I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.
So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.
Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.
I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.
So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).
With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".
yes he did. I think that Chris gave the Scripture reference. Some say these may have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. Therefore they would be older than Jesus. Others, like myself, believe that Mary and Joseph had these children together.
We just will never really know until we get to heaven.
John 8:36 assures us that with the Son we are "free indeed". Freedom; in short is opposite of what the world follows as we are slaves or bondservants of Christ ( 1 Cor. 4; 7). To follow the prince of this world and all its temporary pleasures is, in reality; a dead end whereas His riches in glory for those who love Him are eternal for those saints which are already seated with Him in "heavenly places." ( Eph. 2:6).
When seeking His will and petitioning prayers; it is His Covenant promises which we can tenaciously proclaim as it is His binding contract with His people that He has made with His good pleasure. This is certainly different than just seeking those things that seem most convenient to make us more comfortable in this life. It truly is best when His life is the guide to our lives and He can be the "captain" of our salvation ( Hebrews 2:10). It is this or being shipwrecked; as it were which is a warning for those who fall away ( 1 Timothy 1:9 as a general admonition along with specific individuals in other Pauline writings).
It is helpful, therefore to have brothers more mature in the faith as "iron sharpens iron." ( Proverbs 27:17). We should also have our individual walk grow to maturity with our quiet times; prayer life and devotionals. John 6:45 shows that we shall all be taught of God; so we should learn to discern His voice from the cacaphony that rings in our ears.
As adopted sons of God ( Gal. 4:5) we are granted therefore all the blessings and substance of the inheritance. The eternal riches in Glory certainly outweigh any earthly pleasures ( 2 Cor. 4:17). We should strive therefore to remain steadfast and remain in His will. The flesh is dying daily in terms of the outward man (see previous verse 16) but the inward man is being conformed to His image. (see Romans 12:2). To deny ungodliness is true freedom ( Titus 2:12) despite our natural affections that seem to indicate the contrary.
Thank you for this information on the "last days." I agree with you that " Acts 2:17,18 is very applicable to the 'last days'."
There are two what are called "platform phrases" on which this message is built on. In Verse 17, it says "And it shall come to pass." In the Greek text it says "And it will be." And in Verse 21, it says "And it shall come to pass," and it's literally "And it will be!" Those would be the two platform verses!
So Verse 17 says and it will be in the last days. Now in Joel's prophecy ( Joel 2:28, 29), it just says afterward. Peter changed it to last days. What he is saying is that in Joel's prophecy, when he said after the judgments here, there will be another judgment day.
He meant now. So my understanding is that the theological or biblical definition of the "last days" begins here in Acts Chapter 2. From Acts Chapter 2 on, we've been in the last days for some 2,000 years.
In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit. Twice now, he's going to say this. I'm going to pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And then he says even on my servants and on my handmaidens, slaves, both male and female, I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: That is, speak the word of God!
I had almost forgotten about Harold Camping. Listening to him on the radio I remember though, how convinced he was according to his calculations he concocted from the bible. He had a rather rudeness when someone disagreed and challenged him, and would consistently cut them off, responding with an, "EXCUSE ME!", then continue with his rambling ,and then disconnect the caller so that they couldn't finish what they had to say.
He actually spent quite a lot of money on billboards along the main S.F Bay Area highways, proclaiming the "end". The sad part, though, is that some very gullible, afraid followers made prior arrangements by ridding themselves of all their belongings, as they were convinced he was telling the truth. I now wonder how this may have affected these people in a negative way in regards to their relationship with God.
Hi David....Lemme give ya my slant on the bible the written word....The lesser light....Its only Jesus that is the light of the world... John 5 :39...Jesus said to Search the scriptures in them you think you have eternal life but it is them that testify of me....Who testifies of Jesus ?...The living word the H.G....The anointing....The gift of God....David....it was the living word Christ Jesus that had to die to initiate a New Covenant in his blood....At Calvary....Not paper and ink....David WAKE UP ...God is much more then paper and ink..And God is gonna pour out of his spirit on all flesh...like it or not... Joel 2:28 kjv....His Kingdom can only come by the LIVING WORD the contents of that book of life in the father's right hand....Behold the lamb of God taketh away the world....The bible in its self which is precious cd neva take away the sins of the world....Jesus is that Living Word much greater then the bible the lesser light..
....David Its not the bible the written word that died for the sins of the world....But the living word Jesus ...David there are zillions of bibles in this world...But this world is in gross darkness as Isaiah said....Darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl...But we have millions of bibles....But without the H.G. the spirit we have nothin....There is no eternal without the H.G. the living word....That N.C. in his blood at Calvary.....David its not the bible that is gonna rule all nations with a rod of iron....But the manchild the H.G that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and righteousness etc...The woman giving birth to the manchild which is that spirit of truth the living word is gonna rule all nations.. Rev 12:10....Not the bible ...The O.C.
