2 Samuel 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse SAID, and the man who was raised up on high SAID, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, SAID,
2 Samuel 23:1 The Spirit on the LORD (Christ the Spirit of prophecy) SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORDS were in my tongue.
Revelation 19:19 .... for the words of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy .......
All the words in the bible are the words of CHRIST.
All the Psalms are the WORDS of Christ, not David, all the words in the Psalms are prophecies of the kingdom of God.
Man's teachings have destroyed TRUTH.
God Bless You as TRUTH and LIGHT destroys DARKNESS, the works of Satan.
If I may respond to your comment although not addressed directly to me. You say:
" So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision."
I agree that your quote above is what God COMMANDS us to do.
But here in lies the problem.
None of us will do this or even want to do this with our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE SOUL until God "saves" us and gives us a NEW HEART, a NEW SOUL.
This is very clear from the verses I have referenced in previous comments, if you care to review them. And many other verses as well.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching about the Nature of Salvation, we MUST consider mankind's condition APART from Salvation. That we are Spiritually DEAD, that we love this World far more than we love God or our fellow man, that we want what we want; Eph 2 and many other passages.
And that we cannot and will not turn to God with a broken and contrite HEART, recognizing that we are under the Wrath of God because of our sins.
And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life.
A very interesting and enlightening exercise is to look up all the passages where God uses the terms "Whole Heart" or "Whole Soul" or "All Your Heart" or "All Your Soul" which is what God requires.
Which one of us is capable of this in our Spiritually DEAD condition?
Which one of us even does this perfectly, in our whole personality, after receiving a New Heart, becoming Born Again, since our New Soul still resides in an unsaved Body that still lusts after sin, until separated from that Body at death or receiving our Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day?
Hello Brother and thank you for your reply to me and yes I pretty much agree with everything that you've said . I did send a general message about my thoughts on this topic but it hasn't come on the site yet , maybe I said something amiss , I hope not .
Basically the point I made was that God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting , so I do believe that we have free will but we need to consider that God already knows exactly how we will use it throughout all the days of our lives .
Even Jesus did not know everything when he was here on earth the first time , he says to Peter that he has prayed for him ( Peter ) , that his faith fail not . Only God Himself is all knowing , though of course He has now given all power to His Son but even Jesus does not yet know the time hat God will send him back to us . So there are always things that God keeps to Himself for His own reasons .
All we need to do is trust Him , when Jesus is talking about little children coming to God through him , he's speaking metaphorically , in a parable , we are to be as little children , trusting , not doubting our Fathers love for us and wisdom and righteousness , not doubting His Son and the perfect sacrifice that has cleansed us in God's sight . Thanks again for your excellent reply to me , I can't add any more to your sensible words .
God , who of course knows everything beforehand , chose Jacob over Esau , we can't know 100 per cent why God did this but I believe it might have had something to do with Esau marrying into the local heathen girls families . God would already know that Esau would do this from the day that Esau was conceived .
This is where I think we can get confused by the thoughts of free will and predestination .
I believe that God is in charge of His entire creation , I also believe that He knows us before we know our own selves . We have free will for sure but God , in His infinite wisdom knowledge and understanding , knows exactly how we will use it all day every day .
Thinking about this sometimes bends my brain to be honest . However , it is also a massive comfort and strengthener to me to know that , I am never alone , God knows me and loves me and He , in His wisdom , has allowed me a measure of understanding of His Eternal Word , this understanding has helped my faith in Him to grow and grow .
I have faced death more than once . I am so comforted to know that I shall not die until it is His Will for me to do so and He is righteous .
So , I have nothing to fear in this life . This is my faith . Fear is the enemy , if we have faith in Him we should not fear . We are very privileged , thank God for His mercy and love and for allowing each one of us to know something about Him . One day we will all know all , until then we debate , and hopefully continue to learn and grow , the Bible is the living water we all need to keep drinking every day , none of us knows everything , we must remember that and communicate accordingly . Much love to all my fellow Christians on here , it's good to be walking with you all , old and new friends and family in Christ . May God bless us all and keep us together . May we not tare each other apart !
Dear Gigi , the one thing I find most interesting about your beliefs is the one thing that you don't share , why you believe what you do ? Where does your belief , that babies and very young children who die are saved , come from ? I can find no evidence to support this , just the opposite in fact . Please , if it's there in the Bible , tell me where it is , thank you .
I am seeking the Lord in prayer over this latest subject and what has become a plethora of debated doctrinal issues. We need as in all issues to be a Berean; and to make sure we actually understand what scripture; and in these cases the "meat of the Word" actually means. ( 1 Cor. 3:2). In order to contend for the truth we have to make sure that disunity and strife aren't being utilized by the enemy to bring weakness to the brethren and especially that it won't cause any seed of bitterness in us to rise up where we would; for instance not be led to pray for one another as we should. ( Heb. 12:15 actually says "root" of bitterness). In many cases there may be more than one truth; such as man RESPONDING to Christ's gift of repentance through action which is of course necessary as well as "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philippians 2:12). Not only would we be robots if there wasn't some "symbiotic" relationship going on we wouldn't exist at all. In one sense we have to die to self or be "crucified with Christ" ( Gal. 2:20) when we begin to be Born Again; but it is a process of sanctification; which some proceed quickly and others slowly; and most probably in fits and starts of variable length.
I have brought this idea up as is similar to the concept mentioned here of knowing future actions of Jacob and Esau. It would seem Esau is eternally lost; but there were some things even he did to at least stop his plans on destroying Jacob after they met after Jacob's wrestling in the wilderness with the Angel of God. We could look at Moses; for instance who perished along with the rest of the generation; clearly he was a saved man but one error in particular (striking the rock in anger) was enough to keep him from walking into the Promised Land at the end.
We could look at this subject of only some being saved either with total predestined plans of God or His foreknowledge of what men would do.
"'The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau."
