The everlasting covenant is not merely provisions made under seven days but it is Person specific. God "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."(1 Ti.6:16). Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Abraham's blessing came through Jesus Christ- after his likeness'. The same blessing is now passed on to Isaac, who is the heir of promise. The covenant based on After the Man is the only legal covenant since it is validated by God and the Word. ( John 1:1)
Speaking of the seed in itself, Isaac obeyed God by remaining in Gerar. So the word sent forth by God bore fruit in Isaac. He is after the likeness of Jesus Christ and he stands as a double for him because of the word. if the word worked with Isaac, it similarly must work with every other is it not? Faith is what worked with Isaac who became the heir. " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?/Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."( John 14:9-10)
On day three the provision of the tree bearing fruit referred to believers who stands as double for Jesus Christ. Jesus said, I am the Way" So what is faith with works. Those who follow the way and learn of him, Being branches abiding in him they bear fruits.
Similarly the covenant refers to God dividing the waters above and below the firmament on day two.(Ge.1:6-8)
However much the king of Gerar grudge Isaac regarding the wells his servants had dug, he could not prevail over him. God made the waters available from His store. (26:32-33). The name Beersheba is associated with "Unto this day". The Spirit always has used this phrase in association with Jesus Christ . The covenant worked with Isaac because he was the heir of promise
This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom He doesn't want to save He doesn't save. This sort of action doesn't fit to the idea I have of a God who is a righteous God full of love and mercy for all His creation. I can not also accept a regeneration before faith. We have been having this discussion with brother David and sister GiGi lately. Because again if God does that then He chooses whom He loves and who is going to love Him. But you can't do that. People have personalities, have egos, have free wills which means they follow what they love, and if this is the sinful world, like Lot's wife, God simply doesn't intervene. God tries to make us love Him but without forcing us in any way. When he foreknows that we will believe then He helps us in all possible ways, but again without intervening in our free will. Like a father who talks and talks and talks to his child hoping to make him choose to do the right thing in his life.
About God's external appearance. To me it is really dificult to accept that in Heaven I will have to live with a God who is in a form of a shadow or a cloud or something vague and fluid. When He says that we will see His face I believe that He means it.
Does God has a personal name? People have names so to be distinguised from other people. But God? His names in both OT and NT are descriptive of one of His characteristics, ie Lord of Powers (allmighty), Eternal, Self Existing (Yahweh), Father (in NT). That was also the case with people in ancient times. If you pay attention the names given to new borns were after a characteristic they had, Adam(made of dust), Eve(life), Isaac(lough), John(God's gift), Jesus(Savior) etc. Nowadays this is not the case any more but in those ancient times that was the case. I believe this is the reason that ahe aswered Moses about His name. I believe He meant that " I am who I am, the God, I don't have a name". Just an opinion
Well it sounds strange that God may had felt lonely in the past, but let us think that mankind has been in existence only for the last 6500 years which is not even a droplet in the ocean of God's infinite existence. Surely there were angels around before mankind, but we don't really know for how long. We don't know what was there before the angels were created. Maybe nothing but God. But maybe something.
As you said God who is Love wanted to share His love with other persons, so He created angels and humans. And here is where, I believe, free will comes in. God didn't want robots or programmed computers to live with but individuals with personalities. But once one has a personality of his own, he has a free will as well. And if he has free will, nobody can control him, he does what he wants to do. So both angels and humans can choose whom they wish to love and follow. God can not force them. So some angels rebelled against God, because they simply wanted to do so, not because somebody(God) somehow controlled them and made them sin. Same with humans.
By why did God wanted personalities who only themselves decide what they want to do? Just think, who would like to get married to a woman who was compelled to mary him and had no other option. Nobody, we all like to be with people who love us. Similarly God wanted to share His life with people (and angels) who love Him. So He gives options to people And He tries us in this life and our choice here will follow us in the afterlife, as He also gave options and tried the angels too. It would be very easy for God to appear to mankind, but in such a case everybody would kneel infront of Him, they liked it or not. So what does He do? He keeps Himself in the shadow and tries people. The ones who will eventually respond to His love and love him will become His "wife'(figuratively), His children. This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom not.
May God in His sovereign mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures. Praying constantly that God might open our understanding as we compare scripture with scripture applying the principles that God Himself lays down in His Word.
"Freewill" relative to salvation is not taught in the Bible. God does all the work in accordance with His Will, not our will.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I agree God's angels work in our protection but there are angels on the side of Satan as we see in Daniel 10, battles go on that we do not see and this will continue until Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to earth permanently, in Revelation 12.
In the Bible, we see the possessions of people are done by devils/demons, or unclean spirits, Mark 5:1-5Mark 16:9Matthew 15:22, and others, as in Matthew 8 there was a legion of them in two men and they asked Jesus to cast them into pigs.
I understand rebelling or fallen angels wreak havoc and cause division they will influence, entice, and persuade, people. My understanding is they cannot continue to possess someone, and we will have spiritual battles Ephesians 6:12. I have seen possession of someone, and I had a being lay across me in bed when I awoke it looked like a burlap cloth and its hand over my face. I was able to free my mouth and only said Jesus and it was snatched up and was gone. I can only say it had a body and it was large.
This was in the 90s and during a time when these things happened, I started reading my Bible again and during this time I was saved. My wife and I went to several different churches and in one church the youth group went to an assisted living where my wife worked. She had gotten close to one of the ladies.
My wife was not there when the youth group went on a Saturday, that Sunday the lady over the youth group was telling the church about their visit and said a woman died while they were there. She described it as peaceful, and they were praying. She said the name of the lady and it was the lady my wife was close to, me and my wife both heard the woman say this.
My wife was upset so we left and went by the assisted living and that lady, or no one died. I talked to the preacher, he asked many of the church and no one heard the woman say that this woman died while they were there, we never went back to that church. There were other things.
"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."
God having explained covenant according to the flesh contrasts what it meant as a covenant according to the Law of the Spirit entailed. The Spirit of the everlasting Covenant places Isaac as the heir of promise and not Ishmael. The word "But" reinforces the superlative merit of the blessings conferred on the man in his Son who is his 'only begotten Son. The sign of the Word augurs his everlasting life and blessings of the Son on whom God has from testified,"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."(Matt.3:17)
"And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction." God named indeed Ishamael but his testimony did not come from God as with his Son. According to the flesh his testimony came from his brethren, "And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" as the Angel of the Lord forewarned Hagar. (16:11-12).
God left off talking with Abraham after promising him Isaac as the heir of promise. " Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year" is the seed in itself planted by God. The everlasting covenant under day three is not stating vegetation as part of the covenant but the word of God. The tree of life or tree of righteousness is merely a sign. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." (1:11)
We know the seed requites time to show the kind of tree it shall become. It is what we see in the life of Isaac who totally obeyed God. "And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of."(Ge.26:1-6) "And Isaac dwelt in Gerar."
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal.5:6). Circumcision availeth nothing where God's breath in is has shown us the way. We are to worship him in Spirit and truth. "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."(Ro.8:13)
"And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised"
The seven days in the Covenant refer to the Day that God has appointed for the Son. So of what significance is the eighth day. While the command number Seven signifies completion or whole we have the lower parts where Jesus went in Spirit and preached to the souls in prison. The Psalm of David does not leave the lower parts from God's providential eye. "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth./Thine eyes did see my substance," (Ps.139:15-16). The number Eight has its relevance. The body of four and twenty elders is a memorial ibefore the throne of heaven (8x3). Covenant in short of the flesh shows the way to the life in the Spirit. It is what Jesus offered the nation of Israel."In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."( John 7:37)
"And my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."
