No worries. I understand that we get busy and cannot respond quickly. Thank you for sharing your opinion on this topic. We do have a different view on this and that's okay. I spent some time reading through the accounts given in Matthew Chapter 26, Mark Chapter 14, and Luke Chapter 22. There are few things I find interesting that I would like to share.
In Mark 14:22-26, we see communion being instituted. The last supper was also the last Passover meal. Jewish people, ever since Moses, when they celebrated the Passover meal together, they had no idea what each of the elements meant. They knew some of them like the bitter herbs. They had three pieces of matzo bread. They broke the second piece and wrapped it a napkin. Interesting!
They had no idea why. But we know what that represents. Also, the matzo bread, when it was cooked in the oven, it had to have stripes on it. And it had to have holes in it. You probably can already imagine what all this represents.
But the Jews believed that when Messiah comes, He was going to explain to them what this all means because they were just doing it. But they didn't know what it all meant.
At the last Passover meal (Last Supper), Jesus took this bread that had to have stripes on it and said this is my body. The stripes on the bread would represent the stripes He would later receive from being whipped. He then took the cup and gave it to them to drink and said this is my blood which is shed for many. When He said this, His blood had not yet been shed so this could only represent the blood that would later be shed from the hole in His body when He was pierced. So, that explains the stripes on the Passover bread and the holes in the bread. The Jews had no idea!
Day 28 January 28, 2025 Matthew 18:19-20 KJV Unity in Prayer West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 18:19 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" When done and praying is showing God as holy to believe. Principle-Holy to all religions. Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God, to have faith, hope, love is unity"
Confirmation to all the world. Confirmation is of the Gospel performing of miracle. Trusting in Jesus intercession asking in prayer. A guaranteed result I have received being Christian is utterance of the spirtual man.Accord with Jesus Christ God the Father Romans 6:23 KJV." Quoted on prayers being done must be of God expedient, earnest, faithful, preserving."
Expedient definition- serves to promote or advance any means which may be employed to accomplish an end.
Matthew 18:20 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Associated scripture Hebrews 10:25 KJV. Jesus in the midst is Psalm 19:4 KJV to be pleasing in his sight 1 John 3:22 KJV. Jesus Christ is omnipresence amd omniscience to all the world. Quoted on blessing on united, congregational prayer. Jesus want you to have the gift of the Holy Ghost-cordial and sincere. Receiving the blessings -When speaking to have the presence of Christ is true and mighty Psalms 21:6 KJV Communion with his church as real. Speaking in advancement of position Psalms 16:11 KJV
Quoted: Measure is in believing the holy bible-Jesus Christ is life to follow. "
Indeed brother S. Spencer. Acquiring what we learn from people's (past & present) beliefs & then speedily finding support of it (or not) in God's Word, can only lead us into a proper understanding of the Truth, application in our lives & teaching it to others. Blessings to you too, both in your spiritual & secular labors.
Now, there's a name that I haven't heard of for a long time Zamar2Zion: Finis Dake. I remember when assisting at a previous Fellowship's bookshop (in my younger, in-between jobs days), we certainly ordered & sold many copies of (his) Dake's Bible - mainly to pastors/elders who used his many helpful notes. But I can see why his Bible wouldn't be popular to many Christians, just as Schofield & others are rejected. And I don't know how well the Dake's Bible sells in these days. However, I shall take time to follow through on those video suggestions you shared. GBU.
Hello Derek. I respond here as neither a whole-hearted supported of either Calvin's or Arminius' teachings (I see truth & value in both), but just giving here a simple reply. I would suggest you do a study on Calvin's teachings, as briefly summarized in the acronym of TULIP (search: Calvin - TULIP), to familiarize yourself with his actual beliefs rather than the beliefs & practises of the Church (you attended). As you know, there are many differences within the Churches even of the same 'genre', in their beliefs & practises, however minor; so what you have observed in that Church Fellowship may not be identical to others holding a reformed position. So, I won't add to it, unless you wish to continue, especially after you've learned further about those two great men, their beliefs, & the practises of the Fellowships that lean towards one or the other of those men's teachings. And you may want to look at hyper-Calvinism as well, as I suspect the Church you went to & by what you shared, they might be tending towards that position.
Thank you brother Giannis for taking the trouble to explain further in this matter. I really have to admit, that I still struggle to grapple with yours (& your Fellowship's) understanding on the Bread & Wine. I know you don't believe that those 'things' physically change in constitution or appearance, but you state that "they are Body and Blood by faith".
The only way I can understand that statement is that 'by expressing faith, those 'things' (represent?) the Body and Blood of our Lord'. I'm sorry, I can't see it another way - maybe my limited comprehension. The Bread & Wine are either materially (even mystically) so, or not so changed (even with faith expressed) - I can't fathom as to how an understanding can be somewhere in-between. I would however, agree to: that 'by faith, those things represent (i.e. emblematic) of the Body & Blood'; but I'm sorry, my limited mind can't grasp an in-between possibility. Anyway, thanks again - we may not want to pursue this any longer. Blessings.
Hi Ltrchlasl. Thank you for your question. I would refer you to Luke 22:19 and 1 Corinthians 11:24,25 (you can hover your mouse pointer over these references to read them fully, or touch them on your phone to read them). So yes, the Lord's Supper (Communion) is observed purely in remembrance of what our Lord Jesus did for us by coming to Earth, laying down His Life in our stead, & rising up from the dead & entering Heaven to be with His Father.
