So, some will say "where does free will come in concerning the angels, humanity, and any other conscious moral powers, rulers, authorities in the heavenlies?"
God will that all moral beings He created would be free to choose to obey Him or not. When the angels sinned and the other angels did not, He then sealed the holy angels to be forever sinless and judged the sinful angels to never be restored to their original holiness.
For human beings, He consigned all human beings over to sin and corruption, leaving none that are truly righteous as He is righteous. Romans 11:32 i order that He may be merciful to them in their need for redemption.
Adam and Eve were the only humans who truly had a will that was free to obey God or disobey. Since their sin, they and all humans are now in bondage to sin and the corruption of sin and the wages of sin, which is death.
We are not free to righteously choose to seek God, obey Him, love Him, or worship Him in our fallen, unredeemed state. We are only free to choose sin, and that we do. But thank God, that in His sovereignty He chose to regenerate those He elected so that they can have a new nature that is once again free to choose to obey Him yet still having a nature that wills to disobey. See Romans 7.
The sovereignty of God is absolute. We cannot sway His eternal will inn any way. We are all at His mercy and in need of His grace. Thank God He is Yahweh, who is gracious to whomever He is gracious to and gives mercy to whomever He is merciful to. Exodus 33:18-19. This is a major aspect of what His name means! He shows mercy and grace to those He sovereignly chooses.
We cannot understand the workings of this mercy and grace within the Godhead and His will. We are altogether NOT like Him and His ways are far beyond our ability to search out. But He is love and He expresses that love to humans in that while we were yet dead in sin, He made us alive to Him and saved us through the Son. ( Eph. 2:1-8)
Hello, I would like to return to posting on Who God is.
For "S" I want to say that God is SOVEREIGN
God did from eternity freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass according to His unfettered freedom of will, purpose, design, and outcome in all things without any restraint nor willed desire or choice outside of Himself. He is the ultimate authority, ruler, creator, sustainer, and governor of all of creation, things visible and invisible. Nothing in all creation happens unless He allows it to happen.
This is a hard truth because we must then believe that God allowed evil to enter the creation, first with the angels that sinned and then with the human people He made who sinned. He did not cause it to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He allowed it to come about because through it He will be most glorified in showing mercy and grace to save those who are fallen in humanity who He elected to be saved through the Son. He also ordained that He would allow some angels to sin and fall from being sinless to being profoundly evil. And He chose to not redeem these angels ever. One the other hand, He ordained to preserve forever the remaining angels from ever sinning, making them holy forever from the time He created them into all eternity without ever disobeying Him or sinning in their entire being.
On another doctrine of Scripture, God freely and irrevocably foreknew and predestined every person He willed to be saved through the Son. This election God made without any influence outside of Himself. Nothing man could do or say to Him factors into this election because He depends on no one in His decisions. And besides, He determined this election before any thing had been created, so He could not have been influenced by anything outside of Himself. He is completely free and unlimited.
By being sovereign, He reigns over creation in all things. He cannot be thwarted by any evil nor any opposition to His rule and will. Nothing happens to surprise Him.
Concerning 'election' & salvation, there is obviously a clear connection, but if Israel was God's Elect, then all Israel should have been saved (whether the election of God for selecting Israel as His people: Romans 9:11,12; or, said of Israel herself: Isaiah 45:4; or, even of the Church: Colossians 3:12). We know that when the Church is spoken of as God's Elect, then those comprising His Church must all be saved through His Son's Blood & Faith. But of Israel, they are God's Elect by position, yet still requiring Faith & Obedience to God's Word to be heirs of salvation through their coming Redeemer. If they disobey God, their election is of no use at all ( Romans 9:6.7), because even though "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (election), yet of the elect, they must also "attain righteousness, which is of faith" ( Romans 9:30-33).
And so we conclude here, since your example of Numbers 15:32-26 being "a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part", is too far removed from my understanding of this passage, indeed the whole Word itself. You see a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that comes to us as a warning to not introduce works into the Gospel. I see simply a man who violated the Commandment and had to face God's Judgement as a result - nothing to do with our works, rather, of his and our Disobedience to God. Please, I know you are digging into the Scriptures to find the gold therein, which is commendable, but we all need to make sure that what we find & interpret as a precious find, is not just iron pyrite. Thank you for your time David - consider my input closed here. GBU.
Just to give a little on the giants, Goliath was 6 cubits and a span tall that would put him close to 10 feet tall. There is Og king of Bashan his bed was nine cubits in length and four cubits wide, it would be about 14 feet long and about 6.5 feet wide. There are descriptions of the weapons, and they are by far larger than any human could handle. The descriptions of some whose height were like the height of the cedars and was strong as the oaks; Amos 2:9.
It is an interesting study, but it is just history that is hard to grasp because we take it as mythology, but they were real and here on earth.
I've noticed some discussion on the following subjects so , if I may I would like to add my thoughts .
With regard to giants , I'm sure these were just very tall people . Goliath is referred to as one and he was about 6feet 6inches I believe . That might not seem very tall to us , however if we look at very old buildings , some of which in Europe are literally hundreds of years old , we can see how small the doors were . People were very surely , on average much shorter than we are now even just a couple of hundred years ago . We now , for the most part have a much better understanding of nutrition and most of us have much better access to nutritious food , which helps us to grow bigger and stronger . When the Greeks took over half the world , they were apparently a terrifying sight as they had been brought up on milk and meat and olive oil . So they were very much taller than many ancient peoples . Height can also be hireditary and as people tended to marry amongst their own , the height would be perpetuated potentially , through many generations .
As for angels eating and appearing to be humans , why not ? If God can make a donkey speak He can allow an angel to eat and appear in human form , no problem .
Lastly to the gender of angels . I believe angels to be created by God to fulfill His purposes and He can make them male or female as He wishes , Zechariah chapter 5 verse 9 for instance .
I think that maybe , when God gives visions or visitations to us humans , He is aware just how sensitive and potentially scared any of us might be by a celestial being and so takes into account our weak human nature and only allows us to see what our minds and understanding can cope with . When I think of the things that Ezekiel saw I know i should be terrified if I had seen those things . God helped Ezekiel to see and remember and record those things .