What is the purpose of the covenant but concord between two equal parties? Fellowship of God, between the Father and Son is treated as an accord; Both parties being Spirit the Man component on one part does not affect the covenant and it is understood the aspect of flesh on the part of the Son does not affect the other entity. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,/To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Ep.1:5-6). Good pleasure of his will is in harmony with the holiness of God. Holy is his name, to which we shall come anon. Here we are fixing the relevance of flesh in the World of the Spirit where faith is the language. The world unseen and the worlds made to appear have their own colour and speech. We can explain the nature of flesh in terms of the Word which was God.
The word is both sound and a sign. When God sends the Son he is qualified as the only begotten Son meaning that he is a sign and the Son of man consequently explains the Man component which was with God in the beginning.. In v.7 God tells Abraham, "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.". "And to thy seed after thee" is done after he changed the name of Abraham to mean the Father of many nations. So the question of Ishmael born of the bondswoman has to be settled. This 'illicit' union between two parties of unequal position is now being regularised in the covenant. The change of name makes it holy, to be precise. The circumcision as a sign has only validity as much as their flesh is concerned. It is similar to infant baptism, where parents intercede on behalf of the child.
And to also consider the other mystery, of which you addressed: what about the infants, the mentally/physically infirmed, or those who've never heard of Jesus - what is their state before God? Though not clearly revealed to us, except for possible snapshots, we can only entrust these souls to a Merciful God, Who makes no mistakes to the right outcome for all & we do our part to give them every opportunity to hear & respond, if they can. And this has spurred many to go to far-off unreached people groups, hazarding their lives (some having lost theirs), so that others might have an opportunity to hear of God's Love & Forgiveness, & of renewed changed lives.
So, I've tried to address at least most of your points here GiGi; but in relation to your subject, "God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself", I agree that God is Sovereign in every situation & His Will will be performed, but could we also say that His Sovereign Will can only be declared/seen when all His Attributes (some of which are His Mercy, Love, Foreknowledge, Longsuffering, the Gift of Himself in Jesus) must combine together to form that Sovereign Will? Or, is His Will separate from His other Attributes? Something to consider, I think. Blessings & thank you for provoking our thoughts.
So, we have the mystery here: did those at Mars Hill who believed Paul, repent while still unsaved, or were they under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or were they regenerated first so they could repent & believe? From the order you gave, I note that you've written 'Regeneration before Belief, Repentance, Conversion, & Redemption'. Whereas, my order would be, Repentance, Belief, Redemption/Regeneration/Conversion. And as stated elsewhere, my understanding of Regeneration is synonymous with Re-birth. So if one is regenerated before believing & repentance, then why the need for believing & repentance, for he has already been given re-birth & converted?
As far as the creation, the holiness, & the rebellion of some angels are considered, like many things in the Word, it's simply not possible to form hard & fast views & beliefs. But in regard to humanity, as you stated, "Some (humans) to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world", places our understanding at a different level pertaining to angels. If what you believe is truth, then it would be wrong for God to relegate most of humanity, not chosen by Him, to an eternal hell. Why? Because those unfortunate people will have to suffer because God ordained them to suffer. How then does such a belief stand against the Scriptures that say that He is not willing that any should perish? Because He has willed that many will perish. To me this would be incredibly baffling, making God to be an ogre, indiscriminately saving some, causing others of His creation to perish. This I can't accept or reconcile in any other way, than stated elsewhere: that the Gospel comes to all, for all are sinners - what we do as sinners in response, in concert with the Holy Spirit working in the life so touched, fits all the Scriptures much better and makes the preaching of the Gospel all the more necessary & timely (at least the apostles regarded it so).
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
I have covered this topic before but wanted to explore the "commonality" issue as well between these two states. It is sobering to think that the son of perdition; Judas Iscariot himself was so burdened by his betrayal of a "righteous man" that he hung himself. There are a lot of things we can learn from this. He obviously used to his advantage the notoriety of Christ to pilfer moneys that may have been donated anonymously; and perhaps even followed along feeling that it earned him prestige to be able to see such miracles in the presence of Jesus and the other Apostles. Even the enemy of our souls isn't so stupid as to try to directly attack Christ or go beyond what he is granted; but will lead the world to attack Christ at His return. Pride is what causes a fall; in Judas' case; he could have been like Peter and wept because he abandoned Christ; or like the thief on the cross who made a last minute plea at the site of his death a short time later. Pride it would seem kept Judas from confessing his sin to the rest of the Disciples; or asking God for forgiveness. It is possible that he genuinely felt bad for seeing the suffering that was inflicted on Christ from a human level or perspective. Many professing Christians may not even have such emotions that they should about Christ's suffering as a man.
We all; of course to be saved have to have Godly sorrow which takes into account God's Holiness and Christ being the Son of God; part of the Godhead and what He had to condescend to and suffer more than any other in our behalf. It is LOVE that brings us to true repentance; where His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. In that sense then it is the only way we can truly love ourselves; because we recognize it is He who lives in us. He grants us life before we can ever be made righteous. We all should feel SOMETHING emotionally as a response but only He can free us from ourselves.
His wisdom and counsel is beyond our ability to know and understand; and that we are to submit ourselves to His sovereignty in all these things and trust in Him as truly good, loving, gracious, and merciful. His reasons for choosing as He has are mysterious to us, but in perfect harmony with His nature. And these choices are really His business to act on and not ours to criticize.
I often think that if one must chose to believe the gospel, then what happens to those who have not heard, are too young to understand, or too impaired to discern it, too deaf to hear it, etc. Are all of these damned? I am not aware of any bible verse that speaks of an "age of accountability" for infants and children, nor that they get a pass because they cannot make an informed choice to believe. I do know that Jesus said that we are not to prevent children (including infants) to come unto Him because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, there must be a way for God's saving grace to reach these humans with regeneration and faith even though their understanding is not yet mature enough to fully understand their need to be saved from sin and the content of the gospel. Jesus also said that only those born of water and the Spirit can come into the kingdom. So how does God apply this to infants and children should they die before this "age of accountability" if they are in a state of depravity, dead in sin, separated from God, and unregenerated?
These are very profound things to consider. I know I do not have all of the answers from a biblical perspective. But I do have my viewpoint based on what I do find in Scripture. And in so many ways, a viewpoint is really what any of us have as we search the Scriptures for answers and a mindset that is like that of God in Christ.
I will leave this post for now having brought up some matters that pertain to God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself.
Really the transfiguration answers all these questions. These were in the case of Elijah someone translated who never died; and Moses someone who died but whose burial spot was hidden. Nonetheless; they conversed with each other and with Christ and in some way were made known to the 3 Apostles who saw it (Peter; James and John I believe).
One could argue that Samuel was truly brought up as he spoke the truth to Saul and the witch also seemed shocked. We also have Lazarus and the rich man in hades who also conversed along with Moses again from what I remember.
Finally; we have the saints under the altar in heaven asking how long until justice comes and they were told until their fellowservants deaths were complete. We also will rule and reign with Christ; David will be also there ruling as well and obviously in some way recognizable. We also can look to the conversation of John with a fellowservant (either an angel or a deceased believer) as further evidence.
I feel it is necessary to explore this subject based on first of all the fact that only saved people are in heaven. What is most important is their unique gifting and the fruit of their service as the real essence or meaning of recognition. The outer appearance of course and the old nature is what man sees dying in this present world as we all turn to dust; the fallen state of the soul also is destined for eternity in darkness and confusion. Having been conformed to His image brings uniqueness and meaningfulness to our eternal relationships there.