And if you have been following this thread, discussion has come up as to whether the bread & wine we see on the Communion Table only remain as physically bread & wine, or do they, in a mystical way, transform into the actual Body & Blood of our Lord. My understanding of the Scriptures associated with this solemn, yet joyful ceremony, is that what we see on the table before us, do not change at all in their material composition, hence only remain as emblems (or, symbols, tokens) of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. Please read these Gospel & the apostle Paul's accounts more fully to understand for yourself, with the Spirit's Help, to what Jesus intended for His disciples and us to understand from this act of fellowship with Him.
Hello so are you saying that we drink the wine and eat the bread for remembernce of Jesus sacrafice? Not that we see it as hes body or blood? not sure Im confused
Understand - perceive the intended meaning of (words, a language, or a speaker).
"he didn't understand a word It said"
We are to interpret the Bible, or understand what it says. Not to come up with our interpretation, we are not to change one word of the Bible. We are to read it and understand it. You'll need a dictionary Oxford when there an English word you dont understand. The word lost is used in the New Testament, in one case its unable to find one's way; not knowing one's whereabouts.' and there other is ' 'perish, destroy'' .
World, all, end, made, lost are words that are in the Bible and use different definitions. We can't understand it all if we don't know the definitions are being used. KJV is not hard, Thou is You, Thus is this.
No man hath seen GOD.
seen, not to perceive with the eyes but seen discern or deduce mentally after reflection or from information; understand.
'How GOD fully works remains to be seen'
Old English son, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch zien and German sehen, perhaps from an Indo-European root shared by Latin sequi 'follow'.
1 John 5:7
For there are three (Literal:1,2,3 of them. Jesus prayed to God Our Father who art in Heaven on earth) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (figurative truth: One in unity by agreeing, One in the fact they were there at the beginning, They are God Gen 1:1 Elohim GODS, Eternal)
I encourage you all to listen to Finis Dake teaching. Sometimes we need to go back to basics, I struggled with the WORD until I realized English was my troubles.
type on youtube , last one is a video (3)
2) Simplicity of the Bible - Finis J. Dake (GPFM Lesson 1,2,3))
3) Understanding Expressions, definitions and terms of the Bible Ages - Finis J. Dake
Definite proof that the rapture is before the antichrist and tribulation. (Finis J. Dake)
3) Seven year tribulation period, the Second Coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon.
I pray you give it a listen as it is a audio recording. God Bless you. Dispel that notion that its hard to understand and a takes years of reading when God gave us His word in human language we can understand. Today English as God commissioned. Its is simple for us all agree on.
So there was no way that one couldn't underastand what was going on and ate them as common bread and wine. In verse 18 it says "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." and in verse 21 "For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken." and in v 22 "...church of God, and shame them that have not?". So those were few of their sins, like getting drunk during the meal, not thinking of those who were poor or having divisions. Those were their sins and not eating the bread and wine as common bread and wine. Well this is my opinion. Blessings to both brothers in Christ.
Sorry for my delayed answer. I was a bit beasy the last couple of days.
Chris. The difference between transubstantiation and my church's belief is that we don't believe that the bread and wine are changed in substance and become Body and Blood, but they are Body and Bood by faith. We believe that they become so not because there is any change in substance, they are still bread and wine, but by faith we accept them as Body and Blood of Christ. Accepting the belief of them being emblems finds a serious obstacle which is why do we get punished if we eat them unworthily? They are emblems. So what is the sin? Sins are very specific. What is the sin when I eat something that is a symbol of something else? It says "... unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" and "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.". Not descerning the Lord's Body. In verse 32 it says, "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.". Why are we judged? Because we sin and the Lord wants to make us repend and clean ourselves and "not be condemned with the world". So there is a sin/sins similar to those that the unbelievers do. And this can not be because we eat symbols but because we do specific sins like the world. Verse 28 says "But let a man examine himself". Examine about what? About eating an emblem? So what is the sin when I eat it as bread and not as a symbol of flesh? This can not be a sin. It is nothing really. And assuming it is a sin definitely it can not draw the damnation of death.
Jesse. Let's see how the first christians participated in the Communion. They were sitting in tables eating like Jesus and the apostles did in the Last Supper and during or at the end of that meal the pastor stood, prayed and blessed the bread and wine into Body and Blood of Jesus. Then they deacons offered them to the believers.
Accidentally went to a church that believes in Calvinism that doesn't believe in either freewill or that Jesus died for everyone. Part of their justification of being right involved demonizing other Christians and assuming that others trying to follow God are "trying to be like God". They also said all effort is works that means someone must be trying to save themselves to bypass God. They seemed unconcerned about human effort to drive to church and eat lunch after or even do things to help homeless. My question is how do they decide what human activities is bad and why do they seem more concerned with obeying God too much than not obeying God. If everything is already predetermined with no freewill then why do they meet for church at all and do they see any value in following God or obeying the Bible, which could possibly be considered works to them? Maybe someone more experience in this faith can explain, bless you.