May I ask you a personal question Michael ? You don't have to answer me, maybe just answer this question in your own heart and mind , how well do you really know God and Jesus ?
As far as my understanding goes , the ONLY way to get to know them is through the Word , the Living Word of God , that book we call the Bible . For me , it has to be read , every day . God Himself has provided the means by which we may get to know Him and He doesn't expect us to just believe in Him without knowing Him . He expects us to make the effort to really get to know Him and to do so by reading His Word .
The Bible is a wellspring of life to us who call ourselves Christians . We all struggle with our sinful nature sometimes but , when I am tempted to do or say something that I know God would not want me to , I KNOW that God can see and hear me . I KNOW that I am an open book to Him , there is no doubt in my mind that God is real , alive , eternal and ever present everywhere . I only know these things because I have learned about Him by reading the Bible every day for thirty years , praying to Him every day for thirty years and by recognising Him , in His creation , in my life and in the lives of others .
The Bible is the foundation of my faith . Is it the foundation of yours ? Make it so and your feet shall be on solid ground for ever . Go back to basics , start at the beginning and don't give up , be persistent and determined and God will reveal Himself to you and you shall be convinced and therefore stronger in your faith and therefore less troubled in this life . We shall always have some troubles but , if we know that God is with us , we can get through any and everything and do so with a joyful heart .
I do not want to drag this out, I did not mean to insinuate that angels have sex in heaven, Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 have nothing to do with the biological sex of angels. All I said is this verse says when we are resurrected, we will be as the angels, immortal. There will be a day when the last baby is born on this earth.
Devils/demons and angels are two different beings, the Bible does not really tell us how devils/demons came to be, they do not have bodies and have to possess one as we see in Matthew 12:43-45 and other places, Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then.
Just me, if the ones locked in chains of darkness refused to obey a command from God Satan would have already been locked up but he is still disobeying and creating havoc. Were there actual Giants, to my studies they are not of the human race their size is outside of any human, it is up to one's own belief, this is just a discussion that has no relevance to salvation.
Well, my belief on all the ponts yor wrote about are:
About giants. We see that there were giants before and after the flood. Assuming they are of the same race then those after the flood must originate from Noah himself. Then that means that that corruption entered Noah and his family and from there to the whole mankind? Or the giants described in the latter books are some other human races, something which to me sounds more possible?
About those angels who are imprisoned in the bottomless pit, what I have heard is that they are devils who sometime denied to obey a command from God so they were imprisoned there. Example, when Jesus ordered a demon to exit a human and he didn't want to do so, then God punishes them by sending them to the prison, that bottomless pit. So it is a sentence for not being willing to obey God. The estate and habitation Jude is talking about, I am considering them as the holy state and Heaven where all those demons were living before rebeling against God. This seems to agree with what Jude was talking about in the previous verse, Jude 1:5-6, "5.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6.And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude is trying to say that disobedience to God brings punishment and uses the example of those devils.
About angels having a biological sex. If we assume that there are male angels then we must assume that there are female angels too. But what for since they will never reproduce? So they have sex in Heaven, too? Sorry Ii know it sounds weard but I wanted to make a point.
About angels having bodies and eating food, well this is something we can not explain really and we have to simply believe it because the Bible says so.
Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?
Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?
Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?
We see in the lives of Moses and Abraham that the seed in itself was there. Appreciative of God's calling, their obedience to God's word began showing results. Can two persons walk together unless agreed upon?(Am.3:3)
After the great flood nations were moving away from their calling. Going east signalled their ungodliness. Against this we have Abraham bucking the general trend of materialism. In the case of Moses, God called him out."And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. "(Ex.3:4) In obedience faith has a chance to grow and it was thus with the saints of old. Unknown to the Patriarch his faith life was equipping him far greater things. It is faith that opens a believer's eye to know the blessings under the covenant. Without faith what we read here in this forum and elsewhere merely prattle on sacred matters as though they can solve it by their reasoning? "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." He.5:12 Symptomatic is the relative merits of KJV and other versions. With no appreciation for the Spirit they have itching ears , and it is the case of the bind leading the blind.
If a believer has no resect for his indwelling Spirit no amount of teaching the word is going to help.
"Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot./ And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees." God's covenant with Man is for perpetual generations. These are included in the generation of Jesus to whom God has decreed a day. Of the three sons of Noah, "and of them was the whole earth overspread."(9:19). From Eden the Spirit gives us a direction that explains the uttermost parts of the earth. East of Eden was merely the beginning and after the flood people began moving eastwards. "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech./And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east." (11:1-2) What was the one speech? "I will" as Lucifer said. Noah's sons were three and the number Three is a tag for the Son. Farther from Eden people represented seeking new adventure in outer darkness. The mighty hunter Nimrod must have been a celebrity of his times. We do not read the people as was in the generation of Enos, "and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." (4:26). Division of the earth,"after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations," was more important to them. Then came famines and human migration were forced on them. Yet turning to God for help was not felt as we see in our own times. If this is not 'outer darkness what will you call our times? Jeremiah qualified those who made flesh their arm."Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord."(Je.17:5) As was in the time of Nimrod we live in such barbarous times.
What I believe and understand is that mankind is a spiritual being created by God, in God's image. God not being lonely desired to create mankind for fellowship and to become like God (through Jesus Christ). That is why it is referred to in the bible as a "high calling".
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV
According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV
Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)
"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die." Job 2:9 KJV
At Job's time of adversity, suffering, vulnerability, and weakness was a time that Job discovered who or whom was not for him, even more importantly who in his life was not for God and not supportive of him keeping his faith in God. Earlier in Job's life, when Job appeared to be blessed and prosperous, no one questioned Job's faithfulness or integrity. While Job was being tested he got to see the faithfulness and integrity of others and who the adversary was able to work thru to come against his faith. Later in the book of Job, after God tested Job, God restored Job and placed family and friends that were a blessing to him, all because God's servant Job was faithful during his time of testing.
I believe Job knew he was being tested, since only Job knew if he had sinned and Job also believed God was good and faithful and was not punishing him but testing his faith. His wife just wanted an end to the suffering and wanted Job to sin, by cursing God and giving up on life, so that he could die. After Job lost so much I believe he realized that all he really had and had control of was his integrity.
