...we were like them that dream. What does it mean to be a dreamer? Dreaming is deeply connected to the realm of possibilities. The world of dreams belongs to the realm of the spirit, where all things are possible. This understanding reminds us to remain hopeful and expectant of breakthroughs, deliverance, or even miracles when we need them most. No matter how overwhelming or challenging the present situation may seem, we must stay conscious of a more positive outcome-made possible by the power of our God.
Is the ladder in John chapter one verse 51 connected to the ladder in Genesis chapter 28 ? If it is , how is it ? Does the ladder represent Jesus who is the bridge between heaven and earth , between God and mankind ?
Comparing first chapter of the gospel of John to the first chapter of genesis .
Is the ' Word ' of John chapter one , the same as the Spirit of God in Genesis chapter one verse 2 ? Is that possible given that ' all things were made by him ' ? It fits with Jesus being the Word made flesh as Jesus was filled with God's Holy Spirit without measure . Therefore Jesus is the Spirit of God made flesh . John chapter one verse 14 : And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , ( and we beheld his glory as if the only begotten of the Father ,) . So the Word of John chapter one refers to the Spirit of God in Genesis chapter one and the Word was made flesh of John chapter one verse 14 is the man Jesus , who received the Spirit without measure , John chapter three verse 34 .
Hebrews 4:14-5:10 KJV COGIC WORSHIP 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Jesus Christ is God. Jesus that makes intercedes on our behalf. I Worship God of forgiveness of sins,grace, holy-set free from sin, repentance. A God that makes you want to obey him and be like him. A God knee to bow and confess- Philippians 2:11
A God of prayer to do his will. A God of submission " My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY :mind,speaking,actions,attention of communications." God giving your confirmations- some definitions consecrated and ordained that is eternal life.
"God doing everything he says he will for you of his Word examples such as complete,confirmation, comfortable whic is recieveing Jesus Christ in your heart( Romans 10:9-10) to believe and speak it by mouth faith of God to have and gain confidence to resist- James 4:7 and not covetousness. God gives abilities and makes you able to do it. Examples to do it are speaking, actions, attention of communications.
I Pray to God to be complete, God giving me confirmation in life and security. No challenges me having faith identity I John 3:2 KJV
2 Corinthians 7:4 - Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
The Greek word for boldness, PARESIA, has to do with confidence. It has to do with speaking openly in public without fear. Great is my confidence of speech toward you. Great is my boasting of you. The word glorying is actually the word boasting. I am filled with comfort, and that's the word encouragement. I am exceeding joyful in all of our tribulations, and that's the word THLIPSIS for stress. He's not just joyful in stressful situations. He's exceeding joyful!
2 Corinthians 7:5 - For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
The word for fightings is the literal word for physical combat. He's making reference here to some of the physical attacks that came against him while traveling and while ministering.
2 Corinthians 7:7 - And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
There are three things that Titus told Paul that was a blessing to Paul when he told us of your earnest desire, literally their desire upon Paul. They wanted to see Paul again. He says your mourning, that is, lamentation over your sin when he told us you were mourning over your sin.
The fervent mind is one word in Greek and it means to boil. They had a hot desire to get back with Paul again because they received his letter and saw that they were in error. Paul says, so that I rejoiced the more. Not just to see Titus, and not just the fact that Titus was ministered to by the people in Corinth, but that the people in Corinth wanted to see Paul again. And they were mourning over their sins, and they were back to having a fervent desire to be taught again.
2 Corinthians 7:2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
He says Receive us. The word receive in the Greek text (CHORESATE) literally means to make room. Make room for us. He's making reference back to where he mentioned in Chapter 6 about having enlarged my heart to you. He says I've opened my heart to you. Now I'm calling on you to make room for us in your heart.
And he says three things that he did not do to them to emphasize that there's no reason for them to not open up to him, except that they're influenced by false teachers. First of all, he says we have wronged no man. The word wronged is the word injustice. In other words, we have treated no one unjustly.
Secondly, we have corrupted no man. This corruption, PHTHEIRO, has to do with teaching and speaking. In Ephesians Chapter 5, Paul always used it to do with let your speech be with grace, and not in corruption to the hearers. So, he says we haven't corrupted anyone with our teaching.
And thirdly, we have defrauded no man. The word defraud has to do with covetousness or desiring to want what other people have. We'll see later on in this letter that he says we are not pursuing you because of what you have. We're pursuing you because of your soul. So, he says we haven't treated anyone unjustly. We have corrupted no man with false teaching. We haven't defrauded anyone by coveting the things that they have.
2 Corinthians 7:3 - I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.
The phrase "with you," goes with both die and live in the Greek text. What he's saying is that they and he are so attached, they are at such one with each other that if they live, he lives, and if they die, he dies. He's not going to turn around and walk away from them. He's attached!
2 Corinthians 6:12 - Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
You are not straitened in us, and the word straightened means limited, but you are limited in your own bowels. And that's what the word means, SPLUNKNOS in Greek, which is the intestines. And the Greeks used the inner organs of the body to represent deep down compassion, rather than the surface.
So, he says you've closed up your bowels of compassion. You've limited yourself. My heart is wide open. I'm sharing with you, my heart. I'm not getting it back!
2 Corinthians 6:15 - And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
The word concord is a Greek word from where we get our word Symphony from. It means agreement. SUMPHONE is the word.
