The short answer to your question is God did not pay for the sins of everyone.
He paid only for the sins of those whom He chose to save. God calls these the Elect of God.
They are not elect because of any inherent goodness or worthiness within them as we read in Romans 3:10-18 and similar passages. They are not elect because they are more likely to respond to the Gospel than any one else. All mankind is DEAD in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1.
God works in the Heart of those whom He is saving to CAUSE them to respond. And He gives them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. It is a true MIRACLE of God. It is all the MERCY of God as He does 100% of the work to save His Elect and they enter into His Rest.
Romans 9:15,16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So what must we do to be saved? The answer is: We can do nothing! But we can cry to God for mercy as He commands us to do. Like Publican: " Lord have mercy upon me a sinner", in the very Real Hope that God might save us.
Joel 2:12-14
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
My opinion is that the expression sons of God in Genesis is figurative. It shows that people who obey God's commandments are called His sons. In the begining sons of God were the descedants of Seth. But as they were mixing with the rest of sinful people getting married to their daughters, those daughters made them turn away from God and eventually by the time of Noah only 8 of them remained righteous.
In John 8:42-44 Jesus says to the Jews, "Ye (the Jews) do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. ..." So everyone who does the lusts of devil is a son of devil and one who follows the commandements of God is a son of God. This is how I understand it.
About those sons of God being fallen angels, this idea can not fit in what Jesus said about us living in Heaven like angels and not getting married. Angels have no sex although the masculine sex is used for them. In Job in all those verses you mentioned, in the Septuagint is written angels of God, not sons of God.
You wrote "So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life."
Question. God has paid the price of ALL people's iniquity. And if faith is a product of God applying salvation to their life, then why not everyone believes?
"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake."
Cursed was the ground for Adam's sake and it only applies for his sons. The Spirit refers to the fall of man, "Cursed is the ground for thy sake;" The usage of 'anymore' is significant. What has gone forth at that moment out of the mouth of God shall continue its work so when God commanded the Law to Moses it is for the nations under the curse,'for thy sake'.. For those who are justified by faith their works the fruits prove they are freed from condemnation. (Ro.8:1). "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."(Gal.4:7)
"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."(8:22) What is the significance of 'and day and night shall not cease" The Spirit is referring the everlasting covenant. God's response to smelling sweet savor was in context of the covenant . The Day decreed for Man . "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."(Ge.1:14-15)
"lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth" is the way the Word declares the glory of God. It is under day four.
"And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:"
The earth foreshadows the ground from which man was taken and to which he shall return. It encapsulates the world of the flesh and blood. It is diametrically opposite to the world of the Spirit from which the law of sin has been excised, surgically as it were. So it meant those who made a covenant with God. In short the Spirit explains the significance of Noah's sacrifice
"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice./And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself."(Ps.50:5-6)"
Sacrifice basically involving animals refer to the world where the law of sin rules. It is for those who also ran. The slain Lamb before the foundation is already set in the divine Will. The world of the Lamb of God is made to appear in the fulness of time so whatever sacrifice is to be set in direct frame of his Advent. "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." (Ps.40:8) Doing the perfect will of God is what the everlasting covenant enjoins whosoever want to be part of the Fellowship of God with Man. So he as a living service has died to world of sin. Noah as the double for Jesus Christ connects the holy family to the heavenly places. "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."(8:4) After his likeness Noah is already in the company of saints, foreknown and blessed in his Son.
The Spirit gives us the life of Noah according to the flesh. So he would be a husbandman and get drunk and when he comes out of his drunken sleep he shall curse, "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."(9:25). Blessings as well as curse shall continue in the earth. This indicates law of the sin is among the nations.
Sorry for getting into your conversation with Chris, but I would like to ask you a question. Suppose you are in jail for some reason and somebody comes by and offers you to exchange positions with you. You out of the jail and him inside the jail in your position. If you don't accept that offer, are you still getting out of jail?. Another example. Suppose you owe somebody some money and you hane not got any money to pay back. A stanger comes by and offers to pay your debt. If you don't accept his offer and do not want him to pay for you your debt, are you free of your debt?
Have a good thought on that brother. It will give you the answer to your questions.
The hermeneutic, i.e. the principles by which we interpret the Bible, will indeed determine our understanding of the Bible, The Word of God, the Gospel.
This is why, if we hope to come to truth, it is so critical that our hermeneutic be defined and governed SOLELY and COMPLETELY by principles that God Himself declares in His Word, and NOT those that come from the mind and wisdom of man.