.....David when you say that the bible is God....You are in essence saying that God is paper and ink.....How sick is that....Stay away from ppl like Mr camping....Focus on the H.G. the Manchild that is gonna rule all nations..That N.C....GBU David
Jesus was amazing. He was willing to be crucified for our sins. How many of us would be willing to do such a thing. It scares me; I would not want to be in his shoes.
Hi Burney. "Divers" is just an old spelling for 'diverse'. And as you know, 'diverse' means 'of different kinds or forms'. So in Luke 21:11, "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences...", would mean 'there would be high intensity earthquakes in many different locations throughout the World.'
Thank you GiGi. No offence at all taken dear Sister - there's been a lot of hair-splitting going on already to try to come to grips & understand our various beliefs on this subject.
The issue here is: when are the "Spirit and the church" removed? I think you have been following these comments, so probably no need to revisit my input & Scriptures in support. And of course, bro S. Spencer is engaged in discussion with you as well, providing much of my own thoughts on the matter.
I understand that your sense is that the Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, but possibly, Michael. Then going back to 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7: the Church at that time knew all about this Restrainer, but the Church today is in the dark. Since the "mystery of iniquity (or, of lawlessness)" was already evident & at work, the one restraining these 'acts of lawlessness' from appearing in the one who is personified as the epitome of rejection of all of God's Laws, would have to already been active throughout the ages. Can this then be Michael?
Would the archangel be so empowered to restrain the iniquities of the world in such a manner for such a long period so that it would not come to fruition in the person of that Wicked one (anti-Christ, coming in the authority & power of Satan)? This may be possible, but seems highly improbable, rather that God Himself has kept the world from sinking into the mire of full-blown depravity awaiting the day of His abandonment of the World to Satan, that His Judgement against the World, culminating at the final outpouring of His Wrath & battle, might be seen & justified.
You said that it is 2 Thessalonians 4 where dispensationalists find the doctrine of the rapture. I interpret that as the second coming after the tribulation.
You said that one cannot hang a doctrine on one verse, but here you admitted to doing so.
I have considered the dispensational viewpoint from many angles Scripturally and cannot attest to it being true.
I have read the Scriptures fairly thoroughly about the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints and conclude that He comes after the tribulation and gathers ALL saints at this time, not at a pre-trib rapture and then gathers more at s coming in the clouds after the tribulation and then gathers again those from the millennial reign.
I just don't think the Scriptures teach this anywhere. But I can find many Scriptures that say that Jesus comes again (once) after tribulation and then gathers the saints. I posted some Scriptures in my previous post. So, I do not hang my doctrine on one verse in Scripture.
I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.
I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.
And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.
Hello David, I included Mr. Camping because he repeatedly set dates for Christ's return and they failed. So , to me that is a false teacher. I can say that I do not know more about him. So, thanks for the info.
Thanks brother Giannis. Thanks for the clarification on this matter. Very helpful.
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
Here's one of many verses in the old testament that suggests a 1000 year reign here on earth.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
God night.
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
I would not include Harold Camping in your list. I listened to Family Radio and Mr. Camping for several years. He was certainly wrong about setting a specific date for Judgement Day and came to recant of the idea that we could know the day.
But he was very accurate in many of the his teaching and particularly in his approach to interpreting the Bible. He was always Vehemently opposed to any extra-biblical revelation of any kind whatsoever. And constantly taught that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only word of God and is to be our ultimate authority. He was a faithful Bible teacher and corrected several of his teachings over time as he continued to search the scriptures.
Many regard him as a false prophet particularly those that remain in the churches. I absolutely do not. But he was not infallible as no Bible teacher is.
David0920 Thats a good point David, that is the truth! Also any verse that speaks of Jesus coming in the clouds is the resurrection, or what's called the rapture.
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
David, Agreed. We need to be very wary of anyone who claims to have revelation outside of Scriptures, especially if these words and ideas are at variance with what has already been revealed in Scripture. We also need to be wary of the religious sects that emerged as a result of people who supposedly received visitations, visions, and audible words from God. In the past few hundred years there have been plenty of these.
I can name some here to warn others:
Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists); Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Amy Semple McPherson (Four Square Gospel), E.W. Kenyon (Theosophist, Meta-physicist), William Branham (Pentecostal Healing, Latter Day Rain, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, One New Man, New Apostolic Reformation), Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts (Healing) Harold Camping (False prophecies), C. Peter Wagner, (false prophet) to name a few.
