Carleton, great meditation. Yes, the Spirit knows us through and through, all of us. He can discern between thoughts, intentions, motives, and the struggle we wage between the sinful nature and the reborn spirit within us. We can never fool God, for sure. And so, we should always remember that He desires truth in our inward parts before Him. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us. What a good feeling it is to stand cleansed before our Maker. It is the best way to be!
I appreciate the way you connected the Spirit's parting of the waters in Genesis to the Spirits dividing between our soul and spirit by the Word of God ( Heb. 4:12)
Hi David0921. Apologies for intruding into your conversation with Jimbob, but wanted to also refer you to 1 Thessalonians 5:23, as you spend time in Hebrews 4:12. There seems to be a clear distinction made in describing tripartite man, especially noting the contiguous nature of soul and spirit.
Good evening! An evening meditation. In the generations of Genesis, God and His Spirit can divide waters from waters and many other wonders, even soul and spirit and He can divide our thoughts and intents of the heart.
Those are some great questions and I also want to say amen to your entire post. I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it seems as though a majority of the things being said have nothing to do with brother Carlton's original post. There are a few responses from the beginning that were relevant to his post (yours being one), but it seems as though it went off topic pretty quickly. I wanted to chime in a few times but what you posted is perfect. I'm am interested in reading the response to your questions.
proud shall be abased, and the poor shall be exalted; the high and lofty shall be brought down, and the meek and upright shall be set up; Truth shall reign as King, and deceit shall utterly be confounded; they that now suffer all manner of evil for the Name of Jesus, shall possess everlasting freedom, and the dominion shall be in their hands, and they that now cause the just to suffer, shall go into endless captivity, the seed of God shall spring forth and flourish, but the seed of evil-doers shall never be renowned: And betwixt these two seeds is an enmity put, and they can never be reconciled, each seed hath his fruit, the one is cursed and the other is blessed, and each seed is known by its fruit, and must receive from the Lord accordingly.
And this is the testimony of the servants of the Lord, and the witness which they give unto all the world of those things which we have handled, tasted, heard, seen and felt; blessed are all they that can receive it.
We are known to God in the Spirit, and one to another in his life, and are known in the world by the name of Quakers, cast upon us through the derision of the heathen.
But Quaking and trembling at the Word of the Lord; by the servants of the Lord, we do own, when the power of God reaches to the witness of God in the creature, which brings condemnation upon all high looks, and upon the lofty nature, which causes the earthly part to tremble, we do own and many of us do witness, the Quaking and Trembling which is by the operation of the Spirit of God, and the several operations by the one Spirit we own: which brings down proud flesh, whose honor God will lay in the dust, and bring it to everlasting contempt, and when this comes to pass, quaking shall not be a strange thing, nor the Name reproached as it is at this day by the proud spirits of men, who knows not the work of the Lord, nor the operation of his Spirit.
The Acts 2 passage (and also in Acts 13) are teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation in Paul's and Peter's preaching. In doing so they are referencing Psalm 16 and providing a commentary on this Psalm and it is very clear that The Holy One spoken of in these verses is Christ Himself, not David the man.
Christ endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, in full payment for the sins of His Elect and then rose from that death. It is Christ's soul, not David's soul that is in view.
I have always understood the Soul to be the Spirit essence of an individual, and therefore synonymous. So mankind has a physical BODY and a Spirit essence, his SOUL. But the Hebrews 4:12 verse is interesting. I have some thoughts about that verse but not prepared to share yet.
But I'm puzzled by your differentiating between the Soul and the Spirit of man. So are you saying that mankind has a Body, a Soul, and a Spirit? Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea a bit. Are you aware of any other verses that teach that three-way differentiation?
And how do you understand what it means to be Born Again? Does that occur in the Spirit or the Soul?
And what is the Spiritual Body in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TODAY SHALT THOUGH BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
The passage above is Christ applying Salvation to one of His Elect before our very eyes. Causing that thief on the cross. to become Born Again, to receive his RESURRECTED SOUL.
And no, Christ was not lying to him.
So that thief died and was buried and his body has returned to the dust. But that thief was indeed with Christ in Heaven, in Paradise at the moment of his physical death. And will be returning with Christ in his Soul Existence to receive his glorified Spiritual Body at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
What you are suggesting is a complete denial of what it means to become "saved", to become Born Again.
Yes! "the SOUL that sineth it shall die". And apart from God's mercy in Salvation (in Christ having endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, the full penalty for the sins of those whom He saves) that is indeed the fate of all Mankind, Eternal Death.
Chap 19 A Standard lifted up & an Ensign unto all Nations.
Concerning mans state in the first Adam before conversion, and his state after conversion, and what conversion is.
Man's state in the first Adam in transgression, is a state of perfect enmity against God, and death reigns in every man, and he is possessed with blindness and ignorance, and unbelief, and is wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods Kingdom, or to act any thing for God acceptable to him; man in that state is wholly dead to God, and insensible of the presence, and power, and life of his Creator, for he is drove from God, and is not led by him, he hath no power to perform any good in the sight of God, but is possessed with evil, and led into all evil continually; he is free from righteousness, and free to all evil, being the servant of the Devil, and subject to him, and overcome of him every moment, and is led by him to transgresses against the Lord;
against the Lord; his heart is unclean, and out of it proceeds continually uncleanness in all manner of words, thoughts, and actions, which flows out of the corrupt fountain, which grieves and vexes the Lord and his Spirit, who is dishonored daily by man through his abuse of Gods creatures, who is a devourer and destroyer of them, and not a preserver as he ought to be, who abuses' them upon his lust, and not to the glory of the Lord; he loves the creature and worships the creature, and is gone a whoring after the creatures, and hath forgotten God that made him and all things, and hath lost his own dominion wherein he was set in his Creation, and his state in his transgression is cursed of God, and without the peace of God, it being in the enmity against him; and in all things he is wholly unprofitable to his Maker, and only profitable to himself and to the Devil, and this in short is the state of every man in transgression before conversion; but his state after conversion is a state more blessed, for man is changed, and renewed, and translated by the power of the Lord, through the working of the eternal Spirit through conversion, his mind is changed, and his heart is renewed, the old is done away, and a new heart is given, and all things are become new, even every word and work, and every intent and purpose of his mind, is converted into another end, and guided by another spirit than before his conversion; and man is again returned to God, into the sense and feeling of his Maker, and into covenant with him where he is blessed, and all things to him; for the reconciliation is made with God, and the evil is judged and condemned, and sin is taken away and blotted out, and not remembered: for man is become servant unto God, and only serves him in all things, and not himself or any other creature in any thing, for he hath received power to become sons to God, and hath received power over the Devil and his
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
sight, and the new man is brought forth, and the creating in Christ Jesus unto good works is known, and the birth, which is heir of Gods Kingdom is witnessed, and unto this man is the Lord become an everlasting light and a sure hiding place, for he is not the servant of sin but of righteousness, nor an offence to God in any of his works, but for his names sake is well pleased with him; he is his teacher in all the ways of peace, he is his helmet, and his shield, and his hope of salvation, and his Shephard to feed him and preserve him at all times; though he may be tempted, yet he is not overcome, for God is his strength, though he may be tried, yet not forsaken of the Lord; though he may be cast into the fire it is not to consume him, for the Lord is with him; all things he receives as from the hand of God, & all creatures he enjoys in the Covenant with God, and peace is in all his ways, for it is the Lord that works in him both to will and to do of his own good pleasure; and this is the state of the new man brought forth in conversion, which is a turning of the creature from the power of Satan (which rules in every man before conversion), to the power of God which is the ruler of every man that is truly converted; and this is the truth as it is in Jesus, which I have received from God, he that can receive it let him, and if any have an ear let him hear what the Spirit saithe; this conversion of the creature is wrought by the Spirit of God through the Ministry sent of him, and even for this cause have we received the Ministry of God, through the Holy Ghost, that we might publish these things abroad, that all people may come to the knowledge of them, and may taste, and handle, and feel of the same Word of life in themselves, which will reveal the knowledge of these things to them that they may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
And now be it known to all the world, and to all people in it, that the Lord hath raised up a people and brought forth a seed, to bear witness of his Name, and of his dominion, and power in all the earth, and of these truths with many more, which are but one in Christ Jesus, hath God given us the perfect knowledge of, even wrought them in us, and revealed them to us by the eternal Spirit, and as that same Spirit doth, and shall move us, do we and shall we bear witness of these truths unto all people upon earth whatsoever, both by doctrine and conversation, holding forth the testimony unto others which we have received of God, that Christ may be exalted, and his Kingdom set up in the world, and in comparison of this, that we may serve God in our generation, by bearing witness of these things, which we have heard and seen; nothing of this world, our liberty, our life, nor any other thing whatsoever, is not dear unto us; yea, even for this cause, that the Name of the Lord may be testified of, do we give up our selves continually to suffer all manner of evil in words or works; and we love not our lives unto death, that truth and righteousness may be exalted, and this is the cause wherefore we pass through many dangers on every hand, and are in perils often, and we are not, nor cannot be afraid of the face of any man, even that the Lord alone may be exalted, whose Name, and Honor, and Truth is more dear unto us than any other thing; and for it have we forsaken all, and counted it as nothing in comparison of the knowledge of Christ, and his truth herein declared and witnessed to the whole world to whom it shall come, and the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do only commend my self and these truths to be witnessed.
