I lost my husband on December 28, 2022, So I am on my own living on social Security, I know it will be hard having a house payment and car payment, that's Ok. But I am 76 years old and I don't like asking my family for money. Is that being pride, I know God doesn't like pride?
People knew the Truth thousands of years ago , many of them couldn't even read or write and yet they still had an understanding of and a relationship with , their Creator . We don't need the internet , we need the Bible , Old and New . That's all . All those thousands and thousands of people who came before us didn't have the internet . Their understanding was probably better than ours because they had a clear and focused vision of the Truth without a load of erroneous or irrelevant or innacurate information . The devil likes to distract us and in this age that we are in now , he's doing very well for himself it seems .
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34,35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Every bit of what I just posted was off the Internet.
I was on my way to the airport and I forgot to give the purpose or exercise I was trying to display.
You can get arguments for each side on the internet.
This is not to authenticate a view.
But this is to show the internet is not the way to go on this topic.
Why not break down scripture when you reprove someone, you might help them that way.
But if you say, "They didn't hold that view in the early church then it shows you don't trust your own studies or haven't studied "SCRIPTURE". There's a different in studying doctrine and studying scripture.
As you suggested, using Google is not a good way to prove a doctrine.
However, as you have done here, we can use an internet search to find our more about what history shows us from the time of the apostles up to now.
I have read all 9 posts and have replied to some. I don't think that you have proven that more than few isolated people believed in pre-trib rapture over the course of Christian history. Some of your citations do not speak to a pre-trib rature, but to the one and only Second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. So I am unconvinced by your reasoning here. I continue to hold to the post-tribulation second coming of Jesus and the one and only resurrection and glorification of believers bodies at that time. I believe the trumpet call in Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 11:15; 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:51 all refer to the same trumpet call-the seventh and last trumpet that bring an end to the Tribulation and the beginning of Jesus' reign with the saints.
Thanks for taking the time to bring these posts forward. As I said to Chris, I don't prefer to address eschatology because it usually brings division. And I gave my reasons for responding to this thread also. I do not wish to continue to hash this out. I respect your right to your viewpoint, and I hope you will respect my right as well.
Identifying a few people pre-Darby that taught a pre-trib rapture does not show that this view was widely held. Millions upon millions throughout the centuries adhered to only one coming of Christ at the end of the age after the tribulation. The miniscule percentage of those who thought like Darby are very rare, not common.
But I am willing to listen to your thoughts on this.
Just because these believers in a time of widespread persecution expected the return of Jesus anytime reflect the emminent expectation of pre-trib rapture does not equate them.
These believers were being persecuted and thought, as you stated, that they were experiencing the Tribulation that Jesus promised to "cut short". Their expectation has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture because they thought they we in the Tribulation already and were anticipating Jesus coming and therefore, "cutting short the tribulation"
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 even says "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: For that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:"
These verses warn believers about those who say that the coming of Christ is eminent!
In Revelation, when it speaks of the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, this is the coming of Christ after the Tribulation. He then begins to pour out the wrath of God on all those unbelieving on the earth. Of course the righteous have been resurrected and changed and reside with Jesus at this time, thus being spared the wrath of God. But these righteous were not raptured before the Tribulation, as you assume.
S. Spencer, this citation does not mention a pre-trib rapture, but a pre-millennium coming of Christ and that the judging of the saints in heaven (or the place this person indicates) will take three and half years. NO mention of this being during the Tribulation.
Neither of these citations in this post speak to a pre-trib rapture, but to the second coming at the Last which is the seventh and final trump in Revelation that ushers in the second and only return of Jesus after the tribulation.
You said 99.9 percent of the early church believed in a post trib.
How did you come up with those numbers?
Here's one reason we shouldn't rely on Google as a sure way to build doctrine.
Part 1 of 9.
No, you didn't miss it. Neither did Darby. The article title is not suggesting that the Rapture occurred before the days of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), but rather is pointing out that a belief in the Rapture of the Church (in particular, a pre-tribulation Rapture) existed and was taught before Darby's birth. As an example of the allegation that belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture is relatively recent, Michael Bird wrote, "The pretrib view did not appear on the scene of church history until J.N. Darby in the 1830s."[1] In this article, we will examine some of the references in biblical works pre-dating Darby that either explicitly taught or appear to teach a pre-tribulation Rapture.
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ's return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ's imminent return. Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that "belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.
But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch's translation and Elijah's being "caught up" as previews of the Rapture. "For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up." Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church's being "caught up" before the tribulation. "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be' ( Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The italicized "this" in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces
Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian's reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, "And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away."[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst. Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as "pre-wrath" in his eschatology.