2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
The word holiness is the word sanctification. He says you've been sanctified. You've been set apart for Christ. And we keep trying in the human social to cross the line and be socially joined and get our social needs met. But at the same time Paul is saying that you cannot compromise your walk with the Lord by getting involved in situations and with people that are going to influence your relationship with Christ and affect your effectiveness in your walk with Christ.
Therefore, perfect, mature the sanctification. We are sanctified the very moment that God's Spirit comes into our spirit. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica to walk in your sanctification. We are to cleanse ourselves and do this in the perfecting of sanctification, maturing in the lifestyle of sanctification, drawing closer to Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:5 - In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
In stripes, that is beatings. In imprisonments. In tumults, which are riots. In labours, and that's just physical working to the point of exhaustion. In watchings. This is just a King James way of saying going without sleep.
In fastings; and I think it's kind of interesting that Paul always used the word fasting to say to go without food. He never presents the fact that if he didn't have food, it's because he's going without food, and it must be time to fast because God didn't provide food. I think that's fascinating! So, in all of these conditions, if you find yourself in them, give no offence, so the ministry is not blamed.
2 Corinthians 6:6 - By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
By pureness. This is a word associated with sanctification. It means to be morally separate and pure. Through knowledge. Through longsuffering, that is, patience with people, slow in human reaction. Through kindness. That's the word for usefulness.
Through the Holy Spirit. And you're probably thinking "wait a minute now!" It's no misuse of the Holy Spirit. It's either through the Spirit of God or it's not. Don't try to do your own thing and say it's the Spirit of God. By love unfeigned. The word unfeigned means hypocrisy. This is through unfeigned and un-hypocritical love, love that's not acting. It's got to be genuine!
2 Corinthians 6:10 - As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
As sorrowful, and yet always rejoicing; The word rejoicing means satisfaction. Joy in the bible is not a "happy feeling." It means to be satisfied.
2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
The word earnest is ARRABON, which means guarantee. This is a guarantee of our inheritance. He has given us His Spirit. Please note the value that Paul places on the human. He considers that when it's time for him to die, he just torn down camp and left. He just packed up the tent!
It's just a place for us to live in while we're here. But there's going to be a new house to live in, a new body in heaven. In the meantime, God has given us His Spirit. He shows again the treasure that which is most valuable is the Spirit of God that's holding this tent, this clay dirt vessel together.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
Again, this is what's called the BEMA seat. This is not the Great White Throne Judgment. The BEMA seat is a judgment for believers. Non-believers will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.
2 Corinthians 6:1 - We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
The word vain means empty or for no reason.
2 Corinthians 6:2 - (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
In the Greek text, the word for succoured means to help.
2 Corinthians 6:4 - But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
The word patience is the word endurance. In afflictions (THLIPSIS, pressure or stress). In necessities. This is that straight narrow. You find yourself being closed in on. In distresses. This is the word for no way out.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
Ephesians 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
IN CHRIST.
I believe This speaks of Christ being the vehicle that was determined before the foundation of the world in which men would be saved. I believe it is Christ who is predestinated!
I believe God looks in his rear view mirror at the future.
He knows who will receive Christ.
I also believe John 3:16-20 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the LIGHT, neither cometh to the LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I also believe John 1:6-9
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.
Verse 12!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Predestination is never used in reference to unsaved people. God has never predestinated anybody to be lost.
If you are lost, it is because you have rejected God's remedy.
It is like a dying man to whom the doctor offers curing medicine. "If you take this, it'll heal you." The man looks at the doctor in amazement and says, "I don't believe you." Now the man dies and the doctor's report says he died of a certain disease, and that's accurate. But may I say to you, there was a remedy, and he actually died because he didn't take the remedy. God has provided a remedy. Let me repeat, God has never predestined anybody to be lost. That's where your free will comes in, and you have to determine for yourself what your choice will be. Predestination refers only to those who are saved. What it actually means is that when God starts out with one hundred sheep, He is going to come through with one hundred sheep. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" ( Rom. 8:28-29). Dr. R. A. Torrey used to say that this is a wonderful pillow for a tired heart. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. We're talking now about saved people. Romans goes on to explain how this is done. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" ( Rom. 8:30). When God starts out with one hundred sheep, He will come through with one hundred sheep.
If we say you don't know why or how God chooses his elect, how can you say "you do believe that our election is not because God looked forward in history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own or not?
Was not he using foreknowledge to choose you before the foundation of the world?
He knew you would sin right? yes!
When did he find that out?
When did he decide to send you a savior?
We know that God operates by his foreknowledge just by examining "When" Christ was ordained to be the substitute Lamb of God! BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also, when were we chosen? Before the foundation of the world! Ephesians 1:4.
There was a plan of redemption set forth before the curse was pronounce on the Earth and before the World began!
Apparently God knew Adam would sin.
You mentioned "Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace.
Gigi Paul is referencing the Un generated man as he stands without the Holy Spirit and him refusing the Life and light of the new birth which reveals the things of God.
This speaks of how he stands today as well as back then.
Paul is not making reference to the condition of man determining on when and how God made his Choice.
This is reward and Judgment which means there's conditions needed met and man couldn't meet those requirements!
Man had to believe and receive Christ.
