I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:
'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'
You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.
Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.
Chris thank you for your response. I do agree with you in most of your comment, but I don't agree the great tribulation is a 7 year time period.
If we look at ( Mt. 24:15,21) What starts great tribulation according to these verses? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That would be when the antichrist, the son of perdition exalteth himself above all that is called God in ( 2 Thess. 2:4) This happens in the midst of the week in ( Dan. 9:27) The midst is the halfway point, Right?
( Dan. 11:36-39) These verses call him "the king". v36 tells us ""and he shall (exalt himself), and (magnify himself) above ever god, and shall speak marvellous things (against the God of gods)".
Th antichrist is given power to continue forty and two months which is 3 1/2 years in ( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 tells us the time period is forty and two months 3 1/2 years. v6 tells us "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God". v7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". This happens during the last 3 1/2 years which is shortened for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:22) Just a little farther down the chapter in ( Rev. 13:11-15) we see the deadly would healed, him doing great wonders, preforming miracles to deceive even the elect if possible. Then there's ( Rev. 13:15-18) The last 3 1/2 years will be the time of the mark of the beast.
Chris if this is the correct interpretation and I do believe it is, then that means ( Mt. 24:4-8) (9-14) "the beginning of sorrows" is the first 3 1/2 year period, (and in the midst) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 year period ( Mt. 24:15,21).
Then we see how God shortened those days for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation". v30 "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". v31 "and they shall gather together his elect".
The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.
Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).
I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to
Yessir Mr Landry. I understand THAT!!! I was asking for anyone else who understands that. NOW since I know I am in discussion with the HOLY Spirit HIMSELF,I have a need Mr Landry. Ever since the day I was born I have been under extreme darkness and drowned nearly to death In sin iniquity AND corruption. I didn't understand it at ALL till the Lord Jesus Christ found me in a dungeon and baptized me AND awakened me. BUT let me Tell you brother. I didn't receive blessing AND Joy AND freedom. I woke up with absolute bloodthirsty EVIL The shadow of death and ONLY by The mercies of the most high am I still persevering. But I need prayer. THE power of the lion's The power of The dog'AND the whole system is hunting me LIKE a gazelle. I know I'm Way Way Way wssaaaaay down under the shadow of death and My ONLY Hope is The Lord Jesus Christ who I trust with All My might soul strength and heart Will not leave me in THIS death. I'm terribly hounded and I know Jesus has brought me here for HIS purpose AND I am failing miserably. Psalm 142--- is My meat to hold on to because no one Will care for my soul. BUT JUST as The holy spirit of Ecclesiastes wrote through I'm persuaded Solomon. " FOR I know,that Whatsoever God does it shall be for ever, nothing can be put to it, neither anything taken from it, and GOD DOES IT, THAT MEN SHOULD FEAR BEFORE HIM. SO THAT'S MY ANCHOR. IF IT'S OF ALMIGHTY GOD SO BE IT. HIS WILL BE DONE. BUT I BEG HIM FOR THE GRACE TO GO The distance he is asking of me. Not for my own IMAGE but FOR his ETERNAL purpose He purposed in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. Called according to his ETERNAL purpose. HIS purpose. HIS Glory. Jesus Christ MIGHTY ever conquering bringer of The law of the Spirit of Life, conqueror of death darkness sin The grave Satan AND every cruelty he ever imagined according to his own heart to Dare be LIKE GOD. JESUS TOOK OFF HIS GARMENTS OF CREATOR AND BECAME A MUD PIE AND DESTROYED ALL THINGS CONTRARY TO GOD AND GOOD. NIGHT
I think this can be read as man's clever ideas designs or inventions-products to help mankind.
Without damaging the fundamental point of avoiding man's clever or better words would be,"cunning or wicked", plans-inventions to mislead against God's word.
Mezzimah is the Hebrew for inventions. In its meaning I've read it can mean , good plans or good ideas to help mankind as well as wicked plans.
