That to me, Onewatchman, is a difficult question to answer, simply because the Holy Spirit will come into a person's life to take up residence, when that repentance of sin is real, without other motives or hypocrisy. By this I mean, a sinner might be suddenly overwhelmed by the volume & intensity of his sin before God's Holiness (as was in my case back in 1979), where I fell to my knees in tears when my sin, once enjoyable & boundless, suddenly became a horror in my heart. I could do nothing else but cry out for mercy to a merciful God. And how did I know that I was baptized in the Spirit? Not with other tongues, nor any other outward manifestation, but with an overwhelming peace in my heart & the assurance that my cry was heard & I was now forgiven. To me, that could only happen when the Holy Spirit filled me - turning my weeping over my wretchedness before God into laughter for being made clean & acceptable, because of God's mighty Work. And God's Spirit has been with me & in me all this time, in my long march Heaven-ward.
Mine is just a quick example for you, of a conviction of sin & reception of the Holy Spirit at the point of repentance. But of course, not all who repent or confess or even baptized in water, are necessarily saved. Why? Because we do not know that person's state, his reason for turning to Christ, or him just being on a journey with God, so that what may be repentance now, may some time later be a true repentance leading to salvation & the Gift of the Holy Spirit. So it is possible that a person may repent for his sins often (i.e. feeling sorry for doing wrong & then going back to the old ways; but not having the conviction of sin that causes a complete turn-around & brokenness before God). I think of Acts 3:19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord...". True repentance brings true conversion brings true refreshing now & till Jesus returns.
I will pray for you and others. I myself, need to lose weight and it has been very hard for me due to many painful problems in my feet, knees, hips, and back over the past 5 years or so. Exercising is too painful for me and so I watch what I eat. But losing pounds is a slow process for me. And when I get ill, like you, it is hard to keep at it when one's body is fighting something else.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You today in the name of Jesus and ask for Your help concerning losing weight that is causing problems in our bodies. Lead us to a method that will work for the long run, be sustainable over a long time, and cause our body's metabolism to work properly. Lord God, help us to overcome cravings for food that harm us and develop in us a taste for foods that help us, especially food groups that we shy away from in our present diet. Lord, You are sovereign over us, so we ask that You rule our appetites and cause our bodies to lose weight in a healthy way. Father, this is a struggle for many of us, and we need Your power to overcome this problem of being overweight. Heal us from pain that keeps us from activity that will help our metabolism and strengthen our bodies internally and outwardly. Increase our stamina for activity so that we do not get breathless so easily. Help those of us who have asthma that interferes with our ability to exert ourselves to a level to promote metabolic actions that reduce fat in our bodies. We ask that You will help our loved ones support us in our efforts and need to lose weight and cause their love for us to be strong and selfless and likewise our love for them in the same way. We thank you that You love us so and am willing to answer our prayers as You see fit. We are trusting You to help us and to guide us and to work in us to accomplish that which You have as priorities for us to fulfill at this time in our llives. Amen.
I believe the KJV is the best we can have in our language, but if we believe that the "Bible is its own dictionary & its own interpreter" (at least to learn of the deeper spiritual Truths), & then to not use the tools available to us, this will certainly leave us less informed than we can & ought to be.
What I read & understood of Hell as a new believer, is a far cry to what I know now, given the Hebrew/Greek words, contexts, etc. Without this knowledge, any other interpretation is headed for failure. Once we learn this, then understanding the Bible's Truths, with the Spirit's enabling, will be fruitful.
But I will acknowledge this: if an unbeliever reads the Gospel in the Bible for the first time, knowing nothing else, he can certainly receive conviction of sins & shown the path to salvation by the Spirit's Work through the Word. But can that person then give an explanation of why this is so? Most likely not. Only after much studying & related Scripture comparisons, can he learn, digest & apply God's Truth & why his salvation is "so great".
