Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. There is also another body of the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Secondly theSpirit aspect: "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Re.4:5). Thirdly we have the Lamb who 'prevailed to open the book' with seven seals, and he was found worthy to set judgement in motion. As an overcomer he represents the soul, or as head of the church. Body Spirit and Soul constitute Trinity as a memorial in heaven.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)" defines Trinity:The Word made flesh was continuation of the Spirit of Christ with which he could be deemed the Spiritual Rock (1 Co.10:4). For this reason he could say," Jesus said to the Jews, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.(John8:58-NKJV)."
Symbolism of the rock, water and the slain Lamb are sustained no matter where, whether in heaven or on earth the word is established eternally.
When we speak of human likeness his body spirit and soul gives Trinity a template for every believer. In creating man in 'our likeness' body spirit and soul of man correspond with Trinity.
By principle of Similitude heaven and earth are set on a single standard. The Son upholds all things 'by the word of his power' similarly he reconciles all men to his Father in him.
It is set in a series of parables. In the parables of Job one might think of the Socratic dialogue as nearest, and it is search for truth as its core value. The Bible clearly declares no man may question God and wrest a meaning by force or by arguments. "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?(Is.45:9). We find Abraham interceding with God with regards to the imminent judgment over Sodom. He asks, "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Ge.18:17-33).
Truth is the only basis that 'still small voice' as in the case of Elijah, plays a crucial role in the parables of Job. Job uses a parable, which in the parlance of the Spirit is to instruct us the depths and riches we have in the eternal God.
For example what is the confidence of Job? "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:(19:25)" How do we reconcile this idea 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth' (Is.55:8-9) with our thoughts ? Truth in our heart is the only medium of instruction. The Spirit has set the Book of Job with this in mind as a series of parables.
Parables are clothed with allusions to the natural world so these are direct confrontation of two worlds of the flesh and the Spirit.
Parables are to be understood as introduction 'How To Do the Will of My Father in some easy lessons' could well be the by-line to the whole body of Parables. Key to understand him is to do the will of God the Father," If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ( John 7:17)."
Good evening Ronald! One possible meditation for the Trinity belief to be tied to salvation is the parts of the Godhead are not equal in authority. The door to our salvation was chosen by the Father to be found in the Son and confirmed afterwards by the Spirit.
Apologies to all. In my first paragraph I had not corrected my initial wording, 'of the Nature of God', when I substituted it here with 'God's Nature' but omitted removing the article preceding it. That's a nasty error & I need to go slower in my revisions.
That's a great point & Scripture ( Acts 9:5) brother S. Spencer & thanks for it. That is indeed a very telling encounter that Saul had. He asked, Who art thou, Lord? Saul was confused. He didn't refer to that Voice as God nor any other divine being, but used 'Kyrie', a title given in this instance, of 'respect or reverence to someone of distinction'. So, we see Saul, on his way to massacre these Christians & probably fuming through his teeth all through his journey there, suddenly falling to his knees in respect, hearing this voice from above calling him by name and asking why he was being persecuted. We can hardly imagine the thoughts & conflicts that Saul must have been going through. Not the least of which, 'there is only one God in Heaven, so who is this speaking?'
And so the blinders on Saul fell off & his heart was made pliable. How? By hearing the Word of God & having a life-changing experience with the God He actually despised, by rejecting His Son. And so we can understand Paul's yearning in anguished prayer, "my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." ( Romans 10:1-3). He longed for his people to have what he had received directly from the Risen Christ. And so it must be for all who would turn to Jesus for salvation: the Word must cut deep into their hearts & a mighty revelation received, that makes sin absolutely detestable & the Love of God & His Salvation absolutely craved for & treasured. Every blessing brother & thank you for your posts - always read & well received.
It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.
Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?
Brother Giannis. I note that your question is directed to those holding a non-trinitarian position, but thought to clarify that these folk would willingly accept that at the miraculous birth of Jesus, His impeccable & sinless life, & His Father's acceptance of Him & ascension to His right Hand, Jesus gained a complete Divine character & position with the Father. Therefore, regarding Jesus' Presence & Ministry among us by His Spirit denotes His present divinity, assuming all of God's Nature within Him. And this understanding I feel can be accepted by all of us: that of Christ being Divine & sending forth His Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God to accomplish His Will.