But the most important aspect of all is the glory of God in being gracious to whom He determines He will be gracious to and merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful to.
So, I will begin with this because this has been on my heart in all of this discussion.
I believe that all that God does concerning creation is to bring glory to Himself. In acting on all of the perfect attributes of His divine nature He not only glorifies Himself within the Trinity, but also displays His glory to all of creation and in all that He does in time and space (all that is outside of Himself).
In my post on His sovereign grace, I spoke of how He allowed sin to dome forth in creation and how He dealt with the angels who sinned and those who did not in the first rebellion of created beings towards God.
I think that most humans would agree that God's election of the angels He would not allow to sin in the rebellion and the damnation of the fallen ones is just and righteous. Most humans have no concern that God did not chose to redeem the fallen angels nor do most humans not question that God in His wisdom and sovereignty chose to elect more angels than not to remain sinless forever.
But when it comes to humanity, humans have more concern and humanitarian attitudes concerning God sovereignly choosing some to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world. It is natural for us to feel concerned why God did not elect everyone, or that there are billions of people who will go into the lake of fire, since He is certainly capable of electing everyone and bringing all to salvation by grace, We can be disturbed by what He chose because we certainly would determine salvation to all instead of for some. This aspect of God's sovereignty baffles me, but I know that I must remember that we are His creatures and He is the Creator; that He is really more not like us than similar to us; cont. to part 3
It has been a busy week with plumbers, construction workers and electricians taking turns at the house. Plus, with the new baby in the house we are taking turns entertaining, holding, and helping her get to sleep until it is time for mom to feed her again.
I wanted to get back to you concerning the present conversation about regeneration, election, predestination, and salvation. This is such an important and worthwhile discussion for all believers.
First of all, we can each be so thankful to God for His sovereign grace towards us of which He saves us. We can be assured that we have been elected by God to receive all of the promises of complete redemption in His Son our Lord, Jesus Christ. So, in a very real way, we are on the other side looking back in time for us as we consider how God worked in our own lives to bring us to salvation. And that is a blessed place to be when considering this topic.
I wrote an entry today about God's sovereignty and His complete freedom in His will to bestow grace to those He would save.
If you read that you may see more of why I believe that regeneration (being born from above (jn, 3: 1-8) precedes us believing the gospel message and trusting Jesus for our salvation.
Tonight I wanted to itemize some terms that have been put forward in this thread and then exchange our views on what these terms mean biblically.
I think the best way to start is to discuss the condition of every human prior to the new birth. So, that term is often spoken of as human depravity.
Then we can speak about God's election from eternity past.
Foreknowing
Predestination,
Election
Then move on to how we come to faith in Jesus.
Calling
Regeneration,
Belief,
Repentance
Conversion
Redemption
Then we could speak about the great unmerited benefits God bestows on those who have become reborn
Hi, I enjoyed reading your discussion and have some further items I'd like to discuss. I think in my original discussion I shared or should have indicated that God is not lonely. Man was not created because God was lonely, I believe God has so much love to share is the reason or cause that He created mankind.
Man, being created in a physical and spiritual form, having ears, eyes, etc. however I don't believe God has these attributes because God was never created he always existed, no one or no thing ever created God. God didn't create himself, he always existed, that's why he said "I am, that I am" in the scripture. Notice in the scripture when God's name was asked, he didn't even provide His name, because it was, I believe too holy for man to hear let alone utter. You'd think if there was a God with this much power mankind would be scrambling to live right, yet that's not the reality for some, and yet to be a reality for "whosoever will." Again this displays God's goodness, God even gives man a free will choice to choose to accept Him.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV
"What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose." Psalms 25:12 KJV
Yes brother you are right that God's purpose in creating mankind was to have somebody to share ... everything He has. Nobody likes to be alone, not even God himself. The way I have understood the whole story of God and man is:
God created us in His image and after His likeness. Usually the "in His image" is interpreted that people are similar to God in certain characteristics like love, freedom, sadness, joy, feelings, cleverness, creativity, etc. Some, like me, believe that God's external appearance is similar to ours. God has a head, hands, feet, mouth, ears, etc. Some other christians do not agree.
The "after His likeness" is usually interpreted that God made people in order to become like Him in character. So in the garden of Eden God was coming in the afternoons and was talking to Adam and Eve. In that way Adam and his wife would start knowing God and learn what God feels, what He thinks, what He considers right/wrong, fair/unfair and so in the holy state they were they would come closer to God eventually becoming like Him in character. But after their fall that procedure stopped and now people were following and becoming similar to somebody else, the satan. God offered us a way out of sin, but the whole story doesn't end here. We are given His spirit to produce a fruit, thus aquiring the characteristics of His character. This is the narrow road after His commandments.. And we know what God is like because Jesus told us and of course God's character shows in Christ who is God Himself.
But, if we will become something like little Gods, I don't really know, there are many objections to that.
And you are right again that we have to accept God's gift of salvation to be saved, it is not an automatic process for all people. You accept His offer and you are given it, you don't accept it and you are not be given it. And after we have been saved we have to walk all the way to the end to be given what we were promised, the salvation of our souls. GBU
Goliath's height according to the Septuagint was 4 cubits and a span. that makes him about 6 foot 9 (2.06m) which is a normal height for basketball players nowadays. As Jaz said in the past people were a lot smaller than today. A few years ago as I was visiting an archaeological museum, for the first time I noticed that the helmets of ancient warriors were very small thus indicating that people at that time were a lot smaller than today. A guy 6 foot 9 would seem to them like a high tree without any doubt. One time I stood infront of a guy who was 7 foot tall. I felt really really tiny.
Anyway, you wrote, "Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then"
Do you mean that the angels of God can attack a human. Why? What for? They are supposed to protect us, not harm us. Would you like to write a bit more about those confrontations you mentioned? Unless you wouldn't like to remember them again. GBU
Sara was the spouse of Abraham. God willed a new name to accord her as the Mother of many nations where faith establishes her place in the everlasting covenant.
First we shall take up the new name given to Sarah which merits our attention. She typifies the Sister-spouse conundrum as Eve was taken out Adam and also typifies the Bride the church, so she is created after the likeness of Jesus Christ. So she has her own place as Abraham in the everlasting covenant. Notice the emphasis on 'indeed' in the verse quoted below. "Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."(v.19). She as sister was counted as the mother of many nations.She is also a hero of faith and listed accordingly in the list of heroes of faith.(He.11;11-12). She as spouse also has a role, "and she shall be a mother of nations" (v.16) "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord:."(1 Pe.3:6)
She stands in comparison with Hagar her handmaid. " For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman./But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise." (Gal.4:21-22) Of the seed of Abraham Sarah is the mother of those born after the Spirit. Faith is what required of them. Whereas for those born after the flesh, the rite of circumcision is a sign. So we shall come to the covenant with Abraham with regards to 'thy seed' " which is compared to, "And as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." When the beast arises out of the sea we know that it is associated with the end times. "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,"(Re.13:1)
With regards to Ishamael God had already determined his role so the Angel of the Lord counsels her," Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.: ( Ge. 15:9; 21:12-13)
He is the highest of High, the Best of all, the Supreme Being over all others. Highest in magnitude, Greatest of all that exists.
There is no one Holy like the Lord. He is above and beyond all creation in glory, majesty, beauty, perfect in every way. He stands alone as the only God that exists and is to be worshipped whole-heartedly because He is worthy to receive all of our adoration and praise. All of His creation bows to Him as their Maker, Sustainer, Provider, and Life Source.