Without these principles, here's what can happen by those who look only to the spiritual, deeper message of the Bible & disregarding any other method to approach them: we can make Hell to mean whatever we think it should mean, there's no hunger to learn what it is supposed to mean when the original languages are referred to, Hell (as many other biblical topics) can be over-spiritualized to apply to anything that we are comfortable with (e.g. since God is a God of perfect Love, His consignment of anyone to an eternal fire is preposterous). And this is only one example; demonstrating that we, who have the Word of God in English, must be cognizant of the many other stages of its development from when God first inspired the original authors to pen those words.
What we now accept as the pure unchangeable Word of God in the KJV is quite different from their original languages. With various copies of the originals made, of translation difficulties (text gathering, text comparison, etc.), of limitations of 'English' words to correctly express the meaning & intent of the original, all guarantee that what we have now does not bear an exact resemblance to the original writings; insofar as correctly expressing the original words into English words/ideas. We can ask any Hebrew or Greek reader, who is proficient in English as well, to verify this - and we are talking about complete accuracy to the original here. Yet, we accept the KJV as God-inspired, when in fact it was the original writings that were so & the KJV has been as faithful as is possible to them.
Thank you David0920 for those added comments. Just to focus on your comment, "when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic", which seems to sum up the point you're making here.
True, ultimately only the Word of God is God's Message to the world, & I believe hermeneutics is only the principle applied so as to enable us to grasp & correctly handle the given Word, so that the Spirit might take us further into knowledge of Truth. All those parts of Hermeneutics are only essential for employing the basic tools to 'rightly divide the Word', but those tools can never in themselves guarantee us access to the true, deeper meanings, but they will give us a proper foundation to proceed. Therefore, as much as it is commendable to you or others to believe that they will resort to no other tool to assist them, except the Bible in their hands, we can see that even this can bring on questions & disputes with others reading the same Scriptures who are dependent on the same Holy Spirit to lead them. I ask, 'why is this so?'
A classic one is whether Hell/Lake of Fire is an actual place of eternal torment or simply expressed in a figurative manner to denote something else quite different. Biblical hermeneutics always demands a literal interpretation (unless the wording in context is metaphorical), it demands that we apply historical, grammatical, contextual principles to Hell to help us know what meaning is intended, and of course, to compare that Scripture with others to learn what God has spoken about it, through other authors.
I feel I have intruded on you and Chris, forgive me if I have.
I will just touch on Matt. 24:40-41. I understand Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are twofold, parts for the disciples for instruction for what they would endure and things leading up to the destruction of the temple and also for who will be living at the end times. In context of the chapter, we see "the coming of the Son of man." three times in this chapter verses 27, 37, and 39.
Matt. 24:27 He will be seen coming as Rev. 1:7. In Matt. 24:29:31 after the tribulation the Son of man coming with power and great glory. Rev. 19:11-16, similar to Joel 2:11, Joel 3:13-17Zechariah 14:1-9. My understanding this is about the Second Coming of Christ.
In Matt. 24:36 we do not know when and we must be ready, we do not know when our death will be, it could be now. Jesus second coming is after the tribulation of the beast, we must be ready to not be tempted and be strong in our faith to not take the mark to save this flesh. Luke covers Matt.24 40-41 and just before, he adds this. Matt. 16:25Mk. 8:35
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. God has said He will keep us from this, Rev. 3:10, but for those people who know the truth and refuse to receive it, He will send a delusion, 2 Thes. 2:11-12
In Matt. 24:37-39 as the days of Noah so shall also be the coming of the Son of man, the ones taken away in Noah's time were wicked. Matt.24:40-41 Why would it be the opposite of Noah's time? It is like the wheat and the tares at the end the ones taken will be burned in the lake of fire and the righteous will be left. At Jesus's return, the ones taken before the end will be where the eagles are, Luke 17:37Ezek. 39:17-20Rev. 19:17-21 the battle of Armageddon.
This is my understanding you may disagree and that is ok. Those in the first resurrection reign with Jesus on earth and there are only two resurrections.
That is not what I said and certainly not what I meant. God is infinite and the Bible reveals only the character and nature of God that He chooses to reveal to us. Our finite minds could never begin to understand every aspect of the character and nature of God.