The whosoever is an invitation to the world!
This is how it reads.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
About your inquiry about the "anathema" that Paul says in 1 Cor:16-22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."
There two ancient greek words that are very similar, that they are both wtitten in Engl as "anathema" but in grk that "e" is written with a different grk vowel. The first is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-thee-ma" and it means something which is dedicated to God, eg a sacrifice or a gift to God. The second (which is the one written in 1 Cor) is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-theh-ma" and it had several meanings in anc grk. 1. something that is offered to God for distruction, eg a sacrifice which will be burned, 2. people or things (including cities) that were to be distructed. Often these two are the meaning of the word in the OT, 3. something that is separated for distruction, ...
In Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" the precise translation is "that myself to be separated (for distruction) from Christ".
In 1 Cor 16:22 many translate it as "if any man does not love Lord Jesus Christ let him be separated for distruction (if he eventually doesn't believe in Him and repent in his life). And this seems to be the right interpretation of that verse.
And eventually in the following centuries the word anathema came to mean "a curse/cursed person/thing", and in the church terminology the "excommunication(separation) from the church".
We all have sinned and we "ALL" deserve our punishment.
God is merciful so he sent the Lamb of God to sacrifice. "Not to take away "sins" from man individually
He came to take away the SIN "that is the penalty of sin" John 1:29 reads "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (notice sin is singular)
1 John 2:2 we see "sins" is used. It's Plural! ( And he is the propitiation for our "SINS":
I believe this is because of the repeated charges against us because sin is still present with us. We have a great lawyer!
Look at what else verse 2 says AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!
God's atonement is not limited!
There's a portion of 2 Peter 2:1 that reads "even "DENYING" the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These people are not saved!
But the Lord's purchase Peter designates applies to them if they would accept it!
This proves that the atonement was not limited!
The synonym for fair is Just! That's fair!
Quote from J Vernon Mcgee on John 6:37.
Election and free will are both in this verse. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" is also true, and "him that cometh to me" is free will. I don't know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don't see into the machinery of heaven. I don't know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
Indeed, God does love the world. He loves all of His creation. And I did say that He does bestow common grace and mercy upon all humanity. Otherwise, we all would be consumed and destroyed the first time we actively sin. God has compassion on sinful man in many ways. However, Romans 1:18 does teach that God's wrath is upon all wickedness in those who suppress the truth. basically sinners. If I were to go by what you seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
I said in my writing that God's SAVING grace and mercy and love is given to the elect, but not to those He did not choose for salvation. If you are of the Arminian persuasion you would be aware that they teach about God's prevenient grace and also saving grace. I agree that God's grace comes to humans in different ways with differing effects as Arminius taught. But I am not Arminian in my thinking. I used to be for many decades, because that was all I really knew. But when I began to examine its teachings against Scripture, I moved away from that.
You said that I cannot attribute something that is for Israel for Christians. This is a tenet of dispensationalism, but is not from the Bible unless you can give me a Scripture that teaches so.
I know that you had some other questions for me. However, I do not wish to get into a back and forth, picking apart each others' viewpoints. I would much prefer that you do as I did-study these topics according to what Scripture says and then present your developed viewpoint on this forum so that others can read both viewpoints and go to Scriptures to see which one better explains what Scriptures do teach.
I appreciate that you are engaging with me. May the truth win out overall.
The Old Testament sacrifices and offerings was a foreshadowing of Christ, and the individual responsibility was on him and there were consequences. Some were saved and some were not!
They all were under the same influence and given the ability to receive according to his response. Faith in that economy system that pointed towards Christ.
When the brazen serpent in the bible was lifted up it was an invitation for all!
We got to be careful to describe God's Devine nature as something he chooses to be. God doesn't choose to love! God IS Love! God doesn't choose to be Righteous! God IS Righteous! God doesn't choose to be Just! God is supreme Justice and those attributes work together and never cease.
When we lay all those attributes out it paint a picture of a merciful, loving God who so loved the "WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son, that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (It doesn't say just the elect and it don't cause speculation in the righteousness of God!)
If we say we don't know then everything we present should be considered opinion not absolute.
We may not be able to fully comprehend the degree of Gods attributes to the fullest, but we know God ways is higher than ours!
SO, by the word of God and the indwelling spirit we are expected to display the love of God in our lives.
1 John 3:17-18 reads,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How do we reconcile God not giving the invitation and opportunity and shutteth up his bowels of compassion to a lost world what is required for salvation considering Matthew 7:13. "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
You referenced Jerimiah 3:13 in saying that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
Here is Jerimiah 3:13 "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Perhaps you had another verse in mind. Also, you can't take what was written for Israel and apply it to the church.
As requested, here is what I believe.
Part 1
When considering John 3:13-21 and many other scriptures and then to contribute God's Love, Mercy and Compassion to only the elect is error.
The scripture clearly says For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. John 3:16-17.
The invitation is to ALL!
Look at the conditions in verse 18)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
However you stated, We are not given the reason why He chooses some AND NOT OTHERS or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it. So I ask you, How is the Love of God and Mercy displayed to them?
Note;
I'm not asking how and why God chooses to do the things you say he do!
I'm asking how do God display the Love of God?
The crucifixion is God's Love on display!