In a sermon entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.
The Middle Ages
Admittedly, the influence of Origen and Augustine was successful in turning the established church to a belief in amillenialism by around the fifth century. This view would dominate the Medieval period, with little-known exceptions. However, one exception was the Apostolic Brethren in northern Italy. This new (and thus, persecuted) ecclesiastical order eventually numbered in the thousands and evidently held a pre-tribulation Rapture position. In 1316, an anonymous treatise entitled The History of Brother Dolcino articulated some of the beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren. Their leader, Brother Dolcino, believed he and his followers would be taken to heaven and protected from the actions of the Antichrist before later descending back to earth, thus holding to a belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Johannes Gutenberg's movable-type printing press in the 15th century made books more widely available. With more Bibles accessible to read and study, more biblical works were printed, especially following the Protestant Reformation. Many of these works were shelved and have been gathering dust in the antiquity sections of libraries across the world for centuries. But within the last two decades, some of these works have been converted to digital (and thus, searchable) formats. One Christian historian, William Watson, has taken advantage of these available works, spending hundreds of hours reading and searching Puritan writings from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. A simple word search for "rapt," "rapture," and "left behind" yielded at least two dozen findings, from notable authors such as Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, Philip Doddridge and John Gill. Unquestionably, some of the uses of "rapture" by these writers refer to the act of being taken up to heaven.
A few examples of William Watson's findings will have to suffice, given the length of this article.
William Sherwin (1607-1687, minister at Wallington) wrote, "The Saints at the sounding of that last Trumpet at the end of the world shall be changed in a moment, at the twinkling of an eye rapt up to meet Christ in the air." He even refers to the early church fathers' agreeing with him: "This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged Justine Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven."
Boston Puritan Increase Mather (1639-1723), father of Cotton Mather, wrote, "When Christ comes, Believers shall see the King in all his Glory, and shall go with him to the Land that is very far off. Heaven is the Land that is very far off. Christ has assured believers it shall be thus, John 14.2 . He will not go back to Heaven and leave them behind him. No, they shall sit with him in Heavenly places [later] they shall come down from Heaven . They shall be with him when he comes to Judge the World.
Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) helped found Rhode Island College, which eventually became Brown University. While a student at Bristol Baptist Seminary, he set forth a very clear pre-tribulation Rapture belief: "The dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1Thes.iv,17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv.2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints." Edwards' reference to "three years and a half" does not mean that he was a mid-tribulationalist. His writings indicate he believed the total duration of the tribulation period to be not seven years but three and a half.
There are far too many references to the Rapture in Watson's published findings to articulate here. He cites Thomas Collier, John Asgill, Robert Maton, John Archer, James Durham, Jeremiah Burroughs, Archbishop James Ussher and dozens of others. The archives have opened, and the allegation that belief in the Rapture did not appear until Darby in the 1830s simply won't hold.
Although there are many references to the Rapture (some pre-tribulational) by published works before his time, we simply do not know if John Nelson Darby was influenced by these works. His writings articulating a pre-tribulation Rapture should not be minimized but fully appreciated. We are indebted to him for his enormous contribution to the subject, setting it forth in a clearer way to a wider 19th-century audience and beyond. Darby did not invent this teaching, nor did the many who taught it prior to his time. He taught it, and they taught it, because the Bible teaches it.
What some fail to take in consideration is some of the early church was being persecuted and thought they were already in the tribulation as Paul emphasized in his writings.
There also early writings that were never translated.
We can't Google search what we think the early church believed and (Shape) our doctrine accordingly and yet when asked to bring forth scripture you can't properly do so.
This type of negligence can hinder growth and it will show up in your theology.
When truly studying Gods word our theology should shape our eschatology, Not our eschatology shape our theology.
I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.
So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.
Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.
I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.
So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).
With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".
yes he did. I think that Chris gave the Scripture reference. Some say these may have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. Therefore they would be older than Jesus. Others, like myself, believe that Mary and Joseph had these children together.
We just will never really know until we get to heaven.
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Matthew 13:10-17
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew 13:34,35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Psalms 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Don't mean to upset you.
Every bit of what I just posted was off the Internet.
I was on my way to the airport and I forgot to give the purpose or exercise I was trying to display.
You can get arguments for each side on the internet.
This is not to authenticate a view.
But this is to show the internet is not the way to go on this topic.
Why not break down scripture when you reprove someone, you might help them that way.
But if you say, "They didn't hold that view in the early church then it shows you don't trust your own studies or haven't studied "SCRIPTURE". There's a different in studying doctrine and studying scripture.