But God identifies Himself totally with the Word of God, and the Bible with God Himself. As the Bible declares in John 1.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So can there be any doubt whatsoever that the Bible has ONE AUTHOR, and that is God Himself.
The point I am making is that we MUST come to the Bible recognizing that the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY is GOD'S WORD. Not merely a collection of books ABOUT God's Word by many authors, or merely CONTAINING God's Word. But it is, in fact, THE WORD OF GOD Himself, that God has given us, form Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.
This is not a small or insignificant matter. It is FUNDAMENTAL to understanding what God is teaching as we read and study the Bible.
The Word of God teaches us in 1 Cor. 2:14 that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.
This is why those communicating their messages in this 'forum' so often use the word 'discerning' while the 'Word of God' is not of any private interpretation ( 2 Peter 1:20). This is why it also teaches; that anyone that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man ( 1 Cor. 2:15).
Please remember, the words from the 'Word of God' are according to the 'Spirit of Truth' ( John 14:17). Furthermore, the Spirit of truth cannot be received by this world ( John 14:17) as this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
May we suggest you search the words 'a world deceived' an learn how you may know the difference between the 'natural' and the 'spiritual' body ( 1 Cor. 15:44) and how and by whom this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
It is God's will for all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4), but not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ( Matthew 7:21).
Many will say unto me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? ( Matthew 7:22).
And then will I profess unto them I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity ( Matthew 7:23). If you would like to know who by nature your Father is, may we suggest you read John 8::43-45.
But let me be clear so that there is no misunderstanding.
When God writes about a historical event, that record is absolutely true and trustworthily recorded the way it literally occurred. And we can learn some historical and moral and spiritual lessons from the event and the literal record itself without going any deeper.
However, we have not come to the ultimate truth that God is teaching in that record until we have uncovered the underlying Gospel message that God is teaching in the particulars of the event and the words and phrases that God has used to record that event.
And, most importantly, as we seek to uncover the underlying Gospel message by comparing scripture with scripture and allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, our conclusions must harmonize with everything else the Bible declares about that aspect of the Gospel. As God declares the scriptures are "not subject to any private interpretation".
This is not easy to do and takes time and effort to "compare spiritual things with spiritual". And God Himself must open our spiritual eyes to give us understanding in accordance with His will and His time table.
Fortunately God had provided some to be teachers that have taken time and study to do their homework and guide us in this. Of which I most certainly do not claim to be one. But we must recognize that no teacher is infallible and we must check out what they are teaching by going back to the Bible again and again.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures.
Maybe a verse not on how to do it, but about attitude in doing it. Psalm 84:10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
Bro Chris love ya my man...But lemme give ya my slant on all the hermeneutics and exegesis in the world cd not open that book the new covenant in the right hand of the Father....John said i wept much b/c no one in heaven or earth cd open the book that Jesus wrote with his own blood....Remember that image in Daniel 2 had to be destroyed completely which is Churchanity....Thats y Paul was saying when that which is PERFECT is come ( the new covenant in his blood ) that which is done in part will be done away with...( Hermeneutics/Exegesis,..we see in part etc)....All the Hermeneutics and Exegesis of the world cd not open that book that was sealed by God himself with 7 seals....In Daniel 12:4...The woman cd not get pregnant till the book was opened simply b/c the contents of the book are the seeds of the sower the seeds/words of the bridegroom that is gonna initiate a birth of Christ in everybody ...The manchild in us Sinners....I will know them all from the least to the greatest... Jeremiah 31:34 kjv...She brought forth a manchild that is gonna rule all nations....Thats y Jesus was saying these things are HID ( sealed with 7 seals ) from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes and sucklings...The woman's Children the real H.G. the Children of Promise...As that which Is born of the spirit is spirit which is the spirit of truth the H.G...The manchild.. John 16:13
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
What you are saying makes perfect sense if we were to approach the Bible as merely a collection of writings by different authors communicating to different audiences in there own words about what they understood God was teaching them and wanted them to communicate.
