So, when Peter was called PETROS, or Cephas in Aramaic, and remember in John Chapter 1, Jesus said you will be called Cephas. Well, at this particular time in Matthew 16:18 is when Jesus named him PETROS. It's a spiritual name. It's a rock. But it's not a foundation stone. That's PETRA, and that's Jesus.
Simon Peter, Andrew, and their father were from the village called Bethsaida, on the Northeastern side of the Sea of Galilee. They later moved to Capernaum to continue their fishing business, as recorded in Mark 1:21, and Mark 1:29. The reason for the move was because Capernaum was the Lord's home during much of his public ministry.
Luke 4:38-39 tells us that Peter was married. In this account, Jesus heals Simon Peter's mother-in-law who was sick with a fever. Simon Peter's wife also accompanied him on some of the missionary journeys as told to us in I Corinthians 9:5.
Simon Peter also appears to be the leader of the Apostles. In all four lists of the Apostles in the New Testament, Simon Peter is named first. Matthew 10:2-7; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:13-16; Acts 1:13.
In Acts Chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples, Peter was the one who gave the first sermon.
In Acts Chapter 4, Peter is the one answering to the Sanhedrin (the religious council of the Jews). They pulled the disciples in and said you cannot preach the resurrection anymore in the name of Jesus. It was Peter who responded and spoke for the disciples.
In Acts Chapter 5, Peter is the one administering discipline in the Church. So, he's a leader.
In Matthew 16:18, the text that says, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," the word "this" is called the Near Demonstrative, meaning Jesus was pointing to Himself.
In the New Testament, Peter (PETROS) is Simon Peter, and Jesus Christ is called PETRA. The church is built upon Christ, not Peter! There is a group that has split off and they believe that this text is saying that Jesus said, "You are Peter, and upon this rock, that Jesus was pointing to Peter and saying upon you, I will build my church." Well, the grammar of the verse, and the usage of the word throughout the New Testament won't even allow it.
The reason I bring this up is that it allows me to introduce something else to you. What a person believes about a text is important. You can say this person teaches this, and another person teaches that, and somebody else teaches something different, but you can't leave it at that. You can't leave it at what a person teaches. You have to also ask why?
For instance, a person can come along and say "Well, Jesus is talking about Peter here. He's not talking about Himself," and then just start talking about something else. And it's like wait a minute, you hold that position, but why do you hold that position from the text? So as a Christian, it's not just a matter of saying so and so teaches this, and so and so teaches that. The question has to be asked "Why do they teach it?"
If somebody comes along and says the two Greek words being used here, one of them means trash can, and the other means pole, then we have a problem because each teacher is using Greek to back up what they're saying it means. So, one of these guys is wrong!
My encouragement to you is not just to take various teachings that people teach, but find out why, especially if you are wondering if it's right or not. They should tell you why from the text or be available to tell you why. You can't just ask what. You have to ask why.
There are eight Simons in the New Testament. This Simon is designated in the New Testament as Simon Peter.
Peter's father was named Jonas. In Matthew 16:17, Jesus called Peter "Simon Bar-Jona, or Jonas. Bar means "son" in Aramaic and Jonas is Aramaic for John. So, Peter's original name is "Simon son of John."
Peter had a brother named Andrew. Andrew was the first to meet Jesus and come to know Him as Messiah as recorded in John 1:35-40.
Andrew introduces his brother Simon Peter to Jesus in John 1:41-42
At this time, that is, when Peter came to Jesus, Jesus tells Simon Peter that in the future he will be called Cephas, which is Peter in Aramaic. Both Cephas, and PETROS for Peter mean the same thing.
During the Lord's ministry when He was traveling in the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus applies the name Peter to Simon as recorded in Matthew 16:18. Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
The name for Peter, when He says thou art Peter, the Greek word is PETROS. The Greek word for "rock," upon this rock, is PETRA. These are two different Greek words.
PETROS means "rock" or pebble. And PETRA means "foundation stone." They are two different things. One is a large foundation stone, and PETROS for Peter is a small stone or a pebble.
The word PETRA also is used for Jesus Christ in the New Testament. 1 Corinthians 10:4 is an example about the rock that followed the Jews in the wilderness, and this rock was Christ. And the word rock is PETRA.
I'd like to spend a little extra time on this introduction because Peter, who wrote 1 & 2 Peter, there's more information about him than any other apostle. There are some interesting things about Peter in the scriptures.
Peter, in all of his quotes from the Old Testament, he quoted the Septuagint. He did not quote the Hebrew. Peter himself grew up and was raised in a Greek village. He knew the Greek language and wrote in the KOINE Greek of the New Testament.
NOW FOR THE INTRODUCTION TO BOTH 1ST AND 2ND PETER:
I. FIRST AND SECOND PETER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:
First and Second Peter are part of a collection of books in the New Testament called The Jewish Literature. The Jewish Literature begins with the Book of Hebrews and continues through to the end of the Book of Revelation.
II. THE AUTHOR:
The Writer of I & II Peter is Peter, as introduced to us in 1 Peter 1:1. There is more information known about Peter than any other Apostle.
Peter's original name in the Bible is Simon. In Hebrew he is known as Simeon. Simeon and Simon mean the same thing, same person.