The word of God does not err. The risen Jesus was recognised by his voice. "Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master." ( John 20:16).When God commanded "Let there be light" The voice was true and is what made the Son qualify as the true Light. "After our likeness" is the sign and it can be as bread from heaven and as the stone cut not with hands, each of which serves his Father according to His purpose. When God blessed man in his Son the voice was clear and true. "arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me." (27:19) Isaac did not err in his soul. What is soul but the breath of God? God breathed into the nostrils of man he made him a living soul. The Spirit instructs us that every man has received this faculty to hear the voice which is what the ear of faith, or the inner man represents.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." By the same token we have the gift freely received to obey God as Jesus Christ showed. St Paul writes, "but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Ro.5:11-12) How can Calvin speak of limited atonement? It is an outright heresy, a lie.
Jacob a heel catcher and his lied before his Father whos could not go wrong. Isaac as the heir of promise poits out the discrepancy. "The voice is Jacob's, bu the hands ar the hand's of Esau." It is thus the imposter churches have practised their religion. The example of ,"Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." Is he any different than the believers of our times? He did not believe in the whole truth so we have heresies aired in this forum. Limited atonement, Bah! "(Ac,8:9-24)
I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.
Part 2.
Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!
Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.
Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)
Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.
Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.
How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.
What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?
The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!
One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?
I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.
You stated, " If God chose to have you be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for you.
(AS FOR THE OTHERS), infants and very young children can be given faith and believe BUT IT IS NOT IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADULTS.
So, what I gather here is that God with his "sovereign choice' gave you faith and belief at the age of 3 in the same manner as adults.
And you gave the illustration of King David saying that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacognitive way.
Gigi you are referring to Psalms 22:9. Here is how it reads; "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Gigi Psalms 22:1-21 is a portrait of the thoughts of Christ on the cross.
This is not speaking of King David.
Psalms 51:5 is what King David has to say. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Gigi this limited Atonement you are describing now as an Adult, is this also what you believed in when you were 3 years old?
That God 's offering of Christ is only for his elect?
That God will send the rest to hell but somehow, he chose you as a 3-year-old and many others at that age will remain lost and go to Hell.
"Some here do not believe in Hell so please spare me." But you have said you do believe in Hell.
Is this the same knowledge you had when you had the faith, belief, and understanding of an Adult at the age of 3?
Gigi, I remember believing any and everything my parents and grandparents said.
We were brought up and taught about the lord by them as for many people.
However, that faith I had was faith I had in "THEM." My belief was in THEM. The relationship was with THEM, NOT GOD!
A baby doesn't know what denying Christ mean!
My salvation as well as anyone at that age is completely in God's Love and mercy for our youthful understanding.
So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision.
To all those questions it is the responsibility of each one of us to give answers to and take the right decisions and go to God and ask Him to provide His grace to us to accomplish them. Jesus, although a God Himself, took as a human person all the good decisions and walked in the Spirit's power. So you see we are vessels, we are soil, dust, but we are individual personalities as well.
This is how I understand and believe this topic. Now, if I am wrong let the Lord show me the right thing.
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
What is the reason that God selects beforehand some for salvation?
Let's have a look at a famous part of the Bible that is often misunderstood.
Romans 9:11-16,
11For the children (Jacob and Esau) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
OK, so what was the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born?
Was it that Esau was going to be hairy and red so God didn't like his appearance?
Was it that Jacob was going to be maybe handsome so God liked him?
Some will answer saying that we don't know what God had in mind. Don't we really?
If we look at the lives of both what do we see? We see that Jacob loved to grab God's promise to Abraham, and we also see that Esau literally rejected and humiliated that promise considering that promise to be less valuable than a dish of soup. What a humiliation! Similarly Judas thought that Jesus, the Son of God, deserved just 30 pieces of silver. So I ask again. What did God know beforehand about those two so He loved Jacob but hated Esau? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Next question. On what God based His decision to select beforehand Jacob instead of Esau. Not on what He arbitrarily decided but on how those two would respond to His call. Maybe God did something supernatural to make Jacob respond and Esau reject Him? Why would He do that?
Similarly God's selection of each one of us is due to our response to His love which He showed to us by sacrificing His Son. There is no other possible reason
Ge.27:37 "And what shall I do now unto thee, my son?"
One can imagine the dilemma of Isaac as a father to realise that the world he believed as true falling apart in every direction. His wife worked against his interests is a tragedy on the domestic front. No less was his loss of intragenerational trust,- if he could not trust his own son what else could he?. His tragedy was that of his world seen was 'not made of things which do appear.' Such is the case with everyone who made flesh his arm. Prophet Jeremiah was spot on. In Jesus was the life of men, and he said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John6:63) Before we discuss the world of the Spirit we shall juxtapose the dilemma of Isaac with the Father in the world of the Spirit. The Son asks the Father, "Lo I have come to do thy will" God must have responded similarly but with joy so we may according to our human imagination say with St Paul, " (God) who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."(Ep.1:4). In short the world of the Spirit teaches the representational nature so the body that of flesh and blood is near approximation of the heavenly realities. So whosoever embraces it is to live a life of lie. "As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool."(Je.17:11)
So what was Isaac's blessings to both sons in terms of worldly goods? In v.37 Isaac tells Esau, "Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants;" and v.40, "And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck."
The dominion refers to the blessing the Gentiles shall receive in Christ. Truth shall set him free.
Just as a child receiving a gift responds by reaching out to take (or, grab) it, with a smile or a thank you following, the sinner under deep conviction of his sinful state, of deserved punishment, will certainly reach out & give thanks for such a gift from God Who alone can save him. The Work of God has already been completed when Jesus made the payment for sin, nothing more can ever be added to it, not even a sinner's acceptance & appreciation.
I realize that I, and those who have been saved from other religions or a sinful lifestyle, can have a salvation experience that is different to say, as yours, where you were brought up in a Christian home & lived a godly life, increasing in faith & knowledge. I feel that even though the Spirit's Work in each case is the same, it might be very different in the severity of conviction & understanding. For you, you have been faithful to the Lord & His Word from your early years, so regeneration has been early, especially when you came to the age of understanding what sin is & the Gospel that saves - and you embraced that & continued in joy, hope & confidence of your position in Christ. For most others, coming out of a life of sin & false religions, I'm confident that what was a subtle Work of the Holy Spirit in you to save you will be a heart-wrenching, mighty shake-up & revelation from God in others. In either case, regeneration must take place: for me the date is set in stone (Oct 23, 1979), for you, a quieter unnoticeable transition under the Spirit's Ministry in your life. I'll leave it here for now & thanks again.
