The question is; of course just when we are not submitting to authority; and that is to happen when we are asked to go against the Lord and we are forced between our convictions and obeying the law. First of all what that is NOT is not complying because of our own personal financial interests being affected. Taxes certainly end up giving money to causes that are against our beliefs (not to mention a financial system not backed with any real value); but it is hard to tell just what percent is going to things such as supporting abortion clinics (which they claim isn't happening).
We also have situations where the welfare of our children or that of other innocent victims makes following orders or even being truthful come in question. As for us being believers; we can look at Paul's example where he usually handled imprisonment well; but there were times when he protested ill treatment being a Roman citizen for instance. That was probably focused on his being able to continue to freely preach the Gospel; or perhaps to ensure others could do the same. We also see examples where; for instance the King's edict to do the census was repulsive and wasn't folowed through for counting all the Levites.
Of course the example of dictators who are committing genocide means that they are no longer following their own governance as God intends. We see today many countries who are persecuting the church; to compromise and have a government sponsored and monitored state church clearly is unacceptable. If they burn down the churches; destroy our personal property; etc. we certainly in the USA have rights to protest; but where the line is drawn is in home churches; or praying as Daniel did even with the King's edict of a death sentence. The same could be said for public evangelism; and speaking out against today's political agenda. Persecution is coming; and the time when all nations shall hate us for His Name's sake. ( Matt. 24:9).
These things concern me greatly, too. Back in the 60's and 70's the issue regarding sexual freedom was centered on sex outside of marriage and living together without being married. Birth control was the means by which people could freely indulge their sexual freedom without consequences and abortion was the back up plan. Their strategy worked so well that now it seems that most couples live together before marriage. society became desensitized to this sinful lifestyle and it became "acceptable".
Then in the 80's and 90's it was homosexuality that was being touted as the next barrier to eliminate in our communal sense of morality. The desensitization began full throttle with so many celebrities "coming out of the closet". Once society became so desensitized to this lifestyle, same sex marriage was next on the docket and then the right of homosexuals to adopt children.
Next, came the LGBTQ+ push in the last 20 years to include whatever sexual deviant lifestyle one chooses to pursue. Now in the 20's transexualism and gender fluidity is being pushed strongly. Bruce Jenner's decision was publicized with full embrace.
The most hideous aspect of all this perversion is the targeting of children these lifestyles cannot produce. The agenda is to groom and recruit more and more young people so that their % of the population increases giving their lifestyle more power and political clout. Parents need to wake up right now to what is going on in schools.
Having recently retired from public school teaching, I saw what was being proposed by the state dept. of of education and how it was being implemented in locale schools by first indoctrinating teachers and not allowing teachers to object without repercussions. I am glad I was able retire before all this social justice, equity, and social learning was required to be taught. I would have resigned anyway after speaking my objections, but covid brought about my retirement.
There are only male angels. No female or baby angels. There were all created at once. Immortals do not need to be replaced because they do not die. I suspect that is why Adam and Eve did not reproduce until after they fell. They saw the animals reproducing and they probably used 100% of their brains but they probably had no physical desire. Probably means just that probably, simply my opinion.
Plz note the woman in Rev.12:5 had to birth a Child which is the H.G. to lead her into the Kingdom....When he the Spirit of truth is come he will lead you into all truth (the kingdom).....But he cannot speak of himself simply b/c he is just an infant that new born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word...Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil CHILD impling that heavenly birth a spiritual birth.....As that which is born of the spirit is spirit thats the H.G. the Child of PROMISE....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me...ME....Thats how he will come again by the new birth....We are gona have a baby Christ....Thats y he always refers to himself as the Son of Man....Mankind is gona be married to Christ and bring forth fruit unto God... Romans 7:4....But Satan the dragon wants to destroy the woman and her children....Which are the Children of PROMISE....The multiplication of Christ in humanity via his precious seed the living word which is the contents of the book of life.... Jeremiah 30:6 saw all men in travail and birth pains....Which is that New Covenant that he wrote with his own blood at Calvary.... Jeremiah 31:34 I will KNOW them all from the least to the greatest and their sins and iniquities will i remember no more.