The whole letter of Hebrews is centered on Jesus, the Son of God, the divine Word, who was incarnated into a human nature and fleshly body unique to Himself to fulfill all that was involved to save humanity from the bondage and condemnation of sin decided from pre-creatin in the Everlasting Covenant within the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus, our Savior and we as believers of this one gospel are contrasted to the OT Israelites who did not believe this one gospel that Moses preached to them in the wilderness. It is the same gospel preached to Abraham. The good news that God will save them from their sin and corruption and bring them into an everlasting inheritance in the presence of God forever.
As I said before, we do not know all of what God communicated to the patriarchs, prophets, David, and others concerning this gospel. But Hebrews says that it was preached to Israel in the wilderness, and I believe it is the same gospel we preach and believe. Whereas Hebrews chapter 4 is speaking of the rest of God, this does not equate to the gospel referred to in verse 2 as a gospel of rest-the physical land of Canaan for Israel and the heavenly Jerusalem for us. The result of hearing the gospel of Jesus and believing it is the reception of forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance kept for us in heaven.
Giannis, thank you for explaining your thoughts to me. I do appreciate your input. I just do not concur with your analysis of this verse in Hebrews Chapter 4.
I understand what you were explaining as to the Greek in Heb.4:2
The verse says that "for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:.."
So if it says gospel, meaning "good news" and "evengelismenoi" as you say is the Greek it makes no difference really. The gospel that was preached to us is the one gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation. We were not preached a gospel of "rest" The verse says that "as unto them". this indicates that the gospel that we heard preached (and received) is the same one they heard salvation will come from the Messiah). This salvation is referred to as a deliverance from sin.
So, if the verse had said that the gospel (good news) of the rest of God was preached to us and the same gospel was preached to the Israelites, then I would agree that this good news is of a rest is the one we and they were to receive by faith. But that is not the normal message of the NT when using the word gospel (good news) (evengelismenoi). The NT uses the word "gospel" specifically to speak of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah and Savior for those who believe it's content, which is salvation from sin, not a rest in God. It is true that we receive a rest in God by believing the Gospel of Jesus. The res is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it to be true and for each person that believes it.
I still stick to what I have said in previous posts concerning Heb. 4:2. You nor the others have given me convincing information to change to this view of what is meant by the word gospel in this passage.
While I can see that the word gospel (or evenglismenoi) can be used in ways you stated in everyday usage in Greek, in Scripture, it is normally used for salvation in Christ.
The OT story of the Israelites is for our instruction. Their deliverance from bondage points us to the deliverance from the bondage of sin we receive in Christ. That is what the author of Hebrews is speaking to. see pt. 2
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
This is unscriptual, it didn't apply until He actually did it.
quoting you;
"If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly".
Job 1:1Job 1:8Job 2:3 Enoch was take up to God, do you really believe God would allow a sinner into heaven? Both of these was before the law, & after the law 1 Kings 11:42 Kings 20:31Chronicles 29:9Luke 1:6Philippians 3:6
What saith thou of thyself?
Friend, your putting your foot in your mouth again!
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21Matt. 12:50John 20:172 Cor. 11:31Ephesians 1:31 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:161 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Probably I didn't make it clear in my previous post that we may be misled to a wrong conclusion about Hebrews 4:2 and it is not our fault. To put it plainly the translation is wrong here.
Lets do some greek first, it will be useful as far as that verse is concerned. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
The phrase in KJV in Heb 4:2 "the gospel was preached" in grk it is "esmen evengelismenoi". The word "evengelismenoi" comes from the verb "evagelizomai" which is in Engl. "to evangelize". It comes from "Evangelion" (Evangelium in Latin) which means "a good message, good news". From "Ev" which in anc gtk means "good" and "angelia" which means "message" (the word "angel" comes from this word. "Angel" in anc grk means "messenger"). The word Evangelion (good message/news, gospel) today means the gospel of Christ. But that was not the case in ancient times. During Jesus' time it meant any good news, ie a message of a victory in a battle against an enemy was an evangelion(gospel), a message from the Emperor was an evangelion(gospel), even the Emperor's birthday was an evangelion(gospel), any good news actually was an evangelion(gospel).
In that context we must examine that verse. The literal/right translation is "the good message/news they were told". It has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ, and this is how this specific verse is translated in all other English translations which I searched.
So what was the good news for the Hebrews when they went out of Egypt? It was the message of a promised land where they could rest and be protected from their enemies. That is why it says that they didn't have faith in those good news. If we assume that Paul talks about Jesus' gospel, it doesn't make sense. Those Hebrews that went out of Egypt didn't believe Christ's gospel? What that gospel had to do with them, especially at the time of escaping from Egypt?
1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained ..."
Abraham saw into the future and rejoiced to see the work of Christ for Himself and those who believed God.
He foresaw the Resurrection and believed that this would be his future, too. He looked forward to the rest of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, and counted himself as a foreigner and sojourner in the physical land of promise he was brought to by God.
He did not stake his inheritance as this earthly land, but the heavenly land that God prepared for those who live by faith.
David also had many views of the future that revealed the salvation that comes from the Messiah and believed/
Moses and many prophets also saw the future when the Messiah would take away their sins.
I am sorry that I cannot cite all the Scripture for these things right now. I am off for chores for the day.