It appears to be a natural law of transference of human nature, to which God doesn't eradicate when making 'a new creation in Christ', rather giving us His Spirit so we can live this New Life & have the wherewithal to deal with the enemy of our souls. Our sinful human nature still requires this sin-affected body to age & die, but the promise is that our spirits shall live, for they are no longer dead gripped in sin, but new and alive unto God.
Therefore, when I see a new-born babe, I see the little one not as you do (i.e. "God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when they cannot yet believe" and "that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability)". Rather, I see a babe, whatever the religion or heart condition of the parents, as one born in innocence yet with a sinful human nature. What keeps such a one from being rejected by God if there is an early death, is that that sin nature has not been fed yet with sin (a wilful act of sin bringing a response in the heart). So in my mind, 'regeneration' doesn't come up here, as there is no need for re-birth, and no question whether the babe is a part of the elect or not - that if the sin nature has not been fed, all are innocent & will be saved.
Re: "decisional regeneration". I've stated before, even to David0921, that I don't believe that to accept/receive Christ adds to God's redeeming/regenerating Work, nor is that act necessary for God to complete His Work. I believe that since salvation through Christ is God's Gift (in very truth, undeserved) to all, those being drawn & convicted by the Spirit, will respond under such conviction. As mentioned previously, if one is regenerated first so they can respond, it seems to defeat the need to respond, as they have already been regenerated. Onto Page 3.
Thanks GiGi & yes this thread is long & cumbersome - pity to those trying to read it on their phones. What you shared about your early childhood is not dissimilar to mine; for I was brought up in a very godly, Christ-honoring home, taken to Church, attended children's S/School, had devotions/prayer-time at home, & lived according to biblical & parental rules. Only in my late teens, did I go 'off the rails' as my work took me far from home & under the influence of ungodly peers. In other words, what faith & love I had for the Lord earlier had altogether disappeared, preferring my new lifestyle of sin & having no conviction of it.
But in respect of my very early years, my recollection, though limited, was that I was always encouraged to 'accept Jesus into my heart'. This I willingly did, knowing that this was based on my understanding of sin, Jesus' Love & Sacrifice for me, & to receive the Gift of Salvation. Now my emphasis here is on the "Gift". After running amok for about eight years, the Holy Spirit took hold of me in a manner I had never experienced, even in those early years. I was deeply convicted of my sinful life & estrangement from the Lord, & in brokenness & tears confessed my sins. And at that very moment, a very strong sense of being forgiven, acceptance, & an inward renewal (regeneration) had taken place. But what of those early years, similar to yours?
Since being given re-birth & deeply studying the Word, I considered what my state was during those earlier years. I believe that every new-born has a sin nature; you asked, "Why would God have this be?" In my simple way, if Adam was created without a sin nature & then that nature became corrupted because of his sin, then all who have a blood connection to him must also have that fallen nature transferred to them regardless of age or innocence (maybe Romans 5:12 applies here). To Page 2.
The narrative thereafter gives us several heirs of promise,-but with Joseph we see the Spirit using him as a lynch pin, a saviour for his brethren. In setting him as "after our likeness" the Spirit is also laying out the methodology as to how the word of God does his job. Abraham for all his sterling qualities did fall in error. How Abraham and Sarah settled her barreness in their own way had to necessitate a constant thorn on the side of Israel's best interests. Ishmael was not an accident but consequences of their lack of judgment. Similarly how Rebekah conspired with Jacob to deprive the blessings from his elder brother would lead him to his flight to the east. How the ten sons of Jacob conspired to get rid of Jesus eventually shall lead to their bondage in the land of Egypt.
God did not allow his brethren get away with their envy same as the manner the nation of Israel rejected Jesus Christ led to something else."I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."(Ro.11::11)
The everlasting covenant has a purpose to which the example of Israel holds an useful lesson for us. "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."(1 Co.10:11)
" So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
The Spirit has set the example of Israel as a nation to illustrate the force of the Word in terms of blessings and curse for the disobedient so the covenant is a vehicle for the Fellowship of God with Man. The Latter is the Word become flesh. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. He was with the Word in the beginning. In sending the word God was not jesting as though with a boomerang but exercising his sovereign will. As he sent his word he shall be sending his only begotten Son as the Saviour of the whole world. Nothing less than that.
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," He sends him as a sign to the Land of Palestine so Israel may be saved, or in other words gave the nation the first option to say 'no' which was anticipated. The question of Salvation was according to the mystery of his will was based on the sole point of faith with works. God demanded nothing less since it was first demonstrated as doable by God. For which he framed them by his word.
In short the eternal word is the Law. God blessed Abraham. "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."(Ge.15:6)
God sets Abraham as the double for the Son. God made man "after our own image, and after our likeness"(1:26). The latter part is what we are considering. So what confidence he is sharing is for our spiritual instruction. "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;/And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge:"
The narrative thereafter gives us the heirs of promise
I do not see any problem with what I posted. If God chose to have me be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for me.
As for the others, infants and very young children can be given faith and believe but it is not in the same manner as adults.
For illustration, David said that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacogntive way. They are intellectually aware that they are trusting someone and now who they are trusting.
For another example, our new grandchild is believing that she will get feed and nurtured by her mom, but this is different than adults who can detect God's providence (or anyone else's) and connect that with His love and compassion.
I was also referring to babies and children who die young. I believe that God does save them. He regenerates them and causes them to believe within the soul, but perhaps not in the intellect. But it is all a work of God, not of the volition of the infant or child.
I also believe that God works the same way with unregenerate adults. He predestines them to election, regenerates them at the time He chooses, calls them, gives them faith to believe and repentance as he draws them to call upon Jesus for salvation.
I think that those who hold to a synergistic view of regeneration and faith give the unregenerate person's "free" will to much credit as it is just as corrupted as all the rest of him as a result of the sinful nature. I believe that an unregenerate person is unable to choose anything positive having to do with God and salvation. They, instead would be indifferent or hostile, or at enmity with God. They are unwilling to find out the truth about Him and rebel in their hearts at the thought of believing the Gospel and coming to Jesus for salvation. This will of unregenerate man is enslaved to the sinful nature and ruled by the prince of the power of the air Eph. 2:2.