Thanks for your addition to this topic of discussion. If you have ever been to a Catholic Mass your will note in the missal (order of service) Communion is called the "Sacrifice " of the Mass and those I know who are Catholic do see it as that of a non-bloody sacrifice.
Those like the RCC, Lutheran, and others who believe that Jesus is present in the bread and wine and that we do partake of his body and blood believe so because they take literally what Jesus said in the Last Supper Institution of the new covenant meal and in John 6. Others who believe in an actual spiritual presence of Jesus in the bread and wine see His words as more spiritually actualized to those who partake. And those who believe that the bread and wine are a memorial meal see His words as being symbolic. This last way of seeing communion as a memorial is reflective of more recent Protestant teaching after the lives of Luther, Calvin, and Anglicanism.
Dear lady , it is clear to me that you are in no position to give your son the help that he needs , you need outside help . Obviously there will be many prayers made for you and your son but remember that God often accomplishes His purpose through us human beings .
You son needs an advocate . Someone who he trusts and who respects him , to speak out on his behalf . Is there not another family member who is able to fulfill this role ? Or a close friend of his ? If not , try looking on the internet for charitable organisations that specialise in intervening on behalf of disabled people . They are out there I know . You are not in a physical position to help him other than to make some phone calls to friends or relatives or , search on the internet for disabled advocacy services . It's obvious your soon needs someone with a determined voice to help him . You can find that person or organisation . Pray to God , through Christ , that He might send you a helper , pray every day for this and search every day . Be patient and trust in God's love and mercy . Let us know how things go if you can .
Thank you for your reply . Based on those scriptures you referenced you have convinced me of the great privilege we have been given and how seriously we should take it . Thank you .
Thank you Chris and yes you are correct , the crux of the matter is that the Lord knows who is his . I know of brothers and sisters in foreign parts who don't live near anyone that they could break bread with so are in isolation in their faith . God sees them I know . Thanks again .
Day 27 January 27,2025 Matthew 5:14-16 KJV Being a Light West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 5:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is life on earth how to live John 8:12 KJV
God's word la has to be done to all the world.
Matthew 5:15 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To believe in Jesus Christ laws, rule amd rules to get what you want. To believe when you die you will go to heaven and not he'll. 1 Corinthians 15:34 KJV Romans 10:10 KJV
Jesus Christ is power and effectual. Example House of Prayer Luke 19:46 KJV. Candles lighted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe and God has done for me Ephesians 6:15 KJV giving me peace.
Offered your heart to God. God wants you to be married.
Words you say and believe to actions to be and get reality.
Ways you can be and get what you want-reality. are listen to God's voice amd word to obey, follow, "do it" in speaking , actions, attention of communications.
Example liked by God and preferred by Christian Church named titled disciple.
Disciple definition-Showing the holy bible as life.
Matthew 5:16 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Light shine can also be the revelation of Jesus Christ given to you Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God. To have faith, hope, love.". 1 John 1:2 KJV
I have working history of evangelism street outreach , open Leading Pulpit Prayer hour at Christian Church, Open Teaching Sunday School and Mid-Week bible study service showing Jesus Christ Is God Romans 10:9-10 KJV to all religions-Principle holy.
Thank you GiGi for the explanation of the beliefs of others in this respect of the Communion Table. When I referred particularly to the RC Church, I ensured that I learned their beliefs from their own website. And not to say, that there could even be small differences within that Church itself, but on the whole, the following in their Catechism summarizes this teaching:
"In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by . . . genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration. (CCC, 1378)". Other comments on this also show that in their Mass, they do not sacrifice the Lord again, but that simply the elements, through consecration are changed, becoming the Lord's Body.
Then we have John Calvin's word on this: "While there is no change of substance in the sacrament, Jesus Christ is nonetheless present in a real way by means of his Holy Spirit. In observing the Lord's Supper, Christ does not come down to the faithful in his body and blood; instead, the faithful are lifted up to him in spirit by the Holy Spirit."
And then we have the more independent Churches, who generally believe that the emblems remain the same, but taken in a solemn, meaningful manner, in remembrance of all that Jesus has done for them at the Cross & in His resurrection and ascension. So yes, we do have greatly divergent beliefs, as we do on many other doctrines, and of course this is nothing new, as since the days of the apostles, there have been teachers (both gnostic & others) ready to sway believers towards their form of doctrine. It should be little wonder that the Church is so diverse, some in great error, given the passing of two millenia. But the Lord knows who are His; we must but teach the Word & then allow the Spirit to make it real & relevant to us. Thank you again dear GiGi.
Other sects teach that communion is a memorial of Jesus' sacrifice for us, reminding us of His death and resurrection and the new covenant He made symbolically at the Last Supper and in reality on the cross where He shed His blood and gave His body for salvation. These teach that the bread and wine represent Jesus' body and blood, and symbolize His sacrifice as He explained the new covenant at the Last Supper.
I think it is a good thing for each believer to read the Scripture account of the communion of the Last Supper where Jesus instituted this new covenant, the John 6 section, and the various teachings of different sects and their explanation of why they believe the way they do so that one can prayerfully by faith embrace what they understand and can believe.