We should have a high view of God, esteeming Him more than anything that our heart could love. We should be awed by His glorious Presence as was the case of Isaiah when he saw the Lord in His heavenly temple (IS. 6) exalted and praised by all of the heavenly beings. Someday we will see His face and we will be stunned, amazed, enthralled, and overflowing with joy by His countenance displayed for us to behold.
Even though God is superlative and highly exalted, we know that He humbled Himself to become human like us through the divine Son. Jesus is Emmanuel (God with us) and while on earth He was approachable, humble, and ordinary to mankind. But within the human body of Jesus divinity shared in humanity. We cannot even comprehend the greatest humility of all beings Jesus took on when He left His Father to incarnate in human flesh to save us.
When we see Jesus in eternity He will be the most glorious being we will ever behold. We will see His divinity and His glorified humanity completely unveiled and be amazed by Him.
I am so looking forward to this! Whereas in His earthly life He was not highly esteemed, nor seen as beautiful, but in His glory, He will be incomparable and unparalleled in glory and majesty. We will see Him as He truly iis eternally and superlatively.
Thank you for that Ronald , I have been mistaken then . I always thought that a cubit was a measurement from wrist to elbow of the average male of the time , and a span from the tip of the middle finger to the tip of the thumb of an extended male hand , therefore coming to about six feet ( six cubits ) six inches ( one span ) . Not sure where I got this information to be honest but I stand corrected .
I'm sure that God made Goliath as tall as he was on purpose , knowing that in the future a stripling of a boy would fell this giant and impress all of his peers , I have no doubt that giants existed but I'm sure they were just very tall humans , some sort of genetic mutation perhaps , and I do know that people were on average very much shorter than they are now .
If we think of Saul , part of the reason the Israelites wanted him as their king was because they were impressed by his height , we aren't told how tall he was just that he was head and shoulders above every other man in Israel . Goliath must have been even taller than Saul . I don't believe that giants were mythical , just tall people . Tall people are very common these days but I'm guessing not so much several thousand years ago and the opportunity to meet one would have been very limited in those days so I'm guessing they caused quite a stir by their appearance . At the end of the day , God created all flesh , as it is and as He wants it to be . There are no mythical creatures , just God's handiwork .
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."
The same covenant God renewed with Noah we have in the key text. "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" (9:15)
Before we go into the topic proper we have a verse to keep in mind. "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."(v.5
With Abraham it is stated in three parts. 1) The covenant is between God and Man 2): "And thee" as the man in the Man component. 3) And thy seed "after thee" The phrase is in keeping with 'after his likeness". So Jesus Christ in the generation of Jesus Christ is the son of Abraham. (Matt.1:1) This is further validated by change in the name of Abram to Abraham so the name of Jesus Christ as the Son over his house has pre-eminence.
Christ Jesus "And was made in the likeness of men:/And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:/That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;/And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."(Ph.2:2:7-11)
The covenant is an everlasting covenant which serves as the matrix of divine Will concerning the body. The firstborn is mine"
"Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem." (Nu.18:15)
We have this applied to the Law of Moses. Similarly for the Gentiles. Firstborn of every creature. ( Col 1:14-17)
Instead of fire the Spirit uses a burning lamp between 'those pieces' Abraham offered . The Spirit refers to the seed of Abraham on one part "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."(He.11:12) So the division of the seed are up and down where the blessing assured by the everlasting covenant brings the heirs to fruition. The principle 'You shall know them by fruits' works; Similarly the great commission of the risen Christ works across. By principle of Association the Gospel spreads uttermosts parts.
God refers the nation of Israel specifically in v.13: "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;" and in v.17 God refers to the ten nations between two rivers. The Gentiles as well as the nation of Israel are called under the covenant to blessed in the Son.
A covenant is not one way pact. Israel failed on their part.
"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."
The day refers to the day decreed for his Son. Jesus Christ having fulfilled his ministry on the earth tells his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."(Matt.28:18-20; Ac.1:8). So unto this seed have I given this land does not mean it is given to the nation of Israel. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Col.1:19-20) This the sacrifice demanded of Abraham needs to be studied in detail. Abraham's frustration of not having a heir of his own God could appreciate. So he specifies how he was to offer his sacrifice. In v.9 "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." The command number Three is a tag for his Son. When God would descend upon him in token of a pledge he does one curious thing. "Behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.(v.17). The smoking furnace we associate with God when he descended upon Mount Sinai,-("And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace,-Ex.19:18) ) as well as when the bottomless pit was opened. "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace."(Re.9:2)
"Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:/For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
The Spirit ties God's promise mentioned earlier in 12:3 in direct frame of reference to the covenant, The covenant is between God and Man. The usage of "And to thy seed forever" signifies Abraham serves as a double for Jesus Christ. As Adam and Noah were earlier. After the great flood the same covenant was repeated where "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" included every living creature. There was no alteration but brought the role of His creation into focus that was all. The phrase 'I will remember' was to point out that it was the same covenant God was referring to. (9:15). In the case of the expression " forever" places emphasis on Jesus Christ. The earth abides forever since the Son represents the visible world made to appear. Later God states "The land is mine" which being the case the phrase cannot have any other meaning.
As in the case of the covenant God separated the light from darkness. Here the Spirit sets the covenant in terms of the land. "Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other." (The significance of going east has not changed. While he moved to Sodom we have Abraham left to trust God solely for the rest of his life.
What does his seed signify? "All families" consist more than Israel. "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." The same blessings in Ge.1:28 on man who is created 'after our image and after our likeness'. This blessing is not on nation but man who is in the Man component. Faith is the key. On the basis there are two nations children of darkness, "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth" (13:16) and as stars, "So shall thy seed be."(15:5)
"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
God wanted Abraham to walk him as his forefathers Noah and Enoch did. So he had to walk with Him in fully trusting him.
At a time human migrations were looking for greener pastures and new lands to conquer God wanted him to get out of his comfort zone and 'unto a land that I will shew thee." The Spirit has showed us what he had in mind. "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be./And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."(15:5-6). In the epistle to the Hebrews we know that his walk with God was into the light while the rest of the world were moving farther into darkness. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."(He.11:8-10)
The people moving towards the east had one speech and it was their will worship. Building the tower in the plains of Shinar was a fiasco. No they were not put off but wanted to impose their own will and build a kingdom. Did it augur well? They were moving into darkness and at the time of Jesus we are told that, it had settled over them. "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. "(Matt.4:15-16)
Meanwhile Abraham had to much to learn with regards to the life in the Spirit. His utter frustration in not having a seed of his own as against what God had promised. How well he respected the article of faith is what the Spirit teaches us with the life of Abraham.
In some ways, Scripture seems to teach that God's election was based on His foreknowledge of all things and in other ways, Scripture also teaches that God did not choose any of us because of anything that we do or say. because His choice is freely chosen within His uninfluenced sovereign will. I cannot say that I truly know which is correct or if both are somehow correct.
But I know that Scripture does say that salvation is completely a work of God to us, not at all of ourselves in any way, lest we should have anything to boast of in this matter. God gets all the glory and credit for our salvation. We are the recipients for His mercy and grace not the ones who initiate its release to us.
I think that the hardest part of God's Sovereignty for many believers and unbelievers is, if God desires all humans to be saved, why He does not save everyone. He certainly has the power and authority to freely choose to do so. But He does not, and we feel the anguish of realizing that billions of humans will not be saved, more will enter eternity unsaved that save, for narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and wide is the way to eternal destruction. Why would God have this be so? We just do not know. Yet as believers we must trust that His sovereign ways are just and true and righteous and without any form of malice, desire to see anyone to be condemned to eternal punishment, or favorites. How do we square with that knowledge of God as the Eternal Sovereign? I really do not have an answer because the counsels of God are beyond us finding out.