In light of my last post and the ever-present 2000 character restriction I am always finding novel ways to cut things off at exactly that point. Okay I've had my beef over that issue...
Encouragement seems rare; but then again I'm not the most personable chap on the block; maybe what goes around comes around. Usually I don't know how to handle it; it is hard to accept for several reasons but we should consider such things as in proper setting it surely can be strengthening; and edifying.
As a man; I probably will elicit some shock from the ladies in saying that I have to watch it with females that may seem attractive in some way and not to mix up those thoughts with what is purely spiritual from the Lord as a strength that I wish to point out. Maybe women aren't subject to such things as much. I'm not trying to get into some sort of discussion here outside of scripture but trying to clarify the subject at hand by stating such encouragement may be better offered between one man or woman and other. At any rate; in true brotherly or sisterly love the sacrifice of time and effort for prayer; discipleship and just helping out with errands; for instance allows us to start to get to know one another better with those who we fellowship with as opposed to a site like this in some ways. Not to say that I don't appreciate such empathy here.
Jesus was known as a "man of sorrows" ( Isaiah 53:3). We can look to the Apostles; the prophets of old and many Godly saints who have been forgotton; and as Hebrews 11:38 states this world was not worthy of them. Hearts have hardened so that finding someone who demonstrates God's love is again; at least from my perspective rare among professing believers. It seems women are often more empathetic but there are still some men out there who are as well. I realize Father's Day is come and gone but those men who are TRULY men should be recognized; not as "machos" but Godly.
Consider for a moment someone who is kind and considerate all his life to friends; family and others but either doesn't believe or never shares the Gospel with them. Many would say "he is a good man"-and we are reminded of those who said that about Jesus or that He was a prophet but not recognized as God in the flesh.
Meanwhile consider someone else who is characteristically gruff; loudmouthed; opinionated and overall a pain to be around who takes the time to correctly explain the Gospel; but of course befitting his usual character doesn't show empathy or bothers to listen much to any responses or otherwise be very helpful even with practical needs that are obvious to others such as atheists who reach out.
Natural man; of course would hang out with the first person and be repulsed with the second; but in all fairness the second person is the one who gives a message in which eternity hangs in the balance. Such a case study of course isn't to justify such an approach to witnessing; but to also avoid what is far WORSE; that is showing all sorts of compassion to someone but WATERING down the Gospel; and not giving a clear warning of the deadly and eternal destruction which every unbeliever is about to face as life is as a vapor.
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Praise and highly esteeming a brother seems rare today but it can be edifying
May I point something out in your posts that seems a bit confusing.
In part 1 you stated "I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
THEY CANNOT YET BELIEVE AS WE DO WHO ARE OLDER.
However, here's what you say about yourself.
In part 2 you stated,
"I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God.
Gigi, do you not see something wrong with these statements?
The word freewill is in the Bible 17 times according to this search. The word choose occurs 58 times. The Bible says it, but you say it does not exist.
Pelagius taught that man's reason was not corrupted by the fall and that Adam's sin was not imputed nor inherited by subsequent offspring. So He did not think that man needed to cooperate with God to be saved nor did He believe that a person could be saved by God's sovereign choice without the assent of the human.
Augustine refuted Pelagius and taught that man was morally depraved from conception because of Adam's sin and needed God's grace to be saved. He taught that regeneration was a sole work of God and man did not cooperate with God to be saved.
So Pelagius taught a monergism that was solely a work of man and Augustine taught a monergism that was solely the work of God.
Pelagius' view was condemned as heretical by the church and Augustine's view prevailed in the church until the Reformation.
Luther, Calvin, Knox all taught an Augustinian monergism. Along comes Arminius teaching semi-Pelagianism that man must cooperate with God and His grace to be saved. He denied that regeneration was a monergistic work of God and that it was God and man working together to bring about salvation. This view is called synergistic because it involves the work or cooperation of more than one person.
Since that time monergism and synergism has been strongly debated among believers, especially theologians for centuries, as it is today. And among regular folk like us, we are blessed to have the Bible in our language to read and study. So each of us must do that and form our beliefs from what we learn. I used to believe decisional regeneration but from my reading of Scripture I have come to believe in monergistic regeneration prior to one's repentance and belief. That does not make my view correct or not. But it just shows that people can be brought to change their views as they study the Scriptures.
This thread is getting very long so I will exit this thread and consider how I will start a new one on one of the topics I listed in my reply to you. Thanks again.
So, I cannot definitely say when I was saved or regenerated or first believed. I just grew up knowing that I was saved by Jesus and His death and resurrection. I have lived all of my life as a believer and so I have lived a life far different than someone who was a pagan, atheist, or uninformed until they came to Christ as an adult. I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God. I am sure many people have a similar testimony about God's sovereign grace bestowed on them before they can even remember.
In the Scriptures, especially in the book of Acts and in the Epistles we have accounts of adults who were unregenerated coming to faith, not about children born to faith filled, regenerated parents. Yet ever since that first generation of converts to the Christian faith there have been millions of children brought up by believing parents and were exposed from infancy the truth of the Gospel and the salvation that God gives to them by grace alone.
But nevertheless, in today's western nations, people have grown up for many decades having been taken to church and taught how God wants us to act by parents who may not even be believers, but it was expected of parents to take their children to church, etc.
Also, the idea of decisional regeneration is fairly new in Christian history. (which does not make it right or wrong doctrine just because it is new).
In the 500's Pelagius promoted that any human can come to God all on His own without grace from God. He taught that man's will was not in bondage to sin and that people are born morally neutral. See more
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
1 Peter 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one anothe r with a pure heart fervently:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
I have read your replies and thank you for taking time to consider the topics and give thoughtful responses. I know that I threw out a lot of things to consider.
I wanted to address the issue of infants and others who are not able to intellectually understand their need for salvation or the gospel.
I believe that each and every human is conceived with a sinful nature. I can't even imagine why God would have this be, but the Bible is clear that this is true. And the Bible says that no one seeks God or is able to eradicate this nature from within themselves on their own. So, the people I am speaking about are dead in sin, separated from God. So, I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
they cannot yet believe as we do who are older. Should they die in infancy or childhood, I believe that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability.