But that is NOT what the Bible is because that is NOT what the Bible declares itself to be. The Bible declares itself to be the very Word of God Himself. And that God Himself is the Word. We cannot separate the two. The mechanics of how God assured that the human scribes spoke and penned exactly the events and information, using exactly the phrases and words, in the original languages, that God desired is ultimately God's business. But we can know for a certainty that it is so because the Bible, the Word of God Himself, declares it to be so.
So therefore, when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic. And God has graciously accommodated us in this matter.
No one would dispute that we must use proper grammatical rules of the original languages as a start. But we must understand that the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter because it ultimately has only ONE AUTHOR. God Himself. And God may and does use a word or a phrase in one part of the Bible to indicate how we He may be using it in other parts of the Bible. "Jerusalem" is a good example.
In my previous posts I have tried to point out some of the scriptures where God defines what our Hermeneutic should be.
We must keep in mind that God has given us the Bible, not as a history book, but to present HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND AND HIS CREATION. And to DEMONSTRATE HIS GLORY. To show us our relationship to God. To demonstrate His perfect Justice and unfathomable Mercy in Salvation. In other words. the GOSPEL
I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.
Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.
Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.
Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.
There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.
Hello Ellen. There is no verse to assist you about 'ushering' (and this I take to mean, to guide folk concerning the Church or to assist them to their seats). This position did not exist in the early Church (as in the New Testament), so there would be no reference to such a service in a Fellowship.
The only references I can think of that the Church can appoint as assistants, are found in Acts 6:1-6, where the apostles felt that their ministry was being diverted from the Word of God to looking after the physical needs of others (such as to the widows needing help). And the other mention of this type of ministry, which comes under the umbrella of 'deacon', or a part of the office of the 'diaconate', is found in 1 Timothy 3:8-13, concerning the character & Christian witness of those men so employed.
Many people read from the Bible and scan over many words without ever knowing what some words mean, such as: iniquities, transgressions, tresspasses and sins. I have heard people say they are all synonymous. If that were true then why wouldn't the scripture just use one word ?
c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.
Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.
b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.
I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).
So, to your three questions:
a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.
If we assume that most people on here mean well and wish to speak about what they know to be true then we can be open to listening. If we do not agree with what someone says, we can respond back or just let it go. Being prayerful is key in discerning if and how to respond. This site is a learning place for us. We learn about the Scriptures and God who inspired them. We learn from and about others. We also learn for and about ourselves as we consider the views of others. I try not to read too much into what somewhat writes, but wish to take posts at face value and believe that the person is being upfront and honest about what they think. I try to speak to what someone has stated and not to what I think is someone's motives or evaluate someone's spiritual walk. I pray for those I interact with on here and especially for the prayer requests of others.
p.2 Ronald Whittemore Rev.19:7-9 (7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for ((the marriage of the Lamb is come)), and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be ((arrayed in fine linen, clean and white)): for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (while True Believers in the Son are at the marriage supper of the Lamb being feed by the Lamb, the wrath of God is being poured out on the non-believers of the Son which were left on the earth. When Jesus returns on a white horse He will end the wrath of God and begin His 1000 year Millennial reign on the earth. Rev.19:11-15 (11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (In verse 8 the wife is clothed in fine linen, clean and white, then in verse 14 the armies that come with Him are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. This is the church coming back with Jesus to start His 1000 year reign! Also at this return He (treadeth the winepress of the fiereness and wrath of Almighty God. The word (treadeth) is #3961; it means to trample, tread (down, under foot) This proves the wrath of God was being poured out on earth during the time of the marriage of the Lamb.
I have enjoyed your' and Chris' discussion and this is not to say I know anything and hope you don't mind. Just another understanding for study. I will only address one thing, being taken to heaven. I believe you and Chris agree on, just at different times.
I love this site and the people on it. The end times: we have been told to endure unto the end and for many of us living today that will be our death before Jesus returns, and how things unveil will not affect us, we will be asleep. What if we are still here when the end starts what are we looking for? Some things have not been revealed, so we must be ready to face anything by standing strong in our faith.
