Hello David, I included Mr. Camping because he repeatedly set dates for Christ's return and they failed. So , to me that is a false teacher. I can say that I do not know more about him. So, thanks for the info.
Thanks brother Giannis. Thanks for the clarification on this matter. Very helpful.
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
Here's one of many verses in the old testament that suggests a 1000 year reign here on earth.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
God night.
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
I would not include Harold Camping in your list. I listened to Family Radio and Mr. Camping for several years. He was certainly wrong about setting a specific date for Judgement Day and came to recant of the idea that we could know the day.
But he was very accurate in many of the his teaching and particularly in his approach to interpreting the Bible. He was always Vehemently opposed to any extra-biblical revelation of any kind whatsoever. And constantly taught that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only word of God and is to be our ultimate authority. He was a faithful Bible teacher and corrected several of his teachings over time as he continued to search the scriptures.
Many regard him as a false prophet particularly those that remain in the churches. I absolutely do not. But he was not infallible as no Bible teacher is.
David0920 Thats a good point David, that is the truth! Also any verse that speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds is the resurrection, or what's called the rapture.
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
David, Agreed. We need to be very wary of anyone who claims to have revelation outside of Scriptures, especially if these words and ideas are at variance with what has already been revealed in Scripture. We also need to be wary of the religious sects that emerged as a result of people who supposedly received visitations, visions, and audible words from God. In the past few hundred years there have been plenty of these.
I can name some here to warn others:
Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists); Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Amy Semple McPherson (Four Square Gospel), E.W. Kenyon (Theosophist, Meta-physicist), William Branham (Pentecostal Healing, Latter Day Rain, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, One New Man, New Apostolic Reformation), Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts (Healing) Harold Camping (False prophecies), C. Peter Wagner, (false prophet) to name a few.
Perhaps it is good for believers to check out many of the people who have been part of the prophetic, charismatic, pentecostal, Signs and Wonders movements of the past 200 years. This can be eye opening and lead believers to come to reject the teachings, written books, etc. of such false teachers and also the movements, sects, they founded.
I am not trying to beat up on anyone or any one group in particular. It is just those in these groups have produced so much of the error in the church today.
Chris Thank you for your reply. You think the Last days started 2000 years ago? In 2.Tim.3:1-4 we are told how people will be in the last days. Do you think these verses are meaning the last 2000 years, or the time period just before the return of Jesus? Many scriptures can have a double meaning as you know Chris, for that present time, and also have a prophetic meaning for another time period. You also said those who were sealed in Eph.1:13 are not the same as those who are sealed in Rev.7:3-4? You could be right on that Chris. But then again you could be wrong. You did say in a previous comment those saved during the great tribulation would only have the Word of God, didn't you? In Eph.1:13 It says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ((ye heard the word of truth)), the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." These had to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation before they believed, (THEN) they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That could be the same Chris. Now to move to the marriage of the Lamb. You say its not a critical matter of teaching, especially in this subject we've been discussing, of the rapture and the great tribulation? I would have to disagree Chris and here's why. We have to see a timeline from our interpretation of the Lastdays, or if you want to call it the Endtimes, scriptures. Many scriptures are prophecy for the time period just before the return of Jesus Christ. The marriage of the Lamb could only happen (when keeping verses in context) at the same time the wrath of God is being poured out on those left on the earth. When the marriage supper ends and Christ returns riding a white horse it ends the wrath of God and starts His 1000 year reign on the earth. Read Rev.19:7-15 The marriage supper, The return riding a white horse to the earth, v.15 He treadeth, (puts down) or ends the wrath of GOD. It is the timeline when kept in context! Thank you again Chris.
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
Just know that Disability does not pay much more that what your normal Social Security amount will be. So, please check into this because it may not be enough for you to meet all of your monthly needs at this time in your life. If your job pays more, perhaps that may be the best unless you are very close to retirement age. The more wages you earn the more your Social Security you will receive when you reach retirement age.
Even so, I will keep your requests in my prayers. You have been through so much. It must be hard and so stressful besides all of the pain.
The destruction of Jerusalem was the definitive action of God to show the Jews that, whether they like it or not, the Levitical sacrificial system was ended. Whether they accept Jesus or not, any animal sacrifice or offering according to the Levitical laws were not longer acceptable to God, since Jesus fulfilled all of these means of forgiveness of sins infinitely in the shedding of His blood and the giving of His sinless life for the sins of mankind.
The "specialness" of the Jews was also ended in that in Jesus both Jew and Gentile are chosen by God as His elect royal priesthood and princes with Jesus as our eternal High Priest. (as it says in Hebrews). It is true that the nation of Israel was chosen in OT times to be the means through which God brings forth the Messiah, but once Messiah came (Jesus) their special purpose was finished. We are all now equally elect of God.