And know ye assuredly that God, who is just and righteous in all his ways', it is he that sets the way of life and the way of death before every man, and he hath appeared in this generation, and he hath caused his voice to be heard in the earth, and he hath set the way of death and the way of life before you, and all that perish it is through unbelief; and because they do despise the way which God hath prepared, who hath prepared a way for life and salvation unto all people, that all may come to life and salvation, and may not perish, and he hath not shut out any creature before he was brought forth into the world, but giveth to every one that cometh into the world a day of visitation and a time of repentance and returning, that healing may be received from the Lord, who is the restorer of lost man, and there is not another; so that if man perish, it is of himself, and not of God, who hath so loved mankind, that he hath given his Son, his own wisdom and his power into the world, that all that doth receive him (Christ Jesus) may have everlasting life, and they that receive him not, they perish because of unbelief, whereby they are hardened for destruction, and unto such our Gospel, the Gospel of God is hid, whose eye is blinded by the god of this world, that they cannot see the things which be eternal, nor believe in him from whence life comes, and such are stumbling at Christ the foundation, and therefore shall be broken, and must not inherit the kingdom of God, and unto such, though they be wise in the kingdom of this world, are we become fools for Christ sake, and our testimony cannot be received by them, nor approved of them, even them that seek after a sign, and them that seek after wisdom, to such we are not known, nor can our testimony be acceptable to them which is not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in the demonstration of God Spirit, and in simplicity of truth, which is of great price with the Lord,
even above knowledge and all wisdom, which is of this world which comes to nothing, but the Lord will confound that and bring it to nothing, for the world by its wisdom doth not know God, neither can it receive the things of God, but is foolishness in the sight of God, and the wisdom of the world must be offended in him, and in the testimony which is given of him, and the Princes of this world, and the wise men must stumble and fall, the powers of the earth must be offended at him, that they may be confounded and brought to naught, all the heathen shall rage, and the people shall imagine a vain thing: but what of all this, the testimony of the Lord is true which he hath given us to bear of his Name, and of it we are not ashamed before the face of the whole world, and we are armed to suffer for it, and not only to subscribe to the truth of it with our hand, or to declare of it with our tongue and pen, but also if we be called to it, may seal it with our blood: Wherefore this is sent among you all, Rulers, Teachers and people in all the world; this is sent among: you as to give you the certain knowledge of what we hold and bear witness to, which is received of us from God, and born witnesses of to you by his Spirit, even those things with many others which we have not received from man but from God, are we purposed in the Lord to declare abroad, and he hath put it into our hearts to fulfill his will herein; for he hath spoken, who can but prophesy, and he hath given the word, and many are they that publish it in faithfulness against the kingdom of the man of sin, which hath long been exalted in the earth over the seed of God, which the Lord is now a gathering and establishing his Covenant with, an Jerusalem that hath long lain waste, shall be made the praise of the whole earth, and the Gentiles which hath polluted her shall be cast out, and the Saints shall rejoice over all their enemies.
And know you assuredly from us, who know the Lord, that God is doing great things in the earth, he is begun to work and his arm shall bring it to pass, he will overturn and overturn, till he come to reign whose right it is, who will change times and things, even that which cannot be believed, though a man declare it unto you, is the Lord bringing to pass; the eye shall blesse that sees it, and the heart shall praise that can understand, and behold the Lord comes quickly, and they are blessed that waits for him, whose reward is with him, and his glorious work is before him to be wrought by his own hand without the help of any other; who needs not the help of man, and yet that man that doth oppose him, shall be overthrown, confounded and destroyed, And again: all the Kings, Princes, Rulers, and People whatsoever, know ye assuredly that we are not enemies against, but friends unto all Civil Government, and to all just and righteous orders and decrees, and wholesome Law and Customs of any Common-wealth, and no way are we destructive to, or destroyers of the Peace, and welfare, and wholesome Laws (which is according to God) of any Nation whatsoever. But are preservers of the peace of all people, and waits in patience for the establishment of justice and true judgement, and that righteousness may spring forth, and the Government of all Nations may be according to the Law of God. Neither are we such who makes void the just Government of any Nation or City; neither are we such who through evil purposes, plotted, or conspired, or contrives evil in our hearts against any Governors or Government whatsoever; but wishes peace and truth, and the fear of the Lord unto all men and Nations, and desires not the overthrow or evil to any people, or their Government: but is subject to just Government every
where by obedience to it, and subject to evil Government by suffering in patience under it; so that righteousness alone we wait to see set up through the world, and for that cause suffereth patiently under our enemies, not seeking revenge against them, nor envying the persons of any; but pities our enemies, and desires their repentance rather than their destruction: Yet this we give all to know, that the Lord will be avenged on all them who hates the way of righteousness, and all that opposes the Lord and his way, and despises his truth which he hath revealed, they shall be confounded and broken to pieces, and shall confess to the Lord, and his way, and his truth in the day of their destruction.
Again, let all the earth know, that against all unrighteousness, injustice, oppression, whoredom, murder and drunkenness', and all sin whatsoever, we do declare and acknowledge our selves to be enemies against all sin, and they that commit it, and we cannot hide sin and iniquity in any, but gives our testimony against it, and against all that live in it whatsoever, without respect to men or places, and cannot flatter any man in his transgressions, but saithe, that lying, swearing, drunkenness, covetousness, injustice, dissimulation, hypocrisies, murder, and envy, lust of the flesh, pride and wantonness, and all the works of the flesh whatsoever, are contrary to God, and of the devil, and they that lives in them, and brings them forth, are the servants of the devil, and must not inherit that kingdom of God, who brings forth those works which grieves the Spirit of God, and vexes his righteous soul, and this is that Government only which is the Government of sin and death, which we declare our selves enemies to, which is of the devil and not of God; and this is that Government which we testifies against, and wars against by the sword of the Spirit of God, and by his power, and not
by the carnal weapons or subtle conspiracies', or violent insurrections; for this way, and by this means shall not the Government of Satan be overthrown, or the kingdom of Christ ever exalted.