Communion is a holy action regardless of what position one sides with and that we should certainly partake of it with reverence, peace, and faith that Jesus has given Himself for us in His death and resurrection and we are partakers of His promise and Presence as believers. Those who hold to a "real Presence" in the taking in of the bread and wine or those who hold that the practice is a memorial of remembrance of Jesus' work on the behalf of every believer can find Scriptural support for the view they hold. Therefore, I do not think we should judge one another on this matter but instead practice and encourage others to do what our Lord and Paul instructed the church to do in regards to the Lord's Supper, being sure to be at peace with other believers, to not be drunk or gluttonous when partaking of it, or to not leave food for others in the body when the meal occurs, and then, when communion is served being sure to discern the Lord's body in the way they understand this to mean from Scripture. The Scriptures do say that it is possible to partake of communion sinfully, and we should desire to partake properly.
We should honor Christ every time we partake communion together as believers.
Hello Chris, this conversation on what taking of the elements of communion truly is has been meant to mean different things to different sects of the church body. You are correct that the RCC teaches that during the Mass, Jesus is sacrificed again for us in giving us His true body and blood in partaking of the bread and wine. They say that, though we do not see the elements actually change into flesh and blood, they truly do change to become Christ's body and blood shed for the remission of sins-called transubstantiation. They still remain bread and wine but a miracle is done by God to have these elements also be truly the body and blood, though unseen.
The Lutherans believe in consubstantiation-that Jesus is present in the bread and wine upon consecration with the words of institution. They say that Jesus is "in, with, and under", the bread and wine but do not teach that Christ is sacrificed each time communion is done in a service. They teach that Jesus is truly present in the elements, but also teach that the how of it is truly a mystery and we believe it by faith that we do receive Him at communion for strengthening our faith, healing our body, and remitting our sins that we confess during the service.
I believe the Anglican church also teach that by faith a believer does partake of the body and blood of Christ in a real but spiritual sense: The simplest phrase used to express this view is the phrase "real presence." This is an affirmation that what is happening during communion is real, and objective, and God assures it. It affirms also that God is present, and that we are to believe and trust that he is. Anglicans teach that sacraments are "effectual signs of grace and that "real presence" is Christ's spiritual presence that is experienced in the hearts of believers when the grace of the sacrament is received by faith. Since his bodily Ascension, Jesus remains spiritually present everywhere but he remains corporeally in heaven until He returns again.
Apostle Paul was giving instructions to the Corinthians that are saved how to eat and drink in the Lord's supper . The question is ," is the bread and wine really Jesus Christ body ?" I would say spiritual yes for a sample.
1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
We need to make sure before we take the Lord supper , we are right with God . It's disrespectful to have the Lord's supper with sin in our lives . Repentance is the key word .
1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
If we don't repent , the Lord will correct us like a father to a child.
1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
I certainly take the Lord's supper very seriously. It's always good to remember Jesus Christ resurrection from the dead.
I need to correct an error I made in my reply to you. Where I wrote "I do come to that conclusion," I meant to write I (do not) come to that conclusion.
Indeed brother Richard, I agree with what you have shared with us here. And just to pick up on one pertinent point you shared in relation to the Communion, "whether it is Baptism; Communion or "fellowship of the saints" when two or more are gathered together He is present".
My understanding of Matthew 18:20 hinges on the fact that post-resurrection & ascension, Christ is now seated at the right Hand of the Father ( Mark 16:19; Acts 2:23; Romans 8:34; and many other refs). So, what Jesus spoke of at that time to His disciples, would certainly mean that His Presence amongst them after He left for Heaven, would be by His Spirit Whom they would receive. As far as I'm aware, the physical Jesus will not be seen again until the translation of the saints, or by those with variant beliefs, at His Coming for war, judgement & rule on the Earth.
Now, whether those who subscribe to transubstantiation would apply Matthew 18:20 to bolster their belief or not, I can't tell; though it seems that they could do so, as the verse could support that the physical presence of Jesus could be found in the elements at the 'Eucharist'. But is that what Jesus intended His followers to believe & practise? Whether in corporate prayer, at the Lord's Table, or even in the Eucharist (as practised by some), that His Presence in Body (& Blood) is there (mystically or otherwise), or whether it is His Spirit Who ministers to us in those seasons & right through the course of a believer's life? That if we 'eat or drink unworthily bringing on damnation', the Spirit of Christ is disgraced & abhorred by such hypocritical, sinful participation - which translates of course, as directly aimed at Jesus & His Father.
We are commanded to "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God", for if we do, then the Godhead is dishonored & shamed. It is the Spirit Who broods over our worship, teaching, & communion participation testing or convicting our hearts; and this is how I see the Presence of Christ at the Lord's Table.
Further thoughts about the body and blood of Christ.
Romans 1:20 and no doubt scores of other scriptures speak of Christ's eternal Godhead. It was known due to the council of the Godhead beyond our understanding ( Deut. 29:29) that God the Son was to come to die to atone for the sins of men; and was first found in Genesis 3:16 (or thereabouts) to finally crush Satan's seed. It is impossible for Christ's sufferings to occur outside His appointed time when He came in the form of a man and had limitations brought about so that He could be overcome through death as the rest of us are to make the sacrifice legitimate. Clearly even glorified men are no longer subject to death; certainly more so for the Son of God! No one can say that in His eternal state now seated at the right hand of God the Father that He is still suffering. This is seen also in the Transfiguration; God indeed is beyond time and perhaps this can be seen as looking forward or beyond the limitations of time and space during His earthly ministry. All in all; of course Christ was involved with the Creation and surely is not subject to repeatedly suffering especially since the sacrifice is once for all ( Heb. 10:10). Satan is defeated and cannot cause Him any more grief; neither can the enemy affect those who are walking in the Spirit now; albeit they can be a thorn in the flesh and if we allow sin to give an opening he loves to torment our souls.