Wait for the Lord , He will show you what to do , in the meantime be patient , don't loose faith in Him to put you in a better place . May God bless you and keep you safe .
"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations." The covenant referred here is the everlasting covenant and it covers perpetual generations. From these man who is blessed is to be admitted in the Fellowship of God with Man in which he represented Jesus Christ. This Man is Jesus Christ the Word become flesh. We have been predestinated in him before the foundation of the world. (Ep.1:3-4) 1.Between me and you. Noah serves as the double for his Son. 2 Every living creature that is with you. 3 The token. We shall try to understand the third element,
The Word is sound so when God commands "Let there be light" there are consequences.(Ge.1:14, 17-18) The sign of two great lights are the Zion-New Jerusalem descending fro heaven in Re.21:3. The bow similarly is another token. Advent of Jesus Christ is foreshadowed by these signs. Let us recap: God repeats the covenant in terms of 'after our image' and "after our likeness'. In Ge.1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" and both Adam and Noah are alike. Noah is now set down as man in place of Adam. Noah serves as the steward for His creation. Because of sin having entered into the world, man is allowed to eat meat besides herbs. But his responsibility is still the same. "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." (9:16-17) The token covers "all flesh." So all the violence and bloodshed shall be judged at the end of the day decreed for the Son. "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Day and night shall not cease' is stated in the covenant. So there is only one covenant where by Jesus Christ all things consist.
I am unaware of any information that God gives us as to how he made the choice of whom to save.
He is Crystal clear, however, that that choice was not made on the basis of any righteousness, any goodness, any worthiness, any action that we might take.
What He sees in every one of His elect is what we read in Romans 3:10-18. A condition no different than any who remain unsaved.
It is only God's mercy that He would save anyone.
God's elective program is God's business. It is not our business.
If God has saved us, it is our business to proclaim the true gospel of salvation by Grace alone. And God will use that proclamation as he sees fit, according to his will, not ours.
And if we are trusting in or proclaiming a gospel where God does anything less than 100% of the work to save us, it is not the gospel of the Bible.
I felt compelled to revisit your comments regarding Romans 9.
This passage and God's use of the term "elect" and "election" throughout the Bible has EVERYTHING to do with Salvation.
I'm sorry to say that the language you use here in describing your understanding reflects a gospel of Grace plus works and that God saves on the basis of OUR CHOICE and not SOLELY on the basis of His Grace and Mercy alone.
Please consider the man in Numbers 15 that picked up a few sticks on the sabbath which is a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part.
I understand your question. But the scenario you pose is not what the Bible teaches.
First of all, just looking at the law of our land, your scenario does not hold because if that person's debt to the law had been fully paid, the law could no longer condem them or punish them for the crime in question. And chosing to accept or reject the payment does not even enter into the question.
Now lets consider the Law of God, the Bible, and what does it say.
The Bible is crystal clear that the penalty for breaking the Law of God is to be under the Wrath of God and to suffer eternal Death. And God cannot and will not just set that Law aside without that penalty being fully paid. That would be a violation of God's justice.
Furthermore, if anyone could somehow pay that penalty, the sentance required by the Law, and come out on the other side, the Law could no longer condem them because they would have paid that debt to the Law in full. This does not involve any choice or acceptence on their part. It IS the LAW! And God does NOT violate His Law.
So then, how is anyone going to be saved?
The answer is that only God Himself, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ could pay that penalty for any individual. And once He has done that, that individual is GUARANTEED to become saved. Because that person now stands guiltless before the Law of God.
So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life.
Judgment and Salvation must be viewed in the context of the Law of God, which is the Bible alone and in its entirety.
This explaintion does not begin to express the full nature of mankind's condition or the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation.
So according to you brother which are the conditions of a person to be selected by God. If it not faith or works or anything else. what is it that Gos sees in us in order to select us for salvation?
"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek./The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath./He shall judge among the heathen"
In continuation with the nakedness of Noah we find curse of God continuing as before under the changed circumstances. It also makes impact on their worship.
Priestly garments under Levitical priesthood were designed to cover their nakedness. "And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:"(Ex.28: 42). The Law of Moses was for nations characterised by flesh and blood. "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?/For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."(He.7:11-12) Before the worlds were founded God had decreed a day for the Son and also his priesthood. "TheLordhath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."(Ps.110:4). "Forever" is a tag to indicate the role of Jesus Christ and it vindicates his assertion, "Before Abraham was, I am". Melchizedek blessing Abraham similarly establishes that blessing of a believer was predestined in the Man component. It is thus the everlasting covenant stated in Ge.1 under seven days is the fountain head from which blessings flowed. By cutting and pasting the imposter church has dropped the covenant from the Scriptures and made instead God's blessing Abraham as the source. Without the head what is the creed that the churches uphold but doctrine of men.
"And (Noah) he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent."
Noah is set as the double for Adam. "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Adam was naked as Eve was and they were covered with the glory of God, which is the outward manifestation of Power and Wisdom principles at work. So Jesus says, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." Jesus Christ of God has become wisdom to us. With one man's sin death entered into the world. So shame is the state of man coming short of the glory of God. As with man's own righteousness it is filthy rags as the apron of fig leaves man and woman wore. God showed the truth without shedding of blood, is no remission.. The coats of skins figuratively expressed righteousness of God established in the emblem of the slain Lamb. In the light of the above nakedness merely defined the world of nations, their outer darkness.
Nakedness becomes an issue indicative of the flesh and blood. Flesh and blood shall not inherit eternal life. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."(1 Co.15:50).
In the life of Noah we can see the same inversion principle working as in case of Jesus. He is the Lord of heaven who came down in his humanity in order to lead us to glory. Before the great flood he is set as the double for the Son and after, he is set after the likeness of Adam. He became a husbandman. Where Adam felt no shame before his fall we find Noah cursing Canaan over it.. The sinful earth required the Advent of Jesus Christ, to redeem the earth from the works of the devil. ( 1 John 3:8)
God demanded account of the blood from man and as a steward over His creation. "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it." God warned Adam of death in his disobedience. It is in the day, decreed for his Son.
