To add to my earlier comment and your statements regarding repentance and brokenness before God. I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God.
But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us.
I think that some of this may be seen as God is drawing us. But it will certainly be in evidence once God applies His Salvation to our life, in performing the MIRACLE of the New Birth, in giving the one whom He is saving a New Resurrected Soul, ie making them Born Again.
I do believe that God may DRAW those whom He saves in very individual and varied ways. This might be very quickly or very prolonged.
This is all very mysterious and we need to be very careful not to put our spin on God's process. But one thing is certain. All of this is God's work not our work in any sense as God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
All of the glory for every aspect of our salvation belongs to God Alone. And we can take no credit whatsoever for any part of our salvation. Lest we become like the man of Numbers 15.
We should stand amazed that God would have saved us. And asking WHY ME? I deserve only Thy wrath and condemnation.
Hi S. Spencer: The reason I mentioned the Adamic nature to you is because in your discussion; "Irenaeus And Infant Baptism" you basically said: "the sin nature is incurable." Plus, as to the questions, I got you mixed up with someone else, so sorry. I know you don't want to discuss this but I must respond to what you have said. The Holy Ghost wrote the bible so we would have to study it like a person learning a trade would if he wants to please his employer. Study it diligently ourselves. Honestly ask yourself; do you believe what you are saying because you did a thorough study of sanctification, the infilling of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, or do you believe that way you do about the Adamic nature because you have studied it yourself? You say there are no scriptures that the Adamic nature is removed by sanctification, however, there are scripture that teaches us that it does. Sanctification means to be set apart, to be made Holy, this is how it deals with our love for sin by removing it permanently. Jesus gave the Holy Ghost to His Bride for strength to have power against the weapons of the enemy and to be the perfect, beautiful Bride who has prepared HERSELF for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Revelations 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." At the rapture He can meet a beautiful bride, in fine linen and clean and white which is the righteousness of the saints. Jesus will not have to eradicate the Adamic nature before She can be raptured or else She hasn't made herself ready, He has. God has a plan for His church and it is a perfect plan. In Part 2 you seem to say that there are sins that that are not part of the 10 commandments? What are those? If you don't answer, I understand but if you do please address my questions. I guess I've type enough. God Bless :)
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich."
Lillias Trotter wrote that those who suffer most have most to give. Isn't this true? When we suffer for Christ's sake, God gives us strong character--so we can help others going through similar trials. I believe the church is poverty stricken because they have suffered little for Christ.
Suffering itself does not give God's wealth. But, suffering for Christ's sake does. How much have you and I suffered for Christ's sake. The amount of this kind of suffering can measure our usefulness to God--if we apply it to our hearts.
In addition to your responses and questions for me, I also read what you commented to Bennymkje.
There are many differences that seem apparant in the Gospel that we each are proclaiming. We each seem to have a very different understanding of three fundamental doctrines:
1.The Nature of Mankind appart from Salvation.
2. The Nature of God's Justice and Judgment.
3. The Nature of Salvation.
At the heart of these differences, I suspect, is the way that we approach the Scriptures and perhaps even our view of the Bible itself. I know that we have had this discussion before but it never hurts to repeat.
I believe that God Himself is the author of the entire Bible as He used Holy men of old to record precisely every word and phrase and chapter in the entire Bible from the mind and mouth of God. The Bible, in its original languages, is in every aspect the Holy Word of God Himself.
I believe that the Bible is God's Law Book for Mankind and that the Gospel of God's Judgment and Salvation is found in some aspect in every chapter and verse of the entire Bible. And we must be ready to test any doctrine or practice that we hold against anything and everything that God declares in the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
I believe that we must approach and interpret the Bible using ONLY the principles that God declares in the Bible. Some of these are:
1. We must compare Scripture with Scripture apart from any concept or idea that may come out of man's mind.
2. All scripture is profitable for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
3. Christ, the author of the entire Bible, spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not. He did this both to reveal and to hide truth.
4. God has a time table for revealing truth from the Bible, particularly as we approach the end.
5. And most importantly, God Himself must open our heart and mind to give us understanding.
May I ask, What do believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?
RED APPLE TREATY 4 ME ONLY on Psalms 27 - 8 months ago
Psalms 27:7-14 KJV
Psalms 27:9 KJV
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation."
Respond: Psalms 27:9 KJV
I pray and have faith the land I'm living in USA will be replenished flourishing of God goodness of his earth and resources .