In general many seem to obsess with the fact that God is beyond time and make the overriding assumption that heaven is totally like that today. God Himself chose to allow the rules of time and space so clearly He desires to have times and seasons; and that will be apparent during a literal 1000 year Millennial reign on earth and there is no reason to expect it will be totally obliterated once the new Heaven and earth is created. Finally whatever the Spirit does because of His sacrifice it is available toall; a human Priest isn't in charge.
John 6:63 says that the flesh profits nothing; the Spirit is where the focus should be. My point with communion is that the Spirit although invisible works as a "two edged sword" ( Hebrews 4:12). Therefore the importance is just as great as if something was physically changed into the body and blood of Christ. We may look at this like when Jesus forgave sins and asked which was harder; healing or forgiving sins? Clearly the latter because in the material world healing is somewhat a natural phenomenon; whereas there is no method for forgiveness of sins without the perfect Atonement; certainly not our own "good works" which are as Isaiah indicates "filthy rags" in His sight.
I argue that whether it is Baptism; Communion or "fellowship of the saints" when two or more are gathered together He is present; and of course as Revelation 1 and 2 seem to show sometimes it is only a few individuals who are walking correctly; and of course if we can't reach the lukewarm through admonition we should flee the lukewarm church that He will "spue out of His mouth as with the Laodiceans.
We do well to study what it means to be taking communion "unworthily". Certainly unconfessed sin comes to mind but it may be easy to overlook forgiving one's brother first as Jesus said we should do before going to the altar. Certainly this affects communion as well as we are part of the Body of Christ and any schisms hurt us and others as well.
We could also look at what made Christ's body and blood unique. He was born based on the Spirit basically being the "seed" that allowed for a virgin birth. If we consider what makes Him different we can look at a perfect "DNA" and such; but the spiritual perfection vs imperfection is beyond just the symptom of physical decay and death; it is being sinless vs sinful; inherited sin can't be explained readily. Also he bears the scars; certainly not the suffering eternally. This is what makes the "stigmata" of occultic origin only Christ atones.
(Part 1):
No worries. I understand that we get busy and cannot respond quickly. Thank you for sharing your opinion on this topic. We do have a different view on this and that's okay. I spent some time reading through the accounts given in Matthew Chapter 26, Mark Chapter 14, and Luke Chapter 22. There are few things I find interesting that I would like to share.
In Mark 14:22-26, we see communion being instituted. The last supper was also the last Passover meal. Jewish people, ever since Moses, when they celebrated the Passover meal together, they had no idea what each of the elements meant. They knew some of them like the bitter herbs. They had three pieces of matzo bread. They broke the second piece and wrapped it a napkin. Interesting!
They had no idea why. But we know what that represents. Also, the matzo bread, when it was cooked in the oven, it had to have stripes on it. And it had to have holes in it. You probably can already imagine what all this represents.
But the Jews believed that when Messiah comes, He was going to explain to them what this all means because they were just doing it. But they didn't know what it all meant.
At the last Passover meal (Last Supper), Jesus took this bread that had to have stripes on it and said this is my body. The stripes on the bread would represent the stripes He would later receive from being whipped. He then took the cup and gave it to them to drink and said this is my blood which is shed for many. When He said this, His blood had not yet been shed so this could only represent the blood that would later be shed from the hole in His body when He was pierced. So, that explains the stripes on the Passover bread and the holes in the bread. The Jews had no idea!
Please see Part 2...
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 18:19 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" When done and praying is showing God as holy to believe. Principle-Holy to all religions. Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God, to have faith, hope, love is unity"
Confirmation to all the world. Confirmation is of the Gospel performing of miracle. Trusting in Jesus intercession asking in prayer. A guaranteed result I have received being Christian is utterance of the spirtual man.Accord with Jesus Christ God the Father Romans 6:23 KJV." Quoted on prayers being done must be of God expedient, earnest, faithful, preserving."
Expedient definition- serves to promote or advance any means which may be employed to accomplish an end.
Matthew 18:20 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Associated scripture Hebrews 10:25 KJV. Jesus in the midst is Psalm 19:4 KJV to be pleasing in his sight 1 John 3:22 KJV. Jesus Christ is omnipresence amd omniscience to all the world. Quoted on blessing on united, congregational prayer. Jesus want you to have the gift of the Holy Ghost-cordial and sincere. Receiving the blessings -When speaking to have the presence of Christ is true and mighty Psalms 21:6 KJV Communion with his church as real. Speaking in advancement of position Psalms 16:11 KJV
Quoted: Measure is in believing the holy bible-Jesus Christ is life to follow. "
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Hyper Calvinist came to mind when Derek mentioned that Church.
It does well to study and get familiar with Calvin's teachings and the Hyper Calvinist teachings.