Behold me and the Children the lord has given me are they not for signs and wonders to the Children of Israel....They are an Israel of GOD.....Children that cannot lie so Jesus is their father....Simply b/c they are gona be born in us via his Precious seed....That was the great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven....Thus the sower/bridegroom and his seed....The wheat is a baby Christ....Simply b/c Christ is the bridegroom....Jesus said that the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom..... Psalms 8:2 For out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou has perfected Praise that thou mightest still the enemy....Our carnal minds satans seat....Thus the babes and sucklings he mentions...Our New BORN.
David you said yesterday in one of your comments "I am personally convinced that we are in the period of the Great Tribulation".
Today you said "2 Thes 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy".
So wouldn't that be happening right now?
The Word of God tells us that True Believers are the church!
No offence David but it seems you are contradicting yourself here.
My last comment showing the (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) to be True Believers is accurate Biblically. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself, then we will be led into all Truth! If we try to interpret the Word of God ourselves, then very often we get confusion, and deception which can cause our understanding of other parts of Scripture to be misinterpretation, and deception.
Then many are deceiving themselves, and others, often without even knowing it.
Truth matters David. Without an open mind we cannot be led by the Holy Spirit.
I'll do my best to ask this question I would always ask questions about things but I would have a hard time understanding are you talking about the believers or the unbelievers how can I do that which group are we talking about I'm sorry if that's a difficult question thank you
Amen. Thanks for your kind words, GiGi. I still check what's being discussed periodically but have just been busy and haven't posted as much lately. There is a season for everything. I hope you are doing well and in good health.
I have often heard from those who hold to a "once saved always saved" doctrinal position that those who fall away were never saved to begin with.
I wonder if they have ever told someone who falls away that they were never saved before falling away even though the person has called on the name of the Lord for salvation and professed faith in Jesus for salvation.
Such an approach towards people who fall away reflects doubt in Gid and His promises to save those who put their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus. How can one be sure that they are saved if they may fall into a backslidden condition at any time and then be told that they were never saved to begin with? This is a very cruel way to address those believers who turn from Jesus. We do know if God will turn them back to Him at some time in the future.
We should encourage every believer to trust what God has promised in Scripture about believing on Jesus for salvation. We should never cast doubt on the veracity of what the Scriptures tell us on how we are saved-by faith in Jesus. Those we know who have turned away from the faith given to them by the Holy Spirit need to be encouraged to repent and return to Jesus, not tell them that their conversion was never real or valid.
Thank you for giving a balanced accounting of what the Scriptures actually say concerning salvation, assurance of salvation, and the possibility of true believers falling away from faith. The Scriptures do speak about both the reliability of the saving work of God in a person and also that one who has received this salvation can be preserved in faith by God AND also can fall awayfrom Christ by their own englect of their faith or some trial that sorely tests their faith unto apostasy.
As believers we are to guard our faith and to pray to endure unto the end. We are to treat those who 's faith has been sorely weakened with compassion and true concern for them to return to Christ. He seeks the lost.
Dear Heavenly Father, we present Javann before you in the nae of Jesus asking You to direct Javann's steps daily, leading Javann in the way You desire Javann's life to follow. Make Javann more and more aware of Your calling, showing Javann the path his/her future. We thank You that You have brought Javann to salvation in Your Son, Jesus, and given Javann the strong desire to live according to Your will. We trust that You will continue to help Javann grow in grace and knowledge of You and Your Son, Jesus, our Lord. Amen.
Hi Adam, good to hear from you I was wondering how you are doing since you haven't posted for a while.
Thanks for these verses about enduring in faith until the end. From these we can know that there is an enemy who wishes to undo us in regards to our faith in our Lord. But we have the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us in faith and empower us to endure. Thank God for this!
But these exhortations tell us that we should not be lax in our walk with God nor take everything lightly when it comes to our relationship with Him. We should be on guard against the schemes of the enemy, the draw of worldliness, and the deceitfulness o our own hearts due to the sinful nature that must be crucified daily.
The Bible speaks of believers falling away from Christ. We should be diligent for ourselves and watchful of other brethren to help them when they are wavering in faith. The gospel is always in season to hear for ourselves and for those we know who are in doubt concerning their salvation and on the verge of turning away from Christ
Here's some scripture- this is what really matters:
Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.
Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.
Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.
Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.
Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.
Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.
Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.
Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.
The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?