This is important to understand considering Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY " Believing in God not to be in self man and woman to become godliness. Exercised practices such as reading holy bible, praying, fasting to become godliness". Defined Quoted result " edifiication,meditation,digest to goldly life by conversation. In truth, sincere, in faith, ferventy,purity. "To your life by "Heart"Quoted REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY "
I Timothy Verse 8
My Respond:
A worshipper of God ,one result is you have inner godliness.
I Pray to allow me to see God and be with God myself, with West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral, with supporting West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral. (eternal life)
Examples of myself REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Attending Service at West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral and prayer. 2023-2024 Volunteering Events. 2024 Sunday School, 2024 Through the bible Tuesday nights ,My personal ministries websites.
Thank you Giannis. Deuteronomy 7:6-8: "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
It seems that was already in God's Mind & Plan that He would 'create' a special people (as you mentioned), & that would happen coming out from the people of the world; and according to His Oath made to Israel's forefathers, setting His Love upon them. God could have chosen any people, but was it just a random selection/chance that the lot fell on Abraham & his progeny? Or did God already know that Abraham would be the one to obey the call & leave everything behind in obedience, in love & servitude to the Living God? Or, could God have selected a dozen possible men from the world & pick the one who showed the greatest propensity to obey & follow Him? We could have many options, but without God's Omniscience being at the forefront in His Elective Program, to me, nothing else seems to fit for understanding (to some degree) the mysterious workings of God.
It does make any difference whether we talk about Israel or the church when we refer to "selection". Both were selected, for different reasons but with the same way. Israel for bringing the Savior into the world and the church for bringing the Savior all over the world.
Has God chosen Israel? Actually the answer is that God didn't chose but actually created Israel through Abraham. So all Israel through the centuries was invited/selected to participate in His plan to bring the Savior on earth but not everybody was willing to participate. Everybody in that nation was selected but not everybody accepted that invitation. It says somewhere that (in my words) many are invited but few are selected. Why would God invite somebody whom He wouldn't want to save? Here the free will of people comes into account.
Similarly Judas was selected and invited to be an apostle but he didn't guard his heart and eventually loved money more than Jesus, and we know his end.
If God selects someone for any reason other than knowing beforehand their attitude towards His gospel, then He would had been an unrighteous God. And we know He is not. Jesus has revealed to us everything we need to know about God, His character, His attitudes, etc
There is a lot packed into this verse ( 2 Corinthians 4:4), and much more can be said but I tried to keep it short. Yes, I agree, Israel's blindness is temporary. God has made a promise to Israel and when the Lord returns, that promise will be fulfilled.
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
Brother Giannis. Always glad to hear from you & receive your understanding of the Word of God. This subject of election I have temporarily laid aside, as I await GiGi's commentary on it specifically, as she continues with her subject of God's Attributes/Character which I've appreciated very much.
But since you've raised it here, and cited Romans 9:9-16 in respect of Esau & Jacob, I also referred to this Scripture in my response as you've seen. My emphasis was on the fact that God's Sovereignty in Election in this case was based wholly on His choosing the descendency of Israel, His chosen people, and NOT for the salvation of their souls: each one in Israel, along with Isaac, Jacob, Esau & all of Israel, were still responsible before God for their faith, obedience, & devotion. So, there would be many in Israel, then & now, who would be rejected by God for salvation in spite of their Election, receiving the Law & Promises. Indeed, "not all Israel which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:4-6).
I understand from what you've shared here, that you too believe in the "foreknowledge of God" in His election of those to be saved. Romans 8:29,30 and 1 Peter 1:2 particularly reveal this Truth. Now, I realize that some have 'reinterpreted' 'Foreknowledge' (Gk. prognosis) to be in relation to His Sovereign Plan without any factor affecting it (whether from man or God Himself): i.e. He simply chooses & it happens. Whereas, I believe, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that 'Foreknowledge' in the New Testament refers to the prior knowledge of God, particularly seen in His Omniscience and Sovereign Plan. It implies God's prior knowledge of all events, all individuals, of all time, and quite often in the context of His redemptive purposes for mankind. This term is used to express the concept that God, in His infinite Wisdom, knows all things before they happen and has a predetermined plan for creation and salvation according to that knowledge. To Page 2.
May I intervene in your discusion with GiGi about the "elected" people? It is true that God selects people for salvation. But why does God select some persons over some other? The story of Jacob and Esau gives us the answer.
Romans 10-15, "10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
, 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
God selected Jacob over Esau not of works. actually both men were not born yet, but due to His grace. But how is that grace is granted to somebody? The lives of both men show the answer. Jacod wanted to receive the promises given to Abraham, Esau thought those promises were not of any value so he sold them to Jacob for some food, similarly Judas sold Jesus for some money. They both gave away the most valuable thing in the world for something useless, they completely humiliated God and His promises. Jacob didn't do any work so that the promises given to Abraham to be given to him, but simply believed in God's promises and went for them, Esau didn't. So God who knows beforehand what both men will do in the future selected Jacob. Just think if God selected Esau. How it would seem to us that God selects somebody who doesn't believe in Him and humiliates His promises? Not possible, isn't it? So God selects people according to how they will stand infront the salvation He offers to people through Jesus. It says somewhere that the will of God is that ALL people will be saved, but not everybody believes in Christ, so they are not selected.