Blessings
The only way I can understand that statement is that 'by expressing faith, those 'things' (represent?) the Body and Blood of our Lord'. I'm sorry, I can't see it another way - maybe my limited comprehension. The Bread & Wine are either materially (even mystically) so, or not so changed (even with faith expressed) - I can't fathom as to how an understanding can be somewhere in-between. I would however, agree to: that 'by faith, those things represent (i.e. emblematic) of the Body & Blood'; but I'm sorry, my limited mind can't grasp an in-between possibility. Anyway, thanks again - we may not want to pursue this any longer. Blessings.
And if you have been following this thread, discussion has come up as to whether the bread & wine we see on the Communion Table only remain as physically bread & wine, or do they, in a mystical way, transform into the actual Body & Blood of our Lord. My understanding of the Scriptures associated with this solemn, yet joyful ceremony, is that what we see on the table before us, do not change at all in their material composition, hence only remain as emblems (or, symbols, tokens) of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. Please read these Gospel & the apostle Paul's accounts more fully to understand for yourself, with the Spirit's Help, to what Jesus intended for His disciples and us to understand from this act of fellowship with Him.
Welcome to the site.
This is a debated topic with good competent people on both sides.
I would refer you to , Revelation 22:17.
Do you thirst?
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that means anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
This verse is interpreted as an INVITATION to all people to come to Jesus and receive eternal life.
Salvation is in the person of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
This sacrificial gift is a display of God's love to the WHOLE WORLD!
The Gospel is not hidden unless you refuse it. Believing and receiving in a "gift" is not an act of works if so then no one would be saved.
Blessings.
Understand - perceive the intended meaning of (words, a language, or a speaker).
"he didn't understand a word It said"
We are to interpret the Bible, or understand what it says. Not to come up with our interpretation, we are not to change one word of the Bible. We are to read it and understand it. You'll need a dictionary Oxford when there an English word you dont understand. The word lost is used in the New Testament, in one case its unable to find one's way; not knowing one's whereabouts.' and there other is ' 'perish, destroy'' .
World, all, end, made, lost are words that are in the Bible and use different definitions. We can't understand it all if we don't know the definitions are being used. KJV is not hard, Thou is You, Thus is this.
No man hath seen GOD.
seen, not to perceive with the eyes but seen discern or deduce mentally after reflection or from information; understand.
'How GOD fully works remains to be seen'
Old English son, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch zien and German sehen, perhaps from an Indo-European root shared by Latin sequi 'follow'.
1 John 5:7
For there are three (Literal:1,2,3 of them. Jesus prayed to God Our Father who art in Heaven on earth) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (figurative truth: One in unity by agreeing, One in the fact they were there at the beginning, They are God Gen 1:1 Elohim GODS, Eternal)
type on youtube , last one is a video (3)
2) Simplicity of the Bible - Finis J. Dake (GPFM Lesson 1,2,3))
3) Understanding Expressions, definitions and terms of the Bible Ages - Finis J. Dake
Definite proof that the rapture is before the antichrist and tribulation. (Finis J. Dake)
3) Seven year tribulation period, the Second Coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon.
I pray you give it a listen as it is a audio recording. God Bless you. Dispel that notion that its hard to understand and a takes years of reading when God gave us His word in human language we can understand. Today English as God commissioned. Its is simple for us all agree on.
So there was no way that one couldn't underastand what was going on and ate them as common bread and wine. In verse 18 it says "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." and in verse 21 "For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken." and in v 22 "...church of God, and shame them that have not?". So those were few of their sins, like getting drunk during the meal, not thinking of those who were poor or having divisions. Those were their sins and not eating the bread and wine as common bread and wine. Well this is my opinion. Blessings to both brothers in Christ.
Sorry for my delayed answer. I was a bit beasy the last couple of days.
Chris. The difference between transubstantiation and my church's belief is that we don't believe that the bread and wine are changed in substance and become Body and Blood, but they are Body and Bood by faith. We believe that they become so not because there is any change in substance, they are still bread and wine, but by faith we accept them as Body and Blood of Christ. Accepting the belief of them being emblems finds a serious obstacle which is why do we get punished if we eat them unworthily? They are emblems. So what is the sin? Sins are very specific. What is the sin when I eat something that is a symbol of something else? It says "... unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" and "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.". Not descerning the Lord's Body. In verse 32 it says, "But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.". Why are we judged? Because we sin and the Lord wants to make us repend and clean ourselves and "not be condemned with the world". So there is a sin/sins similar to those that the unbelievers do. And this can not be because we eat symbols but because we do specific sins like the world. Verse 28 says "But let a man examine himself". Examine about what? About eating an emblem? So what is the sin when I eat it as bread and not as a symbol of flesh? This can not be a sin. It is nothing really. And assuming it is a sin definitely it can not draw the damnation of death.
Jesse. Let's see how the first christians participated in the Communion. They were sitting in tables eating like Jesus and the apostles did in the Last Supper and during or at the end of that meal the pastor stood, prayed and blessed the bread and wine into Body and Blood of Jesus. Then they deacons offered them to the believers.
Thanks for your addition to this topic of discussion. If you have ever been to a Catholic Mass your will note in the missal (order of service) Communion is called the "Sacrifice " of the Mass and those I know who are Catholic do see it as that of a non-bloody sacrifice.