But does this mean that every infant is regenerated? I don't think so, but certainly those who would die young.
Let me explain from my life experience because I think that my experience is very common for people who were born into a family of faith and exposed to the gospel from very young age. I am not saying this happens to all children of believing parents, but to many over the centuries.
I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus. I can remember that I did as far back as my preschool years, say about 3. I cannot remember before that. AS I grew up, my understanding of God, Jesus' saving work for me, and the need to believe the Gospel also grew and matured. As I entered my teen years, living my life for Jesus was very important to me and I have done so for the remainder of my life. So, when did I first believe? Certainly not when I was a teen or even a school-age child.
2 Samuel 23:1 The Spirit on the LORD (Christ the Spirit of prophecy) SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORDS were in my tongue.
Revelation 19:19 .... for the words of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy .......
All the words in the bible are the words of CHRIST.
All the Psalms are the WORDS of Christ, not David, all the words in the Psalms are prophecies of the kingdom of God.
Man's teachings have destroyed TRUTH.
God Bless You as TRUTH and LIGHT destroys DARKNESS, the works of Satan.
If I may respond to your comment although not addressed directly to me. You say:
" So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision."
I agree that your quote above is what God COMMANDS us to do.
But here in lies the problem.
None of us will do this or even want to do this with our WHOLE HEART, our WHOLE SOUL until God "saves" us and gives us a NEW HEART, a NEW SOUL.
This is very clear from the verses I have referenced in previous comments, if you care to review them. And many other verses as well.
When trying to understand what the Bible is teaching about the Nature of Salvation, we MUST consider mankind's condition APART from Salvation. That we are Spiritually DEAD, that we love this World far more than we love God or our fellow man, that we want what we want; Eph 2 and many other passages.
And that we cannot and will not turn to God with a broken and contrite HEART, recognizing that we are under the Wrath of God because of our sins.
And that we are entirely dependent upon God ALONE to change this horrible situation in our life.
A very interesting and enlightening exercise is to look up all the passages where God uses the terms "Whole Heart" or "Whole Soul" or "All Your Heart" or "All Your Soul" which is what God requires.
Which one of us is capable of this in our Spiritually DEAD condition?
Which one of us even does this perfectly, in our whole personality, after receiving a New Heart, becoming Born Again, since our New Soul still resides in an unsaved Body that still lusts after sin, until separated from that Body at death or receiving our Resurrected Spiritual Body at the Last Day?
Original Word:
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mot
Phonetic Spelling: ("mte")
Definition: to totter, shake, slip
What wonderful reassurance for all born again [saved] followers of Christ Jesus the Lord, that our Heavenly Father will not allow us to slip and fall!
If we begin to totter, his powerful, loving, hand is there to steady us and to keep us on His straight and narrow pathway.
Basically the point I made was that God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting , so I do believe that we have free will but we need to consider that God already knows exactly how we will use it throughout all the days of our lives .
Even Jesus did not know everything when he was here on earth the first time , he says to Peter that he has prayed for him ( Peter ) , that his faith fail not . Only God Himself is all knowing , though of course He has now given all power to His Son but even Jesus does not yet know the time hat God will send him back to us . So there are always things that God keeps to Himself for His own reasons .
All we need to do is trust Him , when Jesus is talking about little children coming to God through him , he's speaking metaphorically , in a parable , we are to be as little children , trusting , not doubting our Fathers love for us and wisdom and righteousness , not doubting His Son and the perfect sacrifice that has cleansed us in God's sight . Thanks again for your excellent reply to me , I can't add any more to your sensible words .
This is where I think we can get confused by the thoughts of free will and predestination .
I believe that God is in charge of His entire creation , I also believe that He knows us before we know our own selves . We have free will for sure but God , in His infinite wisdom knowledge and understanding , knows exactly how we will use it all day every day .
Thinking about this sometimes bends my brain to be honest . However , it is also a massive comfort and strengthener to me to know that , I am never alone , God knows me and loves me and He , in His wisdom , has allowed me a measure of understanding of His Eternal Word , this understanding has helped my faith in Him to grow and grow .
I have faced death more than once . I am so comforted to know that I shall not die until it is His Will for me to do so and He is righteous .
So , I have nothing to fear in this life . This is my faith . Fear is the enemy , if we have faith in Him we should not fear . We are very privileged , thank God for His mercy and love and for allowing each one of us to know something about Him . One day we will all know all , until then we debate , and hopefully continue to learn and grow , the Bible is the living water we all need to keep drinking every day , none of us knows everything , we must remember that and communicate accordingly . Much love to all my fellow Christians on here , it's good to be walking with you all , old and new friends and family in Christ . May God bless us all and keep us together . May we not tare each other apart !
I mean that Jesus is God Himself, a part of the Godhead/Trinity.
I am seeking the Lord in prayer over this latest subject and what has become a plethora of debated doctrinal issues. We need as in all issues to be a Berean; and to make sure we actually understand what scripture; and in these cases the "meat of the Word" actually means. ( 1 Cor. 3:2). In order to contend for the truth we have to make sure that disunity and strife aren't being utilized by the enemy to bring weakness to the brethren and especially that it won't cause any seed of bitterness in us to rise up where we would; for instance not be led to pray for one another as we should. ( Heb. 12:15 actually says "root" of bitterness). In many cases there may be more than one truth; such as man RESPONDING to Christ's gift of repentance through action which is of course necessary as well as "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" ( Philippians 2:12). Not only would we be robots if there wasn't some "symbiotic" relationship going on we wouldn't exist at all. In one sense we have to die to self or be "crucified with Christ" ( Gal. 2:20) when we begin to be Born Again; but it is a process of sanctification; which some proceed quickly and others slowly; and most probably in fits and starts of variable length.
I have brought this idea up as is similar to the concept mentioned here of knowing future actions of Jacob and Esau. It would seem Esau is eternally lost; but there were some things even he did to at least stop his plans on destroying Jacob after they met after Jacob's wrestling in the wilderness with the Angel of God. We could look at Moses; for instance who perished along with the rest of the generation; clearly he was a saved man but one error in particular (striking the rock in anger) was enough to keep him from walking into the Promised Land at the end.
We could look at this subject of only some being saved either with total predestined plans of God or His foreknowledge of what men would do.