Respond: 1 Peter 5:7 KJV
And Jesus Christ has been blessing me to have salvation, in all aspects and areas in my life I have been in and when I go to receive money , food. Clothes and many other things that the world itself could not contain.
Salvation- The act of saving preseveration ,preservation from destruction, danger and great calamity.
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
"Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you." 1 Peter 5:7 KJV
"Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life."
God willed the man "in our image" in heavenly places but he was formed out of dust of the ground. So curse of the ground 'for thy sake' is not the general rule but for man who has sinned. God's blessings do not change for those who are in Christ Jesus. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Ro.8:1) Ground is cursed on account of Adam,- and he represents all those who are under the law of sin and death. Death refers to the soul as part of the divine injunction. "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."(2:17b)
"In the day" refers to the day decreed for the Son. Adam is created after our image and God has left all judgment to his Son.. This difference we can illustrate from Simon Peter before and after Jesus made him fisher of men. "Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing." ( Luke 5:5) What kind of work is it that you spent your day and night for your livelihood and at the end of it you are still zero? It is the curse on Adam working. We have Jesus assuring his disciples, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."(Matt.18:18). Here we see the Law of the Spirit working so blessings of the Man component is still in tact.
We see the force of the law of sin working in vv.16-17
"And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."(v.18)
"And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."(2:16) Here we have Adam naming the woman thereby establishing part of the curse on Eve. Elizabeth addresses Mary in harmony with the curse on Eve,"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"( Luke 1:43). Does this make Mary the mother of God?
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
What I am considering here is how Christ forever is going to be in His glorified body; hence not only being the "first of the firstfruits" as it were ( 1 Cor 15:23) but in a sense eternally being displayed as perfect God and perfect man. He is going to bear the marks of His crucifixion on His body forever; no doubt painless for Him but an everlasting reminder to us what it cost Him to do this in our place.
As I alluded to in my earlier post; God's plan for man changes from the Edenic garden to a city of gold; from man ruling over the earth to Christ and God leading with a rod of iron; and destroying Satan's Antichrist and armies upon His return.
In general it can be said that God never intended to "lord it over his subjects" if we are to use a common phrase. He is ruling and reigning with us ( Rev. 20:6; 2 Tim. 2:12 and many other verses). David is also going to rule in the Millennial Kingdom ( Hosea 3:5). Christ will still act as impartial judge as ultimately arbitrated by the Father (see Isaiah 11:3 and 4). Then God Himself will rule in eternity ( 1 Cor. 15:24).
We could say that all of human history is as a stage play-albeit in real time and real suffering. It serves to glorify God and of course He is victorious over all foes as He is Creator and they created beings under His control. Some things ( Deut. 29:29) are mysteries
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Introduction: Genesis 3:15 The ball is rolling....
The prophesied redemption in this verse signifies in time and space the plan no doubt formulated in eternity past for Christ to come and die for the sins of man; and to be Resurrected thus being victorious over Satan with a fatal wound; as it were. We have no idea how much time there was before this between Satan's creation and fall ( Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28) and his appearance here; no doubt he had time to come up with his master plan of deception and probably had some idea that man was going to be put in his place of authority and eventually be exalted to rulership to take over his position in a way. We don't specifically know this; and it is possible that he had to wing it after he saw man being created. Nonetheless; he likely had ample time to consider how to attempt to reverse his fate after being removed from his original place as a sort of music worship leader in heaven. This of course led to a prophecy of his ultimate defeat which is also seen with the fatal wound of his Antichrist beast in both Revelation 13 and Zechariah 11:17 as well as his eventual confinement to the bottomless pit and then the lake of fire.
Christ's plan was then set forth; which would have him live as the perfect man; the "second Adam" ( 1 Cor. 15:45-49); die for us and Ressurect.
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
I am specifically examining this passage in light of Christ's coexistence with God the Father and also the concept of positional changes in light of His substitutionary atonement and exaltation to rule over the earth as King of Kings; Lord of Lords.
Introduction: As usual; I am "winging it" here-albeit our church recently studied this entire book and currently Sunday school is focusing on Phillippians 1 in a deeper analysis. The overarching point here on having the "mind of Christ" would appear to be thinking on all things that are in Phillipians 4:7-8 that are "true"; "honorable"; etc which also was to reflect Paul's life and teachings as an example. It also should be examined as to being humbled then highly exalted; we suffer for a time then are glorified and in His presence; ruling and reigning with Him. While we suffer on earth; we are also "seated in heavenly places" ( Eph. 2:6).