We must with an open mind study with prayer. Like the first thing Jesus said to His disciples on Mount Olive when they asked Him about the temple being destroyed. "Take heed that no man deceive you."
If we are still living when the end starts, what if it is different than what we are looking for? Are the last members of the Church more worthy to be spared than the first members of the Church? Millions of believers have been killed for their faith, by Jews, Romans, other nations, by the Roman Church, and if you read history, they continued the death penalty for what they considered heresy after the reformation, and today they are still being killed for their faith.
In 1 Thess. 4 where the understanding of the rapture of the Church and are taken to heaven. In 1 Thess. 4 the people were concerned the believers who had died will not be resurrected and be part of the kingdom because the ones living would prevent that. Paul's answer in 1 Thess. 4:15-18 was to comfort them that would not happen. It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Where in these verses, does it say after we meet Jesus in the air we go to heaven? No bible verse I have found, in the Old or New, says we go or are taken to heaven after the resurrection.
Am so sorry that was not the intention that you all should now all believe the way you describe it about me.
We who have received the Holy Ghost know and watch out. After all, we go as slaughter victims every day. Many are tormented and bound, and even killed for their faith.
That's what I'm saying, we have the law in our hearts now. Not on stone boards.
Some have not experienced this unfortunately.
Jesus says in Matthew 15:1-20 iv got this today. Dear friend sometime its difficult to wrigt some words. And believe that everyone understands what one means, my fault. Please forgive me Also for the long wait for answers. Have been a bit busy. God bless us all in Jesus holy name, love u in Christ.
Adam and Eve's children would have married each other. Eve is given a prophetical title in Gen 3:20 as, "the mother of all living." There is no law against this at this time and also something different genetically sense people had such long lifespans. Hope that helps.
Mine is just a quick example for you, of a conviction of sin & reception of the Holy Spirit at the point of repentance. But of course, not all who repent or confess or even baptized in water, are necessarily saved. Why? Because we do not know that person's state, his reason for turning to Christ, or him just being on a journey with God, so that what may be repentance now, may some time later be a true repentance leading to salvation & the Gift of the Holy Spirit. So it is possible that a person may repent for his sins often (i.e. feeling sorry for doing wrong & then going back to the old ways; but not having the conviction of sin that causes a complete turn-around & brokenness before God). I think of Acts 3:19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord...". True repentance brings true conversion brings true refreshing now & till Jesus returns.
I will pray for you and others. I myself, need to lose weight and it has been very hard for me due to many painful problems in my feet, knees, hips, and back over the past 5 years or so. Exercising is too painful for me and so I watch what I eat. But losing pounds is a slow process for me. And when I get ill, like you, it is hard to keep at it when one's body is fighting something else.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come to You today in the name of Jesus and ask for Your help concerning losing weight that is causing problems in our bodies. Lead us to a method that will work for the long run, be sustainable over a long time, and cause our body's metabolism to work properly. Lord God, help us to overcome cravings for food that harm us and develop in us a taste for foods that help us, especially food groups that we shy away from in our present diet. Lord, You are sovereign over us, so we ask that You rule our appetites and cause our bodies to lose weight in a healthy way. Father, this is a struggle for many of us, and we need Your power to overcome this problem of being overweight. Heal us from pain that keeps us from activity that will help our metabolism and strengthen our bodies internally and outwardly. Increase our stamina for activity so that we do not get breathless so easily. Help those of us who have asthma that interferes with our ability to exert ourselves to a level to promote metabolic actions that reduce fat in our bodies. We ask that You will help our loved ones support us in our efforts and need to lose weight and cause their love for us to be strong and selfless and likewise our love for them in the same way. We thank you that You love us so and am willing to answer our prayers as You see fit. We are trusting You to help us and to guide us and to work in us to accomplish that which You have as priorities for us to fulfill at this time in our llives. Amen.
I believe the KJV is the best we can have in our language, but if we believe that the "Bible is its own dictionary & its own interpreter" (at least to learn of the deeper spiritual Truths), & then to not use the tools available to us, this will certainly leave us less informed than we can & ought to be.