Perhaps it is good for believers to check out many of the people who have been part of the prophetic, charismatic, pentecostal, Signs and Wonders movements of the past 200 years. This can be eye opening and lead believers to come to reject the teachings, written books, etc. of such false teachers and also the movements, sects, they founded.
I am not trying to beat up on anyone or any one group in particular. It is just those in these groups have produced so much of the error in the church today.
Chris Thank you for your reply. You think the Last days started 2000 years ago? In 2.Tim.3:1-4 we are told how people will be in the last days. Do you think these verses are meaning the last 2000 years, or the time period just before the return of Jesus? Many scriptures can have a double meaning as you know Chris, for that present time, and also have a prophetic meaning for another time period. You also said those who were sealed in Eph.1:13 are not the same as those who are sealed in Rev.7:3-4? You could be right on that Chris. But then again you could be wrong. You did say in a previous comment those saved during the great tribulation would only have the Word of God, didn't you? In Eph.1:13 It says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ((ye heard the word of truth)), the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." These had to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation before they believed, (THEN) they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That could be the same Chris. Now to move to the marriage of the Lamb. You say its not a critical matter of teaching, especially in this subject we've been discussing, of the rapture and the great tribulation? I would have to disagree Chris and here's why. We have to see a timeline from our interpretation of the Lastdays, or if you want to call it the Endtimes, scriptures. Many scriptures are prophecy for the time period just before the return of Jesus Christ. The marriage of the Lamb could only happen (when keeping verses in context) at the same time the wrath of God is being poured out on those left on the earth. When the marriage supper ends and Christ returns riding a white horse it ends the wrath of God and starts His 1000 year reign on the earth. Read Rev.19:7-15 The marriage supper, The return riding a white horse to the earth, v.15 He treadeth, (puts down) or ends the wrath of GOD. It is the timeline when kept in context! Thank you again Chris.
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
Just know that Disability does not pay much more that what your normal Social Security amount will be. So, please check into this because it may not be enough for you to meet all of your monthly needs at this time in your life. If your job pays more, perhaps that may be the best unless you are very close to retirement age. The more wages you earn the more your Social Security you will receive when you reach retirement age.
Even so, I will keep your requests in my prayers. You have been through so much. It must be hard and so stressful besides all of the pain.
I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.
So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.
Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.
I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.
So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).
With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".
yes he did. I think that Chris gave the Scripture reference. Some say these may have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. Therefore they would be older than Jesus. Others, like myself, believe that Mary and Joseph had these children together.
We just will never really know until we get to heaven.
I just read this passage. Such good instructions for all of us!
Did Jesus have Siblings by Joseph & Mary? If so, where in Scripture can i find it to read in KJV Bible?
Sincerely, Kristi A Wright :)
When seeking His will and petitioning prayers; it is His Covenant promises which we can tenaciously proclaim as it is His binding contract with His people that He has made with His good pleasure. This is certainly different than just seeking those things that seem most convenient to make us more comfortable in this life. It truly is best when His life is the guide to our lives and He can be the "captain" of our salvation ( Hebrews 2:10). It is this or being shipwrecked; as it were which is a warning for those who fall away ( 1 Timothy 1:9 as a general admonition along with specific individuals in other Pauline writings).
It is helpful, therefore to have brothers more mature in the faith as "iron sharpens iron." ( Proverbs 27:17). We should also have our individual walk grow to maturity with our quiet times; prayer life and devotionals. John 6:45 shows that we shall all be taught of God; so we should learn to discern His voice from the cacaphony that rings in our ears.
As adopted sons of God ( Gal. 4:5) we are granted therefore all the blessings and substance of the inheritance. The eternal riches in Glory certainly outweigh any earthly pleasures ( 2 Cor. 4:17). We should strive therefore to remain steadfast and remain in His will. The flesh is dying daily in terms of the outward man (see previous verse 16) but the inward man is being conformed to His image. (see Romans 12:2). To deny ungodliness is true freedom ( Titus 2:12) despite our natural affections that seem to indicate the contrary.
Thank you for this information on the "last days." I agree with you that " Acts 2:17,18 is very applicable to the 'last days'."
There are two what are called "platform phrases" on which this message is built on. In Verse 17, it says "And it shall come to pass." In the Greek text it says "And it will be." And in Verse 21, it says "And it shall come to pass," and it's literally "And it will be!" Those would be the two platform verses!
So Verse 17 says and it will be in the last days. Now in Joel's prophecy ( Joel 2:28, 29), it just says afterward. Peter changed it to last days. What he is saying is that in Joel's prophecy, when he said after the judgments here, there will be another judgment day.