I just take what is said in Hebrews 4 at face value as being the same gospel because I do not read in the epistles that there are more than one gospel. Paul even said in Galatians that if anyone preaches any other gospel that that of Jesus, they are to be accursed. So the New Testament is the Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by those who knew Jesus in His earthly life and resurrected life and Paul who knew Jesus after His resurrection. I believe that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is our inheritance as saved individuals, but the gospel is that of Christ crucified, even that of Him being crucified from before the creation of the world. This is the Everlasting Covenant made between the Godhead to create a people who will need to be redeemed from sin they commit, death they will face as a result of sin against God, and the evil one who prowls after fallen mankind to keep them from redemption.
God foreknew all of these things and His plan of redemption predates His creation of the world and all beings that live. God's purpose for creating was to redeem a people for Himself to share in the glory of His presence, life, and communion of the Godhead. He, in His infinite wisdom always knew that this was the ultimately best way to create what came into existence, even with the sureness that many angels will sin and rebel, and also, that mankind would sin and rebel, and then that the good created world will be corrupted by the sin of mankind and the fallen angels. God is so much greater than all of this sin and corruption. He knew that He could infinitely overcomes both sin and the evil ones through His acts of salvation. He knew that a redeemed people is infinitely better than a people who could not sin and would not know of sin.
So, I see only one gospel preached, one Eternal Covenant, one plan for all of the redeemed, and one way for all to be saved in Christ Jesus. ...cont.
The words in italics in the King James Bible were added by the translators to assist in the English flow of the translation. They are not words that "were MISSING from the manuscripts in the original languages"
We can be thankful that the KJV translators put these additional words in italics. It indicates their sincere desire to be faithful to a word for word translation of the original languages. And God has graciously given Theologians and Bible teachers and any student of the Bible, tools like concordances and interlinear versions to check out the translators.
Avoid a paraphrase version of the Bible like the plague.
May God richly bless you as you read and study His Word, the Bible.
If I can be so bold as to suggest that you are attempting to understand the Godhead using Human Logic. And that is impossible. Our finite peanut minds cannot fully comprehend an Infinite God that has existed from everlasting to everlasting and created this World from nothing, by speaking it into existence.
God reveals to us in His Word that there is only ONE GOD, and there are THREE PERSONS in the GODHEAD, all of whom are Eternal God Himself. We cannot sort this out or "explain" God. We trust this by faith.
Furthermore, the Bible is clear that The Lord Jesus Christ is Eternal God Himself and that He humbled Himself, took on a Human nature, and then took upon Himself EVERY sin that ALL of His Elect have or will ever commit, and then endured the Wrath of God Himself, required by the Law of God, the penalty for their sins. Again, we cannot sort all this out from a mechanical perspective. But we know it is so because God Himself declares it to be so in His Word, the Bible. And this is what every True Believer trusts by faith, and even that faith itself is a Gift of God, and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be approached and understood like any book written by a human author. God wrote the Bible so that we must search it out, comparing scripture with scripture, applying the principles that God lays out for us in the Bible itself. And even then, it is God Himself that must open or understanding and lead us into truth as we do this.
So here is the crucial point, Ronald, if we are trusting in a Gospel where Christ is not Eternal God Himself, then we are trusting in a Gospel that has no Savior. Because if Christ were not Eternal God, He could not have paid for the sins of those He chose to save. And every sin, every violation of the Law of God, must and will be fully paid for, either by Christ or by ourselves.
Why there are italic words in the KJV Bible? What does that mean? Are these italic words added by men to fill the gap of missing words in the manuscripts? Are these added words accurate and to be considered for God's word? Are there any references for these added words somewhere else in the Bible?
Regarding the Sabbath scripturally, this is directly from God.
Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
God want's us to rest one day a week. He also wants us to give others a day of rest. Look how crazy this non-stop world goes 24/7/365 days a year. This Sabbath Day is for man, it is a gift to us!
1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
Sure there are many versions of His word. But God told us to read, 'study' & learn HIS word to grow in His truth. He did NOT say: ''some day, ppl will write other versions changing (adding/omitting a sin in itself) My truth, but it's a good read cuz you'll understand it more simple so go ahead''. Not what His freewill is about.
NO, He never said it would be easy yet promised it will be worth it (studying His truth). He inspired ppl to write what He wanted written to be read for His purpose. KJV is complete, needing NO change. (I have a 1600 bible that is word for word unchanged). If we do what He ask, our life will be fulfilled & only then can you truly know "His peace that passes all understanding".
NOT w/what the world wants one to believe which eventually turns us away from Him. In doing so, you are saying His work wasn't good enough, I want to make it better. Say that to his face & see how far you get. *Only true believers* (ppl that make time for His truth letting worldly desires go, Getting rid of the junk in this world not needed). *Not mere believers in Christ*..think about this..EVEN SATAN BELIEVES.!
SO, anyone that knows His word knows what's going to happen to him.! Please, don't get left behind. It does make a difference. His writting is not our understanding, therefore make time to study.! Praying for His guidance. On this app it allows us to look up meanings just press on a verse & scroll. So even if you dont get a new bible cuz you want to 'understand' what it says, then study earnestly not allowing yur version of 'The Holy Word' meaning to stray you. Words in His writting are way diff then English meaning. Pray this helps Someone (many) out there. In Jesus name, Heavenly Father I pray the world wakes up to YOUR right truth, A M E N .