If we backtrack to the dawn of human history (for those who truly believe that) we don't see any indication at the time of Adam and Eve's creation that there was any plan at work for Christ to actually rule on earth with a rod of iron; conquering his enemies; etc. Of course there was no sin at first and therefore such actions would not be necessary. Nonetheless; in Genesis 3:15 we see the theme of Christ's victory and Satan's end.
I agree with you, Chris. One does not born again unless one is first convicted of his sinful life and puts it away. The Ethiopian eunuch would not have taken baptism of water as soon as possible because seeing the Jesus connection from the passage of Isaiah. Nothing is impossible with God. God has sent the word even before we were born and there is a time and place for man to find it, if he is willing. Publicans and harlots would find salvation sooner that self-opinionated fellows who thinks they know it already.
Law of the Spirit is the Word which was God. ( John 1:1) It was thus from the beginning. So everlasting covenant conferred blessings on man on the basis the Word was with God, where Jesus Christ as the Man component casts his shadow on the covenant. Adam being created in 'our image' recalls the Father Son relationship. The earth the visible world made to appear abides forever because the Law of the Spirit made the unseen worlds made to appear. Faith is the lingua franca between these two worlds. So what shall we make of the ground?
"And theLordGod formed man of the dust of the ground," (2.7). God does a few other things to make his world complete where all his creature comforts are met. "And out of the ground made theLordGod to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."(2:9) "And out of the ground theLordGod formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air."(2:19). The Spirit while organising the blessings to the man addressed both body and spirit. The law of sin and the law of the Spirit respectively rule these two worlds. God also adds his breath which is as personal as one can get. "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.". This signalled that God a Spirit made the law of sin subject to the Law of the Spirit. It is thus the covenant is about equal entities God on one part and Man on the other part where Jesus Christ is the 'only begotten Son' otherwise designated as the Man. So whosoever entered into the Fellowship of God with man under the Law of the Spirit and not under the law of sin.
The Law of Moses addressed the law of sin whereas being born again addressed a new creation where the new heart came under the Law of the Spirit. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."In rejecting Jesus Christ whom God sent to the world the nation of Israel denied the Law of the Spirit.
Thanks Bennymkje. To your comment, "How does one believe what he has not heard?, etc. One matter that is being addressed here with David0921, is that sinful, unregenerate man is unable to express belief or faith, unless he is first born again & then is able to understand & believe. My position is that even in his unregenerate state, man can, under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, be able to receive conviction, repent, and call upon the Lord for forgiveness. Only after such a Work by the Spirit, & in brokenness & humility, can this sinner by faith given from God, be saved, be assured of salvation, & receive a new heart.
You wrote, the "heart is already endowed if one wants to believe", which I understand as the life (the heart) which the LORD has given each one us, though now wracked with sin, is still capable of turning from faithlessness to faith if the desire is there. And I believe that this desire is in union with the Work of God's Spirit; for which reason, most will never come to faith because self is truly on the throne & none shall de-throne it for any reason.
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (v.15)
This enmity is primarily of two contrary laws of which the Law of the Spirit established its glory over the man and woman. A proof of it was in the matter of covering. Glory was their covering and they felt no shame over 'nakedness" "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."(2:25). Law of the Spirit is the Spirit of the unity. Being bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh is symbolised in the statement, "And they shall be one flesh ." The body or the church fitting the head is implied in these verses, "she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man./Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."(2:23-24)
"Thy seed" in the case of Eve has to fall under the provision of the everlasting covenant. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."(1:11) Those which are not planted by the Father showed by their fruits. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?..../Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire./Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."(Matt.7:16-20) The law of sin judged the corrupt tree.
God's provision for 'the seed in itself' falls under the day three. The Spirit makes it clear that the Son shall judge the quality. Jesus Christ as the Word become flesh was present ( John 1:1). Blessings conferred in 1:28 included the seed of Eve, every believer on the basis of faith 'After our likeness'
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
According to the covenant blessings of man depended on the Man component. In disobeying a direct command from God Eve and Adam rejected the covenant as it were. How did the serpent bring another gospel and another Christ to man and woman? She used her natural eyes and carnal wisdom than faith. "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise." She put a premium on carnal wisdom. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, butisearthly, sensual, devilish." (Jas.3:15) . In our times photoShopping Jesus Christ to sell to the masses tells that the imposter church has learned nothing.
A classic example is the manner they have tried to argue Creationism over Darwinism till this date. What is raking up controversy over nothing? Is there any mention of a week in the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis? James refers the wisdom Bible scholars have relied on is devilish.