Again, let all the world know, that we are not such as disannuls or makes void the Covenant and bond of Relations, or teach any so to do, or give any example by our practice to any subjects to be rebellious to their Governors, or children to be disobedient to their Parents, or that servants be undutiful to their Masters. But on the contrary, doth say and affirm it, that it is the duty of Subjects to be obedient and subject in the Lord to their Rulers and Governors, whether Kings, Dukes or others, who have rule over them; and also that Children should be obedient to their Parents; and Servants to be dutiful and subject to their Masters in the Lord in all things, and that Husbands and Wives live in all unity and peace in the Lord: Provided only, where Rulers, Parents, or Masters, or Husbands required of their Subjects, Children or Servants or any other whatsoever, requiring of their relations that which is unjust and contrary to God and his righteous law; in such a case we say, that Subjects, Children, Servants, and all other whatsoever are free, and we say, where man requires any thing contrary to God, and God requires another thing contrary to man, the obedience to God is rather to be chosen, and the obedience to all men is to be denied; and this is our judgement which is according to truth, and is the mind of God concerning subjection and obedience, and the duty of Relations one to another.
And lastly, know ye assuredly that we do not hold and maintain any thing by conversation or doctrine, but the very same truth in word and practice, as all our fore-Fathers did, but bears witness of the same salvation by the same Christ as they did, and are not setters forth of
strange gods, for no other God is worshipped by us than he, which Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the rest of the servants of the Lord in every generation worshipped, served and obeyed, neither are we such as doth maintain Heresies, Error, or Idolatry, or the worship of any strange god, though hereof we are accused falsely, yet against us cannot it be proved truly, and this we give the whole world to know, that no other end, or purpose, or design is in our hearts, but only to fulfil the will of God in all things as it is to us made manifest. Even this is the resolution of our hearts, and the full purpose of our minds. to give testimony through the world as we are moved, both by writing and declaring of these Truths which to us is known from the Lord, that truth and righteousness may come to reign, and this may we do as the Lord provides way for us, nor fearing the face of any man, nor being afraid of the threatening of high looks, and that we may finish the testimony given us of God, our life nor any other thing is dear unto us, and all ye people every where, for your sake is this written to come abroad amongst you, to give you warning and true information of the work of the Lord, and what he is about to do, that you may hear and understand, and may receive the knowledge of those things which belong to your peace, and may be saved with an eternal salvation, or otherwise through this are you wholly left without excuse if you perish: And unto this was I pressed in spirit for many days, that all the world may be satisfied, what we are, and what we hold, and what the purpose of the Lord is; and I whom God hath warned, do warn all people upon the face of the earth, that you prepare, prepare to meet the Lord, for his coming and his day is nigh at hand, and his judgements shall be revealed in the Earth, and all flesh shall tremble before him, and all the inhabitants of the world shall be confounded at his presence; The
Moreover and besides all this, let all the world know, that our conversation, life and practice is one and the same with what we hold forth in words, and that we give as large a testimony of God amongst us by pure conversation as doctrine, and doth deny them who gives testimony in words only, and answers not in their conversation, for that is hypocrisies, and our souls loath it, and it is abomination in the sight of the Lord, where he is profess in words, and not walked to in purity and righteousness of life, for righteousness being brought forth in the heart, works of righteousness will spring forth in the world, and where righteousness springs not forth in the world, and the fruits of the knowledge of God, it shews that righteousness is not in the heart, and that God is not known.
Also concerning our Government, it is according to Christ, whom we own to be head amongst us, and no other head we have or do bow unto, and we are but members of his body, joined to him through the Spirit as head over us all, and the greatest of us is but a member of Christ, who is the head alone, and we have not another, neither can we be subject to any other Government but his, or to obey any Government but what is justly according to his, whose Government must be set up in the earth, and for it we wait, and labors, and travels, and counts nothing hard, but all things are easy to us for this prize which is before us, even the Government of Christ to be set up, and all Governments of men establish according to it, and this is our testimony which we give forth in words and practice, and if it be required can seal it with our blood.
And this is written for no other end, but that you may be certainly informed what we are, and what we hold, and what the Lord hath done, and what he is about to do in all the earth, who is arisen, and hath said, Ah! I will ease Me of my Adversaries.
Exactly ! Honestly , I think this belief in the immortal soul , which in effect , makes God a liar when He says : the soul that sinneth it shall die ,and the wages of sin is death , it comes from our fear of death . The thought that we can cease to exist is so terrifying to so many people and the idea that we all live on in some way is such a comfort to us , especially when we loose a loved one , that many people can't bear the thought that life ends . This is where faith comes in , the faith of Abraham when he would have willingly offered Isaac , even though he had been promised many blessings through Isaac , Abraham believed in the ressurection . So must we , we can't be ressurected from life to life , we are ressurected from death to life . Why this is so unpalatable to so many is beyond me . God is able to do this ! And He will ! If we die and then go to heaven or hell , how are we dead ? We are not ,we are living in heaven or living in hell . When do we die ? We must die in order to be ressurected . May God bless us all and keep us all close to Him , through Christ His Son .
The Tribulation: General overview of 3 sets of Judgments
There is a clear designation of 3 sets of judgments of 7 individual items in the Tribulation (Seal; Trumpet and Bowl).
Christ Himself opens the 7 SEALS of the book (unnamed). It would austensively contain the trumpet and bowl judgments; with a mysterious scroll eaten by John in Rev. 10:10 similar to the one in Ezekiel 3:3. I will try to study that at some point but it does say it is a mystery in general. We would probably be correct in stating the "birth pangs" of the Tribulation are going on with these seal judgments ( Matt. 24:8 also interestingly shown in Psalm 48:6:7.)
The next group of judgments are generally setting the stage for Antichrist to rise by judging one third parts of the earth; and sea and sun as well as killing one third of men ( Rev. 8:7-9; 12: Rev. 9:15). This is likely highly symbolic of the one third of the heavenly host falling with Satan and probably cast to earth at the time of Revelation 12:4; cross reference Daniel 8:10). This would show the destruction of those in heavenly places; the invisible spritual realm that has affected the course of men since the dawn of man (see Isaiah 24:21-22).
The last section completes the destruction of earth below as seen in Isaiah 24:22). This shows the gleaning of the grape harvest as it were; drawing men in for the final battle by supernatural means as seen in Revelation 19 and also Psalm 2.
As I have mentioned before there is no prayers of the saints appearing as incense in heaven; therefore no tarrying in the inner court with intercession as seen in Revelation 15:8. These verses and the responses of the wicked as compared to the sixth seal show the descent from fear to rebellion which the mark of the Beast seals their fate. There is nothing but contempt toward God; therefore it serves as a warning as to how men will react once IN hell (no desire to serve or worship their Creator).
The words of the LORD are pure words. Every word of God is pure. EVERY WORD IS PURE!