Good night.
As you suggested, using Google is not a good way to prove a doctrine.
However, as you have done here, we can use an internet search to find our more about what history shows us from the time of the apostles up to now.
I have read all 9 posts and have replied to some. I don't think that you have proven that more than few isolated people believed in pre-trib rapture over the course of Christian history. Some of your citations do not speak to a pre-trib rature, but to the one and only Second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. So I am unconvinced by your reasoning here. I continue to hold to the post-tribulation second coming of Jesus and the one and only resurrection and glorification of believers bodies at that time. I believe the trumpet call in Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 11:15; 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:51 all refer to the same trumpet call-the seventh and last trumpet that bring an end to the Tribulation and the beginning of Jesus' reign with the saints.
Thanks for taking the time to bring these posts forward. As I said to Chris, I don't prefer to address eschatology because it usually brings division. And I gave my reasons for responding to this thread also. I do not wish to continue to hash this out. I respect your right to your viewpoint, and I hope you will respect my right as well.
Identifying a few people pre-Darby that taught a pre-trib rapture does not show that this view was widely held. Millions upon millions throughout the centuries adhered to only one coming of Christ at the end of the age after the tribulation. The miniscule percentage of those who thought like Darby are very rare, not common.
But I am willing to listen to your thoughts on this.
These believers were being persecuted and thought, as you stated, that they were experiencing the Tribulation that Jesus promised to "cut short". Their expectation has nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture because they thought they we in the Tribulation already and were anticipating Jesus coming and therefore, "cutting short the tribulation"
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 even says "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: For that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:"
These verses warn believers about those who say that the coming of Christ is eminent!
In Revelation, when it speaks of the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, this is the coming of Christ after the Tribulation. He then begins to pour out the wrath of God on all those unbelieving on the earth. Of course the righteous have been resurrected and changed and reside with Jesus at this time, thus being spared the wrath of God. But these righteous were not raptured before the Tribulation, as you assume.
So it proves nothing of what you are saying.
Neither of these citations in this post speak to a pre-trib rapture, but to the second coming at the Last which is the seventh and final trump in Revelation that ushers in the second and only return of Jesus after the tribulation.
You said 99.9 percent of the early church believed in a post trib.
How did you come up with those numbers?
Here's one reason we shouldn't rely on Google as a sure way to build doctrine.
Part 1 of 9.
No, you didn't miss it. Neither did Darby. The article title is not suggesting that the Rapture occurred before the days of John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), but rather is pointing out that a belief in the Rapture of the Church (in particular, a pre-tribulation Rapture) existed and was taught before Darby's birth. As an example of the allegation that belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture is relatively recent, Michael Bird wrote, "The pretrib view did not appear on the scene of church history until J.N. Darby in the 1830s."[1] In this article, we will examine some of the references in biblical works pre-dating Darby that either explicitly taught or appear to teach a pre-tribulation Rapture.
See part 2.
Early Witnesses
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ's return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ's imminent return. Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that "belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.
See part 3.
But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch's translation and Elijah's being "caught up" as previews of the Rapture. "For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up." Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church's being "caught up" before the tribulation. "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be' ( Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." The italicized "this" in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces
See part 4.
Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian's reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, "And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away."[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst. Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as "pre-wrath" in his eschatology.
See part 5.
In a sermon entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.
The Middle Ages
Admittedly, the influence of Origen and Augustine was successful in turning the established church to a belief in amillenialism by around the fifth century. This view would dominate the Medieval period, with little-known exceptions. However, one exception was the Apostolic Brethren in northern Italy. This new (and thus, persecuted) ecclesiastical order eventually numbered in the thousands and evidently held a pre-tribulation Rapture position. In 1316, an anonymous treatise entitled The History of Brother Dolcino articulated some of the beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren. Their leader, Brother Dolcino, believed he and his followers would be taken to heaven and protected from the actions of the Antichrist before later descending back to earth, thus holding to a belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture.
See part 6.
The Archives Open
Johannes Gutenberg's movable-type printing press in the 15th century made books more widely available. With more Bibles accessible to read and study, more biblical works were printed, especially following the Protestant Reformation. Many of these works were shelved and have been gathering dust in the antiquity sections of libraries across the world for centuries. But within the last two decades, some of these works have been converted to digital (and thus, searchable) formats. One Christian historian, William Watson, has taken advantage of these available works, spending hundreds of hours reading and searching Puritan writings from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. A simple word search for "rapt," "rapture," and "left behind" yielded at least two dozen findings, from notable authors such as Increase Mather, Cotton Mather, Philip Doddridge and John Gill. Unquestionably, some of the uses of "rapture" by these writers refer to the act of being taken up to heaven.