I have always thought it strange that the Jews have been so sure of their "specialness" but do not seem to esteem the Israelites of the the other tribes as equally as "special". It is as if they have denounced their own brethren. There are millions of millions of Israelites scattered among the nations of the world along with millions of Jews, too. The Israelites of the other tribes most likely do not know their ancient heritage as they mixed their genes with the gene pool of all the surrounding nations through intermarriage.
But the Jews, who were in captivity for a much shorter amount of time, kept their gene pool more separate from the other nations and continued to practice the Judaism that came out of the Babylonian exile (which was very different from the religion and culture of the Israelites that entered the promised land with Joshua after being freed from Egypt, covenanting with YHWH on Mt. Sinai, and wandered in the desert for 40 years.
I do not believe as the Dispensationalists do concerning Israel and the church.
Dear David, I do agree with much of what you say but differ in these ways:
Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.
I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.
I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.
This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.
Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple
oops... ran out of room..... to pick up from where I left off....
..sent by both the Father and the Son. Jesus saying that "We" will make our home in believers speaking of the Spirit, the Father and Himself as plural ( John 14:23). At Jesus' baptism, Jesus was present in the water of the Jordan, the Father spoke from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus visibly. When Jesus prayed, He prayed to His Father and also the Holy Spirit resided in Jesus without measure. At the transfiguration, Jesus was present and also the Father spoke from heaven. Before Jesus ascended He breathed upon the disciples and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit (who was a separate Person than Jesus).
These recorded instances are strong Scriptural evidence that God is one Being who exists as three Persons. Not three different gods, but One True God and also three Persons in union with one another.
It is a mystery, but that does not mean it can be said to be untrue, only that we cannot understand this aspect of the One True God fully, but, instead, we believe what Scripture says by faith, not by sight or reason.
She is a false teacher. I would advise you to end your interactions with her.
Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when we first believe. In fact, it is the Holy Spirit who works in us to regenerate us according to His wisdom and power. He also implants faith in use to be able to believe the Gospel. From our perspective it seems like we chose to believe, which saves us. But really it is all the work of God in us to bring us to believe-all a gift of grace.
The Holy Spirit also indwells us at conversion, connects us to the Father in right relationship, sets us within Jesus as a member of His body, and goes on to work holiness in us over the rest of our earthly life, which is sanctification.
I am glad that you are moving closer to God in your day to day life. I am 66 and have been a believer all of my life. Truly, your baptism at 12 was all you needed to obey the command of Jesus, but there is nothing in Scripture that prohibits a subsequent water baptism when one comes to have amore mature grasp on one's need for Jesus and understand more what one's conversion means.
The beliefs that we are to baptize only in Jesus' name; the rejection of the trinitarian nature of God, and that only those who speak in tongues have the Holy Spirit indwelling are all part of the Oneness Pentecostal sect, which is a very recently emerged sect from the past century that came from the turn of the century Pentecostalism of the early 1900's - 1930's. These teachings grouped together have not been taught until this time.
Paul warns us about anyone who preaches a different Gospel that what he preached, especially those who add something that is needed in addition to what was preached by him. Also, the "Oneness" of God doctrine that Donna brought up does not agree with what God revealed in the New Testament with Jesus being one with God, but also the Son of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, being God but being sent
I can't believe this question actually came up. I was told this last night for the 1st time Ever heard in my Life. Baptized at 12 in Baptist to again 2021 due to ongoing warefare generational etc. At 60 yrs old just felt need to do because so much changes to all the negative bad experiences home storms to ones coming around just robbed to even homeowners. Then Generational more. I have Always have carried Spirit to hear see to discernment now big time. This lady had blown me away telling me my sins weren't forgiven if not baptized in Jesus name. Said all had to do with Catholic we're demons. I'm so glad you posted this as I've wanted all day to ask someone. Thank You, Always a Christian more so than EVER SINCE 2020. KNOW I'M NOT SINNING KNOWINGLY REPENT DAILY BC NOT PERFECT. She's suppose to be Evagalist Apolitical? Just met? I'm drawn to Prophecies. Also told me if I didn't speak in tounges I couldn't have the Holy Spirit. Unbelievable
I believe Jesus is our greatest advocate for a life of peace and contentment. I feel the love of God and Jesus and the love of myself the most when I repent and improve my life. I am glad that Jesus and John the Baptist spoke about repentance when they first started teaching. I love repentance and true improvement and preparation for meeting God after this life.