Is the ' Word ' of John chapter one , the same as the Spirit of God in Genesis chapter one verse 2 ? Is that possible given that ' all things were made by him ' ? It fits with Jesus being the Word made flesh as Jesus was filled with God's Holy Spirit without measure . Therefore Jesus is the Spirit of God made flesh . John chapter one verse 14 : And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , ( and we beheld his glory as if the only begotten of the Father ,) . So the Word of John chapter one refers to the Spirit of God in Genesis chapter one and the Word was made flesh of John chapter one verse 14 is the man Jesus , who received the Spirit without measure , John chapter three verse 34 .
Luke chapter twenty four verse 45 .
Hebrews 4:14-5:10 KJV COGIC WORSHIP 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Jesus Christ is God. Jesus that makes intercedes on our behalf. I Worship God of forgiveness of sins,grace, holy-set free from sin, repentance. A God that makes you want to obey him and be like him. A God knee to bow and confess- Philippians 2:11
A God of prayer to do his will. A God of submission " My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY :mind,speaking,actions,attention of communications." God giving your confirmations- some definitions consecrated and ordained that is eternal life.
West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Isaiah 41 Verse 10
My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
"God doing everything he says he will for you of his Word examples such as complete,confirmation, comfortable whic is recieveing Jesus Christ in your heart( Romans 10:9-10) to believe and speak it by mouth faith of God to have and gain confidence to resist- James 4:7 and not covetousness. God gives abilities and makes you able to do it. Examples to do it are speaking, actions, attention of communications.
I Pray to God to be complete, God giving me confirmation in life and security. No challenges me having faith identity I John 3:2 KJV
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
2 Corinthians 7:4 - Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
The Greek word for boldness, PARESIA, has to do with confidence. It has to do with speaking openly in public without fear. Great is my confidence of speech toward you. Great is my boasting of you. The word glorying is actually the word boasting. I am filled with comfort, and that's the word encouragement. I am exceeding joyful in all of our tribulations, and that's the word THLIPSIS for stress. He's not just joyful in stressful situations. He's exceeding joyful!
2 Corinthians 7:5 - For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
The word for fightings is the literal word for physical combat. He's making reference here to some of the physical attacks that came against him while traveling and while ministering.
2 Corinthians 7:7 - And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
There are three things that Titus told Paul that was a blessing to Paul when he told us of your earnest desire, literally their desire upon Paul. They wanted to see Paul again. He says your mourning, that is, lamentation over your sin when he told us you were mourning over your sin.
The fervent mind is one word in Greek and it means to boil. They had a hot desire to get back with Paul again because they received his letter and saw that they were in error. Paul says, so that I rejoiced the more. Not just to see Titus, and not just the fact that Titus was ministered to by the people in Corinth, but that the people in Corinth wanted to see Paul again. And they were mourning over their sins, and they were back to having a fervent desire to be taught again.
2 Corinthians 7:2 Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man.
He says Receive us. The word receive in the Greek text (CHORESATE) literally means to make room. Make room for us. He's making reference back to where he mentioned in Chapter 6 about having enlarged my heart to you. He says I've opened my heart to you. Now I'm calling on you to make room for us in your heart.
And he says three things that he did not do to them to emphasize that there's no reason for them to not open up to him, except that they're influenced by false teachers. First of all, he says we have wronged no man. The word wronged is the word injustice. In other words, we have treated no one unjustly.
Secondly, we have corrupted no man. This corruption, PHTHEIRO, has to do with teaching and speaking. In Ephesians Chapter 5, Paul always used it to do with let your speech be with grace, and not in corruption to the hearers. So, he says we haven't corrupted anyone with our teaching.
And thirdly, we have defrauded no man. The word defraud has to do with covetousness or desiring to want what other people have. We'll see later on in this letter that he says we are not pursuing you because of what you have. We're pursuing you because of your soul. So, he says we haven't treated anyone unjustly. We have corrupted no man with false teaching. We haven't defrauded anyone by coveting the things that they have.
2 Corinthians 7:3 - I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.
The phrase "with you," goes with both die and live in the Greek text. What he's saying is that they and he are so attached, they are at such one with each other that if they live, he lives, and if they die, he dies. He's not going to turn around and walk away from them. He's attached!
2 Corinthians 6:12 - Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
You are not straitened in us, and the word straightened means limited, but you are limited in your own bowels. And that's what the word means, SPLUNKNOS in Greek, which is the intestines. And the Greeks used the inner organs of the body to represent deep down compassion, rather than the surface.
So, he says you've closed up your bowels of compassion. You've limited yourself. My heart is wide open. I'm sharing with you, my heart. I'm not getting it back!
2 Corinthians 6:15 - And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
The word concord is a Greek word from where we get our word Symphony from. It means agreement. SUMPHONE is the word.
2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
The word holiness is the word sanctification. He says you've been sanctified. You've been set apart for Christ. And we keep trying in the human social to cross the line and be socially joined and get our social needs met. But at the same time Paul is saying that you cannot compromise your walk with the Lord by getting involved in situations and with people that are going to influence your relationship with Christ and affect your effectiveness in your walk with Christ.