Does anyone agree that the full expression of Witty inventions in verse 12 of proverbs 8 would include good plans of man. Maybe it can cover good and bad plans. Using wisdom to find knowledge of Witty inventions.
The word Witty I think is a broad word too which can be interpreted differently.
All without damaging the fundamental teaching that God's plans are better than man's but also that the fullness of God's blessings and potentials shouldn't be limited by a more fundamental interpretation in this verse.
Thanks, I wrote alot, been writing about this a bit.
Yes Jema, there is definitely a connection with David's son which I do not have time to fully address right now other than to say that in verse 24 Martha had it exactly correct. Lazarus' body will be Resurrected a glorified Spiritual Body on the Last Day and united with his Resurrected Soul which today has eternal life and lives with Christ in Heaven until the Last Day.
I also want to address this matter of the Soul, both before and after becoming saved, i.e. becoming Born Again. I sense some very faulty understanding based on what the Bible teaches.
lemme ramble a bit about the just and the unjust....Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit..... Romans 9:8.... Flesh and blood are not the Children of God.....Its only the Children of Promise that are counted for that GOOD SEED....Who are the Children of Promise?... They are the gift of God the H.G.....Which is born of the spirit in US via his good seed...The LIVING WORD NOT THE WRITTEN WORD....As faith comes by hearing his good seed the living word that initiates a spiritual pregnancy.....B/C I have spoken these living words sorrows have filled your hearts a spiritual pregnancy ....A woman when she is in travail has sorrows but after the CHILD ( The H.G.) is COME HER SORROWS are turned into Joy... John 16:20.....The H.G. is he that is born of the spirit...The gift of God....An Israel of God.. Gal. 16:6...She brought forth aman child that is gona rule all nations Rev. 12 :5 kjv.....Which is the H.G. as no man can call Jesus the Christ without the H.G. that living word....Which is that Child of Promise that is gona be born in you....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME ME
Its only the living word the H.G. that testifies of Jesus....When he the spirit of truth is come he will testify of me which is the H.G.... John 15:22....Thats y we must be born again of an incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth for ever as Peter said....The living word which is spirit and life.....
..... John 5:39 .Thats y Jesus is saying Search the scriptures the written words in them you think you have eternal life but it is only them that testifies of me....Which is the H.G. THE LIVING WORD, that spirit of truth that testifies of me....Which is that New Covenant that he gave us by his blood at Calvary....The book in the right hand of the father that Jesus wrote with his own blood.....Whosoever was not found written in this book of life was cast into the lake of fire...As our God is a consuming fire..H.G. fire..
For sure Landry , God uses all of us to fulfill His purposes , we see this especially in the Old Testament , and of course the same is true today . He puts us where He wants us to be and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can look back on their lives and see His workings in our lives and in the lives of those around us , Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ! Amen to you :) .
Thanks, it is nice and reassuring when someone agrees with our understanding of a subject in the Bible. Even if our understandings are different with someone's we should stay humble and inspire each other to study, even by studying the other person's views, we will grow even if our understanding stays the same.
I know over the years my understanding of some things has changed, (milk vs meat) we never know when the Holy Spirit will shine a light on a word or a verse. If we become dogmatic, we may be the one who is in the dark. Jesus said, "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" and "eyes to see." It is an open mind ready to learn not filled with pictures of preconceived ideas.
We are the body of Christ; we were raised a joint heir with Christ, the Spirit of God that raised Christ is the LIFE in US, his body.
Everything that we do IS WORKS: but not OUR works, we will and do what God CAUSES us to do, EVERYTHING is HIS WORKS, we are just the instrument that God uses to do HIS WORKS.
Just as God created ALL THINGS, through JESUS; we do all works of God, through JESUS.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit WITHIN YOU, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and DO THEM.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (in you) that WORKETH both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth MY WORKS unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Jeremiah 51:20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war; for with thee WILL I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy the kingdoms ......