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is clearly stated by God in Rev 13:8 and Heb 4 and aligns with everything God declares throughout the Bible about the Nature of Salvation.
If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly. And God's perfect justice demands that full payment for their sins be made before they could be saved, before God could apply that Salvation to their life, before they could become Born Again. And God cannot and will not violate His own Law. But Abel, Noah, Abraham, David, and many other OT Believers did become saved.
Your "understanding" also ignores the fact that there is no "inherent faith" in Mankind that is pleasing to God and that all Mankind is, by nature, in rebellion against God ( Romans 3); and that God Himself must apply His Salvation to anyone that He saves by creating in us a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul, when He saves us. This is becoming Born Again. And the "faith" of Salvation is entirely a Gift of God and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
And this must happen to anyone that God "saves", throughout time.
God does this, and can do this, only because the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement, His payment for the sins of His Elect, the terms of the Covenant, have all been met FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
So the question we are discussing really is the question of the Nature of Salvation itself.
A M E N..very well said & so very true. Bless you Bro dan. It's short verses like these that seem to have the most power in them. The devil may be ruler of earth, for now, yet ppl seem to forget, God is in control. NOTHING gets past Him. He knows & sees ALL.
Awesome. Praise God you got thru the hard time when satan was trying to make you weak. As its said the movie "Sound of Freedom" WHEN GOD SPEAKS you DO NOT HESITATE. With Him by your side no one can be against you. Bless you & may you continue to Always follow His word.
I too am struggling w/ppl around me yet keep my mind on Him. If we let our mind stray, soon the heart will follow & thats when evil creeps in slowly. Before you know it, its to late & we'r falling into sin. Evil will flee if you keep repeating Jesus name for satan can Not hear our thoughts. I pray quietly yet when in dire need of our Lord, it can be heard. God bless 'Texsis'.
To say that it was the same gospel, would be saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is faulty, & we all know it not.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "of the Grace that should come" future tense
NT gospel is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that sets one free from the law of sin & death
Who is able to redeem one completely out of sin. By the Blood/Life of the Lamb of God, who's blood/life purge out the old leaven from our very heart, & forms there, by His Spiirt the new creature,. Col 3:10 By God's command 2Cor 4:6 Who brings Jn 1:17 Who is ABLE cleanses, delivers & redeems to the uttermost to all that come to God through Him, Meaning in Spirit, not the letter.
Yet, I believe there were few in the OT, who's faith reach out into the NT
Remember, faith come by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself,
David, son of Jesse, would be one, Heb 6:5 his writing speak of this Spirit of Grace & Truth.
What measure he received of it ? him & God knows !
Thank you, and you did not offend me as I hope I have not offended you. You said the one thing that is what is most important in this conversation. What God do we worship, this is what we are accountable for. Do we worship a triune God that is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons who are God? Or do we worship "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" the "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Are they the same God?
In love, what God we worship is the truth we must all in our hearts find. As you said will leave it be.
Thanks brother S. Spencer for those worthy thoughts and about Israel's spiritual blindness suffered in Jesus' Day, just as they were in the centuries before; even though many of them trusted God, not knowing how their lives stood before Him & what their end would be. They had to be cast upon Him, He Who judges righteously & would apply the Blood of His Son to them also in that coming day, that they too, with us, might stand before God justified by faith in and through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yet, Hebrews 9:26 states, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". Writing about the yearly sacrifices made by the OT High Priests, the writer explains that Jesus' Sacrifice was different even in this respect: Jesus came only once to deal with the sin problem forever. If His Sacrifice applied to the OT faithful living in those days as well, then Jesus' Crucifixion had to begin from those days, & done often.
This tells us that before Jesus came & gave His Life, all Israel were under the Law & remained condemned for their sin. But God chose to be merciful to them through their obedience in sacrifices. Though those sacrifices looked ahead to Jesus' Perfect Sacrifice, His Sacrifice had no bearing upon them at that time, or else as the Scripture gives, "He must often have suffered since the foundation of the world". And Jesus would have had to "suffer" often, as the OT Covenants were in force & the New Covenant in His Blood had not occurred. But He didn't suffer & die for them at that time, but only after "he appeared (now once in the end of the world) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself"; only at Calvary, the price of sin (for those of the OT & latter days) applied. Even if the Gospel preached unto them was of Jesus' Sacrifice, it would have not been understood by them & not even applied to them - until Jesus finally came & secured those OT saints & us post-Cross, to His praise.
Thank you GiGi for your view on this passage. And I did sense that you would align with David's thoughts on it, as mine appear to be wholly dispensational in understanding. True, "we don't know all of what God told the OT saints", and in fact Isaiah 53 might be the most detailed prophecy we have of a coming suffering Messiah, so it can only be one's viewpoint as to what Gospel (whether one of the Cross or of eternal Rest) that was given & what the people understood of it. In any case, the point in our discussions (with David0921) was, if it was the Gospel of Jesus' Sacrifice that was preached to them (as you also accept), then those who came under the sound of it, who obeyed God in faith, had that salvation applied to them; i.e. they were saved, eternally secure - they were born again at that time.