Eyes of them were opened while their eye of faith closed as it were. The world of the Spirit served a glorious covering and when they came under the carnal wisdom they made provisions for nakedness which was hardly the solution. It has been thus with us and the progress we tout as homo sapiens hardly does us credit.
Hi Chris, May I add Salvation is equipping you to be part of the Fellowship of God with Man. The Man is the Son in the Father Son relationship. The everlasting Covenant is presented in Ge.1 under seven heads so all the blessings are on who is after our image and after our likeness. Whosoever believes in it shall be accounted to him for righteousness. It did not begin with Abraham but from the beginning.
How does one believe what he has not heard? When God breathed into the nostrils of man this faculty has been added to him. He is a living soul. Faith comes by hearing etc.., Rom 10:17 So heart is already endowed if one wants to believe. Those who refuse to come to it are afraid of the light because their deeds are evil.
God has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Ep.1:3-5). "And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her." (Ps.87:5) So we have been counted and all judgment are given to the Son. So whosoever hears the word and believes like the malefactor on the cross are included. So individuals have responsibilty to make the calling and election right. God is not looking to fill in with quality and not quantity of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'. Jesus told' But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."(Matt.15:13) Thus ample opportunities for salvation are given to man. God does not play favourites with anyone. Free will given to man may be exercised for salvation or damnation.
Be careful with the pseudo theory of RAPTURE. Yeah, be careful with the called RAPTURE. First comes the red Dragon- Revelation 12:9. JESUS comes after, after the manifestation of the red Dragon. 2Thessalonians 2:8 - 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth(His Word), and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: > And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having 7 heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Revelation 12:3 combined with Revelation 13:1 and 11 . By the way, the personage of Revelation 13:1- the MAN Beast of sea, he was today with the members of G-7). Be careful or else get ready
I agree David0921, that our hearts are naturally filthy & wicked, & on their own there is no desire to search for or long for cleansing or to be right with God.
You state, that God then has to give sinners (i.e. God's pre-selected sinner) "a NEW HEART"; I assume this is God's first act towards saving a soul. So, only with this New Heart (i.e. now Born Again), "God applies His Salvation" to His selected ones, after which application "we can believe with our whole heart". I hope I have your order correct.
A few questions then arise:
a. how does an unforgiven sinner get a New Heart while still in his filthy state? If a New Heart represents being born again, why does God need to apply His Salvation after the new heart is given?
b. in your other comments (past & present), the matter of repentance and calling upon God to save, hasn't come up (at least I can't remember). Where then do these fit in your belief, as declared in your posts?
c. what would the Work of the Holy Spirit be in each or any of those points you raised (i.e. between the unregenerate state of man right up to expression of Belief and Faith of the born again)?
Do you believe in JESUS, Chris? He is GOD, do you understand?
In fact your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumbling block, not from GOD's perspective. Matthew 16:22-23. He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth. He that comes from above is above all, what he has seen and heard, that he testifies; What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?
In fact I know perfectly the proper grasp of that Scripture which you offer to explain in likeness Genesis 3:1. By the way, my Lord JESUS make it very clear, saying -> Matthew 25:29-30:
29 Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Do you believe in JESUS, Chris? He is GOD, understand?
Note the emphasis in these verses on "believing in the HEART""
Jeremiah 17:9,10
The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the HEART, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
And then there is Romans 3:10-18
There in lies the problem.
We cannot and will not "Believe in the heart" until God gives us a NEW HEART, that is a New Resurrected Soul.
Ezekiel 36:26
A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart.
That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation.
That's fine Oseas. I will discontinue this discussion with you as I perceive that you are unable to, or unwilling to, get a proper grasp of that Scripture which we have offered to explain to you. Rather, to spew out unwarranted, unfactual accusations against others seems to be your main purpose.
I believe David 0921, your paraphrasing of what I wrote is correct, though I would rewrite it more fully as, 'God has done His part and now it's up to us TO RESPOND TO HIS GIFT OF LOVE.' Here then is the problem, which of course I was attempting to draw you to, and that is, your understanding of Salvation is that God does the whole work to make it fully effective & even our response to it must be regarded as contributory to that salvation.
Yet, when I consider God's Part in it, I can only conceive of His Plan, His Provision of the Sacrifice, His Acceptance of that Work if fully completed, & His Receiving of those who have embraced it & been changed by His Spirit. I sense that the Plan you adhere to, stops at His completed Work, & anything subsequent to that completion is treated as 'adding to His Work - adding to our salvation'. If a repentant sinner, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, responds to the Gospel, calling out to a Merciful God for forgiveness, I cannot believe that this sinner has added to the Gospel (even, to God's Plan) in any way at all. The Plan was conceived & fully completed - nothing could be added to it, though some have tried & still try. But to say that when we cry out for mercy & forgiveness is adding to that Plan, this becomes too unbelievable for me.