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
" thou shalt commit adultery instead of thou shalt not. They caught it and destroyed all copies they could and I doubt anyone acted on this and lead them to sin."
If someone acted on this and use this error for a excuse it wouldn't fly with all the other scriptures stating what Adultery is.
The word of God straightens itself out.
I heard J Vernon mcgee say the word of God is like a lion in a cage.
He don't need anyone to be there to guard him.
Just open the cage and he will take care of himself.
It is said that those of the Oneness Pentacostal camp never refer to themselves as "modalists"; and in reality the term "Trinity" although the best description we have for God being represented by three different entities as it were along with any other term has its limitations. As with any other issue; when there is error involved there is always a deeper reason as well as associated other spurious elements of doctrine involved. I am writing believing in; more or less the Trinitarian approach and using scriptures to support this concept which I will attempt to do in further postings; provided that incoming comments are something the Lord leads me to respond to and that it is edifying to involve myself is such an undertaking.
The first thing I feel obligated to respond to is the charge by those such as Jino Jennings that those of my persuasion believe in multiple gods or 3 different dieties. That by no means is what I and others believe. I will also give positive affirmation where praise is due; the focus on holiness which is mandated by those in that camp and knowledge of scripture; particularly in the Old Testament helps build knowledge. He and others in that type of church also tend to have elders read scriptures along with their commentary and also preach from time to time. Such involvement would be helpful in any church to some extent as scripturally the gift of elder is basically synonymous with a pastor and there should be shared responsibilities in a church rather than the imbalance we sometimes see when a head pastor tries to fly solo. There is; however a tendancy among that denomination of shouting and appearing to "lord it over" people; shouting and other "signs" such as tongues and uncontrollable behaviors that are often part of a typical service. An emphasis on the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved was a challenge given to me over 30 years ago which goes against 1 Corinthians 12:30
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
Hi Giannis , I'm not one for big debates so I would like to keep this brief if that's ok :) . I do not ever pray to Jesus or anyone other than God , my Heavenly Father , the Holy One of Israel . I pray to Him through Jesus Christ my Sinless High Priest who is now in Heaven . As for your question about how Jesus can be in the midst of Christians all over the world , I personally believe that 1st Corinthians Ch 15 can answer that for you . I hope that I've answered your questions satisfactorily , I will let Paul explain it , he's better at that sort of thing than I am :) .
Hi Momsage , I haven't gone anywhere :) which statement of mine are you asking about ? Lots of people on here make statements , some I agree with and some I don't . I'm not the type who feels the need to discuss every little point , I respect people's right to their own opinion and even if I disagree with them I just don't always feel the need to discuss the point that I disagree with . My posts are a reflection of my personality I suppose :) . I'm a bit of a live and let live kind of person , most of the time :) . I learned a long time ago that the chances of me ever being able to change anyone's opinion about anything are almost nil , so I don't often try .
Thank you RLW for your input. It sounds like from your response you don't believe that God is triune like 1 John 5:7 says. The 3 verses about Godhead are not the only part of the Bible that says God is plural. Genesis 1:26 for example: "And God said, Let us make man in our image.." Jesus's followers called Jesus "God" and worshipped Him, etc.
Evidence I see so far indicates that most references to God are triune. One, singular, but triune God. Not 3 Gods, one God. As hard as it is to comprehend the Bible gives a distinction within God between the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Hi Jema: I hope you're doing well but I'd like to ask, Is it fair to make a statement and then run away? My belief that the KJB is the only true word, written by God not man ,is real and comes nowhere near mythical; (imaginary, fictious.) I really don't understand how any true believer can't grasp this truth. The Holy Spirit said what He had to say in 1611 and His inspiration doesn't need any help from man in these modern times. Man iis to busy so he believes in these new modern versions because he, for whatever reason, doesn't want to bother with 2 Tim. 2:15. In a sense he has crossed it out of his bible. These versions are a tool of the devil to distract man away from God. We should all be like the example God's word gives us in Psalm 1: 1-2. Just be sure that delight is in God's true word or you could be led astray by the lies of the devil in the NIV, NKJB, ESB, ASB, ETC. I have done an extensive comparison study on the lies these versions tell as a warning but I wonder if anyone will heed the warning.