Therefore, perfect, mature the sanctification. We are sanctified the very moment that God's Spirit comes into our spirit. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica to walk in your sanctification. We are to cleanse ourselves and do this in the perfecting of sanctification, maturing in the lifestyle of sanctification, drawing closer to Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:5 - In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
In stripes, that is beatings. In imprisonments. In tumults, which are riots. In labours, and that's just physical working to the point of exhaustion. In watchings. This is just a King James way of saying going without sleep.
In fastings; and I think it's kind of interesting that Paul always used the word fasting to say to go without food. He never presents the fact that if he didn't have food, it's because he's going without food, and it must be time to fast because God didn't provide food. I think that's fascinating! So, in all of these conditions, if you find yourself in them, give no offence, so the ministry is not blamed.
2 Corinthians 6:6 - By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
By pureness. This is a word associated with sanctification. It means to be morally separate and pure. Through knowledge. Through longsuffering, that is, patience with people, slow in human reaction. Through kindness. That's the word for usefulness.
Through the Holy Spirit. And you're probably thinking "wait a minute now!" It's no misuse of the Holy Spirit. It's either through the Spirit of God or it's not. Don't try to do your own thing and say it's the Spirit of God. By love unfeigned. The word unfeigned means hypocrisy. This is through unfeigned and un-hypocritical love, love that's not acting. It's got to be genuine!
2 Corinthians 6:10 - As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
As sorrowful, and yet always rejoicing; The word rejoicing means satisfaction. Joy in the bible is not a "happy feeling." It means to be satisfied.
2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
The word earnest is ARRABON, which means guarantee. This is a guarantee of our inheritance. He has given us His Spirit. Please note the value that Paul places on the human. He considers that when it's time for him to die, he just torn down camp and left. He just packed up the tent!
It's just a place for us to live in while we're here. But there's going to be a new house to live in, a new body in heaven. In the meantime, God has given us His Spirit. He shows again the treasure that which is most valuable is the Spirit of God that's holding this tent, this clay dirt vessel together.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
Again, this is what's called the BEMA seat. This is not the Great White Throne Judgment. The BEMA seat is a judgment for believers. Non-believers will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.
2 Corinthians 6:1 - We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
The word vain means empty or for no reason.
2 Corinthians 6:2 - (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
In the Greek text, the word for succoured means to help.
2 Corinthians 6:4 - But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
The word patience is the word endurance. In afflictions (THLIPSIS, pressure or stress). In necessities. This is that straight narrow. You find yourself being closed in on. In distresses. This is the word for no way out.
Part 9.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
Blessings
Part 8.
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
This is what Roman 9 is talking about.
See Part 9
Romans 9:4-11.
PT 7
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
See 8
Part 6.
Predestinated.
Ephesians 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
IN CHRIST.
I believe This speaks of Christ being the vehicle that was determined before the foundation of the world in which men would be saved. I believe it is Christ who is predestinated!
I believe God looks in his rear view mirror at the future.
He knows who will receive Christ.
I also believe John 3:16-20 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the LIGHT, neither cometh to the LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I also believe John 1:6-9
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.
Verse 12!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
See Part 7
Predestination.
Predestination is never used in reference to unsaved people. God has never predestinated anybody to be lost.
If you are lost, it is because you have rejected God's remedy.
It is like a dying man to whom the doctor offers curing medicine. "If you take this, it'll heal you." The man looks at the doctor in amazement and says, "I don't believe you." Now the man dies and the doctor's report says he died of a certain disease, and that's accurate. But may I say to you, there was a remedy, and he actually died because he didn't take the remedy. God has provided a remedy. Let me repeat, God has never predestined anybody to be lost. That's where your free will comes in, and you have to determine for yourself what your choice will be. Predestination refers only to those who are saved. What it actually means is that when God starts out with one hundred sheep, He is going to come through with one hundred sheep. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" ( Rom. 8:28-29). Dr. R. A. Torrey used to say that this is a wonderful pillow for a tired heart. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. We're talking now about saved people. Romans goes on to explain how this is done. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" ( Rom. 8:30). When God starts out with one hundred sheep, He will come through with one hundred sheep.
You must admit that that is a good percentage.
J Vernon Mcgee.
See Part 6
Part 4.
If we say you don't know why or how God chooses his elect, how can you say "you do believe that our election is not because God looked forward in history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own or not?
Was not he using foreknowledge to choose you before the foundation of the world?
He knew you would sin right? yes!
When did he find that out?
When did he decide to send you a savior?
We know that God operates by his foreknowledge just by examining "When" Christ was ordained to be the substitute Lamb of God! BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also, when were we chosen? Before the foundation of the world! Ephesians 1:4.
There was a plan of redemption set forth before the curse was pronounce on the Earth and before the World began!
Apparently God knew Adam would sin.
You mentioned "Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace.
Gigi Paul is referencing the Un generated man as he stands without the Holy Spirit and him refusing the Life and light of the new birth which reveals the things of God.
This speaks of how he stands today as well as back then.
Paul is not making reference to the condition of man determining on when and how God made his Choice.
This is reward and Judgment which means there's conditions needed met and man couldn't meet those requirements!
Man had to believe and receive Christ.
The whosoever is an invitation to the world!
This is how it reads.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
See Part 5
About your inquiry about the "anathema" that Paul says in 1 Cor:16-22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."