So our problem here is threefold: 1. what was the nature of the Gospel brought to the OT saints; 2. whether their faith in God (and the Gospel brought to them), actually saved them from that time on; and 3. was the Holy Spirit given to them as well (to save them, making them new) which then begs the question, what was the need of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost? This pouring out wouldn't then be necessary, as everyone (OT & NT) who puts their faith in God through the eternal Sacrifice of Jesus ("slain from the foundation of the world"), would be born again & automatically receive His Spirit. Onto Page 2.
So, when Peter was called PETROS, or Cephas in Aramaic, and remember in John Chapter 1, Jesus said you will be called Cephas. Well, at this particular time in Matthew 16:18 is when Jesus named him PETROS. It's a spiritual name. It's a rock. But it's not a foundation stone. That's PETRA, and that's Jesus.
Simon Peter, Andrew, and their father were from the village called Bethsaida, on the Northeastern side of the Sea of Galilee. They later moved to Capernaum to continue their fishing business, as recorded in Mark 1:21, and Mark 1:29. The reason for the move was because Capernaum was the Lord's home during much of his public ministry.
Luke 4:38-39 tells us that Peter was married. In this account, Jesus heals Simon Peter's mother-in-law who was sick with a fever. Simon Peter's wife also accompanied him on some of the missionary journeys as told to us in I Corinthians 9:5.
Simon Peter also appears to be the leader of the Apostles. In all four lists of the Apostles in the New Testament, Simon Peter is named first. Matthew 10:2-7; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:13-16; Acts 1:13.
In Acts Chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples, Peter was the one who gave the first sermon.
In Acts Chapter 4, Peter is the one answering to the Sanhedrin (the religious council of the Jews). They pulled the disciples in and said you cannot preach the resurrection anymore in the name of Jesus. It was Peter who responded and spoke for the disciples.
In Acts Chapter 5, Peter is the one administering discipline in the Church. So, he's a leader.
In Matthew 16:18, the text that says, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church," the word "this" is called the Near Demonstrative, meaning Jesus was pointing to Himself.
In the New Testament, Peter (PETROS) is Simon Peter, and Jesus Christ is called PETRA. The church is built upon Christ, not Peter! There is a group that has split off and they believe that this text is saying that Jesus said, "You are Peter, and upon this rock, that Jesus was pointing to Peter and saying upon you, I will build my church." Well, the grammar of the verse, and the usage of the word throughout the New Testament won't even allow it.
The reason I bring this up is that it allows me to introduce something else to you. What a person believes about a text is important. You can say this person teaches this, and another person teaches that, and somebody else teaches something different, but you can't leave it at that. You can't leave it at what a person teaches. You have to also ask why?
For instance, a person can come along and say "Well, Jesus is talking about Peter here. He's not talking about Himself," and then just start talking about something else. And it's like wait a minute, you hold that position, but why do you hold that position from the text? So as a Christian, it's not just a matter of saying so and so teaches this, and so and so teaches that. The question has to be asked "Why do they teach it?"
If somebody comes along and says the two Greek words being used here, one of them means trash can, and the other means pole, then we have a problem because each teacher is using Greek to back up what they're saying it means. So, one of these guys is wrong!
My encouragement to you is not just to take various teachings that people teach, but find out why, especially if you are wondering if it's right or not. They should tell you why from the text or be available to tell you why. You can't just ask what. You have to ask why.
There are eight Simons in the New Testament. This Simon is designated in the New Testament as Simon Peter.
Peter's father was named Jonas. In Matthew 16:17, Jesus called Peter "Simon Bar-Jona, or Jonas. Bar means "son" in Aramaic and Jonas is Aramaic for John. So, Peter's original name is "Simon son of John."
Peter had a brother named Andrew. Andrew was the first to meet Jesus and come to know Him as Messiah as recorded in John 1:35-40.
Andrew introduces his brother Simon Peter to Jesus in John 1:41-42
At this time, that is, when Peter came to Jesus, Jesus tells Simon Peter that in the future he will be called Cephas, which is Peter in Aramaic. Both Cephas, and PETROS for Peter mean the same thing.
During the Lord's ministry when He was traveling in the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus applies the name Peter to Simon as recorded in Matthew 16:18. Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
The name for Peter, when He says thou art Peter, the Greek word is PETROS. The Greek word for "rock," upon this rock, is PETRA. These are two different Greek words.
PETROS means "rock" or pebble. And PETRA means "foundation stone." They are two different things. One is a large foundation stone, and PETROS for Peter is a small stone or a pebble.
The word PETRA also is used for Jesus Christ in the New Testament. 1 Corinthians 10:4 is an example about the rock that followed the Jews in the wilderness, and this rock was Christ. And the word rock is PETRA.
Peter calls the Messiah PETRA in I Peter 2:7.
I'd like to spend a little extra time on this introduction because Peter, who wrote 1 & 2 Peter, there's more information about him than any other apostle. There are some interesting things about Peter in the scriptures.
Peter, in all of his quotes from the Old Testament, he quoted the Septuagint. He did not quote the Hebrew. Peter himself grew up and was raised in a Greek village. He knew the Greek language and wrote in the KOINE Greek of the New Testament.
NOW FOR THE INTRODUCTION TO BOTH 1ST AND 2ND PETER:
I. FIRST AND SECOND PETER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:
First and Second Peter are part of a collection of books in the New Testament called The Jewish Literature. The Jewish Literature begins with the Book of Hebrews and continues through to the end of the Book of Revelation.