You say the rapture or Resurrection event is at or near the first seal. Can you please provide the verses that prove that to be true?
It seems that pre-tribulation rapture believers are reading things into Scripture that are not clearly written in Scripture. God is not the author of confusion.
The final revival you mentioned as being ( Rev 7:9) comes during great tribulation, ( Rev 7:14) shows us that.
All who believe in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life, when will this everlasting life start? At the return of Jesus Christ in the clouds for His true Believers ( 1 Thess 4:16-17)
( Jn 3:36) Tells us believers in the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
God's wrath is poured out on ALL non-believers who will be left on the earth, they are also called the children of disobedience in ( Eph 5:6) and ( Col 3:6)
Seeing the great tribulation and the wrath of God as the same time period only causes confusion. They are not the same!
( Mt 24:29-31) Tells us the Son of man comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, this event is the rapture. And it clearly happens after the tribulation.
I do not mean to offend Richard but the Truth matters as we are living the time of the Lastdays now.
The belief that we will be taken out before the tribulation period will not allow us to be prepared for the tough times of deception and of testing that are sure to come in the near future. That belief will also cause many to be deceived by the antichrist when he comes disguised as Jesus Christ sitting in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. ( 2 Thess 2:3-4) Many will fall away! There will be great deception during this time period ( 2 Cor 11:14)
The great day of the LORD is the return of Jesus Christ ( Zephaniah 1:14-18) That day is a day of wrath for non-believers.
I agree with you, and you are not alone. My understanding, the soul is a living being human or animal. We see this first in Genesis 1:20 the word creature is the Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. Genesis 2:7 By the breath of life Adam became a living soul, not given a soul.
The breath of life is our spirit given to us by God for when this breath leaves us, we are a dead soul, asleep. This breath, our spirit is what goes back to God, every man or woman regardless of faith, Ecclesiastes 12:7. In Scripture the dead are in the grave, not in heaven or hell and it is called sleep, Deuteronomy 31:16Job 17:13-16 and many more.
We have an earnest of the Spirit a downpayment, we are sealed, so, we are sealed until when? Until redemption, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22Ephesians 4:301 Corinthians 15:51-55, resurrection for those elects, chosen, and faithful we see in Rev 17:14 and Rev. 20:4-6. This is when we will be absent from this mortal body and be with the Lord.
The soul is who we are, and our conscience is the recorder of our life that is in the books that are open for the rest of the dead not in the first resurrection, Rev. 20:11-15, The ones written in the book of life will receive their glorified bodies and the rest will be cast into the lake of fire.
My understanding from my studies is the immortal soul and the meaning of death being a separation of the soul from the body does not come from scripture it comes from the Greek philosophers Socrates, 400 BC, Plato, and Aristotle. Later Augustine 354-430 AD adopted it, teaching death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.
Just a little, if the soul, that is who we are is immortal, that means death does not exist.
My earlier segment started discussion on the concept of the state of a soul determining the experience of the time in the Tribulation. Thus; the sufferings that the 144,000 go through (possibly allegorically stated in Matthew 25:36-40) would be still better than that of the unregenerate. They are protected from the judgments during much of the trumpet judgments because of the seal of God ( Rev. 7:3); although subject to imprisonment; famine and thirst. They will be given endurance whether living or dying (can't clearly tell) until they appear before God ( Rev. 7:16). The rest of the world; however by the sixth seal will be terrified ( Rev. 6:12-17). Contrast this with the state of the two prophets in Rev. 11:1-14. Death is swift and there is no fear of what comes thereafter for the saved; for the lost there is of course no peace ( Isaiah 57:21).
I am not attempting to minimize the appalling conditions which come by the unsealing of the seals by Jesus Himself for anyone; but am stating that our spiritual condition determines if we are in terror of God; or are a centerpiece of displaying His glory despite going through the fire at the time of Jacob's sorrow (see Jeremiah 30:7 and surrounding verses for that description).
Now; going back to the Rapture and Resurrection event at or near the first seal event. Matthew 25:1 COULD be thought of as representing those who are either not walking in the Spirit or unsaved. A key verse is at the end in verse 12. Does it mean Christ doesn't KNOW us intimately (know you not) mean the same thing as Matt. 7:21-23 where He NEVER knew us; or could it signify a church like the Ephesians who forget their first love ( Rev. 2:4)? Other interpretations exist-we will leave it there.
No matter who misses the Rapture and is left behind it seems clear is too late to be part of the Bride of Christ ( Eph. 5:27). Nonetheless there will be the final revival in that time ( Rev. 7:9).
I feel the same ! Why can I see this but others don't ! The Gospel is so simple and clear to me . I get frustrated and sometimes this leads me to say things in not the best way
:( . The more mystery people try to attach to it , the more suspicious I become . God doesn't contradict Himself . I shall try to look at those things you suggested but I only have internet on my phone , thanks , stay strong in the Truth .
Jema thank you for your comment. I honestly don't see how any Christian could not see this is the truth by these verses and the meaning of the word dividing. Jema, I recently found a site that shows truly amazing facts about the King James Bible being the Inspired, pure, preserved Word of God. It shows many, many things that only God could have done. This site clearly shows the KJB is God breathed, and infallible in so many different ways. If you, or anybody who reads this want to see this just google ("Truth is Christ") and watch some of his videos.
You will be amazed!
Anybody who seeks the Truth about God preserving His Word for this generation should check this site out. And anyone who trusts modern version bibles this site will show you why you should not put any trust in them, and why you should trust only the KJB as being the True Word of God.
Concerning what works are accepted of God, and what works are not accepted brought forth by the Creature.
Whatsoever work man is moved and led unto by the Spirit of God, and guided and ruled in the practice of, to speak or act whatsoever by the same Spirit (which moves and leads into all the works of righteousness, and not into any evil) this is acceptable in the sight of the Lord, and these works are well pleasing to him: where the Lord goes before, and is the leader in all things, and this man and his works who is led with the Spirit of the Father is justified and accepted of God, and not for the creatures sake, who respects not the person of any but for his own Name sake, because they are wrought in him through faith, and is moved unto, and guided in by his own Spirit, and they arise from Gods righteousness revealed in the creature, and not from the righteousness of the creature, for man being changed and replanted into the living Vine, and the root being good, every work which springiest forth from it is good also, and accepted of God, because the root is so: But whatsoever works are brought forth by any creature, though the same in appearance which are accepted of God from another, yet not being moved unto
and accepted of God, because the root is so: But whatsoever works are brought forth by any creature, though the same in appearance which are accepted of God from another, yet not being moved unto, nor guided in by the Spirit of the Father, but brought forth in the will and wisdom of the creature, which is from below, and acted in imitation from the Saints words; these works are not accepted and well pleasing unto God, but is offence unto him, and sin against him, even the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination unto him, and if a man come before the Lord with thousands of Rams, and ten thousand of Rivers of Oils, and if he give the fruit of his body for the sin of the soul, and cover the Altar with tears, and is not led with a measure of Gods Spirit, none of all these works are accepted; nor his preaching, praying baptism, nor breaking of bread, nor any other observances towards God whatsoever, are not good in his sight but evil, and to be contented, and the root from whence they spring; because man is in the enmity against him, and not changed out of the old root, nor in that state is not led with the holy Spirit of the Father; and the root being bad, the branches are evil, and none are accepted of God in any thing which they perform towards him, but such as are in Christ Jesus, the second Adam, and such are new creatures, so that it is not for the creatures sake that any work is accepted of, or offence against God, but only for his Name sake, and because of being guided, or not of being guided with the measure of Gods pure Spirit: Therefore is man and his works good and accepted; or evil and not regarded, but condemned of God.