We are 2 ppl, our old man and our new man which is Christ in us the H.G....But at repentance our old man is made clean and the unclean spirit is driven out....But he falls away..He takes 7 more spirits more wicked then himself and they enter in and the last state of that man is worse then the 1 st....He answers to the dog that returns to his vomit and the sow that returns to her mud... Romans 7 :25.....Thats y Paul is saying with my MIND i serve the law of God but with my flesh the law of sin....His mind means the mind of Christ his new man....The H.G....Paul had become 2 ppl...With his flesh means the old man our old adamic nature that was made white at repentance.....But he falls away....Sin revived and i died....Paul was involved in a warfare....Thats y John said he saw war in heaven....Which is our minds where this war is raging And Jesus said violence in heaven....Thats y Paul was saying when i wd do good evil is present with me.....O wretched man that i am....It was only his old man the tare that backslide....That Christ in Paul cd neva fall away....We are not of them that draw back but unto them that press on to the saving of the soul....Our oldman is he that tastes of the H.G. the heavenly gift but he falls away....An old friend that eats at my table has lifted up his heel against me, Judas our flesh, that was in rank with satan....Our old man is the flesh.... In my flesh dwells no good thing.....But we don't care about our flesh its of no value....Its in rank with the forskin that was always thrown in the fire...As our God is a consuming fire....Thats y Jesus wants to bring fire on the earth....Which is baptism of the H.G. and Fire
But when ya read about some falling away it was not that Christ in them the gift of God that fell away It was only their old man that is in rank with satan the flesh....Thats y Jesus refered to Peter as Satan one time...simply b/c of the flesh....His carnal mind...Its impossible to renew our old adamic nature that falls away...
If you read over my comments in this thread and others, including the scripture passages quoted, I think you will find my understanding on some of what the Bible teaches regarding God's Judgement for sin, the Nature of God's Salvation Program, and the sequence of end time events. And most important, the authority of the Bible and how God declares we should approach and interpret His Word.
Much of my understanding is different than what you are suggesting here and in some of your past comments I have read.
Rather than repeat all that here, I'm happy to address my understanding, or lack thereof, of any specific scriptures you wish to discuss.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we continue to read and study His Word, the Bible.
I have heard that argument many times where someone says anyone who turns from Christianity was suddenly "never a Christian in the first place" but the problem with that argument is it goes against what the Bible says and observable reality. So, a Christian pastor who served for 40 years and falls out of the faith suddenly "never was a Christian" even though he was for 40 years? Is it a miracle that works retroactively that one day a Christian was not a Christian in the past? Then if the fallen away Christian comes back to follow Christ again does it then erase the 40 years of "never was a Christian" where he now was a Christian again? These rules seem make believe and not reality.
My next question then is so if you believe there are many Christians who are serving in the most prominent positions (such as pastors and worship leaders) whom you claim could have never been Christians, that means you think many potential Christians today are not Christians. So, how do you know who is a Christian then? Are you a Christian? What criteria makes someone a Christian or not?
If someone says a sinners prayer after a message and responds and chooses to follow Jesus is that person not a Christian? If he is, then how would he be a Christian, but a Christian pastor who in the future may stumble currently isn't?
As some shared above for every verse that says "I will never blot you out" of the book of life, etc, there's at least double warning about staying on course and to not fall away. So, judging my sheer quantity of scripture, it heavily sides with that, yes, people can fall away. Most of Paul's letters were to churches (Christians) warning them.
Now I must ask WHEN exactly do you believe you are "saved" from hell? Before or after the day of judgment?
Thank you Charlie for those thoughts. I must admit that most of them go over my head, especially when I try to relate them to what I read in the Bible. But to focus on some things you have written here that might help me to understand you better.
"the cause of most evil doings is a lack of knowledge as to where we are"; "If we teach spiritual breath first, stillness of mind, governance of emotions and feelings, thought will prevail and prevent waywardness of this I am sure"; "The Christ seed is within us all; such is the grand design of man."
Should I understand then that 'most' of the evil man does is because of ignorance of who he is & where he is in God's Design? That to teach a child in his formative years about mind & emotion control, will enable him to stay on the right path in life? That all who are born into the world have the 'seed of Christ', or as you wrote, "If everybody knew they are in the kingdom of GOD", is this how you perceive the world of fallen man?