He meant now. So my understanding is that the theological or biblical definition of the "last days" begins here in Acts Chapter 2. From Acts Chapter 2 on, we've been in the last days for some 2,000 years.
In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit. Twice now, he's going to say this. I'm going to pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And then he says even on my servants and on my handmaidens, slaves, both male and female, I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: That is, speak the word of God!
Thanks again and God Bless!
I had almost forgotten about Harold Camping. Listening to him on the radio I remember though, how convinced he was according to his calculations he concocted from the bible. He had a rather rudeness when someone disagreed and challenged him, and would consistently cut them off, responding with an, "EXCUSE ME!", then continue with his rambling ,and then disconnect the caller so that they couldn't finish what they had to say.
He actually spent quite a lot of money on billboards along the main S.F Bay Area highways, proclaiming the "end". The sad part, though, is that some very gullible, afraid followers made prior arrangements by ridding themselves of all their belongings, as they were convinced he was telling the truth. I now wonder how this may have affected these people in a negative way in regards to their relationship with God.
GOD IS
Blessings.
....David Its not the bible the written word that died for the sins of the world....But the living word Jesus ...David there are zillions of bibles in this world...But this world is in gross darkness as Isaiah said....Darkness shall cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl...But we have millions of bibles....But without the H.G. the spirit we have nothin....There is no eternal without the H.G. the living word....That N.C. in his blood at Calvary.....David its not the bible that is gonna rule all nations with a rod of iron....But the manchild the H.G that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of sin and righteousness etc...The woman giving birth to the manchild which is that spirit of truth the living word is gonna rule all nations.. Rev 12:10....Not the bible ...The O.C.
.....David when you say that the bible is God....You are in essence saying that God is paper and ink.....How sick is that....Stay away from ppl like Mr camping....Focus on the H.G. the Manchild that is gonna rule all nations..That N.C....GBU David
Thank you GiGi. No offence at all taken dear Sister - there's been a lot of hair-splitting going on already to try to come to grips & understand our various beliefs on this subject.
The issue here is: when are the "Spirit and the church" removed? I think you have been following these comments, so probably no need to revisit my input & Scriptures in support. And of course, bro S. Spencer is engaged in discussion with you as well, providing much of my own thoughts on the matter.
I understand that your sense is that the Restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, but possibly, Michael. Then going back to 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7: the Church at that time knew all about this Restrainer, but the Church today is in the dark. Since the "mystery of iniquity (or, of lawlessness)" was already evident & at work, the one restraining these 'acts of lawlessness' from appearing in the one who is personified as the epitome of rejection of all of God's Laws, would have to already been active throughout the ages. Can this then be Michael?
Would the archangel be so empowered to restrain the iniquities of the world in such a manner for such a long period so that it would not come to fruition in the person of that Wicked one (anti-Christ, coming in the authority & power of Satan)? This may be possible, but seems highly improbable, rather that God Himself has kept the world from sinking into the mire of full-blown depravity awaiting the day of His abandonment of the World to Satan, that His Judgement against the World, culminating at the final outpouring of His Wrath & battle, might be seen & justified.
You said that it is 2 Thessalonians 4 where dispensationalists find the doctrine of the rapture. I interpret that as the second coming after the tribulation.
You said that one cannot hang a doctrine on one verse, but here you admitted to doing so.
I have considered the dispensational viewpoint from many angles Scripturally and cannot attest to it being true.
I have read the Scriptures fairly thoroughly about the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints and conclude that He comes after the tribulation and gathers ALL saints at this time, not at a pre-trib rapture and then gathers more at s coming in the clouds after the tribulation and then gathers again those from the millennial reign.
I just don't think the Scriptures teach this anywhere. But I can find many Scriptures that say that Jesus comes again (once) after tribulation and then gathers the saints. I posted some Scriptures in my previous post. So, I do not hang my doctrine on one verse in Scripture.
I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.
I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.
And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25 Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.
When we are down to nothing, God is up to something!
Just one other thing you mentioned, "when we say that the Spirit goes away with the church we don't really mean that the Spirit goes, this can not occur since the Spirit fills the universe, but we mean that the specific ministry of the Spirit in the church as a guide, a helper etc pauses to exist."
Would you be stating here, that at the Church's Rapture, the Holy Spirit still 'continues' on in the Earth & affecting the hearts of men as He did pre-Rapture? This is worth considering as I've tended to follow the line, 'that if the Church goes, then the Holy Spirit must go as well, as it was for this reason alone that He was sent by Jesus to seal, baptize & fill the believer'. John 14:16,17 & John 16:7 seems to indicate that the reason for the sending of the Holy Spirit was for the Church's inception & existence. That through the Church, the Gospel would go out, the testimony of Jesus would be manifest, & the forces of darkness would be held at bay.