Hi David0922: Is this what you are saying: that sometime before hand God decided
Who would be saved and who won't and those are the ones who will go to heaven and God works on their hearts to make them become born again. But we ourselves can only know if we're one of the elect is by God drawing us to Him. So, where does freewill fit into this teaching? GOD BLESS :)
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Here the Spirit refers to the word with the Man component. Jesus defined what the word signified for the earth. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."( John 5:63). God's commandment to Noah hinged on his Son and his Atonement. The body that God had prepared for the Son had a single purpose. As the Lamb of God he would take away the sin of the world. As the Word become flesh it was determined in the will of God that the world made to appear precisely mirrored the world unseen. Faith of God between Father and Son totally agreed. Atonement held no other mystery than the blood of Jesus is shed once for all. "And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."( 1 John 1:7) In the 'Now' of eternal Will there is no correction or modification required. When Jesus gives up his ghost it is tohis Father he addresses and he says,"It is finished." In eternity or in heaven there is no blood spilt.
Jesus speaks of flesh gains nothing without this element of life. For this reason when Jesus refers to outer darkness he referred the spreading of nations from the three sons of Noah.
Noah is now set down as a husbandman even as Adam was. Before the flood he was the double for the Son leading many as Jesus Christ from Judgment. Noah walked with God as Enoch did before him and he was not. Similarly Noah walked with God and he was not. Similar to Elijah. Where the Spirit has drawn a veil do we ask if he died or not? TThey are set down in the Bible for our spiritual instruction. Burden of sin allowed man meat as with herbs.(9:3).
He was forbidden to eat blood.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
It is true that Before we have become saved, we cannot know if we are one of God's elect. And we are in rebellion against God in both body and soul just like any other person, elect or not.
However, if God intends to "save" us He will begin to draw us. We will become more and more aware that we are in deep and terrible trouble with God because of our sins. We will begin to cry out to God for His mercy that He might save us. We will begin to turn away from our sins and turn to God with a broken and contrite heart as God works within us.
At some point God will apply His Salvation to our life by giving us a New Resurrected Soul, and we will have become Born Again. We will have become a "New creature in Christ" and can know that God has saved us as we see the evidence of Salvation in our life.
All of this is very mysterious and unique to each individual in many ways, I believe.
God can "save" us even in our mother's whom, like John the Baptist. Or at the last moments of our life, like the thief on the cross who one moment was reviling Jesus just like the other and then was asking Jesus to "remember him"; this was Christ working in his heart, giving him a New Heart, a New Soul before our very eyes, as Christ said to him "today you will be with me in paradise".
So yes, if we are one of God's elect and have become "saved", we can know and have the assurance of salvation, as we see the evidence of salvation in our life, and we have become a child of God.
But all of this is God's work as He works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
I have said this very inadequately and incompetently. And we must humble ourselves before the Word of God as we search out the Scriptures, praying that God might open our understanding to see if these things are so.
Thanks David0921 for bringing up 1 Corinthians chapter 2, for that is indeed an apt portion of Scripture that helps us understand the difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom which comes from the Spirit of God.
As we have discussed in the past, & bears repeating here again, unless we can actually first understand what the Bible narrative is (i.e. our foundation of biblical knowledge), then we have little chance of progressing further. Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthian church in plain language, particularly relating that his last visit & ministry to them was not a demonstration of the use of complex verbiage or of oratory skills to teach & convince them, as was commonly the manner of his worldly counterparts, but was shared with them being undergirded & charged by the Spirit within him. His language may have sounded plain & his emotions at the time quite disturbed (from his experiences at Athens & the new believers left behind at Thessalonica ( Acts 17)), but Paul's speech to the Corinthians was entirely different to the worldly who spoke from their own wisdom & not the Spirit of God.
Therefore, I believe, as stated in comments long ago, that unless we first have an understanding of what is said in the Word (as those who are born of God), we have little hope of correctly 'connecting the dots', so to speak, & very likely would come up with all sorts of interpretations: person A saying this & person B saying that - both claiming to be "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" & never finding agreement. The road to correct understanding maybe long & arduous, but must be based first on what the Word of God plainly tells us and then as we progress in our reading/study, the Spirit will bring to mind how the Scriptures correctly fit together. This then is how I understand "comparing spiritual things with spiritual": it is from the Holy Spirit Who teaches from a Book that is to be read plainly but with a spiritual understanding and application by us.
Thanks for your reply, I know many have the understanding the sons of God in Genesis 6 are the line of Seth and the daughters of men are of Cain and those not following God. I will just give a little of my understanding not in debate.
Scripture tells us there were Nephilim/giants in the world before and after the flood Genesis 6:42 Samuel 21:16Joshua 12:4Numbers 13:33Deuteronomy 2:19-21Amos 2:9 Also in Joshua 13, 15, 17, 18, 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20 Also, in the Old Testament, there is the Rephaim or Rephaites, and the context describes them as giants. so, where did they come from?
2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1: 6 tell us of a group of angels who left their first estate and are locked in darkness. Many other fallen angels we battle including Satan are on this earth 2 Corinthians 11:14-15. But these angels are locked in darkness until judgment, and we see in Revelation 9:11 they have a king. These angels had to do something far greater than rebelling against God, my understanding is they adulterated God's creation, we see how corrupt it got.
We know from Jude and 2 Peter angels sinned, kept not their first estate, and left their habitation. Estate means condition, status, and dominion, and habitation means residence or dwelling place. I understand how many takes Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 but Jesus is not referring to sex He is saying when we are resurrected, we will be like the angels in heaven who are immortal. We are mortal, we have to marry and reproduce when we are resurrected, we will be raised immortal same as the angels no more need to marry and reproduce, and we will be on the earth not heaven.
We see angels come down on earth that have bodies, they can eat and drink, Genesis 18:1-8 and other places like Hebrews 13:2. To me the angels who left their estate is where these giants came from, and we see when Israel went into the promised land God wiped out the giants or had them kill them all even the children.