Amen. Nice point about where these good works originate, and yes I agree that our good works originate from our faith, and our obedience to God, and so that ultimately our changed heart directs us to perform all things that are pleasing to Him. All glory goes to Him!
Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Lemme just say that there is a 2 nd Child that comes out of Christ Loins....When he breathe on them they were impregnated for the 2 nd Child the H.G.....Which are the Children of PROMISE....Solomon was the 2 nd Child that came out of Davids loins....But Jesus is telling us there is a greater then Solomon HERE....Which is the H.G. the Child of Promise....The early Church was precious in the eyes of the lord....But he had to give them up till the woman gives birth ..... Micah 5:3...They were a great army but they all died out and they were scattered.....But 4 times in John 6 Jesus says he wd raise them up and gather them again in the last day....They were an Israel of God the early CHURCH . Ezekiel 37:3....Can these dry bones live....Hear ye dry bones the words of the lord.....That New Covenant the LIVING WORDS THE BOOK IN THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.....That Jesus wrote with his own blood....And ye shall live..My words are spirit and life..Not paper and ink ...Thats y Jesus said I am the light of the world but the night comes (a time of spiritual darkness) when no man can work....The last 2 k yrs have been such a time of darkness...Lover and friend has thou put far from me and my aquaintence into DARKNESS....As Isaiah said Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the ppl....Even the big mega Churches are filled with darkness and desolation...Preaching gain is godliness and Money is ministry....Paul said from such turn away....
......But back to Bathsheba who loss her 1 st Child b/c she had a husband Uriah.....The early Chuch had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul is saying...You are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be married to another and bring forth fruit unto God which is the H.G. the Child of Promise... Romans 7:4....But Bathsheba travailed a 2 nd time for the Child of Promise Solomon....My lil Children of whom i travail IN BIRTH AGAIN a 2 nd time thus a 2 nd Child which is the H.G. that Child that comes out of Christ loins.
I appreciate your honesty in expressing your view regarding the Nature of the Bible. That view, to one degree or another, is I believe the view held in the churches of our day. And is the reason that we have such divergent views on so many critical doctrines among the various churches and denominations of our day.
The Holiness and Authority of the Bible has deteriorated in the churches to such a point that they have become almost unrecognizable in many of their beliefs and practices from even a few decades ago.
And because of this I believe we are living in the day where 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, and other end time passages are in play.
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to read and understand. He wrote it in a way that we must search it out in order to find Truth; and God Himself must lead us into Truth from the Bible as we apply the principles that God has laid out, not man. He wrote the Bible in such a way to not only reveal Truth, but to hide Truth.
But I am certain that God is in control and is working out His plan for this world in exact accordance with His Word, the Bible.
1 John 2:27 The anointing IN YOU will teach you all things .....
God gives light at his good pleasure, he want fail, be patient, it's an attribute of God.
It will take your whole life time in the flesh, it's a race, it's a warfare.
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he (the Holy Ghost) teach knowledge, and whom shall he MAKE to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, HERE a LITTLE, THERE a LITTLE.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (the Holy Ghost) will he SPEAK TO HIS PEOPLE.
God WILL NOT FAIL to bring you to TRUTH.
Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day; that the LIGHT shall not be CLEAR, nor DARK.
Zechariah 14:7 But is shall be one day which shall be know to the LORD, not day, nor night, but it shall COME TO PASS, at EVENING TIME (the end of that day in the flesh and the beginning of the next day in the presence of God) IT SHALL BE LIGHT.
THE Lord gave me a peek INTO what's going on AND why,how,when, AND FOR what purpose AND INTENT he HAS in allowing it all. All THIS came with a price AND now I ONLY Hope in HIS Mercy. It's a PURPOSE OF law AND JUST who is entitled to THAT One AND ONLY lawgiver. FOR the law of the Spirit of Christ Jesus has MADE me Free from the law of sin AND death. Law - AND God's Love Mercy AND absolutely ABSOLUTE unsearchable INFINITE wisdom knowledge understanding AND HOLY judgment and justice.