There two ancient greek words that are very similar, that they are both wtitten in Engl as "anathema" but in grk that "e" is written with a different grk vowel. The first is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-thee-ma" and it means something which is dedicated to God, eg a sacrifice or a gift to God. The second (which is the one written in 1 Cor) is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-theh-ma" and it had several meanings in anc grk. 1. something that is offered to God for distruction, eg a sacrifice which will be burned, 2. people or things (including cities) that were to be distructed. Often these two are the meaning of the word in the OT, 3. something that is separated for distruction, ...
In Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" the precise translation is "that myself to be separated (for distruction) from Christ".
In 1 Cor 16:22 many translate it as "if any man does not love Lord Jesus Christ let him be separated for distruction (if he eventually doesn't believe in Him and repent in his life). And this seems to be the right interpretation of that verse.
And eventually in the following centuries the word anathema came to mean "a curse/cursed person/thing", and in the church terminology the "excommunication(separation) from the church".
Part 3
God righteousness also means he's fair and just.
We all have sinned and we "ALL" deserve our punishment.
God is merciful so he sent the Lamb of God to sacrifice. "Not to take away "sins" from man individually
He came to take away the SIN "that is the penalty of sin" John 1:29 reads "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (notice sin is singular)
1 John 2:2 we see "sins" is used. It's Plural! ( And he is the propitiation for our "SINS":
I believe this is because of the repeated charges against us because sin is still present with us. We have a great lawyer!
Look at what else verse 2 says AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!
God's atonement is not limited!
There's a portion of 2 Peter 2:1 that reads "even "DENYING" the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These people are not saved!
But the Lord's purchase Peter designates applies to them if they would accept it!
This proves that the atonement was not limited!
The synonym for fair is Just! That's fair!
Quote from J Vernon Mcgee on John 6:37.
Election and free will are both in this verse. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" is also true, and "him that cometh to me" is free will. I don't know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don't see into the machinery of heaven. I don't know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
See Part 4
Jeremiah 31:3 is the verse I meant.
Thank you for sharing a bit of your viewpoint.
Indeed, God does love the world. He loves all of His creation. And I did say that He does bestow common grace and mercy upon all humanity. Otherwise, we all would be consumed and destroyed the first time we actively sin. God has compassion on sinful man in many ways. However, Romans 1:18 does teach that God's wrath is upon all wickedness in those who suppress the truth. basically sinners. If I were to go by what you seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
I said in my writing that God's SAVING grace and mercy and love is given to the elect, but not to those He did not choose for salvation. If you are of the Arminian persuasion you would be aware that they teach about God's prevenient grace and also saving grace. I agree that God's grace comes to humans in different ways with differing effects as Arminius taught. But I am not Arminian in my thinking. I used to be for many decades, because that was all I really knew. But when I began to examine its teachings against Scripture, I moved away from that.
You said that I cannot attribute something that is for Israel for Christians. This is a tenet of dispensationalism, but is not from the Bible unless you can give me a Scripture that teaches so.
I know that you had some other questions for me. However, I do not wish to get into a back and forth, picking apart each others' viewpoints. I would much prefer that you do as I did-study these topics according to what Scripture says and then present your developed viewpoint on this forum so that others can read both viewpoints and go to Scriptures to see which one better explains what Scriptures do teach.
I appreciate that you are engaging with me. May the truth win out overall.
Part 2
The Old Testament sacrifices and offerings was a foreshadowing of Christ, and the individual responsibility was on him and there were consequences. Some were saved and some were not!
They all were under the same influence and given the ability to receive according to his response. Faith in that economy system that pointed towards Christ.
When the brazen serpent in the bible was lifted up it was an invitation for all!
We got to be careful to describe God's Devine nature as something he chooses to be. God doesn't choose to love! God IS Love! God doesn't choose to be Righteous! God IS Righteous! God doesn't choose to be Just! God is supreme Justice and those attributes work together and never cease.
When we lay all those attributes out it paint a picture of a merciful, loving God who so loved the "WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son, that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (It doesn't say just the elect and it don't cause speculation in the righteousness of God!)
If we say we don't know then everything we present should be considered opinion not absolute.
We may not be able to fully comprehend the degree of Gods attributes to the fullest, but we know God ways is higher than ours!
SO, by the word of God and the indwelling spirit we are expected to display the love of God in our lives.
1 John 3:17-18 reads,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How do we reconcile God not giving the invitation and opportunity and shutteth up his bowels of compassion to a lost world what is required for salvation considering Matthew 7:13. "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
See Part 3
You referenced Jerimiah 3:13 in saying that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
Here is Jerimiah 3:13 "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Perhaps you had another verse in mind. Also, you can't take what was written for Israel and apply it to the church.
As requested, here is what I believe.
Part 1
When considering John 3:13-21 and many other scriptures and then to contribute God's Love, Mercy and Compassion to only the elect is error.
The scripture clearly says For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. John 3:16-17.
The invitation is to ALL!
Look at the conditions in verse 18)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
However you stated, We are not given the reason why He chooses some AND NOT OTHERS or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it. So I ask you, How is the Love of God and Mercy displayed to them?
Note;
I'm not asking how and why God chooses to do the things you say he do!
I'm asking how do God display the Love of God?
The crucifixion is God's Love on display!