Throughout the Old Testament and of the shadows of the Son of Man you will see that God had always ordained a plan of redemption to be made for mankind after the fall. This is why God would provide a lamb to be slain in Genesis when Abraham offered his son Isaac as a burnt offering. Or how Judah wanted to intercede for Benjamin's captivity in Egypt or even how Moses wanted to die for the children of Israel when they committed the grave sin of worshiping another god despite their recent commitment. God did not want man to suffer for another man, instead he sent his own begotten Son to intercede for us,
through the punishment and fulfillment of the cross and the judgment of sin, where he became sin for us. Now that it is done, God has completed His plan of salvation for us and all we have to do is believe; and this is his grace and the new covenant which is his body and his blood.
God had already shown Adam and Eve that when they were in their fallen state and were without the Spirit of God (for He had left the moment they sinned to eat the fruit), He clothed them when they were naked and provided for them. He had to kill animals and taught them and their generations that there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. For it is written in Leviticus 17:11; "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
Now there is one whose life and blood is more precious than that of bulls and goats; which is he who is life itself: Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice that was made, is made once and lasts forever, and there shall be no more need or time when a new sacrifice needs to be made. Jesus had come in the flesh to tell us these things, to tell us the truth about him because he and the Father are one and he came to show us the Father himself. "Jesus answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6
I likely will not continue this dialog because I'm have difficulty understanding what you are trying to communicate. The impression I get is that you believe God is still speaking to mankind outside of the Bible, perhaps in a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue. And that you believe we are to understand what God is teaching primarily from these extra-biblical revelations. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is true that God spoke directly to individuals beginning at creation until very early in the New Testament period. As He was doing this God was actually writing His Word, the Bible itself; communicating His plan for mankind and the world, establishing His Law, and presenting His Gospel which is God's Judgment upon all of mankind for sin (our disobedience to His Law) and His Mercy in Salvation for His Elect (His payment for their sin and the inheritance that awaits them).
Once God completed the Bible, any direct communication to individuals ceased. And God very clearly set forth the command that we are not to ADD TO nor TAKE AWAY FROM God's Word, the Bible ( Rev 22:18,19). And He specified very sever penalties if we violate that principle.
Therefore, The Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRITY is and remains God's only direct communication with mankind once the Bible was completed.
God does declare in the Bible that He will open our understanding of the Bible, in accordance with His will and on His timetable, as we read and study the Bible applying the principles that He has established in His Word, the Bible.
May that be so in your life by God's Mercy and in accordance with His sovereign will.
You will not go to hell if you trust God and what He has done for you. You see, God the Father sent his begotten Son who is Jesus Christ (also known as the Word) into the world so that he can receive it back. Jesus Christ was the lamb that was slain for the sins of mankind, which includes you and me; so that God's justice and God's wrath could be fulfilled. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and knew no sin, but still became sin for us because in such a way God loves the world, so that he himself will receive punishment instead of us. Now that Jesus Christ is risen and proclaimed Lord according to his resurrection, it is known that he has victory over death and that all who believe in him will appear like him. If you believe that He died for your sins and shed His blood for your forgiveness, you are saved and adopted into God's family by the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
In this dispensation, known as the Church Age, it was revealed to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for it was the mystery that was not revealed to others beforehand. The Church is the body of Christ placed to be a light to the world until the day of the Lord; which is God's wrath during the seven year tribulation and his second part of the second coming at the battle of Armageddon.
God has placed every believer in his body, just as he is the head of the body, and every member is like its members, and he will never forsake them. This means that all those who believe today and are saved will never be forsaken, as Jesus himself said in John 10:28; "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
In this way, you can be sure that if you have put your trust in Christ alone and in the work of salvation performed on Calvary's cross with His blood, you are saved and you will never perish.
Brother S. Spencer. I was shocked to read that you felt that I implied that you demeaned Jimbob. That was not my intent at all. I was merely stating the attitude that we all should take with one another, especially when conversations like this can get quite long. My apologies if I have offended you - I would never think of doing that - you have always been courteous. I beg your forgiveness brother.
I do understand your concern regarding "parables" and I will again try to explain, perhaps with examples, how I believe God is directing us to interpret the Bible in this regard.
I also want to address in some detail my understanding of God's Judgment Program which is now quite different than what has been understood and taught throughout the Church Age. I will do this in a separate post, perhaps several. This focuses in on another principle that God very clearly sets forth in the Bible that there are certain truths in the Bible that have been sealed up until the end and are being opened up during this time. All coming directly from the Bible. The passages you reference, particularly in Luke and our understanding of how God uses the word "torment", will be pivotal in that discussion.