"'The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau."
The word of God does not err. The risen Jesus was recognised by his voice. "Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master." ( John 20:16).When God commanded "Let there be light" The voice was true and is what made the Son qualify as the true Light. "After our likeness" is the sign and it can be as bread from heaven and as the stone cut not with hands, each of which serves his Father according to His purpose. When God blessed man in his Son the voice was clear and true. "arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me." (27:19) Isaac did not err in his soul. What is soul but the breath of God? God breathed into the nostrils of man he made him a living soul. The Spirit instructs us that every man has received this faculty to hear the voice which is what the ear of faith, or the inner man represents.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." By the same token we have the gift freely received to obey God as Jesus Christ showed. St Paul writes, "but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Ro.5:11-12) How can Calvin speak of limited atonement? It is an outright heresy, a lie.
Jacob a heel catcher and his lied before his Father whos could not go wrong. Isaac as the heir of promise poits out the discrepancy. "The voice is Jacob's, bu the hands ar the hand's of Esau." It is thus the imposter churches have practised their religion. The example of ,"Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." Is he any different than the believers of our times? He did not believe in the whole truth so we have heresies aired in this forum. Limited atonement, Bah! "(Ac,8:9-24)
I thought it may be good to start a separate thread.
Part 2.
Limited Atonement is unbiblical. It goes against the Nature of God!
Limited Atonement is defined in this way; "For God so loved the ELECT, that he gave his only begotten Son, that HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE in him so they will not perish but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the ELECT; but that the ELECT through him might be saved.
Gigi that is not the Gospel (good news)
Universalism is a belief I don't hold to, though I wish it was true because I wish that no one should parish. However, it's unbiblical. God also wish that no one would parish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Universalism is something we have been pushing back against for years on this site because it ignores the Judgement of God and the hate of sin amongst other things.
Limited Atonement is no better being it ignores the Love of God without partiality and many of God attributes as well.
How are we to minister to a lost world by telling them that if you are not of the elect that the invitation and verses like Revelation 22:17 and John 3:15-17 doesn't apply to them.
What use of verses like Matthews 5:13-16 would be to us?
The Gospel would not be Good News to most of the world!
One other thing that Limited Atonement and Universalism has in common is that neither requires a response from the listener and if we are regenerated as early as in the wound and regeneration doesn't mean re-birth, then when do repentance take place?
I'm surprised you can go through a series of who God is and yet hold to such a view.
God bless.
Thanks for your reply.
Part 1
You stated, " If God chose to have you be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for you.
(AS FOR THE OTHERS), infants and very young children can be given faith and believe BUT IT IS NOT IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADULTS.
So, what I gather here is that God with his "sovereign choice' gave you faith and belief at the age of 3 in the same manner as adults.
And you gave the illustration of King David saying that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacognitive way.
Gigi you are referring to Psalms 22:9. Here is how it reads; "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Gigi Psalms 22:1-21 is a portrait of the thoughts of Christ on the cross.
This is not speaking of King David.
Psalms 51:5 is what King David has to say. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Gigi this limited Atonement you are describing now as an Adult, is this also what you believed in when you were 3 years old?
That God 's offering of Christ is only for his elect?
That God will send the rest to hell but somehow, he chose you as a 3-year-old and many others at that age will remain lost and go to Hell.
"Some here do not believe in Hell so please spare me." But you have said you do believe in Hell.
Is this the same knowledge you had when you had the faith, belief, and understanding of an Adult at the age of 3?
Gigi, I remember believing any and everything my parents and grandparents said.
We were brought up and taught about the lord by them as for many people.
However, that faith I had was faith I had in "THEM." My belief was in THEM. The relationship was with THEM, NOT GOD!
A baby doesn't know what denying Christ mean!
My salvation as well as anyone at that age is completely in God's Love and mercy for our youthful understanding.
See Part 2.
Did you intend to say that Jesus is a God Himself? Just curious!
So the question is. Are we willing to empty ouselves from our egos, from our ambitions in this life? Are we willing to love our brethren like ourselves, are we willing to follow Jesus until death, are we willing to love our enemies...etc. God will not do that for us. He will keep telling us the right thing, sometimes using the tough way to teach us, but at the end of the day it is our decision.
To all those questions it is the responsibility of each one of us to give answers to and take the right decisions and go to God and ask Him to provide His grace to us to accomplish them. Jesus, although a God Himself, took as a human person all the good decisions and walked in the Spirit's power. So you see we are vessels, we are soil, dust, but we are individual personalities as well.
This is how I understand and believe this topic. Now, if I am wrong let the Lord show me the right thing.
GBU
You are right about "It is God's right and privilege to do as He pleases with any of us'. But on the other hand we know that God is a righteous God. We also know that ( 1 Peter 1:17) "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work..."
Also please read Acts 10:34-35, it is very claryfing, "34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
So God judges with no respect of persons, He is a just God. So what pleases Him is people responding to His love and choose the right way, isn't it?
Also I would like to explain my understanding about us being vessels of God. It is true that God puts His Spirit inside each one of us. So as Paul says we are the vessels which carry inside the treasure which is God's Spirit. This Spirit produces a fruit and enable us to obey God's commandements and change our characters in similarity to Jesus'. OK so far?
But what we must understand is that the Spirit of God is not sort of an "auto pilot" which drives us to where He wants to without our control and consent. He needs our consent, this is our free will. God's Spirit stands infront of our heart wishing to enter every appartment of it and cleanse it. But if we don't allow Him to enter any of these or some of these, He will not force His way through. The Spirit follows our decisions. If we want and ask Him to help us in a specific area He will definitely do that. But if we don't, He will wait until we give Him the permission to act, if we give Him it after all. As I said in a previous post it was on Abraham's hand to sacrifice his son, he could had chosen not to do it. God didn't force him to obey. So Abraham was justified by God for something he himself did, not God.
Let's have a look at a famous part of the Bible that is often misunderstood.
Romans 9:11-16,
11For the children (Jacob and Esau) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
OK, so what was the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born?
Was it that Esau was going to be hairy and red so God didn't like his appearance?
Was it that Jacob was going to be maybe handsome so God liked him?
Some will answer saying that we don't know what God had in mind. Don't we really?