I appreciate the way you connected the Spirit's parting of the waters in Genesis to the Spirits dividing between our soul and spirit by the Word of God ( Heb. 4:12)
Have a blessed evening of rest, Carleton.
I would have to say no to that. But if I may ask you, where do you believe the kingdom of God is? And are there bibles to read in Gods kingdom?
Those are some great questions and I also want to say amen to your entire post. I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it seems as though a majority of the things being said have nothing to do with brother Carlton's original post. There are a few responses from the beginning that were relevant to his post (yours being one), but it seems as though it went off topic pretty quickly. I wanted to chime in a few times but what you posted is perfect. I'm am interested in reading the response to your questions.
God bless!!!
proud shall be abased, and the poor shall be exalted; the high and lofty shall be brought down, and the meek and upright shall be set up; Truth shall reign as King, and deceit shall utterly be confounded; they that now suffer all manner of evil for the Name of Jesus, shall possess everlasting freedom, and the dominion shall be in their hands, and they that now cause the just to suffer, shall go into endless captivity, the seed of God shall spring forth and flourish, but the seed of evil-doers shall never be renowned: And betwixt these two seeds is an enmity put, and they can never be reconciled, each seed hath his fruit, the one is cursed and the other is blessed, and each seed is known by its fruit, and must receive from the Lord accordingly.
And this is the testimony of the servants of the Lord, and the witness which they give unto all the world of those things which we have handled, tasted, heard, seen and felt; blessed are all they that can receive it.
We are known to God in the Spirit, and one to another in his life, and are known in the world by the name of Quakers, cast upon us through the derision of the heathen.
But Quaking and trembling at the Word of the Lord; by the servants of the Lord, we do own, when the power of God reaches to the witness of God in the creature, which brings condemnation upon all high looks, and upon the lofty nature, which causes the earthly part to tremble, we do own and many of us do witness, the Quaking and Trembling which is by the operation of the Spirit of God, and the several operations by the one Spirit we own: which brings down proud flesh, whose honor God will lay in the dust, and bring it to everlasting contempt, and when this comes to pass, quaking shall not be a strange thing, nor the Name reproached as it is at this day by the proud spirits of men, who knows not the work of the Lord, nor the operation of his Spirit.
The Acts 2 passage (and also in Acts 13) are teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation in Paul's and Peter's preaching. In doing so they are referencing Psalm 16 and providing a commentary on this Psalm and it is very clear that The Holy One spoken of in these verses is Christ Himself, not David the man.
Christ endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, in full payment for the sins of His Elect and then rose from that death. It is Christ's soul, not David's soul that is in view.
I have always understood the Soul to be the Spirit essence of an individual, and therefore synonymous. So mankind has a physical BODY and a Spirit essence, his SOUL. But the Hebrews 4:12 verse is interesting. I have some thoughts about that verse but not prepared to share yet.
But I'm puzzled by your differentiating between the Soul and the Spirit of man. So are you saying that mankind has a Body, a Soul, and a Spirit? Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea a bit. Are you aware of any other verses that teach that three-way differentiation?
And how do you understand what it means to be Born Again? Does that occur in the Spirit or the Soul?
And what is the Spiritual Body in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44? There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL BODY; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
The passage above is Christ applying Salvation to one of His Elect before our very eyes. Causing that thief on the cross. to become Born Again, to receive his RESURRECTED SOUL.
And no, Christ was not lying to him.
So that thief died and was buried and his body has returned to the dust. But that thief was indeed with Christ in Heaven, in Paradise at the moment of his physical death. And will be returning with Christ in his Soul Existence to receive his glorified Spiritual Body at the Resurrection of the Last Day.
What you are suggesting is a complete denial of what it means to become "saved", to become Born Again.
Yes! "the SOUL that sineth it shall die". And apart from God's mercy in Salvation (in Christ having endured the Wrath of God, eternal death, the full penalty for the sins of those whom He saves) that is indeed the fate of all Mankind, Eternal Death.
Concerning mans state in the first Adam before conversion, and his state after conversion, and what conversion is.
Man's state in the first Adam in transgression, is a state of perfect enmity against God, and death reigns in every man, and he is possessed with blindness and ignorance, and unbelief, and is wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods Kingdom, or to act any thing for God acceptable to him; man in that state is wholly dead to God, and insensible of the presence, and power, and life of his Creator, for he is drove from God, and is not led by him, he hath no power to perform any good in the sight of God, but is possessed with evil, and led into all evil continually; he is free from righteousness, and free to all evil, being the servant of the Devil, and subject to him, and overcome of him every moment, and is led by him to transgresses against the Lord;
against the Lord; his heart is unclean, and out of it proceeds continually uncleanness in all manner of words, thoughts, and actions, which flows out of the corrupt fountain, which grieves and vexes the Lord and his Spirit, who is dishonored daily by man through his abuse of Gods creatures, who is a devourer and destroyer of them, and not a preserver as he ought to be, who abuses' them upon his lust, and not to the glory of the Lord; he loves the creature and worships the creature, and is gone a whoring after the creatures, and hath forgotten God that made him and all things, and hath lost his own dominion wherein he was set in his Creation, and his state in his transgression is cursed of God, and without the peace of God, it being in the enmity against him; and in all things he is wholly unprofitable to his Maker, and only profitable to himself and to the Devil, and this in short is the state of every man in transgression before conversion; but his state after conversion is a state more blessed, for man is changed, and renewed, and translated by the power of the Lord, through the working of the eternal Spirit through conversion, his mind is changed, and his heart is renewed, the old is done away, and a new heart is given, and all things are become new, even every word and work, and every intent and purpose of his mind, is converted into another end, and guided by another spirit than before his conversion; and man is again returned to God, into the sense and feeling of his Maker, and into covenant with him where he is blessed, and all things to him; for the reconciliation is made with God, and the evil is judged and condemned, and sin is taken away and blotted out, and not remembered: for man is become servant unto God, and only serves him in all things, and not himself or any other creature in any thing, for he hath received power to become sons to God, and hath received power over the Devil and his
You have presented a reasonable view on this topic, and in many ways, I think it is plausible. However, I am wondering if our body and soul dies and we no longer exist, then who did Jesus preach to in Hades between His death and resurrection? Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus in the transfiguration? If Jesus was actually there (since the disciples walked up the mountain with Him and the text say that Jesus' appearance was changed), then it seems that Moses and Elijah were actually there with Jesus as the disciples saw them and heard them speaking with Jesus.
These two occurrences make me think that our body dies and returns to dust, as that is what is said in Gen. 2:7 and 3:19, but it does not say anything about our soul ceasing to exist. Jesus said that we are to fear the One (God Almighty_ who can destroy both body and soul ( Matt. 10:28) which is the second death of unbelievers, but not believers. In this verse Jesus is speaking of two parts of our being, body is one, and the soul is the other, so it seems that the body can physically die, but not a regenerated soul.
Another Scripture that makes me think that the soul lives on in the presence of Jesus after death is in Hebrews 12:1 that there is a great cloud of witnesses in heaven who have gone before us in faith.
And lastly, Jesus said that believers have eternal life and will never die. ( John 11:26) Even though our body dies, our soul lives on because He is the resurrection and the life and those who believe in Him have life even though their body dies, our soul lives in Christ.