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
So true, we don't think about it much but for many years the Old Testament was the only Scripture the early Church had and they had to go to synagogues to here them.
A good grounding in and knowledge of and respect for the old testament is very helpful I think , it leaves me with no doubts in this matter :) . May God bless you .
There is much in this chapter, your question is God in this verse the Godhead or the Father?
To answer; in context Jesus was telling parables and the Pharisees, and the Sadducees were trying to trip Jesus up. These verses were about the resurrection, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not. In verse 31 Jesus asked them haven't you read; Job 19:25-27Psalm 17:15Psalm 49:15 "which was spoken unto you by God" so Jesus is referring to His Father who is God.
What does the word Godhead mean? Does it mean a Triune God? It is in three verses, Acts 17:29Rom. 1:20Col. 2:9. Translated from Greek words which means divine, divinity, or deity, that was replaced with another English word that was not a word until the 1500s and placed only in these three verses and the reason is questionable.
Study for your conscience in prayer with an open mind and through the Holy Spirit, God will show you the truth.
As I've said to Gigi , I had no idea that my posts are so provocative , at least to a couple of people for sure . I'm sorry if I provoke you , I just say what I'm thinking at the time , I'm a spontaneous person and I don't sit and think about it or work out my posts before I post them . Maybe that's a fault in me but I'm just not that kind of person . I like spontaneous discussion , that's how I talk and that's how I post , straight from the heart to my mouth . That's how I like to discuss and I like spontaneous responses , from the heart not from a book ( unless it's the Bible ) or the internet etc . If my posts get on your nerves please just ignore me :) . I say what I think in the moment .
I haven't insisted that anyone do anything and I didn't realise that my posts were so provocative . This is a KJV site , so I merely reminded people that it's not unreasonable for people to expect this site to be KJV based . People should not be made to feel as if they are some how wrong in that expectation , given the fact that this site is called the King James Bible site . It's as simple as that . I'm done with talking in circles now and don't enjoy stating the obvious over and over again so I'm going to stop .
Hello Adam. I consider your question through two separate perspectives: one, before the incarnation of the Word of God and the other, after it. From my readings of the whole Word of God, I don't believe that the writers of the OT nor their hearers would have understood any other concept or acceptance of the God's Nature other than 'He is One & there is none beside Him' (e.g. Isaiah 45:5.6).
Even the "Shema Yisrael" ( Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is Israel's central belief & affirmation on the singularity of God's Person, & any suggestion of a 'compound' Nature of God would be anathema. Also Isaiah 53:1-12 and Isaiah 9:6,7 references to a coming Messiah, which should clearly reveal the Divine Nature of a Coming One, is discarded by them, then & now. So, anything of a Triune God must be rejected by the Jew, & only the operation of God by His Spirit (i.e. God revealing Himself & working before them) should be acceptable to them (e.g. Psalm 51:10,11; Isaiah 11:2; & many others). As believers though, we can see the Triune God in operation in the whole Bible, but Israel is blinded to this Truth & their hearts hardened.
When Jesus came & spoke (e.g. John 16:27,28; John 17:5), He declared His Divine Nature, that which was not revealed before. So your reference ( Matthew 22:32), speaks primarily of the One Nature of God; but to those who believe, having received salvation through Jesus Christ, know that the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob was always the Triune God, Who would one day manifest Himself fully to a needy world: God's Word first by the prophets, now given through His Word made flesh ( Hebrews 1:1-3) . What Israel knew of the One God then, should have revealed the full Nature of a Triune God at the appearance of their Messiah. But their eyes were blinded & hearts hardened. Therefore, as Christians, I believe that we should see God (in the OT & NT) as a Triune God, manifesting Himself also as His Word and His Spirit going forth to accomplish His Will over His creation.
In receiving Christ as the Savior the believer is tagged as the number Seven. Seven in a primary sense is determined in heaven. It speaks for the mystery of his Will. As a new creation The word is his heart or he abides in Christ.(Col.3:1-3). In short Seven is made up of 3+4 (where the sum of 3 the tag for the Son and 4 for the Word become flesh.)