So, let us let God be God and ourselves be unworthy of all His goodness given to us in Christ Jesus.
The everlasting covenant is not merely provisions made under seven days but it is Person specific. God "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."(1 Ti.6:16). Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. Abraham's blessing came through Jesus Christ- after his likeness'. The same blessing is now passed on to Isaac, who is the heir of promise. The covenant based on After the Man is the only legal covenant since it is validated by God and the Word. ( John 1:1)
Speaking of the seed in itself, Isaac obeyed God by remaining in Gerar. So the word sent forth by God bore fruit in Isaac. He is after the likeness of Jesus Christ and he stands as a double for him because of the word. if the word worked with Isaac, it similarly must work with every other is it not? Faith is what worked with Isaac who became the heir. " He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?/Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."( John 14:9-10)
On day three the provision of the tree bearing fruit referred to believers who stands as double for Jesus Christ. Jesus said, I am the Way" So what is faith with works. Those who follow the way and learn of him, Being branches abiding in him they bear fruits.
Similarly the covenant refers to God dividing the waters above and below the firmament on day two.(Ge.1:6-8)
However much the king of Gerar grudge Isaac regarding the wells his servants had dug, he could not prevail over him. God made the waters available from His store. (26:32-33). The name Beersheba is associated with "Unto this day". The Spirit always has used this phrase in association with Jesus Christ . The covenant worked with Isaac because he was the heir of promise
This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom He doesn't want to save He doesn't save. This sort of action doesn't fit to the idea I have of a God who is a righteous God full of love and mercy for all His creation. I can not also accept a regeneration before faith. We have been having this discussion with brother David and sister GiGi lately. Because again if God does that then He chooses whom He loves and who is going to love Him. But you can't do that. People have personalities, have egos, have free wills which means they follow what they love, and if this is the sinful world, like Lot's wife, God simply doesn't intervene. God tries to make us love Him but without forcing us in any way. When he foreknows that we will believe then He helps us in all possible ways, but again without intervening in our free will. Like a father who talks and talks and talks to his child hoping to make him choose to do the right thing in his life.
About God's external appearance. To me it is really dificult to accept that in Heaven I will have to live with a God who is in a form of a shadow or a cloud or something vague and fluid. When He says that we will see His face I believe that He means it.
Does God has a personal name? People have names so to be distinguised from other people. But God? His names in both OT and NT are descriptive of one of His characteristics, ie Lord of Powers (allmighty), Eternal, Self Existing (Yahweh), Father (in NT). That was also the case with people in ancient times. If you pay attention the names given to new borns were after a characteristic they had, Adam(made of dust), Eve(life), Isaac(lough), John(God's gift), Jesus(Savior) etc. Nowadays this is not the case any more but in those ancient times that was the case. I believe this is the reason that ahe aswered Moses about His name. I believe He meant that " I am who I am, the God, I don't have a name". Just an opinion
Well it sounds strange that God may had felt lonely in the past, but let us think that mankind has been in existence only for the last 6500 years which is not even a droplet in the ocean of God's infinite existence. Surely there were angels around before mankind, but we don't really know for how long. We don't know what was there before the angels were created. Maybe nothing but God. But maybe something.
As you said God who is Love wanted to share His love with other persons, so He created angels and humans. And here is where, I believe, free will comes in. God didn't want robots or programmed computers to live with but individuals with personalities. But once one has a personality of his own, he has a free will as well. And if he has free will, nobody can control him, he does what he wants to do. So both angels and humans can choose whom they wish to love and follow. God can not force them. So some angels rebelled against God, because they simply wanted to do so, not because somebody(God) somehow controlled them and made them sin. Same with humans.
By why did God wanted personalities who only themselves decide what they want to do? Just think, who would like to get married to a woman who was compelled to mary him and had no other option. Nobody, we all like to be with people who love us. Similarly God wanted to share His life with people (and angels) who love Him. So He gives options to people And He tries us in this life and our choice here will follow us in the afterlife, as He also gave options and tried the angels too. It would be very easy for God to appear to mankind, but in such a case everybody would kneel infront of Him, they liked it or not. So what does He do? He keeps Himself in the shadow and tries people. The ones who will eventually respond to His love and love him will become His "wife'(figuratively), His children. This is why I cannot accept a predestined choice of God, which means whom He wants to save He saves and whom not.
May God in His sovereign mercy lead us into truth as we search the scriptures. Praying constantly that God might open our understanding as we compare scripture with scripture applying the principles that God Himself lays down in His Word.
"Freewill" relative to salvation is not taught in the Bible. God does all the work in accordance with His Will, not our will.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I agree God's angels work in our protection but there are angels on the side of Satan as we see in Daniel 10, battles go on that we do not see and this will continue until Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to earth permanently, in Revelation 12.
In the Bible, we see the possessions of people are done by devils/demons, or unclean spirits, Mark 5:1-5 Mark 16:9 Matthew 15:22, and others, as in Matthew 8 there was a legion of them in two men and they asked Jesus to cast them into pigs.
I understand rebelling or fallen angels wreak havoc and cause division they will influence, entice, and persuade, people. My understanding is they cannot continue to possess someone, and we will have spiritual battles Ephesians 6:12. I have seen possession of someone, and I had a being lay across me in bed when I awoke it looked like a burlap cloth and its hand over my face. I was able to free my mouth and only said Jesus and it was snatched up and was gone. I can only say it had a body and it was large.
This was in the 90s and during a time when these things happened, I started reading my Bible again and during this time I was saved. My wife and I went to several different churches and in one church the youth group went to an assisted living where my wife worked. She had gotten close to one of the ladies.
My wife was not there when the youth group went on a Saturday, that Sunday the lady over the youth group was telling the church about their visit and said a woman died while they were there. She described it as peaceful, and they were praying. She said the name of the lady and it was the lady my wife was close to, me and my wife both heard the woman say this.
My wife was upset so we left and went by the assisted living and that lady, or no one died. I talked to the preacher, he asked many of the church and no one heard the woman say that this woman died while they were there, we never went back to that church. There were other things.
God bless,
RLW
"But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."
God having explained covenant according to the flesh contrasts what it meant as a covenant according to the Law of the Spirit entailed. The Spirit of the everlasting Covenant places Isaac as the heir of promise and not Ishmael. The word "But" reinforces the superlative merit of the blessings conferred on the man in his Son who is his 'only begotten Son. The sign of the Word augurs his everlasting life and blessings of the Son on whom God has from testified,"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."(Matt.3:17)
"And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction." God named indeed Ishamael but his testimony did not come from God as with his Son. According to the flesh his testimony came from his brethren, "And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" as the Angel of the Lord forewarned Hagar. (16:11-12).
God left off talking with Abraham after promising him Isaac as the heir of promise. " Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year" is the seed in itself planted by God. The everlasting covenant under day three is not stating vegetation as part of the covenant but the word of God. The tree of life or tree of righteousness is merely a sign. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." (1:11)
We know the seed requites time to show the kind of tree it shall become. It is what we see in the life of Isaac who totally obeyed God. "And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of."(Ge.26:1-6) "And Isaac dwelt in Gerar."
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal.5:6). Circumcision availeth nothing where God's breath in is has shown us the way. We are to worship him in Spirit and truth. "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."(Ro.8:13)
"And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised"
The seven days in the Covenant refer to the Day that God has appointed for the Son. So of what significance is the eighth day. While the command number Seven signifies completion or whole we have the lower parts where Jesus went in Spirit and preached to the souls in prison. The Psalm of David does not leave the lower parts from God's providential eye. "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth./Thine eyes did see my substance," (Ps.139:15-16). The number Eight has its relevance. The body of four and twenty elders is a memorial ibefore the throne of heaven (8x3). Covenant in short of the flesh shows the way to the life in the Spirit. It is what Jesus offered the nation of Israel."In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."( John 7:37)
"And my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."
