean animals would be the outcome from God towards all mankind. Like us ,We all need to open our hearts and mind to all men! Both Jew and gentiles!
two layers white moter joints door to arch was open below arch aroad comming toward ground stoping 20ft above ground was road with 2perfect curbs
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
First of all. I will like to say a big thank you to everyone who took their time to set up this Bible reading , which I enjoyed every day. Besides, that I am indeed of a new Bible ,please, thank you.
May the Lord God bless you all in Jesus name.
Joy.
What you read in Matthew 1:23 "...they shall call his name Emmanuel...", is taken from Isaiah 7:14, where God gives a prophetical word to wicked King Ahaz of Judah, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Does this verse in Isaiah in conflict with Matthew 1:25, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS?" When we study the names or titles attributed to Jesus, such as Immanuel, we learn that there is significance in giving each of these names. For example, the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6, tells us, "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Here is a whole list of names attributed to the coming Jesus & though they are descriptive of the Character & Work of this One from Glory, I don't believe that anyone ever used those names, even in the Greek, when speaking to Jesus.
Likewise, when the prophecy was given in Isaiah 7:14, it was about the Name that Jesus' Coming would bring, i.e. Immanuel, or in Hebrew, 'with us is God'. And of course, this ties in beautifully with Isaiah 9:6, that Jesus IS the Mighty God (i.e. He not only comes from God, but out of God's Being, wholly Divine, & in His incarnation, wholly Human).
And you could look up Jeremiah 23:5,6 & see two other Names by which Jesus is identified: the Righteous Branch & The LORD our Righteousness (in Heb. Yahweh Sid-qenu), i.e. God's Name attributed to His Son Jesus, the Christ.
So, Jesus is His Name (in Heb. Yehoshua, or Joshua): the LORD is Salvation, but He can have many Names attributed to Him, each one depicting Who He is, and Immanuel is just one Name given to Him.
And "that THIRD PART are the ones of the house of JUDAH", of course I've rejected by my other comment on Ezekiel chapter 5.
The prophet was required to graphically demonstrate what would happen to Judah at the end stages of the Babylonian siege on Jerusalem. This was a prophecy to Judah to tell them what would come upon them & to provoke them to repentance. This demonstration by Ezekiel by cutting his hair in three parts plus one, showed them that a third would die in the city, a third probably in battle, & a third dragged into exile. So, these first five verses in Ezekiel chapter 5, are about the coming destruction & captivity, & only a few (vv 3,4) considered faithful, but still subject to suffering.
None of these "were chosen to have the Spirit to cause them to come to the truth" & none ever received Him since that time until Jesus opened the Door for Judah (& Israel), & gave them His Spirit when they turned to Him in faith, that their eyes might be opened.
Yet, Zechariah 12:10 will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Jesus, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" ( Revelation 1:7). Is then Ezekiel chapter 5 about a "fire coming forth INTO all the house of Israel"? I don't believe so. Rather, it's a fire going THROUGH the house of Judah (& Israel) as judgement for their many sins against the Holy One.
adjective. : brought into existence by or as if by a parent.
From Merriam Webster
Another way to think of it is that we are brothers/sisters to Jesus Christ because when we believe we are born again. Born of God. Now his son. Hope this makes sense.
It is my sense that the Church number was now completed & the Marriage Supper could take place (of course, this is not specifically mentioned). What happened at the Rapture, was an 'harpazo' (snatching away) of the dead, made alive & to be forever with the Lord; nothing akin to a resurrection where saints remain on the Earth, restored & reigning with Christ. So, the question, 'cannot the Rapture of the dead be seen as a resurrection?' In one sense yes, as it clearly is a raising from a state of death, but then we see Matthew 27:50-53; Acts 9:36-43; possibly Acts 20:7-12; (& not to mention the several other personal resurrections in the OT). I see the Rapture of the Church as a specific resurrection to remove believers from the impending Great Tribulation & not part of the General Resurrection (First Resurrection). And 'the shout & the trump'? Maybe, the call to march from Heaven & the command for the saints to rise up to the clouds; something the heavenly host hear & the personal call to those in Christ & none else can hear?
Revelation 1:7: Jesus comes to defeat the enemy armies & the world will behold this spectacular sight. I don't think one can confidently relate the clouds in this verse with the clouds in 1 Thessalonians. Maybe just cloudy days, or specially created clouds for that purpose. Who knows. As well "with clouds" & "in clouds" might be significant, but I wouldn't pursue that. I'm sorry Jimbob that you find so many holes in the "pre-trib theory".
I will admit that most things written of the future can be open to many opinions, simply because we don't get a nice laid out timeline of events. It's a matter of how we put Scriptures together. If wrong in my understanding, so be it - it's just how the Scriptures fall into place for me. Now some believe that the post-trib position involves believers who survive the tribulation & also have to face that time of God's Wrath poured out as well, which neither you nor I believe. That's a plus for us!
Appreciate your comments Jimbob & I'll take it from the top.
Revelation 19:7-9. The way I understand the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Church, is that we have already been joined to Him; Ephesians 5:31,32, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Paul believed that the Church was already joined to Christ - they were one - we were already married. So there's no second marriage planned - only His bride gathered together & being made ready for that great celebration, otherwise called, the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb". Where "the marriage of the Lamb is come" as seen in verse 7, it is in celebration, with the Supper, of the union that had already taken place when the Holy Spirit was given to every believer, joining him/her to Christ. And as His bride was arrayed in fine linen for the celebration, clearly depicts the pure, holy & acceptable state of Christ's spouse, the Church.
Yes, His Army, which includes His bride & probably other angels, do join Him in His descent to Earth. So the question (which you have answered), 'if the bride is with Christ, then where has the Marriage Supper taken place, in Heaven or on Earth?' Your understanding, is in Heaven, "The wedding has taken place and the Bride is now called the "wife". My sense is that the Supper is still to take place; why? The Bride was made ready & arrayed in 'marriage' outfits, Jesus & the Bride (& others) mount their stallions, & join Him in war; and of course, victory is theirs. What comes after this? Revelation 20:1-5 tell us that after Satan is bound in the pit, John saw thrones & those who died under the anti-Christ's pogrom. These saints arose from their graves & presumably Jesus & His army of saints joined them. This is the First Resurrection of Believers. (this paragraph continue onto Page 2.)
We can pray for an end to this war in Ukraine and for the result to be good for Ukraine and our world. Thank you for the reminder. I was thinking to day of posting for people to pray for the war, but here you are, beating me to it. Good job!