So, if I understand you that despite my asking God to forgive me of my sins and become born again, I can't know if I'm going to heaven or hell? The best I can do is hope I'm one of the ones He's already chosen to go to heaven. It doesn't matter what kind of life I live I still might not be chosen by Him and there is a very real possibility that my neighbor who lives like the devil is going because he is one of the chosen? Isn't this is Calvinism a false doctrine and there's no hope in this religion then or in Catholicism another false doctrine. God Bless :)
Cont.
So, some will say "where does free will come in concerning the angels, humanity, and any other conscious moral powers, rulers, authorities in the heavenlies?"
God will that all moral beings He created would be free to choose to obey Him or not. When the angels sinned and the other angels did not, He then sealed the holy angels to be forever sinless and judged the sinful angels to never be restored to their original holiness.
For human beings, He consigned all human beings over to sin and corruption, leaving none that are truly righteous as He is righteous. Romans 11:32 i order that He may be merciful to them in their need for redemption.
Adam and Eve were the only humans who truly had a will that was free to obey God or disobey. Since their sin, they and all humans are now in bondage to sin and the corruption of sin and the wages of sin, which is death.
We are not free to righteously choose to seek God, obey Him, love Him, or worship Him in our fallen, unredeemed state. We are only free to choose sin, and that we do. But thank God, that in His sovereignty He chose to regenerate those He elected so that they can have a new nature that is once again free to choose to obey Him yet still having a nature that wills to disobey. See Romans 7.
The sovereignty of God is absolute. We cannot sway His eternal will inn any way. We are all at His mercy and in need of His grace. Thank God He is Yahweh, who is gracious to whomever He is gracious to and gives mercy to whomever He is merciful to. Exodus 33:18-19. This is a major aspect of what His name means! He shows mercy and grace to those He sovereignly chooses.
We cannot understand the workings of this mercy and grace within the Godhead and His will. We are altogether NOT like Him and His ways are far beyond our ability to search out. But He is love and He expresses that love to humans in that while we were yet dead in sin, He made us alive to Him and saved us through the Son. ( Eph. 2:1-8)
For "S" I want to say that God is SOVEREIGN
God did from eternity freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass according to His unfettered freedom of will, purpose, design, and outcome in all things without any restraint nor willed desire or choice outside of Himself. He is the ultimate authority, ruler, creator, sustainer, and governor of all of creation, things visible and invisible. Nothing in all creation happens unless He allows it to happen.
This is a hard truth because we must then believe that God allowed evil to enter the creation, first with the angels that sinned and then with the human people He made who sinned. He did not cause it to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He allowed it to come about because through it He will be most glorified in showing mercy and grace to save those who are fallen in humanity who He elected to be saved through the Son. He also ordained that He would allow some angels to sin and fall from being sinless to being profoundly evil. And He chose to not redeem these angels ever. One the other hand, He ordained to preserve forever the remaining angels from ever sinning, making them holy forever from the time He created them into all eternity without ever disobeying Him or sinning in their entire being.
On another doctrine of Scripture, God freely and irrevocably foreknew and predestined every person He willed to be saved through the Son. This election God made without any influence outside of Himself. Nothing man could do or say to Him factors into this election because He depends on no one in His decisions. And besides, He determined this election before any thing had been created, so He could not have been influenced by anything outside of Himself. He is completely free and unlimited.
By being sovereign, He reigns over creation in all things. He cannot be thwarted by any evil nor any opposition to His rule and will. Nothing happens to surprise Him.
Concerning 'election' & salvation, there is obviously a clear connection, but if Israel was God's Elect, then all Israel should have been saved (whether the election of God for selecting Israel as His people: Romans 9:11,12; or, said of Israel herself: Isaiah 45:4; or, even of the Church: Colossians 3:12). We know that when the Church is spoken of as God's Elect, then those comprising His Church must all be saved through His Son's Blood & Faith. But of Israel, they are God's Elect by position, yet still requiring Faith & Obedience to God's Word to be heirs of salvation through their coming Redeemer. If they disobey God, their election is of no use at all ( Romans 9:6.7), because even though "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (election), yet of the elect, they must also "attain righteousness, which is of faith" ( Romans 9:30-33).
And so we conclude here, since your example of Numbers 15:32-26 being "a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part", is too far removed from my understanding of this passage, indeed the whole Word itself. You see a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that comes to us as a warning to not introduce works into the Gospel. I see simply a man who violated the Commandment and had to face God's Judgement as a result - nothing to do with our works, rather, of his and our Disobedience to God. Please, I know you are digging into the Scriptures to find the gold therein, which is commendable, but we all need to make sure that what we find & interpret as a precious find, is not just iron pyrite. Thank you for your time David - consider my input closed here. GBU.
Just to give a little on the giants, Goliath was 6 cubits and a span tall that would put him close to 10 feet tall. There is Og king of Bashan his bed was nine cubits in length and four cubits wide, it would be about 14 feet long and about 6.5 feet wide. There are descriptions of the weapons, and they are by far larger than any human could handle. The descriptions of some whose height were like the height of the cedars and was strong as the oaks; Amos 2:9.
It is an interesting study, but it is just history that is hard to grasp because we take it as mythology, but they were real and here on earth.
God bless,
RLW
With regard to giants , I'm sure these were just very tall people . Goliath is referred to as one and he was about 6feet 6inches I believe . That might not seem very tall to us , however if we look at very old buildings , some of which in Europe are literally hundreds of years old , we can see how small the doors were . People were very surely , on average much shorter than we are now even just a couple of hundred years ago . We now , for the most part have a much better understanding of nutrition and most of us have much better access to nutritious food , which helps us to grow bigger and stronger . When the Greeks took over half the world , they were apparently a terrifying sight as they had been brought up on milk and meat and olive oil . So they were very much taller than many ancient peoples . Height can also be hireditary and as people tended to marry amongst their own , the height would be perpetuated potentially , through many generations .
As for angels eating and appearing to be humans , why not ? If God can make a donkey speak He can allow an angel to eat and appear in human form , no problem .
Lastly to the gender of angels . I believe angels to be created by God to fulfill His purposes and He can make them male or female as He wishes , Zechariah chapter 5 verse 9 for instance .