What is the purpose of the covenant but concord between two equal parties? Fellowship of God, between the Father and Son is treated as an accord; Both parties being Spirit the Man component on one part does not affect the covenant and it is understood the aspect of flesh on the part of the Son does not affect the other entity. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,/To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Ep.1:5-6). Good pleasure of his will is in harmony with the holiness of God. Holy is his name, to which we shall come anon. Here we are fixing the relevance of flesh in the World of the Spirit where faith is the language. The world unseen and the worlds made to appear have their own colour and speech. We can explain the nature of flesh in terms of the Word which was God.
The word is both sound and a sign. When God sends the Son he is qualified as the only begotten Son meaning that he is a sign and the Son of man consequently explains the Man component which was with God in the beginning.. In v.7 God tells Abraham, "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.". "And to thy seed after thee" is done after he changed the name of Abraham to mean the Father of many nations. So the question of Ishmael born of the bondswoman has to be settled. This 'illicit' union between two parties of unequal position is now being regularised in the covenant. The change of name makes it holy, to be precise. The circumcision as a sign has only validity as much as their flesh is concerned. It is similar to infant baptism, where parents intercede on behalf of the child.
And to also consider the other mystery, of which you addressed: what about the infants, the mentally/physically infirmed, or those who've never heard of Jesus - what is their state before God? Though not clearly revealed to us, except for possible snapshots, we can only entrust these souls to a Merciful God, Who makes no mistakes to the right outcome for all & we do our part to give them every opportunity to hear & respond, if they can. And this has spurred many to go to far-off unreached people groups, hazarding their lives (some having lost theirs), so that others might have an opportunity to hear of God's Love & Forgiveness, & of renewed changed lives.
So, I've tried to address at least most of your points here GiGi; but in relation to your subject, "God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself", I agree that God is Sovereign in every situation & His Will will be performed, but could we also say that His Sovereign Will can only be declared/seen when all His Attributes (some of which are His Mercy, Love, Foreknowledge, Longsuffering, the Gift of Himself in Jesus) must combine together to form that Sovereign Will? Or, is His Will separate from His other Attributes? Something to consider, I think. Blessings & thank you for provoking our thoughts.
So, we have the mystery here: did those at Mars Hill who believed Paul, repent while still unsaved, or were they under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or were they regenerated first so they could repent & believe? From the order you gave, I note that you've written 'Regeneration before Belief, Repentance, Conversion, & Redemption'. Whereas, my order would be, Repentance, Belief, Redemption/Regeneration/Conversion. And as stated elsewhere, my understanding of Regeneration is synonymous with Re-birth. So if one is regenerated before believing & repentance, then why the need for believing & repentance, for he has already been given re-birth & converted?
As far as the creation, the holiness, & the rebellion of some angels are considered, like many things in the Word, it's simply not possible to form hard & fast views & beliefs. But in regard to humanity, as you stated, "Some (humans) to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world", places our understanding at a different level pertaining to angels. If what you believe is truth, then it would be wrong for God to relegate most of humanity, not chosen by Him, to an eternal hell. Why? Because those unfortunate people will have to suffer because God ordained them to suffer. How then does such a belief stand against the Scriptures that say that He is not willing that any should perish? Because He has willed that many will perish. To me this would be incredibly baffling, making God to be an ogre, indiscriminately saving some, causing others of His creation to perish. This I can't accept or reconcile in any other way, than stated elsewhere: that the Gospel comes to all, for all are sinners - what we do as sinners in response, in concert with the Holy Spirit working in the life so touched, fits all the Scriptures much better and makes the preaching of the Gospel all the more necessary & timely (at least the apostles regarded it so).
Onto Page 3.
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
I have covered this topic before but wanted to explore the "commonality" issue as well between these two states. It is sobering to think that the son of perdition; Judas Iscariot himself was so burdened by his betrayal of a "righteous man" that he hung himself. There are a lot of things we can learn from this. He obviously used to his advantage the notoriety of Christ to pilfer moneys that may have been donated anonymously; and perhaps even followed along feeling that it earned him prestige to be able to see such miracles in the presence of Jesus and the other Apostles. Even the enemy of our souls isn't so stupid as to try to directly attack Christ or go beyond what he is granted; but will lead the world to attack Christ at His return. Pride is what causes a fall; in Judas' case; he could have been like Peter and wept because he abandoned Christ; or like the thief on the cross who made a last minute plea at the site of his death a short time later. Pride it would seem kept Judas from confessing his sin to the rest of the Disciples; or asking God for forgiveness. It is possible that he genuinely felt bad for seeing the suffering that was inflicted on Christ from a human level or perspective. Many professing Christians may not even have such emotions that they should about Christ's suffering as a man.
We all; of course to be saved have to have Godly sorrow which takes into account God's Holiness and Christ being the Son of God; part of the Godhead and what He had to condescend to and suffer more than any other in our behalf. It is LOVE that brings us to true repentance; where His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. In that sense then it is the only way we can truly love ourselves; because we recognize it is He who lives in us. He grants us life before we can ever be made righteous. We all should feel SOMETHING emotionally as a response but only He can free us from ourselves.
Agape.
Pt. 3
His wisdom and counsel is beyond our ability to know and understand; and that we are to submit ourselves to His sovereignty in all these things and trust in Him as truly good, loving, gracious, and merciful. His reasons for choosing as He has are mysterious to us, but in perfect harmony with His nature. And these choices are really His business to act on and not ours to criticize.
I often think that if one must chose to believe the gospel, then what happens to those who have not heard, are too young to understand, or too impaired to discern it, too deaf to hear it, etc. Are all of these damned? I am not aware of any bible verse that speaks of an "age of accountability" for infants and children, nor that they get a pass because they cannot make an informed choice to believe. I do know that Jesus said that we are not to prevent children (including infants) to come unto Him because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, there must be a way for God's saving grace to reach these humans with regeneration and faith even though their understanding is not yet mature enough to fully understand their need to be saved from sin and the content of the gospel. Jesus also said that only those born of water and the Spirit can come into the kingdom. So how does God apply this to infants and children should they die before this "age of accountability" if they are in a state of depravity, dead in sin, separated from God, and unregenerated?
These are very profound things to consider. I know I do not have all of the answers from a biblical perspective. But I do have my viewpoint based on what I do find in Scripture. And in so many ways, a viewpoint is really what any of us have as we search the Scriptures for answers and a mindset that is like that of God in Christ.
I will leave this post for now having brought up some matters that pertain to God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself.
Have a good day in Aus.
One could argue that Samuel was truly brought up as he spoke the truth to Saul and the witch also seemed shocked. We also have Lazarus and the rich man in hades who also conversed along with Moses again from what I remember.
Finally; we have the saints under the altar in heaven asking how long until justice comes and they were told until their fellowservants deaths were complete. We also will rule and reign with Christ; David will be also there ruling as well and obviously in some way recognizable. We also can look to the conversation of John with a fellowservant (either an angel or a deceased believer) as further evidence.
I feel it is necessary to explore this subject based on first of all the fact that only saved people are in heaven. What is most important is their unique gifting and the fruit of their service as the real essence or meaning of recognition. The outer appearance of course and the old nature is what man sees dying in this present world as we all turn to dust; the fallen state of the soul also is destined for eternity in darkness and confusion. Having been conformed to His image brings uniqueness and meaningfulness to our eternal relationships there.