What I read & understood of Hell as a new believer, is a far cry to what I know now, given the Hebrew/Greek words, contexts, etc. Without this knowledge, any other interpretation is headed for failure. Once we learn this, then understanding the Bible's Truths, with the Spirit's enabling, will be fruitful.
But I will acknowledge this: if an unbeliever reads the Gospel in the Bible for the first time, knowing nothing else, he can certainly receive conviction of sins & shown the path to salvation by the Spirit's Work through the Word. But can that person then give an explanation of why this is so? Most likely not. Only after much studying & related Scripture comparisons, can he learn, digest & apply God's Truth & why his salvation is "so great".
Without these principles, here's what can happen by those who look only to the spiritual, deeper message of the Bible & disregarding any other method to approach them: we can make Hell to mean whatever we think it should mean, there's no hunger to learn what it is supposed to mean when the original languages are referred to, Hell (as many other biblical topics) can be over-spiritualized to apply to anything that we are comfortable with (e.g. since God is a God of perfect Love, His consignment of anyone to an eternal fire is preposterous). And this is only one example; demonstrating that we, who have the Word of God in English, must be cognizant of the many other stages of its development from when God first inspired the original authors to pen those words.
What we now accept as the pure unchangeable Word of God in the KJV is quite different from their original languages. With various copies of the originals made, of translation difficulties (text gathering, text comparison, etc.), of limitations of 'English' words to correctly express the meaning & intent of the original, all guarantee that what we have now does not bear an exact resemblance to the original writings; insofar as correctly expressing the original words into English words/ideas. We can ask any Hebrew or Greek reader, who is proficient in English as well, to verify this - and we are talking about complete accuracy to the original here. Yet, we accept the KJV as God-inspired, when in fact it was the original writings that were so & the KJV has been as faithful as is possible to them.
Thank you David0920 for those added comments. Just to focus on your comment, "when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic", which seems to sum up the point you're making here.
True, ultimately only the Word of God is God's Message to the world, & I believe hermeneutics is only the principle applied so as to enable us to grasp & correctly handle the given Word, so that the Spirit might take us further into knowledge of Truth. All those parts of Hermeneutics are only essential for employing the basic tools to 'rightly divide the Word', but those tools can never in themselves guarantee us access to the true, deeper meanings, but they will give us a proper foundation to proceed. Therefore, as much as it is commendable to you or others to believe that they will resort to no other tool to assist them, except the Bible in their hands, we can see that even this can bring on questions & disputes with others reading the same Scriptures who are dependent on the same Holy Spirit to lead them. I ask, 'why is this so?'
A classic one is whether Hell/Lake of Fire is an actual place of eternal torment or simply expressed in a figurative manner to denote something else quite different. Biblical hermeneutics always demands a literal interpretation (unless the wording in context is metaphorical), it demands that we apply historical, grammatical, contextual principles to Hell to help us know what meaning is intended, and of course, to compare that Scripture with others to learn what God has spoken about it, through other authors.
I feel I have intruded on you and Chris, forgive me if I have.
I will just touch on Matt. 24:40-41. I understand Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are twofold, parts for the disciples for instruction for what they would endure and things leading up to the destruction of the temple and also for who will be living at the end times. In context of the chapter, we see "the coming of the Son of man." three times in this chapter verses 27, 37, and 39.
Matt. 24:27 He will be seen coming as Rev. 1:7. In Matt. 24:29:31 after the tribulation the Son of man coming with power and great glory. Rev. 19:11-16, similar to Joel 2:11, Joel 3:13-17 Zechariah 14:1-9. My understanding this is about the Second Coming of Christ.