II. THE AUTHOR:
The Writer of I & II Peter is Peter, as introduced to us in 1 Peter 1:1. There is more information known about Peter than any other Apostle.
Peter's original name in the Bible is Simon. In Hebrew he is known as Simeon. Simeon and Simon mean the same thing, same person.
The whole letter of Hebrews is centered on Jesus, the Son of God, the divine Word, who was incarnated into a human nature and fleshly body unique to Himself to fulfill all that was involved to save humanity from the bondage and condemnation of sin decided from pre-creatin in the Everlasting Covenant within the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus, our Savior and we as believers of this one gospel are contrasted to the OT Israelites who did not believe this one gospel that Moses preached to them in the wilderness. It is the same gospel preached to Abraham. The good news that God will save them from their sin and corruption and bring them into an everlasting inheritance in the presence of God forever.
As I said before, we do not know all of what God communicated to the patriarchs, prophets, David, and others concerning this gospel. But Hebrews says that it was preached to Israel in the wilderness, and I believe it is the same gospel we preach and believe. Whereas Hebrews chapter 4 is speaking of the rest of God, this does not equate to the gospel referred to in verse 2 as a gospel of rest-the physical land of Canaan for Israel and the heavenly Jerusalem for us. The result of hearing the gospel of Jesus and believing it is the reception of forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance kept for us in heaven.
Giannis, thank you for explaining your thoughts to me. I do appreciate your input. I just do not concur with your analysis of this verse in Hebrews Chapter 4.
I understand what you were explaining as to the Greek in Heb.4:2
The verse says that "for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:.."
So if it says gospel, meaning "good news" and "evengelismenoi" as you say is the Greek it makes no difference really. The gospel that was preached to us is the one gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation. We were not preached a gospel of "rest" The verse says that "as unto them". this indicates that the gospel that we heard preached (and received) is the same one they heard salvation will come from the Messiah). This salvation is referred to as a deliverance from sin.
So, if the verse had said that the gospel (good news) of the rest of God was preached to us and the same gospel was preached to the Israelites, then I would agree that this good news is of a rest is the one we and they were to receive by faith. But that is not the normal message of the NT when using the word gospel (good news) (evengelismenoi). The NT uses the word "gospel" specifically to speak of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah and Savior for those who believe it's content, which is salvation from sin, not a rest in God. It is true that we receive a rest in God by believing the Gospel of Jesus. The res is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it to be true and for each person that believes it.
I still stick to what I have said in previous posts concerning Heb. 4:2. You nor the others have given me convincing information to change to this view of what is meant by the word gospel in this passage.
While I can see that the word gospel (or evenglismenoi) can be used in ways you stated in everyday usage in Greek, in Scripture, it is normally used for salvation in Christ.
The OT story of the Israelites is for our instruction. Their deliverance from bondage points us to the deliverance from the bondage of sin we receive in Christ. That is what the author of Hebrews is speaking to. see pt. 2
quoting you;
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
This is unscriptual, it didn't apply until He actually did it.
quoting you;
"If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly".
Job 1:1 Job 1:8 Job 2:3 Enoch was take up to God, do you really believe God would allow a sinner into heaven? Both of these was before the law, & after the law 1 Kings 11:4 2 Kings 20:3 1Chronicles 29:9 Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6
What saith thou of thyself?
Friend, your putting your foot in your mouth again!
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Great question. This is what Jesus tells us.
John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
GBU
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34 John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28 John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10 Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18 Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21 Matt. 12:50 John 20:17 2 Cor. 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:16 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
God bless,
RLW
Probably I didn't make it clear in my previous post that we may be misled to a wrong conclusion about Hebrews 4:2 and it is not our fault. To put it plainly the translation is wrong here.
Lets do some greek first, it will be useful as far as that verse is concerned. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
The phrase in KJV in Heb 4:2 "the gospel was preached" in grk it is "esmen evengelismenoi". The word "evengelismenoi" comes from the verb "evagelizomai" which is in Engl. "to evangelize". It comes from "Evangelion" (Evangelium in Latin) which means "a good message, good news". From "Ev" which in anc gtk means "good" and "angelia" which means "message" (the word "angel" comes from this word. "Angel" in anc grk means "messenger"). The word Evangelion (good message/news, gospel) today means the gospel of Christ. But that was not the case in ancient times. During Jesus' time it meant any good news, ie a message of a victory in a battle against an enemy was an evangelion(gospel), a message from the Emperor was an evangelion(gospel), even the Emperor's birthday was an evangelion(gospel), any good news actually was an evangelion(gospel).
In that context we must examine that verse. The literal/right translation is "the good message/news they were told". It has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ, and this is how this specific verse is translated in all other English translations which I searched.
So what was the good news for the Hebrews when they went out of Egypt? It was the message of a promised land where they could rest and be protected from their enemies. That is why it says that they didn't have faith in those good news. If we assume that Paul talks about Jesus' gospel, it doesn't make sense. Those Hebrews that went out of Egypt didn't believe Christ's gospel? What that gospel had to do with them, especially at the time of escaping from Egypt?
1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained ..."
Abraham saw into the future and rejoiced to see the work of Christ for Himself and those who believed God.
He foresaw the Resurrection and believed that this would be his future, too. He looked forward to the rest of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, and counted himself as a foreigner and sojourner in the physical land of promise he was brought to by God.