Those like the RCC, Lutheran, and others who believe that Jesus is present in the bread and wine and that we do partake of his body and blood believe so because they take literally what Jesus said in the Last Supper Institution of the new covenant meal and in John 6. Others who believe in an actual spiritual presence of Jesus in the bread and wine see His words as more spiritually actualized to those who partake. And those who believe that the bread and wine are a memorial meal see His words as being symbolic. This last way of seeing communion as a memorial is reflective of more recent Protestant teaching after the lives of Luther, Calvin, and Anglicanism.
You son needs an advocate . Someone who he trusts and who respects him , to speak out on his behalf . Is there not another family member who is able to fulfill this role ? Or a close friend of his ? If not , try looking on the internet for charitable organisations that specialise in intervening on behalf of disabled people . They are out there I know . You are not in a physical position to help him other than to make some phone calls to friends or relatives or , search on the internet for disabled advocacy services . It's obvious your soon needs someone with a determined voice to help him . You can find that person or organisation . Pray to God , through Christ , that He might send you a helper , pray every day for this and search every day . Be patient and trust in God's love and mercy . Let us know how things go if you can .
Me being a member at West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California
Matthew 5:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Jesus Christ is life on earth how to live John 8:12 KJV
God's word la has to be done to all the world.
Matthew 5:15 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To believe in Jesus Christ laws, rule amd rules to get what you want. To believe when you die you will go to heaven and not he'll. 1 Corinthians 15:34 KJV Romans 10:10 KJV
Jesus Christ is power and effectual. Example House of Prayer Luke 19:46 KJV. Candles lighted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe and God has done for me Ephesians 6:15 KJV giving me peace.
Offered your heart to God. God wants you to be married.
Words you say and believe to actions to be and get reality.
Ways you can be and get what you want-reality. are listen to God's voice amd word to obey, follow, "do it" in speaking , actions, attention of communications.
Example liked by God and preferred by Christian Church named titled disciple.
Disciple definition-Showing the holy bible as life.
Matthew 5:16 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Light shine can also be the revelation of Jesus Christ given to you Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God. To have faith, hope, love.". 1 John 1:2 KJV
I have working history of evangelism street outreach , open Leading Pulpit Prayer hour at Christian Church, Open Teaching Sunday School and Mid-Week bible study service showing Jesus Christ Is God Romans 10:9-10 KJV to all religions-Principle holy.
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
"In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by . . . genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration. (CCC, 1378)". Other comments on this also show that in their Mass, they do not sacrifice the Lord again, but that simply the elements, through consecration are changed, becoming the Lord's Body.
Then we have John Calvin's word on this: "While there is no change of substance in the sacrament, Jesus Christ is nonetheless present in a real way by means of his Holy Spirit. In observing the Lord's Supper, Christ does not come down to the faithful in his body and blood; instead, the faithful are lifted up to him in spirit by the Holy Spirit."
And then we have the more independent Churches, who generally believe that the emblems remain the same, but taken in a solemn, meaningful manner, in remembrance of all that Jesus has done for them at the Cross & in His resurrection and ascension. So yes, we do have greatly divergent beliefs, as we do on many other doctrines, and of course this is nothing new, as since the days of the apostles, there have been teachers (both gnostic & others) ready to sway believers towards their form of doctrine. It should be little wonder that the Church is so diverse, some in great error, given the passing of two millenia. But the Lord knows who are His; we must but teach the Word & then allow the Spirit to make it real & relevant to us. Thank you again dear GiGi.
Other sects teach that communion is a memorial of Jesus' sacrifice for us, reminding us of His death and resurrection and the new covenant He made symbolically at the Last Supper and in reality on the cross where He shed His blood and gave His body for salvation. These teach that the bread and wine represent Jesus' body and blood, and symbolize His sacrifice as He explained the new covenant at the Last Supper.
I think it is a good thing for each believer to read the Scripture account of the communion of the Last Supper where Jesus instituted this new covenant, the John 6 section, and the various teachings of different sects and their explanation of why they believe the way they do so that one can prayerfully by faith embrace what they understand and can believe.
Communion is a holy action regardless of what position one sides with and that we should certainly partake of it with reverence, peace, and faith that Jesus has given Himself for us in His death and resurrection and we are partakers of His promise and Presence as believers. Those who hold to a "real Presence" in the taking in of the bread and wine or those who hold that the practice is a memorial of remembrance of Jesus' work on the behalf of every believer can find Scriptural support for the view they hold. Therefore, I do not think we should judge one another on this matter but instead practice and encourage others to do what our Lord and Paul instructed the church to do in regards to the Lord's Supper, being sure to be at peace with other believers, to not be drunk or gluttonous when partaking of it, or to not leave food for others in the body when the meal occurs, and then, when communion is served being sure to discern the Lord's body in the way they understand this to mean from Scripture. The Scriptures do say that it is possible to partake of communion sinfully, and we should desire to partake properly.
We should honor Christ every time we partake communion together as believers.
The Lutherans believe in consubstantiation-that Jesus is present in the bread and wine upon consecration with the words of institution. They say that Jesus is "in, with, and under", the bread and wine but do not teach that Christ is sacrificed each time communion is done in a service. They teach that Jesus is truly present in the elements, but also teach that the how of it is truly a mystery and we believe it by faith that we do receive Him at communion for strengthening our faith, healing our body, and remitting our sins that we confess during the service.