In Matt. 24:36 we do not know when and we must be ready, we do not know when our death will be, it could be now. Jesus second coming is after the tribulation of the beast, we must be ready to not be tempted and be strong in our faith to not take the mark to save this flesh. Luke covers Matt.24 40-41 and just before, he adds this. Matt. 16:25 Mk. 8:35
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. God has said He will keep us from this, Rev. 3:10, but for those people who know the truth and refuse to receive it, He will send a delusion, 2 Thes. 2:11-12
In Matt. 24:37-39 as the days of Noah so shall also be the coming of the Son of man, the ones taken away in Noah's time were wicked. Matt.24:40-41 Why would it be the opposite of Noah's time? It is like the wheat and the tares at the end the ones taken will be burned in the lake of fire and the righteous will be left. At Jesus's return, the ones taken before the end will be where the eagles are, Luke 17:37 Ezek. 39:17-20 Rev. 19:17-21 the battle of Armageddon.
This is my understanding you may disagree and that is ok. Those in the first resurrection reign with Jesus on earth and there are only two resurrections.
God bless,
RLW
That is not what I said and certainly not what I meant. God is infinite and the Bible reveals only the character and nature of God that He chooses to reveal to us. Our finite minds could never begin to understand every aspect of the character and nature of God.
But God identifies Himself totally with the Word of God, and the Bible with God Himself. As the Bible declares in John 1.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So can there be any doubt whatsoever that the Bible has ONE AUTHOR, and that is God Himself.
The point I am making is that we MUST come to the Bible recognizing that the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY is GOD'S WORD. Not merely a collection of books ABOUT God's Word by many authors, or merely CONTAINING God's Word. But it is, in fact, THE WORD OF GOD Himself, that God has given us, form Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.
This is not a small or insignificant matter. It is FUNDAMENTAL to understanding what God is teaching as we read and study the Bible.
The Word of God teaches us in 1 Cor. 2:14 that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.
This is why those communicating their messages in this 'forum' so often use the word 'discerning' while the 'Word of God' is not of any private interpretation ( 2 Peter 1:20). This is why it also teaches; that anyone that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man ( 1 Cor. 2:15).
Please remember, the words from the 'Word of God' are according to the 'Spirit of Truth' ( John 14:17). Furthermore, the Spirit of truth cannot be received by this world ( John 14:17) as this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
May we suggest you search the words 'a world deceived' an learn how you may know the difference between the 'natural' and the 'spiritual' body ( 1 Cor. 15:44) and how and by whom this whole world has been deceived ( Rev. 12:9).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
It is God's will for all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4), but not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ( Matthew 7:21).
Many will say unto me that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? ( Matthew 7:22).
And then will I profess unto them I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity ( Matthew 7:23). If you would like to know who by nature your Father is, may we suggest you read John 8::43-45.
But let me be clear so that there is no misunderstanding.
When God writes about a historical event, that record is absolutely true and trustworthily recorded the way it literally occurred. And we can learn some historical and moral and spiritual lessons from the event and the literal record itself without going any deeper.
However, we have not come to the ultimate truth that God is teaching in that record until we have uncovered the underlying Gospel message that God is teaching in the particulars of the event and the words and phrases that God has used to record that event.
And, most importantly, as we seek to uncover the underlying Gospel message by comparing scripture with scripture and allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, our conclusions must harmonize with everything else the Bible declares about that aspect of the Gospel. As God declares the scriptures are "not subject to any private interpretation".
This is not easy to do and takes time and effort to "compare spiritual things with spiritual". And God Himself must open our spiritual eyes to give us understanding in accordance with His will and His time table.
Fortunately God had provided some to be teachers that have taken time and study to do their homework and guide us in this. Of which I most certainly do not claim to be one. But we must recognize that no teacher is infallible and we must check out what they are teaching by going back to the Bible again and again.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures.
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
Chris,
Thank you for responding.
What you are saying makes perfect sense if we were to approach the Bible as merely a collection of writings by different authors communicating to different audiences in there own words about what they understood God was teaching them and wanted them to communicate.
But that is NOT what the Bible is because that is NOT what the Bible declares itself to be. The Bible declares itself to be the very Word of God Himself. And that God Himself is the Word. We cannot separate the two. The mechanics of how God assured that the human scribes spoke and penned exactly the events and information, using exactly the phrases and words, in the original languages, that God desired is ultimately God's business. But we can know for a certainty that it is so because the Bible, the Word of God Himself, declares it to be so.