1 Corinthians 2 and particularly 1 Corinthians 2:13,14 says it clearly.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Bible is NOT like any other book and we cannot approach the Bible like we would any book by a human author.
So the more that we allow our own ideas of how we are to interpret Scripture and are not guided SOLELY by the principles that God lays down in His Word, the further from truth we will be.
"And the ark rested in the seventh month...upon the mountains of Ararat."
This rest is what we see in the vision of St John." lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,"(Re.14:1). The body of believers blessed under the provisions of the everlasting covenant are gathered as Noah was in the ark, waiting for Zion to be open. "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever./And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."(15:7-8)
Noah waiting for God's permission is how we ought to consider ourselves while we are in our physical bodies. "And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;/The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped." (vv.1-2)
With the outpouring of the Spirit events in heaven and earth are under restraint and we are to rest in the many promises of God.
8:15-16
"And God spake unto Noah, saying,/Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. "
"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men."(Ps.115:16) The earth to which Noah and family went is different than what the angel showed St John. The saints having the name of the Father are set in heavenly places. We are dead and also are alive. Thus we have two worlds to live simultaneously. " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."(Col.3:1-4) St Paul tells our bodies are to living sacrifices and not as poster boys for 'prosperity'. "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
Jesus Christ the Redeemer, the Good Shepherd represents His creation as well. For this reason at the end of the Book of Job we have this line, "Then said theLord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:/And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"( Jonah 4:10-11) God's Salvation plan includes man after the likeness of Man and also his fellow creatures.
On one hand you have this verse, "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth." They are delivered into the hands of man. On the other hand, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." (9:3). Man is of God is made wisdom unto us. (1 Co.1:30)
Eating meat is an indication of man's sinful nature. God's commandment is to be treated as the saying of Jesus on divorce, "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."(Matt.19:8)
"And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." (v.1)
The Spirit repeats the blessings noted in the covenant to indicate the heaven and the earth are still the same as was in the day God created them. In order to emphasise the day that is decreed for the Son the same formula 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish' is used,
The quality of the day is fixed and it is as God willed and how the Son shall fulfill it. The only blot on the landscape was the burden of sin and the remedy God exacted from the sons of Adam. His creation well knew the toll that was laid on them. St Paul tells how man's sin did affect them. "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."(Ro.8:19-23)
In vv.2-3 the Spirit uses 'fear' in association with sin introduced into the world by one man's disobedience. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."(Ro.5:19)
In order to place this element of fear in proper perspective let us consider their earnest expectation. "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."(8:21). Adam's stewardship did not disappear with sin. Sons of Adam and of God are all alike required to hope. "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."(8:23)
If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?
( Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty)
God will judge the dead by their works.
Revelation 20:12.
They are judged by a righteous God and they are Judged in that manner because they WERE offered a sacrifice that they rejected and a justified judgement felt on them.
I will just say what Scripture tells us we must do. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy, or our sins will remain, not forgiven, blotted out, or paid for unless we believe, and come to repentance as we are commanded to do. That only comes from hearing the Gospel of Jesus, the word of God. As we see in Acts 2.
I do appreciate your comments David0921 and I guess this would now take us back to our old discussion on biblical hermeneutics. Clearly, yours & mine are very different and even at this fundamental, yet essential matter of how we should read, understand & dissect the Bible so that it is meaningful & confirmed in our hearts, will be the one that can never bring us to agreement.
In my view, and taking your advice on board, I believe that I do allow "the Bible to be its own interpreter" as I compare Scripture with Scripture, the Covenants, the Work of the Cross, etc. But it seems that we are, maybe not even understanding, what some of the verses are actually stating, which then leads us on to our own understanding & belief. Even the Romans 9:13-16 example you gave, to prove your point, I believe by my little exegesis to you, doesn't actually prove anything. Or the Joel 2:12-14 passage: maybe some exegesis from you on these passages might reveal how you are understanding it in light of our discussion, simply because I can't see the connection.
And not only with this important subject of Salvation (i.e. whether we are regenerated before being saved or after), we will very likely disagree on other matters (e.g. are the prophecies concerning Israel's future - into the Great Tribulation, of wars, of Christ's intervention, of their part in His Millennial rule, etc., still to be taken literally or simply transposed to the Church? If they are to be transposed, then what do we do with the other prophecies? Should we reinterpret them as well to suit our preferences? Then, how literally are we supposed to read the Bible? All these strange questions surface, hence my biblical understanding is to accept what is given, yet understanding what the book/chapter/verses are actually referring to and their connection to other verses relevant to it). I only share this last paragraph as a further example - but not for discussion on this particular thread. Every blessing.