Yes sir!! You can absolutely trust it's what He has ordained for us. In Ecclesiastes King Solomon says it LIKE this-- for I know that Whatsoever God does it shall be for ever, nothing can be put to it, neither anything taken from it, and GOD DOES IT THAT MEN SHOULD FEAR BEFORE HIM
WHO SAID LUCIFER was an Angel or archangel? ISAIAH 14 calls HIM a Man, AND it states what he chose AND what he willed willed willed willed willed, he MADE the world a wilderness, ( He was The son of the morning) DAWN OF CREATION - ( maybe?) AND the epistle of 1john say's The devil sins FROM THE beginning. SO go back to "" in The beginning God created ------ verse 2--- why was the Earth VOID AND EMPTY? WHERE DID DARKNESS come from? THE waters? The DEEP? JUST a couple THINGS to get your Spirit searching
Hello Ronald , I also do not believe that there is any evidence in the Bible to support the belief that our souls are immortal . You are not alone in this I can assure you and as you put so well , we can disagree or rather , we should be able to disagree , without becoming aggressive towards each other :) it's nice when we do agree though :):):) .
I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).
Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).
"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.
2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.
My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.
My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.
If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.
Thank you again David0921. Clearly, we don't agree on the meaning of God's Authorship of the Bible; i.e. we believe that the Bible is God's Word, but your belief is that every word or phrase given therein matches what God had spoken. To this I disagree, so we will need to leave that matter out.
You asked, "who decides when God is using hyperbole (language)?" Well to answer that, I would have to say, that I, the reader would, because I, the reader am expected to read God's Word, understand it & digest it. If I can convince myself that camels can go through a needle's eye or a great many good believers staying true to the Word, are walking amongst us with a gouged out right eye, then yes, every Word in the Bible must be understood literally. Hopefully, I have been blessed with a little common sense, and so I refuse to be swayed with nonsense.
You shared from Romans 3:10-18. Yes, man's spiritual condition is really that bad, but do we in our wicked state have the poison of asps under our tongues or all our throats resemble open sepulchres. We should understand the state & extent of their wickedness, but the use of metaphors is quite normal to drive the meaning home. So is God "exaggerating for effect rather than stating a fact? On this passage, I would say that as Paul took reference to Psalm 5:9 & somewhat to Deuteronomy 32:32,33, Paul confirmed what has always been man's unregenerate state, where all these references have used metaphors for effect to highlight the fact.
And yes, in Psalm 58:3 that is exactly what is implied: not a verbal language from a babe but from a sin-infected heart from birth. But the basic problem we have here is how much that we read is exactly what God has given for man to record & how much of it has man placed from his own knowledge & experience. The fact that God has allowed all of it shows that Truth is what matters not the verbatim production of the Word, which could never happen.
Dear David 0921 , may I ask you , what do you think that Martha's beliefs must have been at the time that she said the words in John Ch 11 V 20-24 ? I know how Christ responds to her in V 25 , what do you think she was talking about in V 24 ? Do you think that what she is talking about could be connected to what David believes about his deceased son in 2nd Samuel ?
Oops I stated; "I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week"
I left out Antichrist. I meant to say I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise od the Antichrist and first half of the 70th week.
Therefore he comes at the beginning of the 70th week but the Great tribulation starts mid week.
God bless
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
God bless.
'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'
You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.
Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.
If we look at ( Mt. 24:15,21) What starts great tribulation according to these verses? The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That would be when the antichrist, the son of perdition exalteth himself above all that is called God in ( 2 Thess. 2:4) This happens in the midst of the week in ( Dan. 9:27) The midst is the halfway point, Right?
( Dan. 11:36-39) These verses call him "the king". v36 tells us ""and he shall (exalt himself), and (magnify himself) above ever god, and shall speak marvellous things (against the God of gods)".