Therefore, in all of this, I cannot leave out both the convicting Work of God's Spirit ( John 16:7-11) coupled with Romans 10:8-10, "the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation": after hearing the Word, being convicted, confession & believing in what God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone.
1. For the Lord to reveal to you now what spiritual opportunities there are in your workplace; your commute and with your neighbors where you are staying now.
2. That your kids will be able to be established educationally; and possibly to be able to make some extra income if old enough.
3. Any additional money making opportunities will be made clear to you and that possibly the Lord can give you wisdom with either a house rental or working with others to purchase a place and rent it to others; or alternatively if you have a relative that would consider having you stay for a time
4. That God will give you favor with a personal contact for a good used car (dealers tend to really "stick it to you" on prices)
Just talked today to a single mom at work who has 3 sons and I believe 2 other kids; along with kidney stone and fibromyalgia issues. Surely you are not alone; and I suppose you know the Lord. I pray you find interactions that are a blessing to you and also have wisdom to avoid ones that are not.
To add to my earlier comment and your statements regarding repentance and brokenness before God. I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God.
But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us.
I think that some of this may be seen as God is drawing us. But it will certainly be in evidence once God applies His Salvation to our life, in performing the MIRACLE of the New Birth, in giving the one whom He is saving a New Resurrected Soul, ie making them Born Again.
I do believe that God may DRAW those whom He saves in very individual and varied ways. This might be very quickly or very prolonged.
This is all very mysterious and we need to be very careful not to put our spin on God's process. But one thing is certain. All of this is God's work not our work in any sense as God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
All of the glory for every aspect of our salvation belongs to God Alone. And we can take no credit whatsoever for any part of our salvation. Lest we become like the man of Numbers 15.
We should stand amazed that God would have saved us. And asking WHY ME? I deserve only Thy wrath and condemnation.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
Sorry but I do believe we have covered everything there is to cover on this topic for now.
If not you and I certainly others have and it has certainly been covered in the past.
Can you and I agree to disagree peacefully on this?
Thanks for responding,
God bless.
Lillias Trotter wrote that those who suffer most have most to give. Isn't this true? When we suffer for Christ's sake, God gives us strong character--so we can help others going through similar trials. I believe the church is poverty stricken because they have suffered little for Christ.
Suffering itself does not give God's wealth. But, suffering for Christ's sake does. How much have you and I suffered for Christ's sake. The amount of this kind of suffering can measure our usefulness to God--if we apply it to our hearts.
Randy Dimmett
In addition to your responses and questions for me, I also read what you commented to Bennymkje.
There are many differences that seem apparant in the Gospel that we each are proclaiming. We each seem to have a very different understanding of three fundamental doctrines:
1.The Nature of Mankind appart from Salvation.
2. The Nature of God's Justice and Judgment.
3. The Nature of Salvation.
At the heart of these differences, I suspect, is the way that we approach the Scriptures and perhaps even our view of the Bible itself. I know that we have had this discussion before but it never hurts to repeat.
I believe that God Himself is the author of the entire Bible as He used Holy men of old to record precisely every word and phrase and chapter in the entire Bible from the mind and mouth of God. The Bible, in its original languages, is in every aspect the Holy Word of God Himself.
I believe that the Bible is God's Law Book for Mankind and that the Gospel of God's Judgment and Salvation is found in some aspect in every chapter and verse of the entire Bible. And we must be ready to test any doctrine or practice that we hold against anything and everything that God declares in the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
I believe that we must approach and interpret the Bible using ONLY the principles that God declares in the Bible. Some of these are:
1. We must compare Scripture with Scripture apart from any concept or idea that may come out of man's mind.
2. All scripture is profitable for for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
3. Christ, the author of the entire Bible, spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not. He did this both to reveal and to hide truth.
4. God has a time table for revealing truth from the Bible, particularly as we approach the end.
5. And most importantly, God Himself must open our heart and mind to give us understanding.
May I ask, What do believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?
Psalms 27:9 KJV
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation."
Respond: Psalms 27:9 KJV
I pray and have faith the land I'm living in USA will be replenished flourishing of God goodness of his earth and resources .