We know Seth is the line that goes all the way to the Messiah Jesus therefore when Seth had Enosh, this line was the only one walking and calling on the name of God. We see Enoch and Noah walked with God but by the time of Noah all had corrupted themselves, whether they had created false gods, we are not told but their imaginations were evil.
I may have a different understanding of the sons of God, we see in Luke 3:38 that Adam was called the son of God because he was a direct creation of God, he had no human father. Jesus is the Son of God and through Jesus, we can become sons and daughters of God, but I have not found where men are called sons of God.
If we take the sons of Seth as sons of God, would we not have to take the daughters of men the daughters of Cain or all the other men who did not call on the name of God? They all are from Adam and Eve would not all the daughters be fair? The flood was 1656 or 2256 years from Adam, and it says when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them. So, this was long before the flood.
We see in the Bible the sons of God are referring to angels as we see in Job 1:6-12Job 2:1 and Job 38:7. I have not found where men were called sons of God until after the Messiah Jesus and those who believe in Him can become sons of God.
We know there are fallen angels like Satan and others on this earth but there are other angels God has locked in chains of darkness I suppose is the bottomless pit until judgment, 2 Peter 2:4Jude 1:6. My understanding is these are the sons of God who corrupted and polluted God's creation that He destroyed all but eight. We see this happened again after the flood as told in Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also, after that, as we see in Scripture some tall as cedars, Amos 2:9.
I'm not going to reproduce what I've said already or provide more verses. But please consider this.
God's Law declares that the wages of sin is eternal DEATH. And God obligates Himself to uphold His Law. God cannot ignore His Law and just decide not to punish us for our sin.
So in order to have a people for Himself for eternity and to demonstrate to mankind and to principalities and powers in heavenly places the justice, the mercy, the patience, the long suffering, the love of God; God in Christ chose to pay the full penalty demanded by His Law for those dirty rotten sinners that He chose to save. Sinners that apart from God's working in their life and the MIRACLE of the New Birth in their life would continue in their rebellion against Him, because we want what we want and we love our sin.
God's elective program is God's business. Not our business. And God makes it very clear that His Elect have no more inclination to humble themselves and turn to Him with a broken and contrite heart than any unsaved sinner who continues in their rebellion.
And God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
The drug addict seeking His pleasure in every immoral way possible could be one of God's elect just as readily as the most upstanding citizen of this world. And God must perform the same MIRACLE of salvation in either if they are to be saved.
We should be humbling ourselves before the Word of God, not trying to redesign His Salvation program, and praising Him for His mercy that He would save any one of us at so great a cost to Himself.
I've said this very inadequately and very incompletely.
Yes, He only drove them out to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and live for ever in a sinful condition. But He didn't remove His presence from them. In Genesis 4:26 says, "... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." or "then begun men to be called with the name of the Lord" What does that mean? In Genesis 6:2 it says, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.". The scriptures call the descenants of Seth as "sons of God" while calling all the other as "children of men"
Let us see some cases in the Book of Acts concerning people who believed in Jesus. Say Paul. Was he regenerated when he saw Jesus on his way to Damascus? On the contrary he was on a mission to jail the christians there. So what happened to him and believed in Jesus? Answer. Jesus' appearance to him. Second case, Cornelius and his friends. Were they regenerated when Peter came and preached to them? What made them believe? Because of the appearance of the angel Cornelius saw when fasting. Next case That Roman in Cyprus. Was he regenerated? Until a time he couldn't make up his mind who was right, Paul or that sorcerer. What opened his (spiritual) eyes and believed? The loss of sight of that sorcerer after Paul's command. So we see that many times God acts in specific ways to assist people to believe in Him. Recalling how God helped me to believe in Jesus, well, I had a client who was a new born christian. Sometime he started talking to me about Jesus and salvation. I had my beliefs at that time like all people in the world. Maybe God exists maybe no, maybe there is afterlife, maybe not. And I was resisting to him a lot. But what made me keep discussing with him about Jesus was a very joyful feeling I was always having as we were talking about these things. I was feeling joy all the time. And I kept going back and talk until God found an opening in my hert and did all the good work. If not, probably I would be bored after the second time and ended such conversations. So you see joy was the specific action of God to me.
So instead of saying "regeneration" maybe we can say "a specific action of God to those He knows that will believe" to help them believe? Think about it.
Finally in Jeremiah 23:29 says, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" God's word is like a hammer that breaks a rock. What is a rock? it is a stonny heart, an unregenerated heart, isn't it?