If I've understood you correctly, where does the entrance of sin fit in & the subsequent transfer of that sin nature to every person born into the world? From reading, & trying to absorb your beliefs behind your words, it seems that we should understand that all people are God's creation with the Kingdom of God within them & only through self-realization, self-determination & effort, & true & full knowledge of God, can we find peace, happiness & God's acceptance. I realize that I've added my own words that may not reflect yours correctly, but that's how I read them. So my question would be, 'where does the teaching of man's inherent sin nature fit in, with the only repair available to him being through Christ's blood shed; that Sacrifice being man's substitute to satisfy God's Wrath?' If man can simply acquire knowledge & through persistent effort fully realize God's Kingdom within him, would this not negate the whole biblical message of salvation & entire forgiveness & cleansing?
You said "Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect".
I truly believe ( 2 Thessalonians. 2:3) disproves that statement David, If not then please show me where this is wrong.
The words (falling away) are #646 in Greek; it means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce,
(writing of) divorcement.
This verse is proof that those who are ((falling away)) was True Believers in Jesus Christ.
How else would you explain their receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ?
How else would you explain the "[apostasy"]?
Or the falling away from the truth?
(falling away) is a defection from truth?
Jesus Christ is the truth ( Jn. 14:6) They fall away from Jesus Christ.
["apostasy"] means ((An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)) which brings about them receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
Those who fall away in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) ((were)) True Believers in Jesus Christ.
Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect.
There are many passages in the Bible that implore us to " Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith". And "to make are calling and election sure". And if we are one of God's elect, we will ultimately do just that by crying to God for mercy that he might save us. This includes those that may have come under the hearing of the gospel, and may have given some outward evidence of salvation, but had never become saved.
If we have a gospel where we can take some action to lose our salvation, then we have a gospel of works. And that gospel will never save us. And it is not the gospel of the Bible. Read carefully the passages that I quoted. And there are many others.
Let me ramble a bit about the bible....It is not out moral Compass....If the bible cd have been our moral compass then Jesus shed his blood in vain and the cross was just foolishness....Its the new covenant that book in the right hand of the father the H.G. the man child....That Child of Promise.....She brought forth a man child that is gonna rule all nations....The man child is the H.G. As that which is born of the spirit is spirit which is our new innerman the H.G. the gift of God....
Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....Smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the lil ONES....The babes and sucklings that worship God with a perfect praise....Thats y Isaiah is saying a lil Child is gonna lead them which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....Which is the multiplication of Christ Jesus via his seed his living WORDS....Thats y Elijah has to come and turn the hearts of the fathers to the Children....His Children....The babes and sucklings ....He shall see his seed and be satisfied....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....And who comes in his name only the H.G. That Child of Promise....Which is the multiplication of Christ Jesus....That was the great Promise i will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven....Thats y John saw a number that no man cd number....We have only 1 moral Compass which is the H.G. The Child of promise....A lil Child is gona lead them....Kings shall be your nursing fathers and queens shall be your your nursing mothers....Men and women are gonna birth a baby Christ which is the H.G. the spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the world of sin and judgement righteousness...ok gbu
Hi guys, I wrote a very long comment, and It did not post since it has links and I forgot what I wrote. By the way, thank you for your inputs. I think I should not really rely on one Pastor to teach me doctrines. I mean, it's really important to search and seek in our own. Now I'm starting to get confused, and I felt that I really need to go deeper and deeper in my walk with God.
Now I want to ask if you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved? Where you are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ, and by accepting it, you are saved and not of your good works. Secondly, do you believe in one true bible? A final authority? And that's KJV? I believe KJV is the one true Bible since I've done my research also about Tyndale, King James and the Translators. We believe KJV is the Final Authority, not because it's perfect in translation, but because it was translated with 100% honesty and the translator was inspired by God. Lastly, do you guys believe that we don't need the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic scriptures since there's KJV, the final Bible that was inspired by God. Also, we can't rely on concordance and dictionary since Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek, and Ancient Aramaic were totally different from Modern Hebrew, Modern Greek and Modern Aramaic. People back there have different understanding and interpretation of ancient languages compared to modern ones.
Anyway, I'm sorry if my words are confusing since English is my second language. I really appreciate on what you've shared.
Thank you for the reply, but you didn't explain that verse. Here's a few more if you would like to try to explain them.