Respond: 1 Peter 5:7 KJV
And Jesus Christ has been blessing me to have salvation, in all aspects and areas in my life I have been in and when I go to receive money , food. Clothes and many other things that the world itself could not contain.
Salvation- The act of saving preseveration ,preservation from destruction, danger and great calamity.
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
"Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you." 1 Peter 5:7 KJV
"Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life."
God willed the man "in our image" in heavenly places but he was formed out of dust of the ground. So curse of the ground 'for thy sake' is not the general rule but for man who has sinned. God's blessings do not change for those who are in Christ Jesus. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Ro.8:1) Ground is cursed on account of Adam,- and he represents all those who are under the law of sin and death. Death refers to the soul as part of the divine injunction. "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."(2:17b)
"In the day" refers to the day decreed for the Son. Adam is created after our image and God has left all judgment to his Son.. This difference we can illustrate from Simon Peter before and after Jesus made him fisher of men. "Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing." ( Luke 5:5) What kind of work is it that you spent your day and night for your livelihood and at the end of it you are still zero? It is the curse on Adam working. We have Jesus assuring his disciples, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."(Matt.18:18). Here we see the Law of the Spirit working so blessings of the Man component is still in tact.
We see the force of the law of sin working in vv.16-17
"And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."(v.18)
"And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."(2:16) Here we have Adam naming the woman thereby establishing part of the curse on Eve. Elizabeth addresses Mary in harmony with the curse on Eve,"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"( Luke 1:43). Does this make Mary the mother of God?
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
What I am considering here is how Christ forever is going to be in His glorified body; hence not only being the "first of the firstfruits" as it were ( 1 Cor 15:23) but in a sense eternally being displayed as perfect God and perfect man. He is going to bear the marks of His crucifixion on His body forever; no doubt painless for Him but an everlasting reminder to us what it cost Him to do this in our place.
As I alluded to in my earlier post; God's plan for man changes from the Edenic garden to a city of gold; from man ruling over the earth to Christ and God leading with a rod of iron; and destroying Satan's Antichrist and armies upon His return.
In general it can be said that God never intended to "lord it over his subjects" if we are to use a common phrase. He is ruling and reigning with us ( Rev. 20:6; 2 Tim. 2:12 and many other verses). David is also going to rule in the Millennial Kingdom ( Hosea 3:5). Christ will still act as impartial judge as ultimately arbitrated by the Father (see Isaiah 11:3 and 4). Then God Himself will rule in eternity ( 1 Cor. 15:24).
We could say that all of human history is as a stage play-albeit in real time and real suffering. It serves to glorify God and of course He is victorious over all foes as He is Creator and they created beings under His control. Some things ( Deut. 29:29) are mysteries
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Introduction: Genesis 3:15 The ball is rolling....
The prophesied redemption in this verse signifies in time and space the plan no doubt formulated in eternity past for Christ to come and die for the sins of man; and to be Resurrected thus being victorious over Satan with a fatal wound; as it were. We have no idea how much time there was before this between Satan's creation and fall ( Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28) and his appearance here; no doubt he had time to come up with his master plan of deception and probably had some idea that man was going to be put in his place of authority and eventually be exalted to rulership to take over his position in a way. We don't specifically know this; and it is possible that he had to wing it after he saw man being created. Nonetheless; he likely had ample time to consider how to attempt to reverse his fate after being removed from his original place as a sort of music worship leader in heaven. This of course led to a prophecy of his ultimate defeat which is also seen with the fatal wound of his Antichrist beast in both Revelation 13 and Zechariah 11:17 as well as his eventual confinement to the bottomless pit and then the lake of fire.
Christ's plan was then set forth; which would have him live as the perfect man; the "second Adam" ( 1 Cor. 15:45-49); die for us and Ressurect.
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,a
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross.
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
I am specifically examining this passage in light of Christ's coexistence with God the Father and also the concept of positional changes in light of His substitutionary atonement and exaltation to rule over the earth as King of Kings; Lord of Lords.
Introduction: As usual; I am "winging it" here-albeit our church recently studied this entire book and currently Sunday school is focusing on Phillippians 1 in a deeper analysis. The overarching point here on having the "mind of Christ" would appear to be thinking on all things that are in Phillipians 4:7-8 that are "true"; "honorable"; etc which also was to reflect Paul's life and teachings as an example. It also should be examined as to being humbled then highly exalted; we suffer for a time then are glorified and in His presence; ruling and reigning with Him. While we suffer on earth; we are also "seated in heavenly places" ( Eph. 2:6).