Your knowledge of the Greek language is appreciated, I agree that a gate would probably have been mentioned when He drove them out. He drove them out, but they were still in His presence as we see when Cain was driven out from God's face and the presence of God, Genesis 4:14-16. God has given us what we need in only 6 chapters covering 1656 years from Adam to the flood or in the Septuagint 2256 years.
I have been following this discussion I would just ask this, I believe your understanding is everyone is predetermined to be saved or not. What kind of justice is that and why would there even be a judgment? 2 Cor. 5:10 God knows the end from the beginning, and we have been given the way to eternal life with Him and His Son Jesus Christ.
When all is over we read in Rev. 20:11-15, is the final judgment, if our final destination is predetermined and we do not have a choice to accept and believe or reject God's word and the gospel of Christ that God sent His Son to die for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and is setting on the right hand of God that gives us our only hope of salvation and eternal life, why and what for are we going to be judged if we had no obligation to believe and be obedient.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. We must answer the call and believe to be saved, believing is on us, God's mercy and grace are what saves us. God wants all to be saved but not all will accept His gift that we do not deserve or cannot earn by anything we can do but believe.
Well, it says that the garden or paradise was located in Eden (or Edem) which was to the east (of Israel, I suppose). East of Eden was an old movie and usually people have that in mind.
The word paradise does not have the meaning of a walled area in grk. But looking it up on the net I found out that the original word comes from ancient Persian and means "an enclosure". Later on it was used to describe the "walled gardens" of the persian kings. Later on it entered other languages like grk, Hebrew and Aramaic with the meaning of "walled royal park or gardens" and finally it ended up meaning a beautiful place in modern times.
In the OT the Septuagint always uses the word paradise where the Hebrew text says garden. In the NT we see it in 3 cases. It was used by Jesus when He was talking to the thief that was crucified next to him. So here obviously it means a beautiful place in Heaven, Luke 23:43. Also by Paul when he said that the Lord brought him to Paradise, 2 Corinthians 12:4. And by John in Rev 2:7..Paul and John probably used paradise instead of garden as they had in mind the Septuagint text which was the only OT text in use at that time by the christian gentiles and the grk speaking Hebrews.
Was the original garden in Eden an enclosure?. In Genesis 3:23 God sends the Cherubims to guard the garden and prevent Adam and Eve entering. It says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.". If it was walled it would mention a gate, a door, something, wouldn't it? But who really knows? GBU
God has set angels as the Word from heaven commands. St John says that he heard the number. "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men./ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." (Re.9:14-16) The multiples of 2 refers to heaven and the earth. By the same token Noah's age before the flood is given where both the Father and the Son are in perfect agreement. After our image and after our likeness. As with Enoch he also walked with God. In terms of the World of the Spirit 'he was not. Because God took him.
What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establishes the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled his ministry he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadows, of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under which the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25) As in the case of Enoch he also walked with God so death only refers to his flesh.
"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.
Hello to you Noah , I too have felt that way at times in my life . Usually it has been when I have been neglecting my relationship with God and Jesus , feeling a bit disconnected from them . When this happens it is always our fault . God never neglects us or wanders away from us , only we do that to Him . You need to reconnect , best way is to read your Bible every day without fail and to pray to Him every day , always giving thanks for all the good things in your life . Try to see Him every day , in His creation and in your own life and the lives of others , refresh yourself by reading about the promises He has made to those that wait patiently for Him and His Son . This world is hard and cold but , we have the comfort of knowing that we are never alone , Christ walks with us to keep our feet on the straight and narrow . This world will pass but the love of God and of Jesus will always surround us and we shall live with them in God's Kingdom on earth when Christ returns . The earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord and we can be there to see it all . Look forward to the great things to come and set your heart on them . You will be back on the right path soon I'm sure , may God bless you .
Again thank you for your responses. I'm going to get somewhat personal here so please forgive me for that.
I see in your comments a reluctance to allow the Bible to be its own interpreter resulting in an understanding which circumvents what God is teaching in these and many other verses regarding the condition of mankind, the nature of God's justice and judgment, the nature of Christ's atonement, and God's sovereign mercy and grace demonstrated in his election program.
And as a result, creating a gospel where mankind is in charge and not God ALONE.
I hope you will take GiGi's advice and prayerfully continue to examine your understanding, allowing the Bible to be its OWN INTERPRETER. As I and we all need to do regarding any belief that we hold, without introducing the bias of our own wisdom and the way we might like things to be.