To me, the words of our Lord carry so much weight in regards to what we are to believe. He is the Truth and the Life and what He says will be will be.
But I truly understand your point of view, but it seems that Jesus differs from you and others here and in your church in regards to this topic.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, Jema. Just saying that what I know from Scripture differs from you
sight, and the new man is brought forth, and the creating in Christ Jesus unto good works is known, and the birth, which is heir of Gods Kingdom is witnessed, and unto this man is the Lord become an everlasting light and a sure hiding place, for he is not the servant of sin but of righteousness, nor an offence to God in any of his works, but for his names sake is well pleased with him; he is his teacher in all the ways of peace, he is his helmet, and his shield, and his hope of salvation, and his Shephard to feed him and preserve him at all times; though he may be tempted, yet he is not overcome, for God is his strength, though he may be tried, yet not forsaken of the Lord; though he may be cast into the fire it is not to consume him, for the Lord is with him; all things he receives as from the hand of God, & all creatures he enjoys in the Covenant with God, and peace is in all his ways, for it is the Lord that works in him both to will and to do of his own good pleasure; and this is the state of the new man brought forth in conversion, which is a turning of the creature from the power of Satan (which rules in every man before conversion), to the power of God which is the ruler of every man that is truly converted; and this is the truth as it is in Jesus, which I have received from God, he that can receive it let him, and if any have an ear let him hear what the Spirit saithe; this conversion of the creature is wrought by the Spirit of God through the Ministry sent of him, and even for this cause have we received the Ministry of God, through the Holy Ghost, that we might publish these things abroad, that all people may come to the knowledge of them, and may taste, and handle, and feel of the same Word of life in themselves, which will reveal the knowledge of these things to them that they may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
And now be it known to all the world, and to all people in it, that the Lord hath raised up a people and brought forth a seed, to bear witness of his Name, and of his dominion, and power in all the earth, and of these truths with many more, which are but one in Christ Jesus, hath God given us the perfect knowledge of, even wrought them in us, and revealed them to us by the eternal Spirit, and as that same Spirit doth, and shall move us, do we and shall we bear witness of these truths unto all people upon earth whatsoever, both by doctrine and conversation, holding forth the testimony unto others which we have received of God, that Christ may be exalted, and his Kingdom set up in the world, and in comparison of this, that we may serve God in our generation, by bearing witness of these things, which we have heard and seen; nothing of this world, our liberty, our life, nor any other thing whatsoever, is not dear unto us; yea, even for this cause, that the Name of the Lord may be testified of, do we give up our selves continually to suffer all manner of evil in words or works; and we love not our lives unto death, that truth and righteousness may be exalted, and this is the cause wherefore we pass through many dangers on every hand, and are in perils often, and we are not, nor cannot be afraid of the face of any man, even that the Lord alone may be exalted, whose Name, and Honor, and Truth is more dear unto us than any other thing; and for it have we forsaken all, and counted it as nothing in comparison of the knowledge of Christ, and his truth herein declared and witnessed to the whole world to whom it shall come, and the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do only commend my self and these truths to be witnessed.
And know ye assuredly that God, who is just and righteous in all his ways', it is he that sets the way of life and the way of death before every man, and he hath appeared in this generation, and he hath caused his voice to be heard in the earth, and he hath set the way of death and the way of life before you, and all that perish it is through unbelief; and because they do despise the way which God hath prepared, who hath prepared a way for life and salvation unto all people, that all may come to life and salvation, and may not perish, and he hath not shut out any creature before he was brought forth into the world, but giveth to every one that cometh into the world a day of visitation and a time of repentance and returning, that healing may be received from the Lord, who is the restorer of lost man, and there is not another; so that if man perish, it is of himself, and not of God, who hath so loved mankind, that he hath given his Son, his own wisdom and his power into the world, that all that doth receive him (Christ Jesus) may have everlasting life, and they that receive him not, they perish because of unbelief, whereby they are hardened for destruction, and unto such our Gospel, the Gospel of God is hid, whose eye is blinded by the god of this world, that they cannot see the things which be eternal, nor believe in him from whence life comes, and such are stumbling at Christ the foundation, and therefore shall be broken, and must not inherit the kingdom of God, and unto such, though they be wise in the kingdom of this world, are we become fools for Christ sake, and our testimony cannot be received by them, nor approved of them, even them that seek after a sign, and them that seek after wisdom, to such we are not known, nor can our testimony be acceptable to them which is not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in the demonstration of God Spirit, and in simplicity of truth, which is of great price with the Lord,
even above knowledge and all wisdom, which is of this world which comes to nothing, but the Lord will confound that and bring it to nothing, for the world by its wisdom doth not know God, neither can it receive the things of God, but is foolishness in the sight of God, and the wisdom of the world must be offended in him, and in the testimony which is given of him, and the Princes of this world, and the wise men must stumble and fall, the powers of the earth must be offended at him, that they may be confounded and brought to naught, all the heathen shall rage, and the people shall imagine a vain thing: but what of all this, the testimony of the Lord is true which he hath given us to bear of his Name, and of it we are not ashamed before the face of the whole world, and we are armed to suffer for it, and not only to subscribe to the truth of it with our hand, or to declare of it with our tongue and pen, but also if we be called to it, may seal it with our blood: Wherefore this is sent among you all, Rulers, Teachers and people in all the world; this is sent among: you as to give you the certain knowledge of what we hold and bear witness to, which is received of us from God, and born witnesses of to you by his Spirit, even those things with many others which we have not received from man but from God, are we purposed in the Lord to declare abroad, and he hath put it into our hearts to fulfill his will herein; for he hath spoken, who can but prophesy, and he hath given the word, and many are they that publish it in faithfulness against the kingdom of the man of sin, which hath long been exalted in the earth over the seed of God, which the Lord is now a gathering and establishing his Covenant with, an Jerusalem that hath long lain waste, shall be made the praise of the whole earth, and the Gentiles which hath polluted her shall be cast out, and the Saints shall rejoice over all their enemies.
And know you assuredly from us, who know the Lord, that God is doing great things in the earth, he is begun to work and his arm shall bring it to pass, he will overturn and overturn, till he come to reign whose right it is, who will change times and things, even that which cannot be believed, though a man declare it unto you, is the Lord bringing to pass; the eye shall blesse that sees it, and the heart shall praise that can understand, and behold the Lord comes quickly, and they are blessed that waits for him, whose reward is with him, and his glorious work is before him to be wrought by his own hand without the help of any other; who needs not the help of man, and yet that man that doth oppose him, shall be overthrown, confounded and destroyed, And again: all the Kings, Princes, Rulers, and People whatsoever, know ye assuredly that we are not enemies against, but friends unto all Civil Government, and to all just and righteous orders and decrees, and wholesome Law and Customs of any Common-wealth, and no way are we destructive to, or destroyers of the Peace, and welfare, and wholesome Laws (which is according to God) of any Nation whatsoever. But are preservers of the peace of all people, and waits in patience for the establishment of justice and true judgement, and that righteousness may spring forth, and the Government of all Nations may be according to the Law of God. Neither are we such who makes void the just Government of any Nation or City; neither are we such who through evil purposes, plotted, or conspired, or contrives evil in our hearts against any Governors or Government whatsoever; but wishes peace and truth, and the fear of the Lord unto all men and Nations, and desires not the overthrow or evil to any people, or their Government: but is subject to just Government every
where by obedience to it, and subject to evil Government by suffering in patience under it; so that righteousness alone we wait to see set up through the world, and for that cause suffereth patiently under our enemies, not seeking revenge against them, nor envying the persons of any; but pities our enemies, and desires their repentance rather than their destruction: Yet this we give all to know, that the Lord will be avenged on all them who hates the way of righteousness, and all that opposes the Lord and his way, and despises his truth which he hath revealed, they shall be confounded and broken to pieces, and shall confess to the Lord, and his way, and his truth in the day of their destruction.