(1) ( Deut. 9:13-14) v14 The LORD says "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".
(2) ( Rev. 3:3-5) v5 "and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life".
(3) ( Heb. 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, ((if)) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end".
(4) ( James. 2:14-18) v14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? v15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food. v16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? v17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. v18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(5) ( 2 Pet. 2:20-22) v20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. v21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(6) ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a ((falling away)) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Romans 13:1-7 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Ephesians 6:5-7 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
1 Peter 2:13,14 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ezekiel 36:24-29
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jude 1:24, 25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.
If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.
If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.
Charlie. Our moral compass, I find, is not always the most reliable yardstick to perfectly attain God's Standard of morality & Truth. Simply because that which is in our hearts & from our many life's experiences can still be tainted by the appeals & persuasions of the flesh. For sure, if we fully believed God's Word & fully submitted to His Spirit to lead us in the ways of righteousness, then there can be great confidence that the path we walk down, our beliefs, our opinions, & the decisions we make, might very closely align with the Truth & Will of God for us. But how often is that the case? While we remain in the flesh, we will always be susceptible to it to some degree. But of course, God doesn't judge us for our human failings or sins of omission, but for the condition of our hearts & minds towards Him, all the while looking to Him for mercy to help us in time of our great need or inadequacy.
What we have been given by God in the written Word is sufficient to know His Will for mankind & for each of us personally. We have to believe that or else we tread on dangerous ground if other writings are readily accepted as Truth. We might then syncretize all writings together hoping to form a greater more fuller body of 'truth', when in fact, Truth might have become adulterated to some degree leaving the reader either hopelessly confused or formulating a belief system based on his own imaginations. It is sad enough when we all read from the same Scriptures & yet find that we can still understand them differently & come to various conclusions. If we then add any other writing to it, what then does that do to our understanding? I think it tragic that some hold to beliefs of the Serpent Seed doctrine, or of a purgatory for a final cleansing, even that works can also bring justification. Where do these beliefs come from - certainly not from the given precious Word of God. We need great care in what we read & what we believe, accepting as truth.
Thank you for answering, I know Jesus when He was here the first time He spoke in parables for a reason, that generation of the Priests, Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees was so corrupt and sinful it was not for them to understand He was the promised Messiah. I see your understanding although my understanding is different. If Revelation is parabolical who is not supposed to not understand it?
There are many understandings of the end times, and some are deceiving not that yours is. What we must do is regardless of what comes we are ready, strong in our faith, and if we are living, we are ready to face death if that is what we must face.
There is a verse I find with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my understanding of scripture is Matt. 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
We also have situations where the welfare of our children or that of other innocent victims makes following orders or even being truthful come in question. As for us being believers; we can look at Paul's example where he usually handled imprisonment well; but there were times when he protested ill treatment being a Roman citizen for instance. That was probably focused on his being able to continue to freely preach the Gospel; or perhaps to ensure others could do the same. We also see examples where; for instance the King's edict to do the census was repulsive and wasn't folowed through for counting all the Levites.
Of course the example of dictators who are committing genocide means that they are no longer following their own governance as God intends. We see today many countries who are persecuting the church; to compromise and have a government sponsored and monitored state church clearly is unacceptable. If they burn down the churches; destroy our personal property; etc. we certainly in the USA have rights to protest; but where the line is drawn is in home churches; or praying as Daniel did even with the King's edict of a death sentence. The same could be said for public evangelism; and speaking out against today's political agenda. Persecution is coming; and the time when all nations shall hate us for His Name's sake. ( Matt. 24:9).
We can protest but still show respect.
These things concern me greatly, too. Back in the 60's and 70's the issue regarding sexual freedom was centered on sex outside of marriage and living together without being married. Birth control was the means by which people could freely indulge their sexual freedom without consequences and abortion was the back up plan. Their strategy worked so well that now it seems that most couples live together before marriage. society became desensitized to this sinful lifestyle and it became "acceptable".
Then in the 80's and 90's it was homosexuality that was being touted as the next barrier to eliminate in our communal sense of morality. The desensitization began full throttle with so many celebrities "coming out of the closet". Once society became so desensitized to this lifestyle, same sex marriage was next on the docket and then the right of homosexuals to adopt children.