Hope this helps.
Agape; Rich P
Pt. 2
But the most important aspect of all is the glory of God in being gracious to whom He determines He will be gracious to and merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful to.
So, I will begin with this because this has been on my heart in all of this discussion.
I believe that all that God does concerning creation is to bring glory to Himself. In acting on all of the perfect attributes of His divine nature He not only glorifies Himself within the Trinity, but also displays His glory to all of creation and in all that He does in time and space (all that is outside of Himself).
In my post on His sovereign grace, I spoke of how He allowed sin to dome forth in creation and how He dealt with the angels who sinned and those who did not in the first rebellion of created beings towards God.
I think that most humans would agree that God's election of the angels He would not allow to sin in the rebellion and the damnation of the fallen ones is just and righteous. Most humans have no concern that God did not chose to redeem the fallen angels nor do most humans not question that God in His wisdom and sovereignty chose to elect more angels than not to remain sinless forever.
But when it comes to humanity, humans have more concern and humanitarian attitudes concerning God sovereignly choosing some to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world. It is natural for us to feel concerned why God did not elect everyone, or that there are billions of people who will go into the lake of fire, since He is certainly capable of electing everyone and bringing all to salvation by grace, We can be disturbed by what He chose because we certainly would determine salvation to all instead of for some. This aspect of God's sovereignty baffles me, but I know that I must remember that we are His creatures and He is the Creator; that He is really more not like us than similar to us; cont. to part 3
It has been a busy week with plumbers, construction workers and electricians taking turns at the house. Plus, with the new baby in the house we are taking turns entertaining, holding, and helping her get to sleep until it is time for mom to feed her again.
I wanted to get back to you concerning the present conversation about regeneration, election, predestination, and salvation. This is such an important and worthwhile discussion for all believers.
First of all, we can each be so thankful to God for His sovereign grace towards us of which He saves us. We can be assured that we have been elected by God to receive all of the promises of complete redemption in His Son our Lord, Jesus Christ. So, in a very real way, we are on the other side looking back in time for us as we consider how God worked in our own lives to bring us to salvation. And that is a blessed place to be when considering this topic.
I wrote an entry today about God's sovereignty and His complete freedom in His will to bestow grace to those He would save.
If you read that you may see more of why I believe that regeneration (being born from above (jn, 3: 1-8) precedes us believing the gospel message and trusting Jesus for our salvation.
Tonight I wanted to itemize some terms that have been put forward in this thread and then exchange our views on what these terms mean biblically.
I think the best way to start is to discuss the condition of every human prior to the new birth. So, that term is often spoken of as human depravity.
Then we can speak about God's election from eternity past.
Foreknowing
Predestination,
Election
Then move on to how we come to faith in Jesus.
Calling
Regeneration,
Belief,
Repentance
Conversion
Redemption
Then we could speak about the great unmerited benefits God bestows on those who have become reborn
forgiveness of sins
justification
adoption as children of God
sanctification
glorification
Man, being created in a physical and spiritual form, having ears, eyes, etc. however I don't believe God has these attributes because God was never created he always existed, no one or no thing ever created God. God didn't create himself, he always existed, that's why he said "I am, that I am" in the scripture. Notice in the scripture when God's name was asked, he didn't even provide His name, because it was, I believe too holy for man to hear let alone utter. You'd think if there was a God with this much power mankind would be scrambling to live right, yet that's not the reality for some, and yet to be a reality for "whosoever will." Again this displays God's goodness, God even gives man a free will choice to choose to accept Him.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV
"What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose." Psalms 25:12 KJV
(will share more discussion later)
Yes brother you are right that God's purpose in creating mankind was to have somebody to share ... everything He has. Nobody likes to be alone, not even God himself. The way I have understood the whole story of God and man is:
God created us in His image and after His likeness. Usually the "in His image" is interpreted that people are similar to God in certain characteristics like love, freedom, sadness, joy, feelings, cleverness, creativity, etc. Some, like me, believe that God's external appearance is similar to ours. God has a head, hands, feet, mouth, ears, etc. Some other christians do not agree.
The "after His likeness" is usually interpreted that God made people in order to become like Him in character. So in the garden of Eden God was coming in the afternoons and was talking to Adam and Eve. In that way Adam and his wife would start knowing God and learn what God feels, what He thinks, what He considers right/wrong, fair/unfair and so in the holy state they were they would come closer to God eventually becoming like Him in character. But after their fall that procedure stopped and now people were following and becoming similar to somebody else, the satan. God offered us a way out of sin, but the whole story doesn't end here. We are given His spirit to produce a fruit, thus aquiring the characteristics of His character. This is the narrow road after His commandments.. And we know what God is like because Jesus told us and of course God's character shows in Christ who is God Himself.
But, if we will become something like little Gods, I don't really know, there are many objections to that.
And you are right again that we have to accept God's gift of salvation to be saved, it is not an automatic process for all people. You accept His offer and you are given it, you don't accept it and you are not be given it. And after we have been saved we have to walk all the way to the end to be given what we were promised, the salvation of our souls. GBU
Goliath's height according to the Septuagint was 4 cubits and a span. that makes him about 6 foot 9 (2.06m) which is a normal height for basketball players nowadays. As Jaz said in the past people were a lot smaller than today. A few years ago as I was visiting an archaeological museum, for the first time I noticed that the helmets of ancient warriors were very small thus indicating that people at that time were a lot smaller than today. A guy 6 foot 9 would seem to them like a high tree without any doubt. One time I stood infront of a guy who was 7 foot tall. I felt really really tiny.
Anyway, you wrote, "Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then"
Do you mean that the angels of God can attack a human. Why? What for? They are supposed to protect us, not harm us. Would you like to write a bit more about those confrontations you mentioned? Unless you wouldn't like to remember them again. GBU
Sara was the spouse of Abraham. God willed a new name to accord her as the Mother of many nations where faith establishes her place in the everlasting covenant.
First we shall take up the new name given to Sarah which merits our attention. She typifies the Sister-spouse conundrum as Eve was taken out Adam and also typifies the Bride the church, so she is created after the likeness of Jesus Christ. So she has her own place as Abraham in the everlasting covenant. Notice the emphasis on 'indeed' in the verse quoted below. "Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."(v.19). She as sister was counted as the mother of many nations.She is also a hero of faith and listed accordingly in the list of heroes of faith.(He.11;11-12). She as spouse also has a role, "and she shall be a mother of nations" (v.16) "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord:."(1 Pe.3:6)
She stands in comparison with Hagar her handmaid. " For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman./But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise." (Gal.4:21-22) Of the seed of Abraham Sarah is the mother of those born after the Spirit. Faith is what required of them. Whereas for those born after the flesh, the rite of circumcision is a sign. So we shall come to the covenant with Abraham with regards to 'thy seed' " which is compared to, "And as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." When the beast arises out of the sea we know that it is associated with the end times. "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,"(Re.13:1)
With regards to Ishamael God had already determined his role so the Angel of the Lord counsels her," Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.: ( Ge. 15:9; 21:12-13)
God is SUPERLATIVE
He is the highest of High, the Best of all, the Supreme Being over all others. Highest in magnitude, Greatest of all that exists.
There is no one Holy like the Lord. He is above and beyond all creation in glory, majesty, beauty, perfect in every way. He stands alone as the only God that exists and is to be worshipped whole-heartedly because He is worthy to receive all of our adoration and praise. All of His creation bows to Him as their Maker, Sustainer, Provider, and Life Source.