Again, let all the earth know, that against all unrighteousness, injustice, oppression, whoredom, murder and drunkenness', and all sin whatsoever, we do declare and acknowledge our selves to be enemies against all sin, and they that commit it, and we cannot hide sin and iniquity in any, but gives our testimony against it, and against all that live in it whatsoever, without respect to men or places, and cannot flatter any man in his transgressions, but saithe, that lying, swearing, drunkenness, covetousness, injustice, dissimulation, hypocrisies, murder, and envy, lust of the flesh, pride and wantonness, and all the works of the flesh whatsoever, are contrary to God, and of the devil, and they that lives in them, and brings them forth, are the servants of the devil, and must not inherit that kingdom of God, who brings forth those works which grieves the Spirit of God, and vexes his righteous soul, and this is that Government only which is the Government of sin and death, which we declare our selves enemies to, which is of the devil and not of God; and this is that Government which we testifies against, and wars against by the sword of the Spirit of God, and by his power, and not
by the carnal weapons or subtle conspiracies', or violent insurrections; for this way, and by this means shall not the Government of Satan be overthrown, or the kingdom of Christ ever exalted.
Again, let all the world know, that we are not such as disannuls or makes void the Covenant and bond of Relations, or teach any so to do, or give any example by our practice to any subjects to be rebellious to their Governors, or children to be disobedient to their Parents, or that servants be undutiful to their Masters. But on the contrary, doth say and affirm it, that it is the duty of Subjects to be obedient and subject in the Lord to their Rulers and Governors, whether Kings, Dukes or others, who have rule over them; and also that Children should be obedient to their Parents; and Servants to be dutiful and subject to their Masters in the Lord in all things, and that Husbands and Wives live in all unity and peace in the Lord: Provided only, where Rulers, Parents, or Masters, or Husbands required of their Subjects, Children or Servants or any other whatsoever, requiring of their relations that which is unjust and contrary to God and his righteous law; in such a case we say, that Subjects, Children, Servants, and all other whatsoever are free, and we say, where man requires any thing contrary to God, and God requires another thing contrary to man, the obedience to God is rather to be chosen, and the obedience to all men is to be denied; and this is our judgement which is according to truth, and is the mind of God concerning subjection and obedience, and the duty of Relations one to another.
And lastly, know ye assuredly that we do not hold and maintain any thing by conversation or doctrine, but the very same truth in word and practice, as all our fore-Fathers did, but bears witness of the same salvation by the same Christ as they did, and are not setters forth of
strange gods, for no other God is worshipped by us than he, which Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the rest of the servants of the Lord in every generation worshipped, served and obeyed, neither are we such as doth maintain Heresies, Error, or Idolatry, or the worship of any strange god, though hereof we are accused falsely, yet against us cannot it be proved truly, and this we give the whole world to know, that no other end, or purpose, or design is in our hearts, but only to fulfil the will of God in all things as it is to us made manifest. Even this is the resolution of our hearts, and the full purpose of our minds. to give testimony through the world as we are moved, both by writing and declaring of these Truths which to us is known from the Lord, that truth and righteousness may come to reign, and this may we do as the Lord provides way for us, nor fearing the face of any man, nor being afraid of the threatening of high looks, and that we may finish the testimony given us of God, our life nor any other thing is dear unto us, and all ye people every where, for your sake is this written to come abroad amongst you, to give you warning and true information of the work of the Lord, and what he is about to do, that you may hear and understand, and may receive the knowledge of those things which belong to your peace, and may be saved with an eternal salvation, or otherwise through this are you wholly left without excuse if you perish: And unto this was I pressed in spirit for many days, that all the world may be satisfied, what we are, and what we hold, and what the purpose of the Lord is; and I whom God hath warned, do warn all people upon the face of the earth, that you prepare, prepare to meet the Lord, for his coming and his day is nigh at hand, and his judgements shall be revealed in the Earth, and all flesh shall tremble before him, and all the inhabitants of the world shall be confounded at his presence; The
Moreover and besides all this, let all the world know, that our conversation, life and practice is one and the same with what we hold forth in words, and that we give as large a testimony of God amongst us by pure conversation as doctrine, and doth deny them who gives testimony in words only, and answers not in their conversation, for that is hypocrisies, and our souls loath it, and it is abomination in the sight of the Lord, where he is profess in words, and not walked to in purity and righteousness of life, for righteousness being brought forth in the heart, works of righteousness will spring forth in the world, and where righteousness springs not forth in the world, and the fruits of the knowledge of God, it shews that righteousness is not in the heart, and that God is not known.
Also concerning our Government, it is according to Christ, whom we own to be head amongst us, and no other head we have or do bow unto, and we are but members of his body, joined to him through the Spirit as head over us all, and the greatest of us is but a member of Christ, who is the head alone, and we have not another, neither can we be subject to any other Government but his, or to obey any Government but what is justly according to his, whose Government must be set up in the earth, and for it we wait, and labors, and travels, and counts nothing hard, but all things are easy to us for this prize which is before us, even the Government of Christ to be set up, and all Governments of men establish according to it, and this is our testimony which we give forth in words and practice, and if it be required can seal it with our blood.
And this is written for no other end, but that you may be certainly informed what we are, and what we hold, and what the Lord hath done, and what he is about to do in all the earth, who is arisen, and hath said, Ah! I will ease Me of my Adversaries.
Finished
There is a clear designation of 3 sets of judgments of 7 individual items in the Tribulation (Seal; Trumpet and Bowl).
Christ Himself opens the 7 SEALS of the book (unnamed). It would austensively contain the trumpet and bowl judgments; with a mysterious scroll eaten by John in Rev. 10:10 similar to the one in Ezekiel 3:3. I will try to study that at some point but it does say it is a mystery in general. We would probably be correct in stating the "birth pangs" of the Tribulation are going on with these seal judgments ( Matt. 24:8 also interestingly shown in Psalm 48:6:7.)
The next group of judgments are generally setting the stage for Antichrist to rise by judging one third parts of the earth; and sea and sun as well as killing one third of men ( Rev. 8:7-9; 12: Rev. 9:15). This is likely highly symbolic of the one third of the heavenly host falling with Satan and probably cast to earth at the time of Revelation 12:4; cross reference Daniel 8:10). This would show the destruction of those in heavenly places; the invisible spritual realm that has affected the course of men since the dawn of man (see Isaiah 24:21-22).
The last section completes the destruction of earth below as seen in Isaiah 24:22). This shows the gleaning of the grape harvest as it were; drawing men in for the final battle by supernatural means as seen in Revelation 19 and also Psalm 2.
As I have mentioned before there is no prayers of the saints appearing as incense in heaven; therefore no tarrying in the inner court with intercession as seen in Revelation 15:8. These verses and the responses of the wicked as compared to the sixth seal show the descent from fear to rebellion which the mark of the Beast seals their fate. There is nothing but contempt toward God; therefore it serves as a warning as to how men will react once IN hell (no desire to serve or worship their Creator).