This brings us to the beast, the son of perdition in whom the word of God has no place; neither does he acknowledge the supremacy of the Son.
Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue. The Spirit introduces Goliath as epitome of spiritual wickedness in high place (Ge.6:1-3). He is a giant a tag as the number 6 signifies. While describing the person the Spirit gives a list of sixes: his height 6 cubits and the steel point of his javelin weighed 6x100 shekels. It ties with another giant, "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.." (2 Sa.21:20)
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not./ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets." (Matt.24:23-24) We are looking at the present times. False Christs and false prophets have their spiel to deceive the unwary. Jesus shall appear as a sign, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (24:27-30)
He appears to gather and not for reigning the disobedient children of wrath on the earth. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."(Re.1:7)
We see the number 6 associated with Judgment. In the Book of Ezekiel we find six men came by 'the higher gate... every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; (Ez.9:2) Among them one had the writer's inkhorn by his side. God commands him to set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who should be spared from the slaughter of the city. This is a vision but the Spirit inserts the mark, which was earlier introduced in the episode of Abel-Cain episode. It shall be sustained till the end when the saints are described having the name of the Father written on their foreheads( Re.22:4).
Martyrs for the Word of God are those who had not worshiped the Beast (Re.20:4). They shall reign with Jesus Christ in his Messiah aspect. It is the Millennial Reign. It is in heaven. In the new heaven and in the new earth, there was no more sea. (Re.21:1) The overcomers are enclosed within. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Re.3:12). So we are looking at the mid air.
"but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex.33:11) The holy city of God has nothing more to do with earth; Jerusalem or sea.
Coming back to the significance of the number we see another group having a mark, either on the foreheads or on their hands. The number is 666 or the Mark of the Beast.
It is not difficult to understand where the authority of the Beast would come from. Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue.
Before Satan is totally annihilated he shall wreak havoc on the Children of disobedience. So the ravage is on the spirit, soul and body of man. It is indicated by 6-6-6, each representing the area of corruption. The Spirit set whole man a tripartite creation to represent Triune God.
To quote 'we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son reflects on the name he acquired above every other name.' In the Book of Genesis' after making Adam a living soul God brings his creation to Adam. "And whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."(Ge.2:19) As mentioned earlier the Spirit presents from the standpoint of the Father and the last book is about the fulfillment of the will of his Father. He is in his majesty and he promises the churches as an overcomer.
Jesus Christ was the Word become flesh and he overcame the world."In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."( John 16:33). So holiness of God, "Be ye holy for I am holy" is the characteristic of the holiness where his grace and truth rounds off each one. The name of the Father is written on His servants. The first fruits, " having his Father's name written in their foreheads.: have their new song. What Jesus Christ promised is the seal of righteousness like the amulet, "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death;"(The Song 8:6; Re.14:1-3)
Genesis began with, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and the same after Jesus Christ has fulfilled the divine Will is seen from the POV of the church. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." It is not God but John is recording it.
Fellowship of God with Man is inshrined in heaven as a memorial. In Re.5:6 we have a visual transcription of the will of God and it shall never change. There must a body, is it not? The body of four and twenty elders is one. There is also another body of the four beasts and they are reflecting the glory of God and setting his Son as the firstborn of all creation gives us one beast having the face of a man. God created man 'in our image', and we have the last Adam represented. According to the will of God 'Let them have dominion,' refers to Adam and three beasts representing His creation.
Secondly theSpirit aspect: "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."(Re.4:5). Thirdly we have the Lamb who 'prevailed to open the book' with seven seals, and he was found worthy to set judgement in motion. As an overcomer he represents the soul, or as head of the church. Body Spirit and Soul constitute Trinity as a memorial in heaven.
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)" defines Trinity:The Word made flesh was continuation of the Spirit of Christ with which he could be deemed the Spiritual Rock (1 Co.10:4). For this reason he could say," Jesus said to the Jews, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.(John8:58-NKJV)."
Symbolism of the rock, water and the slain Lamb are sustained no matter where, whether in heaven or on earth the word is established eternally.