If we backtrack to the dawn of human history (for those who truly believe that) we don't see any indication at the time of Adam and Eve's creation that there was any plan at work for Christ to actually rule on earth with a rod of iron; conquering his enemies; etc. Of course there was no sin at first and therefore such actions would not be necessary. Nonetheless; in Genesis 3:15 we see the theme of Christ's victory and Satan's end.
"Cursed is the ground for thy sake."
Law of the Spirit is the Word which was God. ( John 1:1) It was thus from the beginning. So everlasting covenant conferred blessings on man on the basis the Word was with God, where Jesus Christ as the Man component casts his shadow on the covenant. Adam being created in 'our image' recalls the Father Son relationship. The earth the visible world made to appear abides forever because the Law of the Spirit made the unseen worlds made to appear. Faith is the lingua franca between these two worlds. So what shall we make of the ground?
"And theLordGod formed man of the dust of the ground," (2.7). God does a few other things to make his world complete where all his creature comforts are met. "And out of the ground made theLordGod to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."(2:9) "And out of the ground theLordGod formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air."(2:19). The Spirit while organising the blessings to the man addressed both body and spirit. The law of sin and the law of the Spirit respectively rule these two worlds. God also adds his breath which is as personal as one can get. "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.". This signalled that God a Spirit made the law of sin subject to the Law of the Spirit. It is thus the covenant is about equal entities God on one part and Man on the other part where Jesus Christ is the 'only begotten Son' otherwise designated as the Man. So whosoever entered into the Fellowship of God with man under the Law of the Spirit and not under the law of sin.
The Law of Moses addressed the law of sin whereas being born again addressed a new creation where the new heart came under the Law of the Spirit. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."In rejecting Jesus Christ whom God sent to the world the nation of Israel denied the Law of the Spirit.
You wrote, the "heart is already endowed if one wants to believe", which I understand as the life (the heart) which the LORD has given each one us, though now wracked with sin, is still capable of turning from faithlessness to faith if the desire is there. And I believe that this desire is in union with the Work of God's Spirit; for which reason, most will never come to faith because self is truly on the throne & none shall de-throne it for any reason.
Please read this line "God is not looking to fill in with quality and not quantity of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'."
as
God is not looking to fill in with quantity but quality of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'.
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (v.15)
This enmity is primarily of two contrary laws of which the Law of the Spirit established its glory over the man and woman. A proof of it was in the matter of covering. Glory was their covering and they felt no shame over 'nakedness" "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."(2:25). Law of the Spirit is the Spirit of the unity. Being bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh is symbolised in the statement, "And they shall be one flesh ." The body or the church fitting the head is implied in these verses, "she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man./Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."(2:23-24)
"Thy seed" in the case of Eve has to fall under the provision of the everlasting covenant. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."(1:11) Those which are not planted by the Father showed by their fruits. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?..../Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire./Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."(Matt.7:16-20) The law of sin judged the corrupt tree.
God's provision for 'the seed in itself' falls under the day three. The Spirit makes it clear that the Son shall judge the quality. Jesus Christ as the Word become flesh was present ( John 1:1). Blessings conferred in 1:28 included the seed of Eve, every believer on the basis of faith 'After our likeness'
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
According to the covenant blessings of man depended on the Man component. In disobeying a direct command from God Eve and Adam rejected the covenant as it were. How did the serpent bring another gospel and another Christ to man and woman? She used her natural eyes and carnal wisdom than faith. "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise." She put a premium on carnal wisdom. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, butisearthly, sensual, devilish." (Jas.3:15) . In our times photoShopping Jesus Christ to sell to the masses tells that the imposter church has learned nothing.
A classic example is the manner they have tried to argue Creationism over Darwinism till this date. What is raking up controversy over nothing? Is there any mention of a week in the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis? James refers the wisdom Bible scholars have relied on is devilish.
Eyes of them were opened while their eye of faith closed as it were. The world of the Spirit served a glorious covering and when they came under the carnal wisdom they made provisions for nakedness which was hardly the solution. It has been thus with us and the progress we tout as homo sapiens hardly does us credit.
How does one believe what he has not heard? When God breathed into the nostrils of man this faculty has been added to him. He is a living soul. Faith comes by hearing etc.., Rom 10:17 So heart is already endowed if one wants to believe. Those who refuse to come to it are afraid of the light because their deeds are evil.