In the OT, the prophets & those of God's people were inspired or energized to utter God's Message, but the Spirit was not given as He has come now to dwell in the Church (of people, not building). Therefore, the Spirit's coming is for the Church, & through her He will reprove the unbelieving world "of sin, and of righteous, & and of judgement". If then the Church is removed prior to the Great Tribulation, what would be the need of the Holy Spirit in the World? The reason He was sent, was for the Church & their testimony & the reason for His departure was for the 'god of this world' to have free course without anymore restraint; justifying the full Wrath of God to fall on all who reject Him. Would there be any Scripture or reasoning from the Scriptures, to show that the Spirit must continue here, after the Church is gone? I'd be interested to think deeper on this. Blessings.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
God night.
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
I would not include Harold Camping in your list. I listened to Family Radio and Mr. Camping for several years. He was certainly wrong about setting a specific date for Judgement Day and came to recant of the idea that we could know the day.
But he was very accurate in many of the his teaching and particularly in his approach to interpreting the Bible. He was always Vehemently opposed to any extra-biblical revelation of any kind whatsoever. And constantly taught that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the only word of God and is to be our ultimate authority. He was a faithful Bible teacher and corrected several of his teachings over time as he continued to search the scriptures.
Many regard him as a false prophet particularly those that remain in the churches. I absolutely do not. But he was not infallible as no Bible teacher is.
I was responding to you saying
"You do not think that 1 Thessalonians 4 passage speaks of the rapture".
That's why I gave you 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I am very surprised that you hold such dogmatic eschatology views and did not know that is where we get the Rapture verse from.
And yes Gigi, You are right in that Salvation is a far more important topic. But the door is now open on eschatology and I haven't read hardly any of the replies and I believe it is profitable.
I did get your rebuttal with kindness.
Thank you.
I will give You some answers and questions with kindness,
Maybe you can help me understand your viewpoint by way of scripture.
Post-trib has several viewpoints.
Some put the rapture after the tribulation but before the day if the Lord.
I've seen you reply the rapture comes at the end of the world. forgive me if I sound confused but you don't give a breakdown chronologically or scriptures.
Eschatology covers a lot of scripture. You can't hang a doctrine on a single verse.
We're not trying to push our viewpoint but with the use of scripture let's give the reason we hold our it.
Thanks in advance and God bless.
I can name some here to warn others:
Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists); Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Amy Semple McPherson (Four Square Gospel), E.W. Kenyon (Theosophist, Meta-physicist), William Branham (Pentecostal Healing, Latter Day Rain, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, One New Man, New Apostolic Reformation), Earl Paulk, Oral Roberts (Healing) Harold Camping (False prophecies), C. Peter Wagner, (false prophet) to name a few.
Perhaps it is good for believers to check out many of the people who have been part of the prophetic, charismatic, pentecostal, Signs and Wonders movements of the past 200 years. This can be eye opening and lead believers to come to reject the teachings, written books, etc. of such false teachers and also the movements, sects, they founded.
I am not trying to beat up on anyone or any one group in particular. It is just those in these groups have produced so much of the error in the church today.
The biggest difference that you cite is, of course, the nature of God's judgment on the unsaved.
Your understanding reflects the understanding and teaching of essentially every church and denomination throughout the church age. And when I was in the church, I did not question that understanding either. I have quite recently come to believe otherwise, and will provide what I believe to be some scriptural proof in future postings.
I believe that Hellmin the Bible refers to the grave. And I believe God's punishment for sin is death. That is both physical death. And the death of our soul. It is not a death of eternal suffering as the church has taught. It is annihilation. And I understand that is heretical to what we have been taught in the churches and what most believe. I am only going to present a passage here that you and others may want to ponder. It is a Law that God lays down in Deuteronomy 25.
Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deuteronomy 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
God is declaring here that there is a limit to punishment that mankind is to observe. And God not only requires mankind to obey this law. But God himself is bound by this law, as he has not repealed it anywhere in the Bible, that I am aware of.
More on this later, as I have run out of room here.
Let me just say that this is an example of the incredible mercy of God.
Just know that Disability does not pay much more that what your normal Social Security amount will be. So, please check into this because it may not be enough for you to meet all of your monthly needs at this time in your life. If your job pays more, perhaps that may be the best unless you are very close to retirement age. The more wages you earn the more your Social Security you will receive when you reach retirement age.
Even so, I will keep your requests in my prayers. You have been through so much. It must be hard and so stressful besides all of the pain.