When we speak of human likeness his body spirit and soul gives Trinity a template for every believer. In creating man in 'our likeness' body spirit and soul of man correspond with Trinity.
By principle of Similitude heaven and earth are set on a single standard. The Son upholds all things 'by the word of his power' similarly he reconciles all men to his Father in him.
(See under J-Jesus his deity)
It is set in a series of parables. In the parables of Job one might think of the Socratic dialogue as nearest, and it is search for truth as its core value. The Bible clearly declares no man may question God and wrest a meaning by force or by arguments. "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?(Is.45:9). We find Abraham interceding with God with regards to the imminent judgment over Sodom. He asks, "And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Ge.18:17-33).
Truth is the only basis that 'still small voice' as in the case of Elijah, plays a crucial role in the parables of Job. Job uses a parable, which in the parlance of the Spirit is to instruct us the depths and riches we have in the eternal God.
For example what is the confidence of Job? "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:(19:25)" How do we reconcile this idea 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth' (Is.55:8-9) with our thoughts ? Truth in our heart is the only medium of instruction. The Spirit has set the Book of Job with this in mind as a series of parables.
Parables are clothed with allusions to the natural world so these are direct confrontation of two worlds of the flesh and the Spirit.
Parables are to be understood as introduction 'How To Do the Will of My Father in some easy lessons' could well be the by-line to the whole body of Parables. Key to understand him is to do the will of God the Father," If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself ( John 7:17)."
And so the blinders on Saul fell off & his heart was made pliable. How? By hearing the Word of God & having a life-changing experience with the God He actually despised, by rejecting His Son. And so we can understand Paul's yearning in anguished prayer, "my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." ( Romans 10:1-3). He longed for his people to have what he had received directly from the Risen Christ. And so it must be for all who would turn to Jesus for salvation: the Word must cut deep into their hearts & a mighty revelation received, that makes sin absolutely detestable & the Love of God & His Salvation absolutely craved for & treasured. Every blessing brother & thank you for your posts - always read & well received.
It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.
Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?
God bless,
RLW
So the claim to Christ's Divinity is not an issue after His Birth, Life & Ministry, rather, the issue is even before His Birth to lay down His Life. I consider John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down HIS life for his friends" and 1 John 3:16, "Hereby perceive we the love (of God), because he laid down HIS life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (Noting, that "of God" is in italics, thus not in the original). And from these verses, I ask, 'are we seeing simply Christ's Love for all that caused Him to lay down His Life in sacrifice, or are we also seeing God's Love for all in bringing forth a Son for the purpose of providing the one & only Sacrifice?'
It is true, that Jesus' love for sinners was His prime motivation to give up His Life in redemption; but if it was also God's Love for all people that caused Him to provide a sacrifice, can we measure or understand that Love, by Him just creating a suitable sacrifice or by giving up His Own Life for us? An earthly perspective: is real love & salvation seen by someone calling out to another to help a child caught in a rip, or should not that the man himself go out & risk his life to save? It's easy to get someone else, but true love is by doing the job yourself. And God did that in the Incarnation.
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
God bless,
RLW
" thou shalt commit adultery instead of thou shalt not. They caught it and destroyed all copies they could and I doubt anyone acted on this and lead them to sin."
If someone acted on this and use this error for a excuse it wouldn't fly with all the other scriptures stating what Adultery is.
The word of God straightens itself out.
I heard J Vernon mcgee say the word of God is like a lion in a cage.
He don't need anyone to be there to guard him.
Just open the cage and he will take care of himself.
God bless.
It is said that those of the Oneness Pentacostal camp never refer to themselves as "modalists"; and in reality the term "Trinity" although the best description we have for God being represented by three different entities as it were along with any other term has its limitations. As with any other issue; when there is error involved there is always a deeper reason as well as associated other spurious elements of doctrine involved. I am writing believing in; more or less the Trinitarian approach and using scriptures to support this concept which I will attempt to do in further postings; provided that incoming comments are something the Lord leads me to respond to and that it is edifying to involve myself is such an undertaking.