I think that maybe , when God gives visions or visitations to us humans , He is aware just how sensitive and potentially scared any of us might be by a celestial being and so takes into account our weak human nature and only allows us to see what our minds and understanding can cope with . When I think of the things that Ezekiel saw I know i should be terrified if I had seen those things . God helped Ezekiel to see and remember and record those things .
These are just my thoughts on those topics .
As far as my understanding goes , the ONLY way to get to know them is through the Word , the Living Word of God , that book we call the Bible . For me , it has to be read , every day . God Himself has provided the means by which we may get to know Him and He doesn't expect us to just believe in Him without knowing Him . He expects us to make the effort to really get to know Him and to do so by reading His Word .
The Bible is a wellspring of life to us who call ourselves Christians . We all struggle with our sinful nature sometimes but , when I am tempted to do or say something that I know God would not want me to , I KNOW that God can see and hear me . I KNOW that I am an open book to Him , there is no doubt in my mind that God is real , alive , eternal and ever present everywhere . I only know these things because I have learned about Him by reading the Bible every day for thirty years , praying to Him every day for thirty years and by recognising Him , in His creation , in my life and in the lives of others .
The Bible is the foundation of my faith . Is it the foundation of yours ? Make it so and your feet shall be on solid ground for ever . Go back to basics , start at the beginning and don't give up , be persistent and determined and God will reveal Himself to you and you shall be convinced and therefore stronger in your faith and therefore less troubled in this life . We shall always have some troubles but , if we know that God is with us , we can get through any and everything and do so with a joyful heart .
I do not want to drag this out, I did not mean to insinuate that angels have sex in heaven, Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 have nothing to do with the biological sex of angels. All I said is this verse says when we are resurrected, we will be as the angels, immortal. There will be a day when the last baby is born on this earth.
Devils/demons and angels are two different beings, the Bible does not really tell us how devils/demons came to be, they do not have bodies and have to possess one as we see in Matthew 12:43-45 and other places, Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then.
Just me, if the ones locked in chains of darkness refused to obey a command from God Satan would have already been locked up but he is still disobeying and creating havoc. Were there actual Giants, to my studies they are not of the human race their size is outside of any human, it is up to one's own belief, this is just a discussion that has no relevance to salvation.
Thank you, brother God bless,
RLW
Well, my belief on all the ponts yor wrote about are:
About giants. We see that there were giants before and after the flood. Assuming they are of the same race then those after the flood must originate from Noah himself. Then that means that that corruption entered Noah and his family and from there to the whole mankind? Or the giants described in the latter books are some other human races, something which to me sounds more possible?
About those angels who are imprisoned in the bottomless pit, what I have heard is that they are devils who sometime denied to obey a command from God so they were imprisoned there. Example, when Jesus ordered a demon to exit a human and he didn't want to do so, then God punishes them by sending them to the prison, that bottomless pit. So it is a sentence for not being willing to obey God. The estate and habitation Jude is talking about, I am considering them as the holy state and Heaven where all those demons were living before rebeling against God. This seems to agree with what Jude was talking about in the previous verse, Jude 1:5-6, "5.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6.And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude is trying to say that disobedience to God brings punishment and uses the example of those devils.
About angels having a biological sex. If we assume that there are male angels then we must assume that there are female angels too. But what for since they will never reproduce? So they have sex in Heaven, too? Sorry Ii know it sounds weard but I wanted to make a point.
About angels having bodies and eating food, well this is something we can not explain really and we have to simply believe it because the Bible says so.
GBU
Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?
Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?
Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?
We see in the lives of Moses and Abraham that the seed in itself was there. Appreciative of God's calling, their obedience to God's word began showing results. Can two persons walk together unless agreed upon?(Am.3:3)
After the great flood nations were moving away from their calling. Going east signalled their ungodliness. Against this we have Abraham bucking the general trend of materialism. In the case of Moses, God called him out."And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. "(Ex.3:4) In obedience faith has a chance to grow and it was thus with the saints of old. Unknown to the Patriarch his faith life was equipping him far greater things. It is faith that opens a believer's eye to know the blessings under the covenant. Without faith what we read here in this forum and elsewhere merely prattle on sacred matters as though they can solve it by their reasoning? "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." He.5:12 Symptomatic is the relative merits of KJV and other versions. With no appreciation for the Spirit they have itching ears , and it is the case of the bind leading the blind.
If a believer has no resect for his indwelling Spirit no amount of teaching the word is going to help.
"Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot./ And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees." God's covenant with Man is for perpetual generations. These are included in the generation of Jesus to whom God has decreed a day. Of the three sons of Noah, "and of them was the whole earth overspread."(9:19). From Eden the Spirit gives us a direction that explains the uttermost parts of the earth. East of Eden was merely the beginning and after the flood people began moving eastwards. "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech./And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east." (11:1-2) What was the one speech? "I will" as Lucifer said. Noah's sons were three and the number Three is a tag for the Son. Farther from Eden people represented seeking new adventure in outer darkness. The mighty hunter Nimrod must have been a celebrity of his times. We do not read the people as was in the generation of Enos, "and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." (4:26). Division of the earth,"after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations," was more important to them. Then came famines and human migration were forced on them. Yet turning to God for help was not felt as we see in our own times. If this is not 'outer darkness what will you call our times? Jeremiah qualified those who made flesh their arm."Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord."(Je.17:5) As was in the time of Nimrod we live in such barbarous times.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV
According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV
Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)
At Job's time of adversity, suffering, vulnerability, and weakness was a time that Job discovered who or whom was not for him, even more importantly who in his life was not for God and not supportive of him keeping his faith in God. Earlier in Job's life, when Job appeared to be blessed and prosperous, no one questioned Job's faithfulness or integrity. While Job was being tested he got to see the faithfulness and integrity of others and who the adversary was able to work thru to come against his faith. Later in the book of Job, after God tested Job, God restored Job and placed family and friends that were a blessing to him, all because God's servant Job was faithful during his time of testing.
I believe Job knew he was being tested, since only Job knew if he had sinned and Job also believed God was good and faithful and was not punishing him but testing his faith. His wife just wanted an end to the suffering and wanted Job to sin, by cursing God and giving up on life, so that he could die. After Job lost so much I believe he realized that all he really had and had control of was his integrity.