The dry land where Noah tended his crops recall his life of the flesh which is his second phase. In order to distinguish these two halves we have the age given. "And Noah did according unto all that theLordcommanded him./And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth." What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establish the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadow of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under whick the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25)
"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"
Here the drunkenness of Noah runs parallel with the deep sleep of Adam. As soon as he comes out of it he is aware what his younger son had done. The Spirit is putting emphasis on the flesh in the latter half.
"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.
The short answer to your question is God did not pay for the sins of everyone.
He paid only for the sins of those whom He chose to save. God calls these the Elect of God.
They are not elect because of any inherent goodness or worthiness within them as we read in Romans 3:10-18 and similar passages. They are not elect because they are more likely to respond to the Gospel than any one else. All mankind is DEAD in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1.
God works in the Heart of those whom He is saving to CAUSE them to respond. And He gives them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. It is a true MIRACLE of God. It is all the MERCY of God as He does 100% of the work to save His Elect and they enter into His Rest.
Romans 9:15,16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So what must we do to be saved? The answer is: We can do nothing! But we can cry to God for mercy as He commands us to do. Like Publican: " Lord have mercy upon me a sinner", in the very Real Hope that God might save us.
Joel 2:12-14
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
My opinion is that the expression sons of God in Genesis is figurative. It shows that people who obey God's commandments are called His sons. In the begining sons of God were the descedants of Seth. But as they were mixing with the rest of sinful people getting married to their daughters, those daughters made them turn away from God and eventually by the time of Noah only 8 of them remained righteous.
In John 8:42-44 Jesus says to the Jews, "Ye (the Jews) do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. ..." So everyone who does the lusts of devil is a son of devil and one who follows the commandements of God is a son of God. This is how I understand it.
About those sons of God being fallen angels, this idea can not fit in what Jesus said about us living in Heaven like angels and not getting married. Angels have no sex although the masculine sex is used for them. In Job in all those verses you mentioned, in the Septuagint is written angels of God, not sons of God.
You wrote "So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life."
Question. God has paid the price of ALL people's iniquity. And if faith is a product of God applying salvation to their life, then why not everyone believes?
"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake."
Cursed was the ground for Adam's sake and it only applies for his sons. The Spirit refers to the fall of man, "Cursed is the ground for thy sake;" The usage of 'anymore' is significant. What has gone forth at that moment out of the mouth of God shall continue its work so when God commanded the Law to Moses it is for the nations under the curse,'for thy sake'.. For those who are justified by faith their works the fruits prove they are freed from condemnation. (Ro.8:1). "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."(Gal.4:7)
"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."(8:22) What is the significance of 'and day and night shall not cease" The Spirit is referring the everlasting covenant. God's response to smelling sweet savor was in context of the covenant . The Day decreed for Man . "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."(Ge.1:14-15)
"lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth" is the way the Word declares the glory of God. It is under day four.
"And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:"
The earth foreshadows the ground from which man was taken and to which he shall return. It encapsulates the world of the flesh and blood. It is diametrically opposite to the world of the Spirit from which the law of sin has been excised, surgically as it were. So it meant those who made a covenant with God. In short the Spirit explains the significance of Noah's sacrifice
"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice./And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself."(Ps.50:5-6)"
Sacrifice basically involving animals refer to the world where the law of sin rules. It is for those who also ran. The slain Lamb before the foundation is already set in the divine Will. The world of the Lamb of God is made to appear in the fulness of time so whatever sacrifice is to be set in direct frame of his Advent. "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." (Ps.40:8) Doing the perfect will of God is what the everlasting covenant enjoins whosoever want to be part of the Fellowship of God with Man. So he as a living service has died to world of sin. Noah as the double for Jesus Christ connects the holy family to the heavenly places. "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."(8:4) After his likeness Noah is already in the company of saints, foreknown and blessed in his Son.
The Spirit gives us the life of Noah according to the flesh. So he would be a husbandman and get drunk and when he comes out of his drunken sleep he shall curse, "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."(9:25). Blessings as well as curse shall continue in the earth. This indicates law of the sin is among the nations.
We did have a good time away. Haven't done that for a while, so we are thankful we could do this.
We are busy with the remodel worker this week. I will get back to you soon.
Today is a busy day with the remodeling so I will get back to you soon/
Sorry for getting into your conversation with Chris, but I would like to ask you a question. Suppose you are in jail for some reason and somebody comes by and offers you to exchange positions with you. You out of the jail and him inside the jail in your position. If you don't accept that offer, are you still getting out of jail?. Another example. Suppose you owe somebody some money and you hane not got any money to pay back. A stanger comes by and offers to pay your debt. If you don't accept his offer and do not want him to pay for you your debt, are you free of your debt?