The first thing I feel obligated to respond to is the charge by those such as Jino Jennings that those of my persuasion believe in multiple gods or 3 different dieties. That by no means is what I and others believe. I will also give positive affirmation where praise is due; the focus on holiness which is mandated by those in that camp and knowledge of scripture; particularly in the Old Testament helps build knowledge. He and others in that type of church also tend to have elders read scriptures along with their commentary and also preach from time to time. Such involvement would be helpful in any church to some extent as scripturally the gift of elder is basically synonymous with a pastor and there should be shared responsibilities in a church rather than the imbalance we sometimes see when a head pastor tries to fly solo. There is; however a tendancy among that denomination of shouting and appearing to "lord it over" people; shouting and other "signs" such as tongues and uncontrollable behaviors that are often part of a typical service. An emphasis on the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved was a challenge given to me over 30 years ago which goes against 1 Corinthians 12:30
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, you are correct I believe in one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as most of the greetings in the epistles Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 and more, and nowhere is this doctrine taught in the New Testament that we must believe for salvation.
It is like Matthew 28:19 the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved. My study of 1 John 5:7 is that it was added from the Latin Vulgate and was not in the original text, but that can be debated.
I understand I am in the minority and have discussed this before. We can find Scripture to fit a doctrine, but can we find Scripture where the doctrine was taught? I have not found where the Trinity doctrine is taught. Like Genesis 1:26 there are many beings in heaven and the word us does not say God was speaking to Jesus, that is an assumption.
Thank you again for discussing this in a loving and respectful manor, this subject is deep and as long as we have love for each other, and truth is what we are in search of.
God bless,
RLW
Evidence I see so far indicates that most references to God are triune. One, singular, but triune God. Not 3 Gods, one God. As hard as it is to comprehend the Bible gives a distinction within God between the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.
I have a question for all fellow christians who do not consider that Jesus is God.(hello Ronald, I saw your comment and I was reminded of something I was thinking lately.)
Let me do an introduction before going to my point. When we talk with people from the Orthodox church who often pray to saints or to Mary Jesus' mother, we ask them how is it possible that they hear you all, millions and millions of you, they are not Gods after all. So many millions of people pray to Mary, how is she able to hear them all and, as they claim, she often responds. She is not God, only God can do that.
So I come to what I want to say. Somewhere in NT, Jesus says that when two or more are gathered in His name then He is there among them. How is that possible if Jesus is not God. Because at the same time I believe thousands of congregations take place in the whole world. To do such a thing one must have divine properties. He also said somewhere that when we ask something in His name then He will do that. How can He hear millions of prayers simultaneously if He is not God.
Expecting for your opinion.
So true, we don't think about it much but for many years the Old Testament was the only Scripture the early Church had and they had to go to synagogues to here them.
God bless,
RLW
There is much in this chapter, your question is God in this verse the Godhead or the Father?
To answer; in context Jesus was telling parables and the Pharisees, and the Sadducees were trying to trip Jesus up. These verses were about the resurrection, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not. In verse 31 Jesus asked them haven't you read; Job 19:25-27 Psalm 17:15 Psalm 49:15 "which was spoken unto you by God" so Jesus is referring to His Father who is God.
What does the word Godhead mean? Does it mean a Triune God? It is in three verses, Acts 17:29 Rom. 1:20 Col. 2:9. Translated from Greek words which means divine, divinity, or deity, that was replaced with another English word that was not a word until the 1500s and placed only in these three verses and the reason is questionable.
Study for your conscience in prayer with an open mind and through the Holy Spirit, God will show you the truth.
God bless,
RLW
Even the "Shema Yisrael" ( Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is Israel's central belief & affirmation on the singularity of God's Person, & any suggestion of a 'compound' Nature of God would be anathema. Also Isaiah 53:1-12 and Isaiah 9:6,7 references to a coming Messiah, which should clearly reveal the Divine Nature of a Coming One, is discarded by them, then & now. So, anything of a Triune God must be rejected by the Jew, & only the operation of God by His Spirit (i.e. God revealing Himself & working before them) should be acceptable to them (e.g. Psalm 51:10,11; Isaiah 11:2; & many others). As believers though, we can see the Triune God in operation in the whole Bible, but Israel is blinded to this Truth & their hearts hardened.