Compare this to the VICTORY of the saints.
The words of the LORD are pure words. Every word of God is pure. EVERY WORD IS PURE!
You say the rapture or Resurrection event is at or near the first seal. Can you please provide the verses that prove that to be true?
It seems that pre-tribulation rapture believers are reading things into Scripture that are not clearly written in Scripture. God is not the author of confusion.
The final revival you mentioned as being ( Rev 7:9) comes during great tribulation, ( Rev 7:14) shows us that.
All who believe in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life, when will this everlasting life start? At the return of Jesus Christ in the clouds for His true Believers ( 1 Thess 4:16-17)
( Jn 3:36) Tells us believers in the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
God's wrath is poured out on ALL non-believers who will be left on the earth, they are also called the children of disobedience in ( Eph 5:6) and ( Col 3:6)
Seeing the great tribulation and the wrath of God as the same time period only causes confusion. They are not the same!
( Mt 24:29-31) Tells us the Son of man comes in the clouds to gather together His elect, this event is the rapture. And it clearly happens after the tribulation.
I do not mean to offend Richard but the Truth matters as we are living the time of the Lastdays now.
The belief that we will be taken out before the tribulation period will not allow us to be prepared for the tough times of deception and of testing that are sure to come in the near future. That belief will also cause many to be deceived by the antichrist when he comes disguised as Jesus Christ sitting in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. ( 2 Thess 2:3-4) Many will fall away! There will be great deception during this time period ( 2 Cor 11:14)
The great day of the LORD is the return of Jesus Christ ( Zephaniah 1:14-18) That day is a day of wrath for non-believers.
Blessings to you.
I agree with you, and you are not alone. My understanding, the soul is a living being human or animal. We see this first in Genesis 1:20 the word creature is the Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, and emotion. Genesis 2:7 By the breath of life Adam became a living soul, not given a soul.
The breath of life is our spirit given to us by God for when this breath leaves us, we are a dead soul, asleep. This breath, our spirit is what goes back to God, every man or woman regardless of faith, Ecclesiastes 12:7. In Scripture the dead are in the grave, not in heaven or hell and it is called sleep, Deuteronomy 31:16 Job 17:13-16 and many more.
We have an earnest of the Spirit a downpayment, we are sealed, so, we are sealed until when? Until redemption, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Ephesians 4:30 1 Corinthians 15:51-55, resurrection for those elects, chosen, and faithful we see in Rev 17:14 and Rev. 20:4-6. This is when we will be absent from this mortal body and be with the Lord.
The soul is who we are, and our conscience is the recorder of our life that is in the books that are open for the rest of the dead not in the first resurrection, Rev. 20:11-15, The ones written in the book of life will receive their glorified bodies and the rest will be cast into the lake of fire.
My understanding from my studies is the immortal soul and the meaning of death being a separation of the soul from the body does not come from scripture it comes from the Greek philosophers Socrates, 400 BC, Plato, and Aristotle. Later Augustine 354-430 AD adopted it, teaching death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.
Just a little, if the soul, that is who we are is immortal, that means death does not exist.
God bless,
RLW
My earlier segment started discussion on the concept of the state of a soul determining the experience of the time in the Tribulation. Thus; the sufferings that the 144,000 go through (possibly allegorically stated in Matthew 25:36-40) would be still better than that of the unregenerate. They are protected from the judgments during much of the trumpet judgments because of the seal of God ( Rev. 7:3); although subject to imprisonment; famine and thirst. They will be given endurance whether living or dying (can't clearly tell) until they appear before God ( Rev. 7:16). The rest of the world; however by the sixth seal will be terrified ( Rev. 6:12-17). Contrast this with the state of the two prophets in Rev. 11:1-14. Death is swift and there is no fear of what comes thereafter for the saved; for the lost there is of course no peace ( Isaiah 57:21).
I am not attempting to minimize the appalling conditions which come by the unsealing of the seals by Jesus Himself for anyone; but am stating that our spiritual condition determines if we are in terror of God; or are a centerpiece of displaying His glory despite going through the fire at the time of Jacob's sorrow (see Jeremiah 30:7 and surrounding verses for that description).
Now; going back to the Rapture and Resurrection event at or near the first seal event. Matthew 25:1 COULD be thought of as representing those who are either not walking in the Spirit or unsaved. A key verse is at the end in verse 12. Does it mean Christ doesn't KNOW us intimately (know you not) mean the same thing as Matt. 7:21-23 where He NEVER knew us; or could it signify a church like the Ephesians who forget their first love ( Rev. 2:4)? Other interpretations exist-we will leave it there.
No matter who misses the Rapture and is left behind it seems clear is too late to be part of the Bride of Christ ( Eph. 5:27). Nonetheless there will be the final revival in that time ( Rev. 7:9).
:( . The more mystery people try to attach to it , the more suspicious I become . God doesn't contradict Himself . I shall try to look at those things you suggested but I only have internet on my phone , thanks , stay strong in the Truth .
You will be amazed!
Anybody who seeks the Truth about God preserving His Word for this generation should check this site out. And anyone who trusts modern version bibles this site will show you why you should not put any trust in them, and why you should trust only the KJB as being the True Word of God.
God Bless you Jema, and all who seek His Truth.
18 A Standard lifted up
Concerning what works are accepted of God, and what works are not accepted brought forth by the Creature.
Whatsoever work man is moved and led unto by the Spirit of God, and guided and ruled in the practice of, to speak or act whatsoever by the same Spirit (which moves and leads into all the works of righteousness, and not into any evil) this is acceptable in the sight of the Lord, and these works are well pleasing to him: where the Lord goes before, and is the leader in all things, and this man and his works who is led with the Spirit of the Father is justified and accepted of God, and not for the creatures sake, who respects not the person of any but for his own Name sake, because they are wrought in him through faith, and is moved unto, and guided in by his own Spirit, and they arise from Gods righteousness revealed in the creature, and not from the righteousness of the creature, for man being changed and replanted into the living Vine, and the root being good, every work which springiest forth from it is good also, and accepted of God, because the root is so: But whatsoever works are brought forth by any creature, though the same in appearance which are accepted of God from another, yet not being moved unto
and accepted of God, because the root is so: But whatsoever works are brought forth by any creature, though the same in appearance which are accepted of God from another, yet not being moved unto, nor guided in by the Spirit of the Father, but brought forth in the will and wisdom of the creature, which is from below, and acted in imitation from the Saints words; these works are not accepted and well pleasing unto God, but is offence unto him, and sin against him, even the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination unto him, and if a man come before the Lord with thousands of Rams, and ten thousand of Rivers of Oils, and if he give the fruit of his body for the sin of the soul, and cover the Altar with tears, and is not led with a measure of Gods Spirit, none of all these works are accepted; nor his preaching, praying baptism, nor breaking of bread, nor any other observances towards God whatsoever, are not good in his sight but evil, and to be contented, and the root from whence they spring; because man is in the enmity against him, and not changed out of the old root, nor in that state is not led with the holy Spirit of the Father; and the root being bad, the branches are evil, and none are accepted of God in any thing which they perform towards him, but such as are in Christ Jesus, the second Adam, and such are new creatures, so that it is not for the creatures sake that any work is accepted of, or offence against God, but only for his Name sake, and because of being guided, or not of being guided with the measure of Gods pure Spirit: Therefore is man and his works good and accepted; or evil and not regarded, but condemned of God.