"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations." The covenant referred here is the everlasting covenant and it covers perpetual generations. From these man who is blessed is to be admitted in the Fellowship of God with Man in which he represented Jesus Christ. This Man is Jesus Christ the Word become flesh. We have been predestinated in him before the foundation of the world. (Ep.1:3-4) 1.Between me and you. Noah serves as the double for his Son. 2 Every living creature that is with you. 3 The token. We shall try to understand the third element,
The Word is sound so when God commands "Let there be light" there are consequences.(Ge.1:14, 17-18) The sign of two great lights are the Zion-New Jerusalem descending fro heaven in Re.21:3. The bow similarly is another token. Advent of Jesus Christ is foreshadowed by these signs. Let us recap: God repeats the covenant in terms of 'after our image' and "after our likeness'. In Ge.1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" and both Adam and Noah are alike. Noah is now set down as man in place of Adam. Noah serves as the steward for His creation. Because of sin having entered into the world, man is allowed to eat meat besides herbs. But his responsibility is still the same. "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." (9:16-17) The token covers "all flesh." So all the violence and bloodshed shall be judged at the end of the day decreed for the Son. "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Day and night shall not cease' is stated in the covenant. So there is only one covenant where by Jesus Christ all things consist.
I am unaware of any information that God gives us as to how he made the choice of whom to save.
He is Crystal clear, however, that that choice was not made on the basis of any righteousness, any goodness, any worthiness, any action that we might take.
What He sees in every one of His elect is what we read in Romans 3:10-18. A condition no different than any who remain unsaved.
It is only God's mercy that He would save anyone.
God's elective program is God's business. It is not our business.
If God has saved us, it is our business to proclaim the true gospel of salvation by Grace alone. And God will use that proclamation as he sees fit, according to his will, not ours.
And if we are trusting in or proclaiming a gospel where God does anything less than 100% of the work to save us, it is not the gospel of the Bible.
I felt compelled to revisit your comments regarding Romans 9.
This passage and God's use of the term "elect" and "election" throughout the Bible has EVERYTHING to do with Salvation.
I'm sorry to say that the language you use here in describing your understanding reflects a gospel of Grace plus works and that God saves on the basis of OUR CHOICE and not SOLELY on the basis of His Grace and Mercy alone.
Please consider the man in Numbers 15 that picked up a few sticks on the sabbath which is a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part.
Hello Giannis,
I understand your question. But the scenario you pose is not what the Bible teaches.
First of all, just looking at the law of our land, your scenario does not hold because if that person's debt to the law had been fully paid, the law could no longer condem them or punish them for the crime in question. And chosing to accept or reject the payment does not even enter into the question.
Now lets consider the Law of God, the Bible, and what does it say.
The Bible is crystal clear that the penalty for breaking the Law of God is to be under the Wrath of God and to suffer eternal Death. And God cannot and will not just set that Law aside without that penalty being fully paid. That would be a violation of God's justice.
Furthermore, if anyone could somehow pay that penalty, the sentance required by the Law, and come out on the other side, the Law could no longer condem them because they would have paid that debt to the Law in full. This does not involve any choice or acceptence on their part. It IS the LAW! And God does NOT violate His Law.
So then, how is anyone going to be saved?
The answer is that only God Himself, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ could pay that penalty for any individual. And once He has done that, that individual is GUARANTEED to become saved. Because that person now stands guiltless before the Law of God.
So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life.
Judgment and Salvation must be viewed in the context of the Law of God, which is the Bible alone and in its entirety.
This explaintion does not begin to express the full nature of mankind's condition or the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation.
So according to you brother which are the conditions of a person to be selected by God. If it not faith or works or anything else. what is it that Gos sees in us in order to select us for salvation?
"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek./The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath./He shall judge among the heathen"
In continuation with the nakedness of Noah we find curse of God continuing as before under the changed circumstances. It also makes impact on their worship.
Priestly garments under Levitical priesthood were designed to cover their nakedness. "And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:"(Ex.28: 42). The Law of Moses was for nations characterised by flesh and blood. "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?/For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."(He.7:11-12) Before the worlds were founded God had decreed a day for the Son and also his priesthood. "TheLordhath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."(Ps.110:4). "Forever" is a tag to indicate the role of Jesus Christ and it vindicates his assertion, "Before Abraham was, I am". Melchizedek blessing Abraham similarly establishes that blessing of a believer was predestined in the Man component. It is thus the everlasting covenant stated in Ge.1 under seven days is the fountain head from which blessings flowed. By cutting and pasting the imposter church has dropped the covenant from the Scriptures and made instead God's blessing Abraham as the source. Without the head what is the creed that the churches uphold but doctrine of men.
"And (Noah) he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent."
Noah is set as the double for Adam. "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Adam was naked as Eve was and they were covered with the glory of God, which is the outward manifestation of Power and Wisdom principles at work. So Jesus says, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." Jesus Christ of God has become wisdom to us. With one man's sin death entered into the world. So shame is the state of man coming short of the glory of God. As with man's own righteousness it is filthy rags as the apron of fig leaves man and woman wore. God showed the truth without shedding of blood, is no remission.. The coats of skins figuratively expressed righteousness of God established in the emblem of the slain Lamb. In the light of the above nakedness merely defined the world of nations, their outer darkness.
Nakedness becomes an issue indicative of the flesh and blood. Flesh and blood shall not inherit eternal life. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."(1 Co.15:50).
In the life of Noah we can see the same inversion principle working as in case of Jesus. He is the Lord of heaven who came down in his humanity in order to lead us to glory. Before the great flood he is set as the double for the Son and after, he is set after the likeness of Adam. He became a husbandman. Where Adam felt no shame before his fall we find Noah cursing Canaan over it.. The sinful earth required the Advent of Jesus Christ, to redeem the earth from the works of the devil. ( 1 John 3:8)
God demanded account of the blood from man and as a steward over His creation. "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it." God warned Adam of death in his disobedience. It is in the day, decreed for his Son.