Have a good thought on that brother. It will give you the answer to your questions.
The hermeneutic, i.e. the principles by which we interpret the Bible, will indeed determine our understanding of the Bible, The Word of God, the Gospel.
This is why, if we hope to come to truth, it is so critical that our hermeneutic be defined and governed SOLELY and COMPLETELY by principles that God Himself declares in His Word, and NOT those that come from the mind and wisdom of man.
1 Corinthians 2 and particularly 1 Corinthians 2:13,14 says it clearly.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Bible is NOT like any other book and we cannot approach the Bible like we would any book by a human author.
So the more that we allow our own ideas of how we are to interpret Scripture and are not guided SOLELY by the principles that God lays down in His Word, the further from truth we will be.
"And the ark rested in the seventh month...upon the mountains of Ararat."
This rest is what we see in the vision of St John." lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand,"(Re.14:1). The body of believers blessed under the provisions of the everlasting covenant are gathered as Noah was in the ark, waiting for Zion to be open. "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever./And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."(15:7-8)
Noah waiting for God's permission is how we ought to consider ourselves while we are in our physical bodies. "And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;/The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped." (vv.1-2)
With the outpouring of the Spirit events in heaven and earth are under restraint and we are to rest in the many promises of God.
8:15-16
"And God spake unto Noah, saying,/Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee. "
"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men."(Ps.115:16) The earth to which Noah and family went is different than what the angel showed St John. The saints having the name of the Father are set in heavenly places. We are dead and also are alive. Thus we have two worlds to live simultaneously. " For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."(Col.3:1-4) St Paul tells our bodies are to living sacrifices and not as poster boys for 'prosperity'. "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
Jesus Christ the Redeemer, the Good Shepherd represents His creation as well. For this reason at the end of the Book of Job we have this line, "Then said theLord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:/And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"( Jonah 4:10-11) God's Salvation plan includes man after the likeness of Man and also his fellow creatures.
On one hand you have this verse, "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth." They are delivered into the hands of man. On the other hand, "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." (9:3). Man is of God is made wisdom unto us. (1 Co.1:30)
Eating meat is an indication of man's sinful nature. God's commandment is to be treated as the saying of Jesus on divorce, "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."(Matt.19:8)
"And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." (v.1)
The Spirit repeats the blessings noted in the covenant to indicate the heaven and the earth are still the same as was in the day God created them. In order to emphasise the day that is decreed for the Son the same formula 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish' is used,
The quality of the day is fixed and it is as God willed and how the Son shall fulfill it. The only blot on the landscape was the burden of sin and the remedy God exacted from the sons of Adam. His creation well knew the toll that was laid on them. St Paul tells how man's sin did affect them. "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God."(Ro.8:19-23)
In vv.2-3 the Spirit uses 'fear' in association with sin introduced into the world by one man's disobedience. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."(Ro.5:19)
In order to place this element of fear in proper perspective let us consider their earnest expectation. "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."(8:21). Adam's stewardship did not disappear with sin. Sons of Adam and of God are all alike required to hope. "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."(8:23)
If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?
"God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone"
We are to join him (God) in his rest.
Hebrews 4:2-11.
God bless.
Quoting you;
( Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty)
God will judge the dead by their works.
Revelation 20:12.
They are judged by a righteous God and they are Judged in that manner because they WERE offered a sacrifice that they rejected and a justified judgement felt on them.
God bless you.
I will just say what Scripture tells us we must do. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy, or our sins will remain, not forgiven, blotted out, or paid for unless we believe, and come to repentance as we are commanded to do. That only comes from hearing the Gospel of Jesus, the word of God. As we see in Acts 2.
That's all I can say, God bless,
RLW
In my view, and taking your advice on board, I believe that I do allow "the Bible to be its own interpreter" as I compare Scripture with Scripture, the Covenants, the Work of the Cross, etc. But it seems that we are, maybe not even understanding, what some of the verses are actually stating, which then leads us on to our own understanding & belief. Even the Romans 9:13-16 example you gave, to prove your point, I believe by my little exegesis to you, doesn't actually prove anything. Or the Joel 2:12-14 passage: maybe some exegesis from you on these passages might reveal how you are understanding it in light of our discussion, simply because I can't see the connection.