Next, came the LGBTQ+ push in the last 20 years to include whatever sexual deviant lifestyle one chooses to pursue. Now in the 20's transexualism and gender fluidity is being pushed strongly. Bruce Jenner's decision was publicized with full embrace.
The most hideous aspect of all this perversion is the targeting of children these lifestyles cannot produce. The agenda is to groom and recruit more and more young people so that their % of the population increases giving their lifestyle more power and political clout. Parents need to wake up right now to what is going on in schools.
Having recently retired from public school teaching, I saw what was being proposed by the state dept. of of education and how it was being implemented in locale schools by first indoctrinating teachers and not allowing teachers to object without repercussions. I am glad I was able retire before all this social justice, equity, and social learning was required to be taught. I would have resigned anyway after speaking my objections, but covid brought about my retirement.
So sad what is happening.
Behold me and the Children the lord has given me are they not for signs and wonders to the Children of Israel....They are an Israel of GOD.....Children that cannot lie so Jesus is their father....Simply b/c they are gona be born in us via his Precious seed....That was the great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven....Thus the sower/bridegroom and his seed....The wheat is a baby Christ....Simply b/c Christ is the bridegroom....Jesus said that the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom..... Psalms 8:2 For out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou has perfected Praise that thou mightest still the enemy....Our carnal minds satans seat....Thus the babes and sucklings he mentions...Our New BORN.
David you said yesterday in one of your comments "I am personally convinced that we are in the period of the Great Tribulation".
Today you said "2 Thes 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy".
So wouldn't that be happening right now?
The Word of God tells us that True Believers are the church!
No offence David but it seems you are contradicting yourself here.
My last comment showing the (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) to be True Believers is accurate Biblically. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself, then we will be led into all Truth! If we try to interpret the Word of God ourselves, then very often we get confusion, and deception which can cause our understanding of other parts of Scripture to be misinterpretation, and deception.
Then many are deceiving themselves, and others, often without even knowing it.
Truth matters David. Without an open mind we cannot be led by the Holy Spirit.
Thank you or your reply.
Blessings.
I was wondering how to respond to his posts since they contain so much anti-Christian statements and promote many "New Age" thoughts.
I am glad that you replied to him at the core of what was to be addressed. Thanks again.
I have often heard from those who hold to a "once saved always saved" doctrinal position that those who fall away were never saved to begin with.
I wonder if they have ever told someone who falls away that they were never saved before falling away even though the person has called on the name of the Lord for salvation and professed faith in Jesus for salvation.
Such an approach towards people who fall away reflects doubt in Gid and His promises to save those who put their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus. How can one be sure that they are saved if they may fall into a backslidden condition at any time and then be told that they were never saved to begin with? This is a very cruel way to address those believers who turn from Jesus. We do know if God will turn them back to Him at some time in the future.
We should encourage every believer to trust what God has promised in Scripture about believing on Jesus for salvation. We should never cast doubt on the veracity of what the Scriptures tell us on how we are saved-by faith in Jesus. Those we know who have turned away from the faith given to them by the Holy Spirit need to be encouraged to repent and return to Jesus, not tell them that their conversion was never real or valid.
Thank you for giving a balanced accounting of what the Scriptures actually say concerning salvation, assurance of salvation, and the possibility of true believers falling away from faith. The Scriptures do speak about both the reliability of the saving work of God in a person and also that one who has received this salvation can be preserved in faith by God AND also can fall awayfrom Christ by their own englect of their faith or some trial that sorely tests their faith unto apostasy.
As believers we are to guard our faith and to pray to endure unto the end. We are to treat those who 's faith has been sorely weakened with compassion and true concern for them to return to Christ. He seeks the lost.
Dear Heavenly Father, we present Javann before you in the nae of Jesus asking You to direct Javann's steps daily, leading Javann in the way You desire Javann's life to follow. Make Javann more and more aware of Your calling, showing Javann the path his/her future. We thank You that You have brought Javann to salvation in Your Son, Jesus, and given Javann the strong desire to live according to Your will. We trust that You will continue to help Javann grow in grace and knowledge of You and Your Son, Jesus, our Lord. Amen.
Thanks for these verses about enduring in faith until the end. From these we can know that there is an enemy who wishes to undo us in regards to our faith in our Lord. But we have the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us in faith and empower us to endure. Thank God for this!