I believe the Anglican church also teach that by faith a believer does partake of the body and blood of Christ in a real but spiritual sense: The simplest phrase used to express this view is the phrase "real presence." This is an affirmation that what is happening during communion is real, and objective, and God assures it. It affirms also that God is present, and that we are to believe and trust that he is. Anglicans teach that sacraments are "effectual signs of grace and that "real presence" is Christ's spiritual presence that is experienced in the hearts of believers when the grace of the sacrament is received by faith. Since his bodily Ascension, Jesus remains spiritually present everywhere but he remains corporeally in heaven until He returns again.
cont.
1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
We need to make sure before we take the Lord supper , we are right with God . It's disrespectful to have the Lord's supper with sin in our lives . Repentance is the key word .
1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
If we don't repent , the Lord will correct us like a father to a child.
1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
I certainly take the Lord's supper very seriously. It's always good to remember Jesus Christ resurrection from the dead.
Ray , in Christ
I need to correct an error I made in my reply to you. Where I wrote "I do come to that conclusion," I meant to write I (do not) come to that conclusion.
My understanding of Matthew 18:20 hinges on the fact that post-resurrection & ascension, Christ is now seated at the right Hand of the Father ( Mark 16:19; Acts 2:23; Romans 8:34; and many other refs). So, what Jesus spoke of at that time to His disciples, would certainly mean that His Presence amongst them after He left for Heaven, would be by His Spirit Whom they would receive. As far as I'm aware, the physical Jesus will not be seen again until the translation of the saints, or by those with variant beliefs, at His Coming for war, judgement & rule on the Earth.
Now, whether those who subscribe to transubstantiation would apply Matthew 18:20 to bolster their belief or not, I can't tell; though it seems that they could do so, as the verse could support that the physical presence of Jesus could be found in the elements at the 'Eucharist'. But is that what Jesus intended His followers to believe & practise? Whether in corporate prayer, at the Lord's Table, or even in the Eucharist (as practised by some), that His Presence in Body (& Blood) is there (mystically or otherwise), or whether it is His Spirit Who ministers to us in those seasons & right through the course of a believer's life? That if we 'eat or drink unworthily bringing on damnation', the Spirit of Christ is disgraced & abhorred by such hypocritical, sinful participation - which translates of course, as directly aimed at Jesus & His Father.
We are commanded to "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God", for if we do, then the Godhead is dishonored & shamed. It is the Spirit Who broods over our worship, teaching, & communion participation testing or convicting our hearts; and this is how I see the Presence of Christ at the Lord's Table.
Romans 1:20 and no doubt scores of other scriptures speak of Christ's eternal Godhead. It was known due to the council of the Godhead beyond our understanding ( Deut. 29:29) that God the Son was to come to die to atone for the sins of men; and was first found in Genesis 3:16 (or thereabouts) to finally crush Satan's seed. It is impossible for Christ's sufferings to occur outside His appointed time when He came in the form of a man and had limitations brought about so that He could be overcome through death as the rest of us are to make the sacrifice legitimate. Clearly even glorified men are no longer subject to death; certainly more so for the Son of God! No one can say that in His eternal state now seated at the right hand of God the Father that He is still suffering. This is seen also in the Transfiguration; God indeed is beyond time and perhaps this can be seen as looking forward or beyond the limitations of time and space during His earthly ministry. All in all; of course Christ was involved with the Creation and surely is not subject to repeatedly suffering especially since the sacrifice is once for all ( Heb. 10:10). Satan is defeated and cannot cause Him any more grief; neither can the enemy affect those who are walking in the Spirit now; albeit they can be a thorn in the flesh and if we allow sin to give an opening he loves to torment our souls.
In general many seem to obsess with the fact that God is beyond time and make the overriding assumption that heaven is totally like that today. God Himself chose to allow the rules of time and space so clearly He desires to have times and seasons; and that will be apparent during a literal 1000 year Millennial reign on earth and there is no reason to expect it will be totally obliterated once the new Heaven and earth is created. Finally whatever the Spirit does because of His sacrifice it is available toall; a human Priest isn't in charge.
I argue that whether it is Baptism; Communion or "fellowship of the saints" when two or more are gathered together He is present; and of course as Revelation 1 and 2 seem to show sometimes it is only a few individuals who are walking correctly; and of course if we can't reach the lukewarm through admonition we should flee the lukewarm church that He will "spue out of His mouth as with the Laodiceans.
We do well to study what it means to be taking communion "unworthily". Certainly unconfessed sin comes to mind but it may be easy to overlook forgiving one's brother first as Jesus said we should do before going to the altar. Certainly this affects communion as well as we are part of the Body of Christ and any schisms hurt us and others as well.
We could also look at what made Christ's body and blood unique. He was born based on the Spirit basically being the "seed" that allowed for a virgin birth. If we consider what makes Him different we can look at a perfect "DNA" and such; but the spiritual perfection vs imperfection is beyond just the symptom of physical decay and death; it is being sinless vs sinful; inherited sin can't be explained readily. Also he bears the scars; certainly not the suffering eternally. This is what makes the "stigmata" of occultic origin only Christ atones.