When Jesus came & spoke (e.g. John 16:27,28; John 17:5), He declared His Divine Nature, that which was not revealed before. So your reference ( Matthew 22:32), speaks primarily of the One Nature of God; but to those who believe, having received salvation through Jesus Christ, know that the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob was always the Triune God, Who would one day manifest Himself fully to a needy world: God's Word first by the prophets, now given through His Word made flesh ( Hebrews 1:1-3) . What Israel knew of the One God then, should have revealed the full Nature of a Triune God at the appearance of their Messiah. But their eyes were blinded & hearts hardened. Therefore, as Christians, I believe that we should see God (in the OT & NT) as a Triune God, manifesting Himself also as His Word and His Spirit going forth to accomplish His Will over His creation.
In receiving Christ as the Savior the believer is tagged as the number Seven. Seven in a primary sense is determined in heaven. It speaks for the mystery of his Will. As a new creation The word is his heart or he abides in Christ.(Col.3:1-3). In short Seven is made up of 3+4 (where the sum of 3 the tag for the Son and 4 for the Word become flesh.)
This brings us to the beast, the son of perdition in whom the word of God has no place; neither does he acknowledge the supremacy of the Son.
Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue. The Spirit introduces Goliath as epitome of spiritual wickedness in high place (Ge.6:1-3). He is a giant a tag as the number 6 signifies. While describing the person the Spirit gives a list of sixes: his height 6 cubits and the steel point of his javelin weighed 6x100 shekels. It ties with another giant, "And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.." (2 Sa.21:20)
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not./ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets." (Matt.24:23-24) We are looking at the present times. False Christs and false prophets have their spiel to deceive the unwary. Jesus shall appear as a sign, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (24:27-30)
He appears to gather and not for reigning the disobedient children of wrath on the earth. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."(Re.1:7)
We see the number 6 associated with Judgment. In the Book of Ezekiel we find six men came by 'the higher gate... every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; (Ez.9:2) Among them one had the writer's inkhorn by his side. God commands him to set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who should be spared from the slaughter of the city. This is a vision but the Spirit inserts the mark, which was earlier introduced in the episode of Abel-Cain episode. It shall be sustained till the end when the saints are described having the name of the Father written on their foreheads( Re.22:4).
Martyrs for the Word of God are those who had not worshiped the Beast (Re.20:4). They shall reign with Jesus Christ in his Messiah aspect. It is the Millennial Reign. It is in heaven. In the new heaven and in the new earth, there was no more sea. (Re.21:1) The overcomers are enclosed within. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Re.3:12). So we are looking at the mid air.
"but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." (Ex.33:11) The holy city of God has nothing more to do with earth; Jerusalem or sea.
Coming back to the significance of the number we see another group having a mark, either on the foreheads or on their hands. The number is 666 or the Mark of the Beast.
It is not difficult to understand where the authority of the Beast would come from. Satan as destroyer is the angel gone rogue.
Before Satan is totally annihilated he shall wreak havoc on the Children of disobedience. So the ravage is on the spirit, soul and body of man. It is indicated by 6-6-6, each representing the area of corruption. The Spirit set whole man a tripartite creation to represent Triune God.
To quote 'we are looking at the name from the standpoint of God. He named the heaven, the earth and so on. So holiness of God as testified by his Son reflects on the name he acquired above every other name.' In the Book of Genesis' after making Adam a living soul God brings his creation to Adam. "And whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."(Ge.2:19) As mentioned earlier the Spirit presents from the standpoint of the Father and the last book is about the fulfillment of the will of his Father. He is in his majesty and he promises the churches as an overcomer.
Jesus Christ was the Word become flesh and he overcame the world."In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."( John 16:33). So holiness of God, "Be ye holy for I am holy" is the characteristic of the holiness where his grace and truth rounds off each one. The name of the Father is written on His servants. The first fruits, " having his Father's name written in their foreheads.: have their new song. What Jesus Christ promised is the seal of righteousness like the amulet, "Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death;"(The Song 8:6; Re.14:1-3)
Genesis began with, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and the same after Jesus Christ has fulfilled the divine Will is seen from the POV of the church. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." It is not God but John is recording it.