But these exhortations tell us that we should not be lax in our walk with God nor take everything lightly when it comes to our relationship with Him. We should be on guard against the schemes of the enemy, the draw of worldliness, and the deceitfulness o our own hearts due to the sinful nature that must be crucified daily.
The Bible speaks of believers falling away from Christ. We should be diligent for ourselves and watchful of other brethren to help them when they are wavering in faith. The gospel is always in season to hear for ourselves and for those we know who are in doubt concerning their salvation and on the verge of turning away from Christ
Again, Adam, so good to hear from you.
Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.
Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.
Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.
Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.
Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.
Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.
Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.
Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.
The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?
But when ya read about some falling away it was not that Christ in them the gift of God that fell away It was only their old man that is in rank with satan the flesh....Thats y Jesus refered to Peter as Satan one time...simply b/c of the flesh....His carnal mind...Its impossible to renew our old adamic nature that falls away...
If you read over my comments in this thread and others, including the scripture passages quoted, I think you will find my understanding on some of what the Bible teaches regarding God's Judgement for sin, the Nature of God's Salvation Program, and the sequence of end time events. And most important, the authority of the Bible and how God declares we should approach and interpret His Word.
Much of my understanding is different than what you are suggesting here and in some of your past comments I have read.
Rather than repeat all that here, I'm happy to address my understanding, or lack thereof, of any specific scriptures you wish to discuss.
May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we continue to read and study His Word, the Bible.
My next question then is so if you believe there are many Christians who are serving in the most prominent positions (such as pastors and worship leaders) whom you claim could have never been Christians, that means you think many potential Christians today are not Christians. So, how do you know who is a Christian then? Are you a Christian? What criteria makes someone a Christian or not?
If someone says a sinners prayer after a message and responds and chooses to follow Jesus is that person not a Christian? If he is, then how would he be a Christian, but a Christian pastor who in the future may stumble currently isn't?
As some shared above for every verse that says "I will never blot you out" of the book of life, etc, there's at least double warning about staying on course and to not fall away. So, judging my sheer quantity of scripture, it heavily sides with that, yes, people can fall away. Most of Paul's letters were to churches (Christians) warning them.
Now I must ask WHEN exactly do you believe you are "saved" from hell? Before or after the day of judgment?
God bless.
"the cause of most evil doings is a lack of knowledge as to where we are"; "If we teach spiritual breath first, stillness of mind, governance of emotions and feelings, thought will prevail and prevent waywardness of this I am sure"; "The Christ seed is within us all; such is the grand design of man."
Should I understand then that 'most' of the evil man does is because of ignorance of who he is & where he is in God's Design? That to teach a child in his formative years about mind & emotion control, will enable him to stay on the right path in life? That all who are born into the world have the 'seed of Christ', or as you wrote, "If everybody knew they are in the kingdom of GOD", is this how you perceive the world of fallen man?
If I've understood you correctly, where does the entrance of sin fit in & the subsequent transfer of that sin nature to every person born into the world? From reading, & trying to absorb your beliefs behind your words, it seems that we should understand that all people are God's creation with the Kingdom of God within them & only through self-realization, self-determination & effort, & true & full knowledge of God, can we find peace, happiness & God's acceptance. I realize that I've added my own words that may not reflect yours correctly, but that's how I read them. So my question would be, 'where does the teaching of man's inherent sin nature fit in, with the only repair available to him being through Christ's blood shed; that Sacrifice being man's substitute to satisfy God's Wrath?' If man can simply acquire knowledge & through persistent effort fully realize God's Kingdom within him, would this not negate the whole biblical message of salvation & entire forgiveness & cleansing?
You said "Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect".
I truly believe ( 2 Thessalonians. 2:3) disproves that statement David, If not then please show me where this is wrong.
The words (falling away) are #646 in Greek; it means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce,
(writing of) divorcement.
This verse is proof that those who are ((falling away)) was True Believers in Jesus Christ.
How else would you explain their receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ?
How else would you explain the "[apostasy"]?
Or the falling away from the truth?
(falling away) is a defection from truth?
Jesus Christ is the truth ( Jn. 14:6) They fall away from Jesus Christ.
["apostasy"] means ((An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)) which brings about them receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.
Those who fall away in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) ((were)) True Believers in Jesus Christ.
Blessings.
Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect.