And not only with this important subject of Salvation (i.e. whether we are regenerated before being saved or after), we will very likely disagree on other matters (e.g. are the prophecies concerning Israel's future - into the Great Tribulation, of wars, of Christ's intervention, of their part in His Millennial rule, etc., still to be taken literally or simply transposed to the Church? If they are to be transposed, then what do we do with the other prophecies? Should we reinterpret them as well to suit our preferences? Then, how literally are we supposed to read the Bible? All these strange questions surface, hence my biblical understanding is to accept what is given, yet understanding what the book/chapter/verses are actually referring to and their connection to other verses relevant to it). I only share this last paragraph as a further example - but not for discussion on this particular thread. Every blessing.
We know Seth is the line that goes all the way to the Messiah Jesus therefore when Seth had Enosh, this line was the only one walking and calling on the name of God. We see Enoch and Noah walked with God but by the time of Noah all had corrupted themselves, whether they had created false gods, we are not told but their imaginations were evil.
I may have a different understanding of the sons of God, we see in Luke 3:38 that Adam was called the son of God because he was a direct creation of God, he had no human father. Jesus is the Son of God and through Jesus, we can become sons and daughters of God, but I have not found where men are called sons of God.
If we take the sons of Seth as sons of God, would we not have to take the daughters of men the daughters of Cain or all the other men who did not call on the name of God? They all are from Adam and Eve would not all the daughters be fair? The flood was 1656 or 2256 years from Adam, and it says when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them. So, this was long before the flood.
We see in the Bible the sons of God are referring to angels as we see in Job 1:6-12 Job 2:1 and Job 38:7. I have not found where men were called sons of God until after the Messiah Jesus and those who believe in Him can become sons of God.
We know there are fallen angels like Satan and others on this earth but there are other angels God has locked in chains of darkness I suppose is the bottomless pit until judgment, 2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6. My understanding is these are the sons of God who corrupted and polluted God's creation that He destroyed all but eight. We see this happened again after the flood as told in Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also, after that, as we see in Scripture some tall as cedars, Amos 2:9.
God bless,
RLW
I'm not going to reproduce what I've said already or provide more verses. But please consider this.
God's Law declares that the wages of sin is eternal DEATH. And God obligates Himself to uphold His Law. God cannot ignore His Law and just decide not to punish us for our sin.
So in order to have a people for Himself for eternity and to demonstrate to mankind and to principalities and powers in heavenly places the justice, the mercy, the patience, the long suffering, the love of God; God in Christ chose to pay the full penalty demanded by His Law for those dirty rotten sinners that He chose to save. Sinners that apart from God's working in their life and the MIRACLE of the New Birth in their life would continue in their rebellion against Him, because we want what we want and we love our sin.
God's elective program is God's business. Not our business. And God makes it very clear that His Elect have no more inclination to humble themselves and turn to Him with a broken and contrite heart than any unsaved sinner who continues in their rebellion.
And God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
The drug addict seeking His pleasure in every immoral way possible could be one of God's elect just as readily as the most upstanding citizen of this world. And God must perform the same MIRACLE of salvation in either if they are to be saved.
We should be humbling ourselves before the Word of God, not trying to redesign His Salvation program, and praising Him for His mercy that He would save any one of us at so great a cost to Himself.
I've said this very inadequately and very incompletely.
Yes, He only drove them out to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and live for ever in a sinful condition. But He didn't remove His presence from them. In Genesis 4:26 says, "... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." or "then begun men to be called with the name of the Lord" What does that mean? In Genesis 6:2 it says, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.". The scriptures call the descenants of Seth as "sons of God" while calling all the other as "children of men"
Thank you as well. GBU
May I intervene and say a few things?
Let us see some cases in the Book of Acts concerning people who believed in Jesus. Say Paul. Was he regenerated when he saw Jesus on his way to Damascus? On the contrary he was on a mission to jail the christians there. So what happened to him and believed in Jesus? Answer. Jesus' appearance to him. Second case, Cornelius and his friends. Were they regenerated when Peter came and preached to them? What made them believe? Because of the appearance of the angel Cornelius saw when fasting. Next case That Roman in Cyprus. Was he regenerated? Until a time he couldn't make up his mind who was right, Paul or that sorcerer. What opened his (spiritual) eyes and believed? The loss of sight of that sorcerer after Paul's command. So we see that many times God acts in specific ways to assist people to believe in Him. Recalling how God helped me to believe in Jesus, well, I had a client who was a new born christian. Sometime he started talking to me about Jesus and salvation. I had my beliefs at that time like all people in the world. Maybe God exists maybe no, maybe there is afterlife, maybe not. And I was resisting to him a lot. But what made me keep discussing with him about Jesus was a very joyful feeling I was always having as we were talking about these things. I was feeling joy all the time. And I kept going back and talk until God found an opening in my hert and did all the good work. If not, probably I would be bored after the second time and ended such conversations. So you see joy was the specific action of God to me.