I will close now and try to get to some of this today.
When we are down to nothing, God is up to something!
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
God night.
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
I would not include Harold Camping in your list. I listened to Family Radio and Mr. Camping for several years. He was certainly wrong about setting a specific date for Judgement Day and came to recant of the idea that we could know the day.
But he was very accurate in many of the his teaching and particularly in his approach to interpreting the Bible. He was always Vehemently opposed to any extra-biblical revelation of any kind whatsoever. And constantly taught that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only word of God and is to be our ultimate authority. He was a faithful Bible teacher and corrected several of his teachings over time as he continued to search the scriptures.
Many regard him as a false prophet particularly those that remain in the churches. I absolutely do not. But he was not infallible as no Bible teacher is.
I was responding to you saying
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
Thanks in advance and God bless.
I can name some here to warn others:
Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists); Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Amy Semple McPherson (Four Square Gospel), E.W. Kenyon (Theosophist, Meta-physicist), William Branham (Pentecostal Healing, Latter Day Rain, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, One New Man, New Apostolic Reformation), Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts (Healing) Harold Camping (False prophecies), C. Peter Wagner, (false prophet) to name a few.
Perhaps it is good for believers to check out many of the people who have been part of the prophetic, charismatic, pentecostal, Signs and Wonders movements of the past 200 years. This can be eye opening and lead believers to come to reject the teachings, written books, etc. of such false teachers and also the movements, sects, they founded.
I am not trying to beat up on anyone or any one group in particular. It is just those in these groups have produced so much of the error in the church today.
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
Just know that Disability does not pay much more that what your normal Social Security amount will be. So, please check into this because it may not be enough for you to meet all of your monthly needs at this time in your life. If your job pays more, perhaps that may be the best unless you are very close to retirement age. The more wages you earn the more your Social Security you will receive when you reach retirement age.
Even so, I will keep your requests in my prayers. You have been through so much. It must be hard and so stressful besides all of the pain.
The destruction of Jerusalem was the definitive action of God to show the Jews that, whether they like it or not, the Levitical sacrificial system was ended. Whether they accept Jesus or not, any animal sacrifice or offering according to the Levitical laws were not longer acceptable to God, since Jesus fulfilled all of these means of forgiveness of sins infinitely in the shedding of His blood and the giving of His sinless life for the sins of mankind.
The "specialness" of the Jews was also ended in that in Jesus both Jew and Gentile are chosen by God as His elect royal priesthood and princes with Jesus as our eternal High Priest. (as it says in Hebrews). It is true that the nation of Israel was chosen in OT times to be the means through which God brings forth the Messiah, but once Messiah came (Jesus) their special purpose was finished. We are all now equally elect of God.
I have always thought it strange that the Jews have been so sure of their "specialness" but do not seem to esteem the Israelites of the the other tribes as equally as "special". It is as if they have denounced their own brethren. There are millions of millions of Israelites scattered among the nations of the world along with millions of Jews, too. The Israelites of the other tribes most likely do not know their ancient heritage as they mixed their genes with the gene pool of all the surrounding nations through intermarriage.
But the Jews, who were in captivity for a much shorter amount of time, kept their gene pool more separate from the other nations and continued to practice the Judaism that came out of the Babylonian exile (which was very different from the religion and culture of the Israelites that entered the promised land with Joshua after being freed from Egypt, covenanting with YHWH on Mt. Sinai, and wandered in the desert for 40 years.
I do not believe as the Dispensationalists do concerning Israel and the church.
Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.
I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.
I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.
This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.
Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple
oops... ran out of room..... to pick up from where I left off....
..sent by both the Father and the Son. Jesus saying that "We" will make our home in believers speaking of the Spirit, the Father and Himself as plural ( John 14:23). At Jesus' baptism, Jesus was present in the water of the Jordan, the Father spoke from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus visibly. When Jesus prayed, He prayed to His Father and also the Holy Spirit resided in Jesus without measure. At the transfiguration, Jesus was present and also the Father spoke from heaven. Before Jesus ascended He breathed upon the disciples and said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit (who was a separate Person than Jesus).
These recorded instances are strong Scriptural evidence that God is one Being who exists as three Persons. Not three different gods, but One True God and also three Persons in union with one another.
It is a mystery, but that does not mean it can be said to be untrue, only that we cannot understand this aspect of the One True God fully, but, instead, we believe what Scripture says by faith, not by sight or reason.
You are right to be wary of this woman.
She is a false teacher. I would advise you to end your interactions with her.
Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when we first believe. In fact, it is the Holy Spirit who works in us to regenerate us according to His wisdom and power. He also implants faith in use to be able to believe the Gospel. From our perspective it seems like we chose to believe, which saves us. But really it is all the work of God in us to bring us to believe-all a gift of grace.
The Holy Spirit also indwells us at conversion, connects us to the Father in right relationship, sets us within Jesus as a member of His body, and goes on to work holiness in us over the rest of our earthly life, which is sanctification.
I am glad that you are moving closer to God in your day to day life. I am 66 and have been a believer all of my life. Truly, your baptism at 12 was all you needed to obey the command of Jesus, but there is nothing in Scripture that prohibits a subsequent water baptism when one comes to have amore mature grasp on one's need for Jesus and understand more what one's conversion means.
The beliefs that we are to baptize only in Jesus' name; the rejection of the trinitarian nature of God, and that only those who speak in tongues have the Holy Spirit indwelling are all part of the Oneness Pentecostal sect, which is a very recently emerged sect from the past century that came from the turn of the century Pentecostalism of the early 1900's - 1930's. These teachings grouped together have not been taught until this time.
Paul warns us about anyone who preaches a different Gospel that what he preached, especially those who add something that is needed in addition to what was preached by him. Also, the "Oneness" of God doctrine that Donna brought up does not agree with what God revealed in the New Testament with Jesus being one with God, but also the Son of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, being God but being sent
Thank You By: ChosenChildofGod
through the punishment and fulfillment of the cross and the judgment of sin, where he became sin for us. Now that it is done, God has completed His plan of salvation for us and all we have to do is believe; and this is his grace and the new covenant which is his body and his blood.
God had already shown Adam and Eve that when they were in their fallen state and were without the Spirit of God (for He had left the moment they sinned to eat the fruit), He clothed them when they were naked and provided for them. He had to kill animals and taught them and their generations that there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. For it is written in Leviticus 17:11; "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
Now there is one whose life and blood is more precious than that of bulls and goats; which is he who is life itself: Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice that was made, is made once and lasts forever, and there shall be no more need or time when a new sacrifice needs to be made. Jesus had come in the flesh to tell us these things, to tell us the truth about him because he and the Father are one and he came to show us the Father himself. "Jesus answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6
I likely will not continue this dialog because I'm have difficulty understanding what you are trying to communicate. The impression I get is that you believe God is still speaking to mankind outside of the Bible, perhaps in a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue. And that you believe we are to understand what God is teaching primarily from these extra-biblical revelations. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is true that God spoke directly to individuals beginning at creation until very early in the New Testament period. As He was doing this God was actually writing His Word, the Bible itself; communicating His plan for mankind and the world, establishing His Law, and presenting His Gospel which is God's Judgment upon all of mankind for sin (our disobedience to His Law) and His Mercy in Salvation for His Elect (His payment for their sin and the inheritance that awaits them).
Once God completed the Bible, any direct communication to individuals ceased. And God very clearly set forth the command that we are not to ADD TO nor TAKE AWAY FROM God's Word, the Bible ( Rev 22:18,19). And He specified very sever penalties if we violate that principle.
Therefore, The Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRITY is and remains God's only direct communication with mankind once the Bible was completed.
God does declare in the Bible that He will open our understanding of the Bible, in accordance with His will and on His timetable, as we read and study the Bible applying the principles that He has established in His Word, the Bible.
May that be so in your life by God's Mercy and in accordance with His sovereign will.
In this dispensation, known as the Church Age, it was revealed to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for it was the mystery that was not revealed to others beforehand. The Church is the body of Christ placed to be a light to the world until the day of the Lord; which is God's wrath during the seven year tribulation and his second part of the second coming at the battle of Armageddon.
God has placed every believer in his body, just as he is the head of the body, and every member is like its members, and he will never forsake them. This means that all those who believe today and are saved will never be forsaken, as Jesus himself said in John 10:28; "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
In this way, you can be sure that if you have put your trust in Christ alone and in the work of salvation performed on Calvary's cross with His blood, you are saved and you will never perish.
I do understand your concern regarding "parables" and I will again try to explain, perhaps with examples, how I believe God is directing us to interpret the Bible in this regard.
I also want to address in some detail my understanding of God's Judgment Program which is now quite different than what has been understood and taught throughout the Church Age. I will do this in a separate post, perhaps several. This focuses in on another principle that God very clearly sets forth in the Bible that there are certain truths in the Bible that have been sealed up until the end and are being opened up during this time. All coming directly from the Bible. The passages you reference, particularly in Luke and our understanding of how God uses the word "torment", will be pivotal in that discussion.
I will close now and try to get to some of this today.