He did not stake his inheritance as this earthly land, but the heavenly land that God prepared for those who live by faith.
David also had many views of the future that revealed the salvation that comes from the Messiah and believed/
Moses and many prophets also saw the future when the Messiah would take away their sins.
I am sorry that I cannot cite all the Scripture for these things right now. I am off for chores for the day.
Blessings to you today, Chris.
Thank you for your response.
I just take what is said in Hebrews 4 at face value as being the same gospel because I do not read in the epistles that there are more than one gospel. Paul even said in Galatians that if anyone preaches any other gospel that that of Jesus, they are to be accursed. So the New Testament is the Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by those who knew Jesus in His earthly life and resurrected life and Paul who knew Jesus after His resurrection. I believe that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is our inheritance as saved individuals, but the gospel is that of Christ crucified, even that of Him being crucified from before the creation of the world. This is the Everlasting Covenant made between the Godhead to create a people who will need to be redeemed from sin they commit, death they will face as a result of sin against God, and the evil one who prowls after fallen mankind to keep them from redemption.
God foreknew all of these things and His plan of redemption predates His creation of the world and all beings that live. God's purpose for creating was to redeem a people for Himself to share in the glory of His presence, life, and communion of the Godhead. He, in His infinite wisdom always knew that this was the ultimately best way to create what came into existence, even with the sureness that many angels will sin and rebel, and also, that mankind would sin and rebel, and then that the good created world will be corrupted by the sin of mankind and the fallen angels. God is so much greater than all of this sin and corruption. He knew that He could infinitely overcomes both sin and the evil ones through His acts of salvation. He knew that a redeemed people is infinitely better than a people who could not sin and would not know of sin.
So, I see only one gospel preached, one Eternal Covenant, one plan for all of the redeemed, and one way for all to be saved in Christ Jesus. ...cont.
The words in italics in the King James Bible were added by the translators to assist in the English flow of the translation. They are not words that "were MISSING from the manuscripts in the original languages"
We can be thankful that the KJV translators put these additional words in italics. It indicates their sincere desire to be faithful to a word for word translation of the original languages. And God has graciously given Theologians and Bible teachers and any student of the Bible, tools like concordances and interlinear versions to check out the translators.
Avoid a paraphrase version of the Bible like the plague.
May God richly bless you as you read and study His Word, the Bible.
If I can be so bold as to suggest that you are attempting to understand the Godhead using Human Logic. And that is impossible. Our finite peanut minds cannot fully comprehend an Infinite God that has existed from everlasting to everlasting and created this World from nothing, by speaking it into existence.
God reveals to us in His Word that there is only ONE GOD, and there are THREE PERSONS in the GODHEAD, all of whom are Eternal God Himself. We cannot sort this out or "explain" God. We trust this by faith.
Furthermore, the Bible is clear that The Lord Jesus Christ is Eternal God Himself and that He humbled Himself, took on a Human nature, and then took upon Himself EVERY sin that ALL of His Elect have or will ever commit, and then endured the Wrath of God Himself, required by the Law of God, the penalty for their sins. Again, we cannot sort all this out from a mechanical perspective. But we know it is so because God Himself declares it to be so in His Word, the Bible. And this is what every True Believer trusts by faith, and even that faith itself is a Gift of God, and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be approached and understood like any book written by a human author. God wrote the Bible so that we must search it out, comparing scripture with scripture, applying the principles that God lays out for us in the Bible itself. And even then, it is God Himself that must open or understanding and lead us into truth as we do this.
So here is the crucial point, Ronald, if we are trusting in a Gospel where Christ is not Eternal God Himself, then we are trusting in a Gospel that has no Savior. Because if Christ were not Eternal God, He could not have paid for the sins of those He chose to save. And every sin, every violation of the Law of God, must and will be fully paid for, either by Christ or by ourselves.
Yes it is the 4th Commandment.
Regarding the Sabbath scripturally, this is directly from God.
Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
God want's us to rest one day a week. He also wants us to give others a day of rest. Look how crazy this non-stop world goes 24/7/365 days a year. This Sabbath Day is for man, it is a gift to us!
1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
GBU
NO, He never said it would be easy yet promised it will be worth it (studying His truth). He inspired ppl to write what He wanted written to be read for His purpose. KJV is complete, needing NO change. (I have a 1600 bible that is word for word unchanged). If we do what He ask, our life will be fulfilled & only then can you truly know "His peace that passes all understanding".
NOT w/what the world wants one to believe which eventually turns us away from Him. In doing so, you are saying His work wasn't good enough, I want to make it better. Say that to his face & see how far you get. *Only true believers* (ppl that make time for His truth letting worldly desires go, Getting rid of the junk in this world not needed). *Not mere believers in Christ*..think about this..EVEN SATAN BELIEVES.!
SO, anyone that knows His word knows what's going to happen to him.! Please, don't get left behind. It does make a difference. His writting is not our understanding, therefore make time to study.! Praying for His guidance. On this app it allows us to look up meanings just press on a verse & scroll. So even if you dont get a new bible cuz you want to 'understand' what it says, then study earnestly not allowing yur version of 'The Holy Word' meaning to stray you. Words in His writting are way diff then English meaning. Pray this helps Someone (many) out there. In Jesus name, Heavenly Father I pray the world wakes up to YOUR right truth, A M E N .