God has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Ep.1:3-5). "And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her." (Ps.87:5) So we have been counted and all judgment are given to the Son. So whosoever hears the word and believes like the malefactor on the cross are included. So individuals have responsibilty to make the calling and election right. God is not looking to fill in with quality and not quantity of 'the trees having 'seed in itself'. Jesus told' But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."(Matt.15:13) Thus ample opportunities for salvation are given to man. God does not play favourites with anyone. Free will given to man may be exercised for salvation or damnation.
Be careful with the pseudo theory of RAPTURE. Yeah, be careful with the called RAPTURE. First comes the red Dragon- Revelation 12:9. JESUS comes after, after the manifestation of the red Dragon. 2Thessalonians 2:8 - 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth(His Word), and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: > And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having 7 heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Revelation 12:3 combined with Revelation 13:1 and 11 . By the way, the personage of Revelation 13:1- the MAN Beast of sea, he was today with the members of G-7). Be careful or else get ready
You state, that God then has to give sinners (i.e. God's pre-selected sinner) "a NEW HEART"; I assume this is God's first act towards saving a soul. So, only with this New Heart (i.e. now Born Again), "God applies His Salvation" to His selected ones, after which application "we can believe with our whole heart". I hope I have your order correct.
A few questions then arise:
a. how does an unforgiven sinner get a New Heart while still in his filthy state? If a New Heart represents being born again, why does God need to apply His Salvation after the new heart is given?
b. in your other comments (past & present), the matter of repentance and calling upon God to save, hasn't come up (at least I can't remember). Where then do these fit in your belief, as declared in your posts?
c. what would the Work of the Holy Spirit be in each or any of those points you raised (i.e. between the unregenerate state of man right up to expression of Belief and Faith of the born again)?
Matthew 28:19
John 10:30
Colossians 2:8-9
Hebrews 1:8
1 John 5:20
John 10:30
etc
Try searching 'Godhead'
Do you believe in JESUS, Chris? He is GOD, do you understand?
In fact your thinking is from a human perspective, a stumbling block, not from GOD's perspective. Matthew 16:22-23. He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth. He that comes from above is above all, what he has seen and heard, that he testifies; What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?
In fact I know perfectly the proper grasp of that Scripture which you offer to explain in likeness Genesis 3:1. By the way, my Lord JESUS make it very clear, saying -> Matthew 25:29-30:
29 Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 Cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Do you believe in JESUS, Chris? He is GOD, understand?
You quoted Romans 10-8-10.
Note the emphasis in these verses on "believing in the HEART""
Jeremiah 17:9,10
The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the HEART, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
And then there is Romans 3:10-18
There in lies the problem.
We cannot and will not "Believe in the heart" until God gives us a NEW HEART, that is a New Resurrected Soul.
Ezekiel 36:26
A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart.
That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation.
Yet, when I consider God's Part in it, I can only conceive of His Plan, His Provision of the Sacrifice, His Acceptance of that Work if fully completed, & His Receiving of those who have embraced it & been changed by His Spirit. I sense that the Plan you adhere to, stops at His completed Work, & anything subsequent to that completion is treated as 'adding to His Work - adding to our salvation'. If a repentant sinner, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, responds to the Gospel, calling out to a Merciful God for forgiveness, I cannot believe that this sinner has added to the Gospel (even, to God's Plan) in any way at all. The Plan was conceived & fully completed - nothing could be added to it, though some have tried & still try. But to say that when we cry out for mercy & forgiveness is adding to that Plan, this becomes too unbelievable for me.
Therefore, in all of this, I cannot leave out both the convicting Work of God's Spirit ( John 16:7-11) coupled with Romans 10:8-10, "the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation": after hearing the Word, being convicted, confession & believing in what God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone.
I will ask for these things:
1. For the Lord to reveal to you now what spiritual opportunities there are in your workplace; your commute and with your neighbors where you are staying now.
2. That your kids will be able to be established educationally; and possibly to be able to make some extra income if old enough.
3. Any additional money making opportunities will be made clear to you and that possibly the Lord can give you wisdom with either a house rental or working with others to purchase a place and rent it to others; or alternatively if you have a relative that would consider having you stay for a time
4. That God will give you favor with a personal contact for a good used car (dealers tend to really "stick it to you" on prices)
Just talked today to a single mom at work who has 3 sons and I believe 2 other kids; along with kidney stone and fibromyalgia issues. Surely you are not alone; and I suppose you know the Lord. I pray you find interactions that are a blessing to you and also have wisdom to avoid ones that are not.
I will read over your responses to Chris and get back with you perhaps tonight or tomorrow.
I just come off a road trip and got a bucket list to deal with.
God bless.