Who would be saved and who won't and those are the ones who will go to heaven and God works on their hearts to make them become born again. But we ourselves can only know if we're one of the elect is by God drawing us to Him. So, where does freewill fit into this teaching? GOD BLESS :)
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Here the Spirit refers to the word with the Man component. Jesus defined what the word signified for the earth. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."( John 5:63). God's commandment to Noah hinged on his Son and his Atonement. The body that God had prepared for the Son had a single purpose. As the Lamb of God he would take away the sin of the world. As the Word become flesh it was determined in the will of God that the world made to appear precisely mirrored the world unseen. Faith of God between Father and Son totally agreed. Atonement held no other mystery than the blood of Jesus is shed once for all. "And the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."( 1 John 1:7) In the 'Now' of eternal Will there is no correction or modification required. When Jesus gives up his ghost it is tohis Father he addresses and he says,"It is finished." In eternity or in heaven there is no blood spilt.
Jesus speaks of flesh gains nothing without this element of life. For this reason when Jesus refers to outer darkness he referred the spreading of nations from the three sons of Noah.
Noah is now set down as a husbandman even as Adam was. Before the flood he was the double for the Son leading many as Jesus Christ from Judgment. Noah walked with God as Enoch did before him and he was not. Similarly Noah walked with God and he was not. Similar to Elijah. Where the Spirit has drawn a veil do we ask if he died or not? TThey are set down in the Bible for our spiritual instruction. Burden of sin allowed man meat as with herbs.(9:3).
He was forbidden to eat blood.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches.
It is true that Before we have become saved, we cannot know if we are one of God's elect. And we are in rebellion against God in both body and soul just like any other person, elect or not.
However, if God intends to "save" us He will begin to draw us. We will become more and more aware that we are in deep and terrible trouble with God because of our sins. We will begin to cry out to God for His mercy that He might save us. We will begin to turn away from our sins and turn to God with a broken and contrite heart as God works within us.
At some point God will apply His Salvation to our life by giving us a New Resurrected Soul, and we will have become Born Again. We will have become a "New creature in Christ" and can know that God has saved us as we see the evidence of Salvation in our life.
All of this is very mysterious and unique to each individual in many ways, I believe.
God can "save" us even in our mother's whom, like John the Baptist. Or at the last moments of our life, like the thief on the cross who one moment was reviling Jesus just like the other and then was asking Jesus to "remember him"; this was Christ working in his heart, giving him a New Heart, a New Soul before our very eyes, as Christ said to him "today you will be with me in paradise".
So yes, if we are one of God's elect and have become "saved", we can know and have the assurance of salvation, as we see the evidence of salvation in our life, and we have become a child of God.
But all of this is God's work as He works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
I have said this very inadequately and incompetently. And we must humble ourselves before the Word of God as we search out the Scriptures, praying that God might open our understanding to see if these things are so.
As we have discussed in the past, & bears repeating here again, unless we can actually first understand what the Bible narrative is (i.e. our foundation of biblical knowledge), then we have little chance of progressing further. Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthian church in plain language, particularly relating that his last visit & ministry to them was not a demonstration of the use of complex verbiage or of oratory skills to teach & convince them, as was commonly the manner of his worldly counterparts, but was shared with them being undergirded & charged by the Spirit within him. His language may have sounded plain & his emotions at the time quite disturbed (from his experiences at Athens & the new believers left behind at Thessalonica ( Acts 17)), but Paul's speech to the Corinthians was entirely different to the worldly who spoke from their own wisdom & not the Spirit of God.
Therefore, I believe, as stated in comments long ago, that unless we first have an understanding of what is said in the Word (as those who are born of God), we have little hope of correctly 'connecting the dots', so to speak, & very likely would come up with all sorts of interpretations: person A saying this & person B saying that - both claiming to be "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" & never finding agreement. The road to correct understanding maybe long & arduous, but must be based first on what the Word of God plainly tells us and then as we progress in our reading/study, the Spirit will bring to mind how the Scriptures correctly fit together. This then is how I understand "comparing spiritual things with spiritual": it is from the Holy Spirit Who teaches from a Book that is to be read plainly but with a spiritual understanding and application by us.
Thanks for responding.
I'm in the middle of a busy work week,
I have a lot of catching up to do on this current discussion.
I will continue when time permits.
God bless.
Thanks for your reply, I know many have the understanding the sons of God in Genesis 6 are the line of Seth and the daughters of men are of Cain and those not following God. I will just give a little of my understanding not in debate.
Scripture tells us there were Nephilim/giants in the world before and after the flood Genesis 6:4 2 Samuel 21:16 Joshua 12:4 Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Amos 2:9 Also in Joshua 13, 15, 17, 18, 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20 Also, in the Old Testament, there is the Rephaim or Rephaites, and the context describes them as giants. so, where did they come from?
2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1: 6 tell us of a group of angels who left their first estate and are locked in darkness. Many other fallen angels we battle including Satan are on this earth 2 Corinthians 11:14-15. But these angels are locked in darkness until judgment, and we see in Revelation 9:11 they have a king. These angels had to do something far greater than rebelling against God, my understanding is they adulterated God's creation, we see how corrupt it got.
We know from Jude and 2 Peter angels sinned, kept not their first estate, and left their habitation. Estate means condition, status, and dominion, and habitation means residence or dwelling place. I understand how many takes Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 but Jesus is not referring to sex He is saying when we are resurrected, we will be like the angels in heaven who are immortal. We are mortal, we have to marry and reproduce when we are resurrected, we will be raised immortal same as the angels no more need to marry and reproduce, and we will be on the earth not heaven.
We see angels come down on earth that have bodies, they can eat and drink, Genesis 18:1-8 and other places like Hebrews 13:2. To me the angels who left their estate is where these giants came from, and we see when Israel went into the promised land God wiped out the giants or had them kill them all even the children.
God bless,
RLW
So, if I understand you that despite my asking God to forgive me of my sins and become born again, I can't know if I'm going to heaven or hell? The best I can do is hope I'm one of the ones He's already chosen to go to heaven. It doesn't matter what kind of life I live I still might not be chosen by Him and there is a very real possibility that my neighbor who lives like the devil is going because he is one of the chosen? Isn't this is Calvinism a false doctrine and there's no hope in this religion then or in Catholicism another false doctrine. God Bless :)