If we look at the lives of both what do we see? We see that Jacob loved to grab God's promise to Abraham, and we also see that Esau literally rejected and humiliated that promise considering that promise to be less valuable than a dish of soup. What a humiliation! Similarly Judas thought that Jesus, the Son of God, deserved just 30 pieces of silver. So I ask again. What did God know beforehand about those two so He loved Jacob but hated Esau? The answer is obvious, isn't it? Next question. On what God based His decision to select beforehand Jacob instead of Esau. Not on what He arbitrarily decided but on how those two would respond to His call. Maybe God did something supernatural to make Jacob respond and Esau reject Him? Why would He do that?
Similarly God's selection of each one of us is due to our response to His love which He showed to us by sacrificing His Son. There is no other possible reason
One can imagine the dilemma of Isaac as a father to realise that the world he believed as true falling apart in every direction. His wife worked against his interests is a tragedy on the domestic front. No less was his loss of intragenerational trust,- if he could not trust his own son what else could he?. His tragedy was that of his world seen was 'not made of things which do appear.' Such is the case with everyone who made flesh his arm. Prophet Jeremiah was spot on. In Jesus was the life of men, and he said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John6:63) Before we discuss the world of the Spirit we shall juxtapose the dilemma of Isaac with the Father in the world of the Spirit. The Son asks the Father, "Lo I have come to do thy will" God must have responded similarly but with joy so we may according to our human imagination say with St Paul, " (God) who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."(Ep.1:4). In short the world of the Spirit teaches the representational nature so the body that of flesh and blood is near approximation of the heavenly realities. So whosoever embraces it is to live a life of lie. "As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool."(Je.17:11)
So what was Isaac's blessings to both sons in terms of worldly goods? In v.37 Isaac tells Esau, "Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants;" and v.40, "And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck."
The dominion refers to the blessing the Gentiles shall receive in Christ. Truth shall set him free.
Just as a child receiving a gift responds by reaching out to take (or, grab) it, with a smile or a thank you following, the sinner under deep conviction of his sinful state, of deserved punishment, will certainly reach out & give thanks for such a gift from God Who alone can save him. The Work of God has already been completed when Jesus made the payment for sin, nothing more can ever be added to it, not even a sinner's acceptance & appreciation.
I realize that I, and those who have been saved from other religions or a sinful lifestyle, can have a salvation experience that is different to say, as yours, where you were brought up in a Christian home & lived a godly life, increasing in faith & knowledge. I feel that even though the Spirit's Work in each case is the same, it might be very different in the severity of conviction & understanding. For you, you have been faithful to the Lord & His Word from your early years, so regeneration has been early, especially when you came to the age of understanding what sin is & the Gospel that saves - and you embraced that & continued in joy, hope & confidence of your position in Christ. For most others, coming out of a life of sin & false religions, I'm confident that what was a subtle Work of the Holy Spirit in you to save you will be a heart-wrenching, mighty shake-up & revelation from God in others. In either case, regeneration must take place: for me the date is set in stone (Oct 23, 1979), for you, a quieter unnoticeable transition under the Spirit's Ministry in your life. I'll leave it here for now & thanks again.
It appears to be a natural law of transference of human nature, to which God doesn't eradicate when making 'a new creation in Christ', rather giving us His Spirit so we can live this New Life & have the wherewithal to deal with the enemy of our souls. Our sinful human nature still requires this sin-affected body to age & die, but the promise is that our spirits shall live, for they are no longer dead gripped in sin, but new and alive unto God.
Therefore, when I see a new-born babe, I see the little one not as you do (i.e. "God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when they cannot yet believe" and "that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability)". Rather, I see a babe, whatever the religion or heart condition of the parents, as one born in innocence yet with a sinful human nature. What keeps such a one from being rejected by God if there is an early death, is that that sin nature has not been fed yet with sin (a wilful act of sin bringing a response in the heart). So in my mind, 'regeneration' doesn't come up here, as there is no need for re-birth, and no question whether the babe is a part of the elect or not - that if the sin nature has not been fed, all are innocent & will be saved.
Re: "decisional regeneration". I've stated before, even to David0921, that I don't believe that to accept/receive Christ adds to God's redeeming/regenerating Work, nor is that act necessary for God to complete His Work. I believe that since salvation through Christ is God's Gift (in very truth, undeserved) to all, those being drawn & convicted by the Spirit, will respond under such conviction. As mentioned previously, if one is regenerated first so they can respond, it seems to defeat the need to respond, as they have already been regenerated. Onto Page 3.
Thanks GiGi & yes this thread is long & cumbersome - pity to those trying to read it on their phones. What you shared about your early childhood is not dissimilar to mine; for I was brought up in a very godly, Christ-honoring home, taken to Church, attended children's S/School, had devotions/prayer-time at home, & lived according to biblical & parental rules. Only in my late teens, did I go 'off the rails' as my work took me far from home & under the influence of ungodly peers. In other words, what faith & love I had for the Lord earlier had altogether disappeared, preferring my new lifestyle of sin & having no conviction of it.
But in respect of my very early years, my recollection, though limited, was that I was always encouraged to 'accept Jesus into my heart'. This I willingly did, knowing that this was based on my understanding of sin, Jesus' Love & Sacrifice for me, & to receive the Gift of Salvation. Now my emphasis here is on the "Gift". After running amok for about eight years, the Holy Spirit took hold of me in a manner I had never experienced, even in those early years. I was deeply convicted of my sinful life & estrangement from the Lord, & in brokenness & tears confessed my sins. And at that very moment, a very strong sense of being forgiven, acceptance, & an inward renewal (regeneration) had taken place. But what of those early years, similar to yours?
Since being given re-birth & deeply studying the Word, I considered what my state was during those earlier years. I believe that every new-born has a sin nature; you asked, "Why would God have this be?" In my simple way, if Adam was created without a sin nature & then that nature became corrupted because of his sin, then all who have a blood connection to him must also have that fallen nature transferred to them regardless of age or innocence (maybe Romans 5:12 applies here). To Page 2.