There are many passages in the Bible that implore us to " Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith". And "to make are calling and election sure". And if we are one of God's elect, we will ultimately do just that by crying to God for mercy that he might save us. This includes those that may have come under the hearing of the gospel, and may have given some outward evidence of salvation, but had never become saved.
If we have a gospel where we can take some action to lose our salvation, then we have a gospel of works. And that gospel will never save us. And it is not the gospel of the Bible. Read carefully the passages that I quoted. And there are many others.
Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....Smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the lil ONES....The babes and sucklings that worship God with a perfect praise....Thats y Isaiah is saying a lil Child is gonna lead them which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....Which is the multiplication of Christ Jesus via his seed his living WORDS....Thats y Elijah has to come and turn the hearts of the fathers to the Children....His Children....The babes and sucklings ....He shall see his seed and be satisfied....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....And who comes in his name only the H.G. That Child of Promise....Which is the multiplication of Christ Jesus....That was the great Promise i will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven....Thats y John saw a number that no man cd number....We have only 1 moral Compass which is the H.G. The Child of promise....A lil Child is gona lead them....Kings shall be your nursing fathers and queens shall be your your nursing mothers....Men and women are gonna birth a baby Christ which is the H.G. the spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the world of sin and judgement righteousness...ok gbu
Now I want to ask if you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved? Where you are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ, and by accepting it, you are saved and not of your good works. Secondly, do you believe in one true bible? A final authority? And that's KJV? I believe KJV is the one true Bible since I've done my research also about Tyndale, King James and the Translators. We believe KJV is the Final Authority, not because it's perfect in translation, but because it was translated with 100% honesty and the translator was inspired by God. Lastly, do you guys believe that we don't need the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic scriptures since there's KJV, the final Bible that was inspired by God. Also, we can't rely on concordance and dictionary since Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek, and Ancient Aramaic were totally different from Modern Hebrew, Modern Greek and Modern Aramaic. People back there have different understanding and interpretation of ancient languages compared to modern ones.
Anyway, I'm sorry if my words are confusing since English is my second language. I really appreciate on what you've shared.
Thank you for the reply, but you didn't explain that verse. Here's a few more if you would like to try to explain them.
(1) ( Deut. 9:13-14) v14 The LORD says "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".
(2) ( Rev. 3:3-5) v5 "and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life".
(3) ( Heb. 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, ((if)) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end".
(4) ( James. 2:14-18) v14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? v15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food. v16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? v17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. v18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(5) ( 2 Pet. 2:20-22) v20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. v21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(6) ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a ((falling away)) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Romans 13:1-7 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Ephesians 6:5-7 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
1 Peter 2:13,14 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ezekiel 36:24-29
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jude 1:24, 25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.
If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.
If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.
What we have been given by God in the written Word is sufficient to know His Will for mankind & for each of us personally. We have to believe that or else we tread on dangerous ground if other writings are readily accepted as Truth. We might then syncretize all writings together hoping to form a greater more fuller body of 'truth', when in fact, Truth might have become adulterated to some degree leaving the reader either hopelessly confused or formulating a belief system based on his own imaginations. It is sad enough when we all read from the same Scriptures & yet find that we can still understand them differently & come to various conclusions. If we then add any other writing to it, what then does that do to our understanding? I think it tragic that some hold to beliefs of the Serpent Seed doctrine, or of a purgatory for a final cleansing, even that works can also bring justification. Where do these beliefs come from - certainly not from the given precious Word of God. We need great care in what we read & what we believe, accepting as truth.
I'll keep this short.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ( Ps. 69:28)
The word (blotted) is #4229; it means to erase, abolish, blot out, destroy, utterly, wipe (away, out)
People are blotted out of the book of the living! This sounds like they are ((loosing)) salvation that they did have, does it not?
Please explain this verse?
Thank you for answering, I know Jesus when He was here the first time He spoke in parables for a reason, that generation of the Priests, Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees was so corrupt and sinful it was not for them to understand He was the promised Messiah. I see your understanding although my understanding is different. If Revelation is parabolical who is not supposed to not understand it?
There are many understandings of the end times, and some are deceiving not that yours is. What we must do is regardless of what comes we are ready, strong in our faith, and if we are living, we are ready to face death if that is what we must face.
There is a verse I find with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my understanding of scripture is Matt. 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Thank you again,
God bless,
RLW