So therefore, when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic. And God has graciously accommodated us in this matter.
No one would dispute that we must use proper grammatical rules of the original languages as a start. But we must understand that the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter because it ultimately has only ONE AUTHOR. God Himself. And God may and does use a word or a phrase in one part of the Bible to indicate how we He may be using it in other parts of the Bible. "Jerusalem" is a good example.
In my previous posts I have tried to point out some of the scriptures where God defines what our Hermeneutic should be.
We must keep in mind that God has given us the Bible, not as a history book, but to present HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND AND HIS CREATION. And to DEMONSTRATE HIS GLORY. To show us our relationship to God. To demonstrate His perfect Justice and unfathomable Mercy in Salvation. In other words. the GOSPEL
I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.
Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.
Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.
Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.
There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.
The only references I can think of that the Church can appoint as assistants, are found in Acts 6:1-6, where the apostles felt that their ministry was being diverted from the Word of God to looking after the physical needs of others (such as to the widows needing help). And the other mention of this type of ministry, which comes under the umbrella of 'deacon', or a part of the office of the 'diaconate', is found in 1 Timothy 3:8-13, concerning the character & Christian witness of those men so employed.
c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.
Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.
b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.
I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).
So, to your three questions:
a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.
If we assume that most people on here mean well and wish to speak about what they know to be true then we can be open to listening. If we do not agree with what someone says, we can respond back or just let it go. Being prayerful is key in discerning if and how to respond. This site is a learning place for us. We learn about the Scriptures and God who inspired them. We learn from and about others. We also learn for and about ourselves as we consider the views of others. I try not to read too much into what somewhat writes, but wish to take posts at face value and believe that the person is being upfront and honest about what they think. I try to speak to what someone has stated and not to what I think is someone's motives or evaluate someone's spiritual walk. I pray for those I interact with on here and especially for the prayer requests of others.
I have enjoyed your' and Chris' discussion and this is not to say I know anything and hope you don't mind. Just another understanding for study. I will only address one thing, being taken to heaven. I believe you and Chris agree on, just at different times.
I love this site and the people on it. The end times: we have been told to endure unto the end and for many of us living today that will be our death before Jesus returns, and how things unveil will not affect us, we will be asleep. What if we are still here when the end starts what are we looking for? Some things have not been revealed, so we must be ready to face anything by standing strong in our faith.
We must with an open mind study with prayer. Like the first thing Jesus said to His disciples on Mount Olive when they asked Him about the temple being destroyed. "Take heed that no man deceive you."
If we are still living when the end starts, what if it is different than what we are looking for? Are the last members of the Church more worthy to be spared than the first members of the Church? Millions of believers have been killed for their faith, by Jews, Romans, other nations, by the Roman Church, and if you read history, they continued the death penalty for what they considered heresy after the reformation, and today they are still being killed for their faith.
In 1 Thess. 4 where the understanding of the rapture of the Church and are taken to heaven. In 1 Thess. 4 the people were concerned the believers who had died will not be resurrected and be part of the kingdom because the ones living would prevent that. Paul's answer in 1 Thess. 4:15-18 was to comfort them that would not happen. It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Where in these verses, does it say after we meet Jesus in the air we go to heaven? No bible verse I have found, in the Old or New, says we go or are taken to heaven after the resurrection.
Where is the destination of the gathering?
God bless,
RLW
We who have received the Holy Ghost know and watch out. After all, we go as slaughter victims every day. Many are tormented and bound, and even killed for their faith.
That's what I'm saying, we have the law in our hearts now. Not on stone boards.
Some have not experienced this unfortunately.
Jesus says in Matthew 15:1-20 iv got this today. Dear friend sometime its difficult to wrigt some words. And believe that everyone understands what one means, my fault. Please forgive me Also for the long wait for answers. Have been a bit busy. God bless us all in Jesus holy name, love u in Christ.
And let's all put Lord Jesus first of all, Amen
Thx Alex 1900. Goodly word of the Holy Spirit. Love you in Christ.
Matthew 15