What you, and others that hold your view, are doing is missing, ignoring, denying (you chose the word) that the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement extends from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. This is clearly stated by God in Rev 13:8 and Heb 4 and aligns with everything God declares throughout the Bible about the Nature of Salvation.
If this were not the case, no one living in the OT could have ever become saved. Why? Because no one can, nor ever has, kept the Law of God perfectly. And God's perfect justice demands that full payment for their sins be made before they could be saved, before God could apply that Salvation to their life, before they could become Born Again. And God cannot and will not violate His own Law. But Abel, Noah, Abraham, David, and many other OT Believers did become saved.
Your "understanding" also ignores the fact that there is no "inherent faith" in Mankind that is pleasing to God and that all Mankind is, by nature, in rebellion against God ( Romans 3); and that God Himself must apply His Salvation to anyone that He saves by creating in us a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul, when He saves us. This is becoming Born Again. And the "faith" of Salvation is entirely a Gift of God and is part and parcel of Salvation itself.
And this must happen to anyone that God "saves", throughout time.
God does this, and can do this, only because the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement, His payment for the sins of His Elect, the terms of the Covenant, have all been met FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
So the question we are discussing really is the question of the Nature of Salvation itself.
I too am struggling w/ppl around me yet keep my mind on Him. If we let our mind stray, soon the heart will follow & thats when evil creeps in slowly. Before you know it, its to late & we'r falling into sin. Evil will flee if you keep repeating Jesus name for satan can Not hear our thoughts. I pray quietly yet when in dire need of our Lord, it can be heard. God bless 'Texsis'.
OT gospel was the law of Moses
Hebrews 8:7-9
To say that it was the same gospel, would be saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is faulty, & we all know it not.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "of the Grace that should come" future tense
NT gospel is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that sets one free from the law of sin & death
Who is able to redeem one completely out of sin. By the Blood/Life of the Lamb of God, who's blood/life purge out the old leaven from our very heart, & forms there, by His Spiirt the new creature,. Col 3:10 By God's command 2Cor 4:6 Who brings Jn 1:17 Who is ABLE cleanses, delivers & redeems to the uttermost to all that come to God through Him, Meaning in Spirit, not the letter.
Yet, I believe there were few in the OT, who's faith reach out into the NT
Remember, faith come by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself,
David, son of Jesse, would be one, Heb 6:5 his writing speak of this Spirit of Grace & Truth.
What measure he received of it ? him & God knows !
in love & truth
Thank you, and you did not offend me as I hope I have not offended you. You said the one thing that is what is most important in this conversation. What God do we worship, this is what we are accountable for. Do we worship a triune God that is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons who are God? Or do we worship "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" the "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Are they the same God?
In love, what God we worship is the truth we must all in our hearts find. As you said will leave it be.
God bless,
RLW
Mary ask an honest question, what happened to her was something never before heard of or done.
She believed Luke 1:45
Yes, it was all mercy & grace
Yet, Hebrews 9:26 states, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". Writing about the yearly sacrifices made by the OT High Priests, the writer explains that Jesus' Sacrifice was different even in this respect: Jesus came only once to deal with the sin problem forever. If His Sacrifice applied to the OT faithful living in those days as well, then Jesus' Crucifixion had to begin from those days, & done often.
This tells us that before Jesus came & gave His Life, all Israel were under the Law & remained condemned for their sin. But God chose to be merciful to them through their obedience in sacrifices. Though those sacrifices looked ahead to Jesus' Perfect Sacrifice, His Sacrifice had no bearing upon them at that time, or else as the Scripture gives, "He must often have suffered since the foundation of the world". And Jesus would have had to "suffer" often, as the OT Covenants were in force & the New Covenant in His Blood had not occurred. But He didn't suffer & die for them at that time, but only after "he appeared (now once in the end of the world) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself"; only at Calvary, the price of sin (for those of the OT & latter days) applied. Even if the Gospel preached unto them was of Jesus' Sacrifice, it would have not been understood by them & not even applied to them - until Jesus finally came & secured those OT saints & us post-Cross, to His praise.
Thank you GiGi for your view on this passage. And I did sense that you would align with David's thoughts on it, as mine appear to be wholly dispensational in understanding. True, "we don't know all of what God told the OT saints", and in fact Isaiah 53 might be the most detailed prophecy we have of a coming suffering Messiah, so it can only be one's viewpoint as to what Gospel (whether one of the Cross or of eternal Rest) that was given & what the people understood of it. In any case, the point in our discussions (with David0921) was, if it was the Gospel of Jesus' Sacrifice that was preached to them (as you also accept), then those who came under the sound of it, who obeyed God in faith, had that salvation applied to them; i.e. they were saved, eternally secure - they were born again at that time.
So our problem here is threefold: 1. what was the nature of the Gospel brought to the OT saints; 2. whether their faith in God (and the Gospel brought to them), actually saved them from that time on; and 3. was the Holy Spirit given to them as well (to save them, making them new) which then begs the question, what was the need of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost? This pouring out wouldn't then be necessary, as everyone (OT & NT) who puts their faith in God through the eternal Sacrifice of Jesus ("slain from the foundation of the world"), would be born again & automatically receive His Spirit. Onto Page 2.