Th antichrist is given power to continue forty and two months which is 3 1/2 years in ( Rev. 13:5-8) v5 tells us the time period is forty and two months 3 1/2 years. v6 tells us "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God". v7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them". This happens during the last 3 1/2 years which is shortened for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:22) Just a little farther down the chapter in ( Rev. 13:11-15) we see the deadly would healed, him doing great wonders, preforming miracles to deceive even the elect if possible. Then there's ( Rev. 13:15-18) The last 3 1/2 years will be the time of the mark of the beast.
Chris if this is the correct interpretation and I do believe it is, then that means ( Mt. 24:4-8) (9-14) "the beginning of sorrows" is the first 3 1/2 year period, (and in the midst) the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place which will start great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 year period ( Mt. 24:15,21).
Then we see how God shortened those days for the elect's sake in ( Mt. 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation". v30 "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". v31 "and they shall gather together his elect".
Blessing to you Chris.
The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.
Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).
I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to
- A Creature of God
Genesis 1:27
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
-Performance Issues
i.Low resistance to temptation
Genesis 3:13
"And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
ii.High level of corruption
Genesis 6:12
"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
Puzzle
I light of these issues, what is the meaning of "in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."?
King James version.
Witty inventions.
I think this can be read as man's clever ideas designs or inventions-products to help mankind.
Without damaging the fundamental point of avoiding man's clever or better words would be,"cunning or wicked", plans-inventions to mislead against God's word.
Mezzimah is the Hebrew for inventions. In its meaning I've read it can mean , good plans or good ideas to help mankind as well as wicked plans.
Does anyone agree that the full expression of Witty inventions in verse 12 of proverbs 8 would include good plans of man. Maybe it can cover good and bad plans. Using wisdom to find knowledge of Witty inventions.
The word Witty I think is a broad word too which can be interpreted differently.
All without damaging the fundamental teaching that God's plans are better than man's but also that the fullness of God's blessings and potentials shouldn't be limited by a more fundamental interpretation in this verse.
Thanks, I wrote alot, been writing about this a bit.
???
I also want to address this matter of the Soul, both before and after becoming saved, i.e. becoming Born Again. I sense some very faulty understanding based on what the Bible teaches.
Its only the living word the H.G. that testifies of Jesus....When he the spirit of truth is come he will testify of me which is the H.G.... John 15:22....Thats y we must be born again of an incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth for ever as Peter said....The living word which is spirit and life.....
..... John 5:39 .Thats y Jesus is saying Search the scriptures the written words in them you think you have eternal life but it is only them that testifies of me....Which is the H.G. THE LIVING WORD, that spirit of truth that testifies of me....Which is that New Covenant that he gave us by his blood at Calvary....The book in the right hand of the father that Jesus wrote with his own blood.....Whosoever was not found written in this book of life was cast into the lake of fire...As our God is a consuming fire..H.G. fire..
I have learned a lot as well, may God bless the ones who set up this forum.
God bless,
RLW
I have learned so very much from participating on this forum.
Thanks, it is nice and reassuring when someone agrees with our understanding of a subject in the Bible. Even if our understandings are different with someone's we should stay humble and inspire each other to study, even by studying the other person's views, we will grow even if our understanding stays the same.
I know over the years my understanding of some things has changed, (milk vs meat) we never know when the Holy Spirit will shine a light on a word or a verse. If we become dogmatic, we may be the one who is in the dark. Jesus said, "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" and "eyes to see." It is an open mind ready to learn not filled with pictures of preconceived ideas.
God bless,
RLW
We are the body of Christ; we were raised a joint heir with Christ, the Spirit of God that raised Christ is the LIFE in US, his body.
Everything that we do IS WORKS: but not OUR works, we will and do what God CAUSES us to do, EVERYTHING is HIS WORKS, we are just the instrument that God uses to do HIS WORKS.
Just as God created ALL THINGS, through JESUS; we do all works of God, through JESUS.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit WITHIN YOU, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and DO THEM.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (in you) that WORKETH both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth MY WORKS unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Jeremiah 51:20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war; for with thee WILL I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy the kingdoms ......