So instead of saying "regeneration" maybe we can say "a specific action of God to those He knows that will believe" to help them believe? Think about it.
Finally in Jeremiah 23:29 says, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" God's word is like a hammer that breaks a rock. What is a rock? it is a stonny heart, an unregenerated heart, isn't it?
Your knowledge of the Greek language is appreciated, I agree that a gate would probably have been mentioned when He drove them out. He drove them out, but they were still in His presence as we see when Cain was driven out from God's face and the presence of God, Genesis 4:14-16. God has given us what we need in only 6 chapters covering 1656 years from Adam to the flood or in the Septuagint 2256 years.
Thanks again
God bless,
RLW
I have been following this discussion I would just ask this, I believe your understanding is everyone is predetermined to be saved or not. What kind of justice is that and why would there even be a judgment? 2 Cor. 5:10 God knows the end from the beginning, and we have been given the way to eternal life with Him and His Son Jesus Christ.
When all is over we read in Rev. 20:11-15, is the final judgment, if our final destination is predetermined and we do not have a choice to accept and believe or reject God's word and the gospel of Christ that God sent His Son to die for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and is setting on the right hand of God that gives us our only hope of salvation and eternal life, why and what for are we going to be judged if we had no obligation to believe and be obedient.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. We must answer the call and believe to be saved, believing is on us, God's mercy and grace are what saves us. God wants all to be saved but not all will accept His gift that we do not deserve or cannot earn by anything we can do but believe.
God bless,
RLW
Well, it says that the garden or paradise was located in Eden (or Edem) which was to the east (of Israel, I suppose). East of Eden was an old movie and usually people have that in mind.
The word paradise does not have the meaning of a walled area in grk. But looking it up on the net I found out that the original word comes from ancient Persian and means "an enclosure". Later on it was used to describe the "walled gardens" of the persian kings. Later on it entered other languages like grk, Hebrew and Aramaic with the meaning of "walled royal park or gardens" and finally it ended up meaning a beautiful place in modern times.
In the OT the Septuagint always uses the word paradise where the Hebrew text says garden. In the NT we see it in 3 cases. It was used by Jesus when He was talking to the thief that was crucified next to him. So here obviously it means a beautiful place in Heaven, Luke 23:43. Also by Paul when he said that the Lord brought him to Paradise, 2 Corinthians 12:4. And by John in Rev 2:7..Paul and John probably used paradise instead of garden as they had in mind the Septuagint text which was the only OT text in use at that time by the christian gentiles and the grk speaking Hebrews.
Was the original garden in Eden an enclosure?. In Genesis 3:23 God sends the Cherubims to guard the garden and prevent Adam and Eve entering. It says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.". If it was walled it would mention a gate, a door, something, wouldn't it? But who really knows? GBU
God has set angels as the Word from heaven commands. St John says that he heard the number. "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men./ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." (Re.9:14-16) The multiples of 2 refers to heaven and the earth. By the same token Noah's age before the flood is given where both the Father and the Son are in perfect agreement. After our image and after our likeness. As with Enoch he also walked with God. In terms of the World of the Spirit 'he was not. Because God took him.
What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establishes the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled his ministry he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadows, of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under which the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25) As in the case of Enoch he also walked with God so death only refers to his flesh.
"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.
Again thank you for your responses. I'm going to get somewhat personal here so please forgive me for that.
I see in your comments a reluctance to allow the Bible to be its own interpreter resulting in an understanding which circumvents what God is teaching in these and many other verses regarding the condition of mankind, the nature of God's justice and judgment, the nature of Christ's atonement, and God's sovereign mercy and grace demonstrated in his election program.
And as a result, creating a gospel where mankind is in charge and not God ALONE.
I hope you will take GiGi's advice and prayerfully continue to examine your understanding, allowing the Bible to be its OWN INTERPRETER. As I and we all need to do regarding any belief that we hold, without introducing the bias of our own wisdom and the way we might like things to be.
The dry land where Noah tended his crops recall his life of the flesh which is his second phase. In order to distinguish these two halves we have the age given. "And Noah did according unto all that theLordcommanded him./And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth." What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establish the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadow of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under whick the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25)
"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"
Here the drunkenness of Noah runs parallel with the deep sleep of Adam. As soon as he comes out of it he is aware what his younger son had done. The Spirit is putting emphasis on the flesh in the latter half.
"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.