We should have a high view of God, esteeming Him more than anything that our heart could love. We should be awed by His glorious Presence as was the case of Isaiah when he saw the Lord in His heavenly temple (IS. 6) exalted and praised by all of the heavenly beings. Someday we will see His face and we will be stunned, amazed, enthralled, and overflowing with joy by His countenance displayed for us to behold.
Even though God is superlative and highly exalted, we know that He humbled Himself to become human like us through the divine Son. Jesus is Emmanuel (God with us) and while on earth He was approachable, humble, and ordinary to mankind. But within the human body of Jesus divinity shared in humanity. We cannot even comprehend the greatest humility of all beings Jesus took on when He left His Father to incarnate in human flesh to save us.
When we see Jesus in eternity He will be the most glorious being we will ever behold. We will see His divinity and His glorified humanity completely unveiled and be amazed by Him.
I am so looking forward to this! Whereas in His earthly life He was not highly esteemed, nor seen as beautiful, but in His glory, He will be incomparable and unparalleled in glory and majesty. We will see Him as He truly iis eternally and superlatively.
I'm sure that God made Goliath as tall as he was on purpose , knowing that in the future a stripling of a boy would fell this giant and impress all of his peers , I have no doubt that giants existed but I'm sure they were just very tall humans , some sort of genetic mutation perhaps , and I do know that people were on average very much shorter than they are now .
If we think of Saul , part of the reason the Israelites wanted him as their king was because they were impressed by his height , we aren't told how tall he was just that he was head and shoulders above every other man in Israel . Goliath must have been even taller than Saul . I don't believe that giants were mythical , just tall people . Tall people are very common these days but I'm guessing not so much several thousand years ago and the opportunity to meet one would have been very limited in those days so I'm guessing they caused quite a stir by their appearance . At the end of the day , God created all flesh , as it is and as He wants it to be . There are no mythical creatures , just God's handiwork .
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."
The same covenant God renewed with Noah we have in the key text. "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" (9:15)
Before we go into the topic proper we have a verse to keep in mind. "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."(v.5
With Abraham it is stated in three parts. 1) The covenant is between God and Man 2): "And thee" as the man in the Man component. 3) And thy seed "after thee" The phrase is in keeping with 'after his likeness". So Jesus Christ in the generation of Jesus Christ is the son of Abraham. (Matt.1:1) This is further validated by change in the name of Abram to Abraham so the name of Jesus Christ as the Son over his house has pre-eminence.
Christ Jesus "And was made in the likeness of men:/And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:/That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;/And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."(Ph.2:2:7-11)
The covenant is an everlasting covenant which serves as the matrix of divine Will concerning the body. The firstborn is mine"
"Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem." (Nu.18:15)
We have this applied to the Law of Moses. Similarly for the Gentiles. Firstborn of every creature. ( Col 1:14-17)
Instead of fire the Spirit uses a burning lamp between 'those pieces' Abraham offered . The Spirit refers to the seed of Abraham on one part "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."(He.11:12) So the division of the seed are up and down where the blessing assured by the everlasting covenant brings the heirs to fruition. The principle 'You shall know them by fruits' works; Similarly the great commission of the risen Christ works across. By principle of Association the Gospel spreads uttermosts parts.
God refers the nation of Israel specifically in v.13: "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;" and in v.17 God refers to the ten nations between two rivers. The Gentiles as well as the nation of Israel are called under the covenant to blessed in the Son.
A covenant is not one way pact. Israel failed on their part.
"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."
The day refers to the day decreed for his Son. Jesus Christ having fulfilled his ministry on the earth tells his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."(Matt.28:18-20; Ac.1:8). So unto this seed have I given this land does not mean it is given to the nation of Israel. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Col.1:19-20) This the sacrifice demanded of Abraham needs to be studied in detail. Abraham's frustration of not having a heir of his own God could appreciate. So he specifies how he was to offer his sacrifice. In v.9 "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." The command number Three is a tag for his Son. When God would descend upon him in token of a pledge he does one curious thing. "Behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.(v.17). The smoking furnace we associate with God when he descended upon Mount Sinai,-("And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace,-Ex.19:18) ) as well as when the bottomless pit was opened. "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace."(Re.9:2)
"Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:/For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
The Spirit ties God's promise mentioned earlier in 12:3 in direct frame of reference to the covenant, The covenant is between God and Man. The usage of "And to thy seed forever" signifies Abraham serves as a double for Jesus Christ. As Adam and Noah were earlier. After the great flood the same covenant was repeated where "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" included every living creature. There was no alteration but brought the role of His creation into focus that was all. The phrase 'I will remember' was to point out that it was the same covenant God was referring to. (9:15). In the case of the expression " forever" places emphasis on Jesus Christ. The earth abides forever since the Son represents the visible world made to appear. Later God states "The land is mine" which being the case the phrase cannot have any other meaning.
As in the case of the covenant God separated the light from darkness. Here the Spirit sets the covenant in terms of the land. "Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other." (The significance of going east has not changed. While he moved to Sodom we have Abraham left to trust God solely for the rest of his life.
What does his seed signify? "All families" consist more than Israel. "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." The same blessings in Ge.1:28 on man who is created 'after our image and after our likeness'. This blessing is not on nation but man who is in the Man component. Faith is the key. On the basis there are two nations children of darkness, "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth" (13:16) and as stars, "So shall thy seed be."(15:5)
"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
God wanted Abraham to walk him as his forefathers Noah and Enoch did. So he had to walk with Him in fully trusting him.
At a time human migrations were looking for greener pastures and new lands to conquer God wanted him to get out of his comfort zone and 'unto a land that I will shew thee." The Spirit has showed us what he had in mind. "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be./And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."(15:5-6). In the epistle to the Hebrews we know that his walk with God was into the light while the rest of the world were moving farther into darkness. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."(He.11:8-10)
The people moving towards the east had one speech and it was their will worship. Building the tower in the plains of Shinar was a fiasco. No they were not put off but wanted to impose their own will and build a kingdom. Did it augur well? They were moving into darkness and at the time of Jesus we are told that, it had settled over them. "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. "(Matt.4:15-16)
Meanwhile Abraham had to much to learn with regards to the life in the Spirit. His utter frustration in not having a seed of his own as against what God had promised. How well he respected the article of faith is what the Spirit teaches us with the life of Abraham.
Pt. 3
In some ways, Scripture seems to teach that God's election was based on His foreknowledge of all things and in other ways, Scripture also teaches that God did not choose any of us because of anything that we do or say. because His choice is freely chosen within His uninfluenced sovereign will. I cannot say that I truly know which is correct or if both are somehow correct.
But I know that Scripture does say that salvation is completely a work of God to us, not at all of ourselves in any way, lest we should have anything to boast of in this matter. God gets all the glory and credit for our salvation. We are the recipients for His mercy and grace not the ones who initiate its release to us.
I think that the hardest part of God's Sovereignty for many believers and unbelievers is, if God desires all humans to be saved, why He does not save everyone. He certainly has the power and authority to freely choose to do so. But He does not, and we feel the anguish of realizing that billions of humans will not be saved, more will enter eternity unsaved that save, for narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and wide is the way to eternal destruction. Why would God have this be so? We just do not know. Yet as believers we must trust that His sovereign ways are just and true and righteous and without any form of malice, desire to see anyone to be condemned to eternal punishment, or favorites. How do we square with that knowledge of God as the Eternal Sovereign? I really do not have an answer because the counsels of God are beyond us finding out.
So, let us let God be God and ourselves be unworthy of all His goodness given to us in Christ Jesus.