This is important to understand considering Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
See part 2
West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
I Timothy Verse 7
My interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY " Believing in God not to be in self man and woman to become godliness. Exercised practices such as reading holy bible, praying, fasting to become godliness". Defined Quoted result " edifiication,meditation,digest to goldly life by conversation. In truth, sincere, in faith, ferventy,purity. "To your life by "Heart"Quoted REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY "
I Timothy Verse 8
My Respond:
A worshipper of God ,one result is you have inner godliness.
I Pray to allow me to see God and be with God myself, with West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral, with supporting West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral. (eternal life)
Examples of myself REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Attending Service at West Angeles Church Cogic Cathedral and prayer. 2023-2024 Volunteering Events. 2024 Sunday School, 2024 Through the bible Tuesday nights ,My personal ministries websites.
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
It seems that was already in God's Mind & Plan that He would 'create' a special people (as you mentioned), & that would happen coming out from the people of the world; and according to His Oath made to Israel's forefathers, setting His Love upon them. God could have chosen any people, but was it just a random selection/chance that the lot fell on Abraham & his progeny? Or did God already know that Abraham would be the one to obey the call & leave everything behind in obedience, in love & servitude to the Living God? Or, could God have selected a dozen possible men from the world & pick the one who showed the greatest propensity to obey & follow Him? We could have many options, but without God's Omniscience being at the forefront in His Elective Program, to me, nothing else seems to fit for understanding (to some degree) the mysterious workings of God.
It does make any difference whether we talk about Israel or the church when we refer to "selection". Both were selected, for different reasons but with the same way. Israel for bringing the Savior into the world and the church for bringing the Savior all over the world.
Has God chosen Israel? Actually the answer is that God didn't chose but actually created Israel through Abraham. So all Israel through the centuries was invited/selected to participate in His plan to bring the Savior on earth but not everybody was willing to participate. Everybody in that nation was selected but not everybody accepted that invitation. It says somewhere that (in my words) many are invited but few are selected. Why would God invite somebody whom He wouldn't want to save? Here the free will of people comes into account.
Similarly Judas was selected and invited to be an apostle but he didn't guard his heart and eventually loved money more than Jesus, and we know his end.
If God selects someone for any reason other than knowing beforehand their attitude towards His gospel, then He would had been an unrighteous God. And we know He is not. Jesus has revealed to us everything we need to know about God, His character, His attitudes, etc
There is a lot packed into this verse ( 2 Corinthians 4:4), and much more can be said but I tried to keep it short. Yes, I agree, Israel's blindness is temporary. God has made a promise to Israel and when the Lord returns, that promise will be fulfilled.
Blessings to you also!
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
Brother Giannis. Always glad to hear from you & receive your understanding of the Word of God. This subject of election I have temporarily laid aside, as I await GiGi's commentary on it specifically, as she continues with her subject of God's Attributes/Character which I've appreciated very much.
But since you've raised it here, and cited Romans 9:9-16 in respect of Esau & Jacob, I also referred to this Scripture in my response as you've seen. My emphasis was on the fact that God's Sovereignty in Election in this case was based wholly on His choosing the descendency of Israel, His chosen people, and NOT for the salvation of their souls: each one in Israel, along with Isaac, Jacob, Esau & all of Israel, were still responsible before God for their faith, obedience, & devotion. So, there would be many in Israel, then & now, who would be rejected by God for salvation in spite of their Election, receiving the Law & Promises. Indeed, "not all Israel which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:4-6).
I understand from what you've shared here, that you too believe in the "foreknowledge of God" in His election of those to be saved. Romans 8:29,30 and 1 Peter 1:2 particularly reveal this Truth. Now, I realize that some have 'reinterpreted' 'Foreknowledge' (Gk. prognosis) to be in relation to His Sovereign Plan without any factor affecting it (whether from man or God Himself): i.e. He simply chooses & it happens. Whereas, I believe, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that 'Foreknowledge' in the New Testament refers to the prior knowledge of God, particularly seen in His Omniscience and Sovereign Plan. It implies God's prior knowledge of all events, all individuals, of all time, and quite often in the context of His redemptive purposes for mankind. This term is used to express the concept that God, in His infinite Wisdom, knows all things before they happen and has a predetermined plan for creation and salvation according to that knowledge. To Page 2.
May I intervene in your discusion with GiGi about the "elected" people? It is true that God selects people for salvation. But why does God select some persons over some other? The story of Jacob and Esau gives us the answer.
Romans 10-15, "10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
, 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
God selected Jacob over Esau not of works. actually both men were not born yet, but due to His grace. But how is that grace is granted to somebody? The lives of both men show the answer. Jacod wanted to receive the promises given to Abraham, Esau thought those promises were not of any value so he sold them to Jacob for some food, similarly Judas sold Jesus for some money. They both gave away the most valuable thing in the world for something useless, they completely humiliated God and His promises. Jacob didn't do any work so that the promises given to Abraham to be given to him, but simply believed in God's promises and went for them, Esau didn't. So God who knows beforehand what both men will do in the future selected Jacob. Just think if God selected Esau. How it would seem to us that God selects somebody who doesn't believe in Him and humiliates His promises? Not possible, isn't it? So God selects people according to how they will stand infront the salvation He offers to people through Jesus. It says somewhere that the will of God is that ALL people will be saved, but not everybody believes in Christ, so they are not selected.