See part 7.
A few examples of William Watson's findings will have to suffice, given the length of this article.
William Sherwin (1607-1687, minister at Wallington) wrote, "The Saints at the sounding of that last Trumpet at the end of the world shall be changed in a moment, at the twinkling of an eye rapt up to meet Christ in the air." He even refers to the early church fathers' agreeing with him: "This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged Justine Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven."
Boston Puritan Increase Mather (1639-1723), father of Cotton Mather, wrote, "When Christ comes, Believers shall see the King in all his Glory, and shall go with him to the Land that is very far off. Heaven is the Land that is very far off. Christ has assured believers it shall be thus, John 14.2 . He will not go back to Heaven and leave them behind him. No, they shall sit with him in Heavenly places [later] they shall come down from Heaven . They shall be with him when he comes to Judge the World.
See part 8.
Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) helped found Rhode Island College, which eventually became Brown University. While a student at Bristol Baptist Seminary, he set forth a very clear pre-tribulation Rapture belief: "The dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1Thes.iv,17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv.2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints." Edwards' reference to "three years and a half" does not mean that he was a mid-tribulationalist. His writings indicate he believed the total duration of the tribulation period to be not seven years but three and a half.
There are far too many references to the Rapture in Watson's published findings to articulate here. He cites Thomas Collier, John Asgill, Robert Maton, John Archer, James Durham, Jeremiah Burroughs, Archbishop James Ussher and dozens of others. The archives have opened, and the allegation that belief in the Rapture did not appear until Darby in the 1830s simply won't hold.
See part 9.
Appreciating Darby's Contribution.
Although there are many references to the Rapture (some pre-tribulational) by published works before his time, we simply do not know if John Nelson Darby was influenced by these works. His writings articulating a pre-tribulation Rapture should not be minimized but fully appreciated. We are indebted to him for his enormous contribution to the subject, setting it forth in a clearer way to a wider 19th-century audience and beyond. Darby did not invent this teaching, nor did the many who taught it prior to his time. He taught it, and they taught it, because the Bible teaches it.
What some fail to take in consideration is some of the early church was being persecuted and thought they were already in the tribulation as Paul emphasized in his writings.
There also early writings that were never translated.
We can't Google search what we think the early church believed and (Shape) our doctrine accordingly and yet when asked to bring forth scripture you can't properly do so.
This type of negligence can hinder growth and it will show up in your theology.
When truly studying Gods word our theology should shape our eschatology, Not our eschatology shape our theology.
God bless.
I agree that it is God who has prevented this world from becoming totally wicked. Before the flood, it seemed to be so, but there were 8 who were not. And even perhaps Noah's immediate predecessors were not totally gone over to the enemy, but not as God-oriented as Noah.
So, I do believe that is God who has restrained sin and the evil one for all of history, ensuring that there is always a witness in humanity. This does not mean that a very powerful being like Michael hasn't been purposed by God to restrain Satan for all of this time or even for the times from the church to the time the restrainer releases the one who will bring forth the Anti-Christ.
Eschatology is not a favorite topic of faith that I enjoy discussing too much. It usually leads to divisions. I only chime in because it seems that the majority of people who post are of the pre-tib rapture camp and I just wanted to support Jimbob and David since I share much of their views.
I also wish to present a viewpoint that has been the majority viewpoint in the church through the centuries. Not that that proves anything. But it is worth considering. My understanding that prior to the 1800's the pre-tribulation rapture is not held by the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars, perhaps 99.9999% believe that Jesus returns after the Tribulation, even historic premillennials.
So, when considering viewpoints that are interpretations of Scripture that is not explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which pre-trib rapture is one of those viewpoints) I think it is wise to also look at what is explicitly spoken of in Scripture (which post-trib-only return of Christ is a viewpoint that is).
With a view towards Christian history, those who believe a pre-trib rapture are a very minute percentage of Christians since Jesus was here on earth. As one who investigates things that are said both now and across the centuries and especially in the Scriptures, I am always skeptical of any ideas that is "new".
yes he did. I think that Chris gave the Scripture reference. Some say these may have been children of Joseph from a prior marriage. Therefore they would be older than Jesus. Others, like myself, believe that Mary and Joseph had these children together.
We just will never really know until we get to heaven.
I just read this passage. Such good instructions for all of us!
Did Jesus have Siblings by Joseph & Mary? If so, where in Scripture can i find it to read in KJV Bible?
Sincerely, Kristi A Wright :)