God bless you
Amen. Nice point about where these good works originate, and yes I agree that our good works originate from our faith, and our obedience to God, and so that ultimately our changed heart directs us to perform all things that are pleasing to Him. All glory goes to Him!
Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
God Bless You
......But back to Bathsheba who loss her 1 st Child b/c she had a husband Uriah.....The early Chuch had a husband which was the law....Thats y Paul is saying...You are dead to the law by the body of Christ that you should be married to another and bring forth fruit unto God which is the H.G. the Child of Promise... Romans 7:4....But Bathsheba travailed a 2 nd time for the Child of Promise Solomon....My lil Children of whom i travail IN BIRTH AGAIN a 2 nd time thus a 2 nd Child which is the H.G. that Child that comes out of Christ loins.
I appreciate your honesty in expressing your view regarding the Nature of the Bible. That view, to one degree or another, is I believe the view held in the churches of our day. And is the reason that we have such divergent views on so many critical doctrines among the various churches and denominations of our day.
The Holiness and Authority of the Bible has deteriorated in the churches to such a point that they have become almost unrecognizable in many of their beliefs and practices from even a few decades ago.
And because of this I believe we are living in the day where 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, and other end time passages are in play.
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to read and understand. He wrote it in a way that we must search it out in order to find Truth; and God Himself must lead us into Truth from the Bible as we apply the principles that God has laid out, not man. He wrote the Bible in such a way to not only reveal Truth, but to hide Truth.
But I am certain that God is in control and is working out His plan for this world in exact accordance with His Word, the Bible.
You have the testimony of Jesus IN YOU.
1 John 2:27 The anointing IN YOU will teach you all things .....
God gives light at his good pleasure, he want fail, be patient, it's an attribute of God.
It will take your whole life time in the flesh, it's a race, it's a warfare.
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he (the Holy Ghost) teach knowledge, and whom shall he MAKE to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, HERE a LITTLE, THERE a LITTLE.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (the Holy Ghost) will he SPEAK TO HIS PEOPLE.
God WILL NOT FAIL to bring you to TRUTH.
Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day; that the LIGHT shall not be CLEAR, nor DARK.
Zechariah 14:7 But is shall be one day which shall be know to the LORD, not day, nor night, but it shall COME TO PASS, at EVENING TIME (the end of that day in the flesh and the beginning of the next day in the presence of God) IT SHALL BE LIGHT.
God bless YOU.
I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).
Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).
"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.
2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.
My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.
My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.
If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.
God bless,
RLW
You asked, "who decides when God is using hyperbole (language)?" Well to answer that, I would have to say, that I, the reader would, because I, the reader am expected to read God's Word, understand it & digest it. If I can convince myself that camels can go through a needle's eye or a great many good believers staying true to the Word, are walking amongst us with a gouged out right eye, then yes, every Word in the Bible must be understood literally. Hopefully, I have been blessed with a little common sense, and so I refuse to be swayed with nonsense.
You shared from Romans 3:10-18. Yes, man's spiritual condition is really that bad, but do we in our wicked state have the poison of asps under our tongues or all our throats resemble open sepulchres. We should understand the state & extent of their wickedness, but the use of metaphors is quite normal to drive the meaning home. So is God "exaggerating for effect rather than stating a fact? On this passage, I would say that as Paul took reference to Psalm 5:9 & somewhat to Deuteronomy 32:32,33, Paul confirmed what has always been man's unregenerate state, where all these references have used metaphors for effect to highlight the fact.
And yes, in Psalm 58:3 that is exactly what is implied: not a verbal language from a babe but from a sin-infected heart from birth. But the basic problem we have here is how much that we read is exactly what God has given for man to record & how much of it has man placed from his own knowledge & experience. The fact that God has allowed all of it shows that Truth is what matters not the verbatim production of the Word, which could never happen.