The narrative thereafter gives us several heirs of promise,-but with Joseph we see the Spirit using him as a lynch pin, a saviour for his brethren. In setting him as "after our likeness" the Spirit is also laying out the methodology as to how the word of God does his job. Abraham for all his sterling qualities did fall in error. How Abraham and Sarah settled her barreness in their own way had to necessitate a constant thorn on the side of Israel's best interests. Ishmael was not an accident but consequences of their lack of judgment. Similarly how Rebekah conspired with Jacob to deprive the blessings from his elder brother would lead him to his flight to the east. How the ten sons of Jacob conspired to get rid of Jesus eventually shall lead to their bondage in the land of Egypt.
God did not allow his brethren get away with their envy same as the manner the nation of Israel rejected Jesus Christ led to something else."I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."(Ro.11::11)
The everlasting covenant has a purpose to which the example of Israel holds an useful lesson for us. "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."(1 Co.10:11)
" So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
The Spirit has set the example of Israel as a nation to illustrate the force of the Word in terms of blessings and curse for the disobedient so the covenant is a vehicle for the Fellowship of God with Man. The Latter is the Word become flesh. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. He was with the Word in the beginning. In sending the word God was not jesting as though with a boomerang but exercising his sovereign will. As he sent his word he shall be sending his only begotten Son as the Saviour of the whole world. Nothing less than that.
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," He sends him as a sign to the Land of Palestine so Israel may be saved, or in other words gave the nation the first option to say 'no' which was anticipated. The question of Salvation was according to the mystery of his will was based on the sole point of faith with works. God demanded nothing less since it was first demonstrated as doable by God. For which he framed them by his word.
In short the eternal word is the Law. God blessed Abraham. "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."(Ge.15:6)
God sets Abraham as the double for the Son. God made man "after our own image, and after our likeness"(1:26). The latter part is what we are considering. So what confidence he is sharing is for our spiritual instruction. "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;/And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge:"
The narrative thereafter gives us the heirs of promise
I do not see any problem with what I posted. If God chose to have me be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for me.
As for the others, infants and very young children can be given faith and believe but it is not in the same manner as adults.
For illustration, David said that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacogntive way. They are intellectually aware that they are trusting someone and now who they are trusting.
For another example, our new grandchild is believing that she will get feed and nurtured by her mom, but this is different than adults who can detect God's providence (or anyone else's) and connect that with His love and compassion.
I was also referring to babies and children who die young. I believe that God does save them. He regenerates them and causes them to believe within the soul, but perhaps not in the intellect. But it is all a work of God, not of the volition of the infant or child.
I also believe that God works the same way with unregenerate adults. He predestines them to election, regenerates them at the time He chooses, calls them, gives them faith to believe and repentance as he draws them to call upon Jesus for salvation.
I think that those who hold to a synergistic view of regeneration and faith give the unregenerate person's "free" will to much credit as it is just as corrupted as all the rest of him as a result of the sinful nature. I believe that an unregenerate person is unable to choose anything positive having to do with God and salvation. They, instead would be indifferent or hostile, or at enmity with God. They are unwilling to find out the truth about Him and rebel in their hearts at the thought of believing the Gospel and coming to Jesus for salvation. This will of unregenerate man is enslaved to the sinful nature and ruled by the prince of the power of the air Eph. 2:2.
Thanks for asking.
In light of my last post and the ever-present 2000 character restriction I am always finding novel ways to cut things off at exactly that point. Okay I've had my beef over that issue...
Encouragement seems rare; but then again I'm not the most personable chap on the block; maybe what goes around comes around. Usually I don't know how to handle it; it is hard to accept for several reasons but we should consider such things as in proper setting it surely can be strengthening; and edifying.
As a man; I probably will elicit some shock from the ladies in saying that I have to watch it with females that may seem attractive in some way and not to mix up those thoughts with what is purely spiritual from the Lord as a strength that I wish to point out. Maybe women aren't subject to such things as much. I'm not trying to get into some sort of discussion here outside of scripture but trying to clarify the subject at hand by stating such encouragement may be better offered between one man or woman and other. At any rate; in true brotherly or sisterly love the sacrifice of time and effort for prayer; discipleship and just helping out with errands; for instance allows us to start to get to know one another better with those who we fellowship with as opposed to a site like this in some ways. Not to say that I don't appreciate such empathy here.
Jesus was known as a "man of sorrows" ( Isaiah 53:3). We can look to the Apostles; the prophets of old and many Godly saints who have been forgotton; and as Hebrews 11:38 states this world was not worthy of them. Hearts have hardened so that finding someone who demonstrates God's love is again; at least from my perspective rare among professing believers. It seems women are often more empathetic but there are still some men out there who are as well. I realize Father's Day is come and gone but those men who are TRULY men should be recognized; not as "machos" but Godly.
Meanwhile consider someone else who is characteristically gruff; loudmouthed; opinionated and overall a pain to be around who takes the time to correctly explain the Gospel; but of course befitting his usual character doesn't show empathy or bothers to listen much to any responses or otherwise be very helpful even with practical needs that are obvious to others such as atheists who reach out.
Natural man; of course would hang out with the first person and be repulsed with the second; but in all fairness the second person is the one who gives a message in which eternity hangs in the balance. Such a case study of course isn't to justify such an approach to witnessing; but to also avoid what is far WORSE; that is showing all sorts of compassion to someone but WATERING down the Gospel; and not giving a clear warning of the deadly and eternal destruction which every unbeliever is about to face as life is as a vapor.
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Praise and highly esteeming a brother seems rare today but it can be edifying
May I point something out in your posts that seems a bit confusing.
In part 1 you stated "I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
THEY CANNOT YET BELIEVE AS WE DO WHO ARE OLDER.
However, here's what you say about yourself.
In part 2 you stated,
"I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God.
Gigi, do you not see something wrong with these statements?
Pt. 3
Pelagius taught that man's reason was not corrupted by the fall and that Adam's sin was not imputed nor inherited by subsequent offspring. So He did not think that man needed to cooperate with God to be saved nor did He believe that a person could be saved by God's sovereign choice without the assent of the human.
Augustine refuted Pelagius and taught that man was morally depraved from conception because of Adam's sin and needed God's grace to be saved. He taught that regeneration was a sole work of God and man did not cooperate with God to be saved.
So Pelagius taught a monergism that was solely a work of man and Augustine taught a monergism that was solely the work of God.
Pelagius' view was condemned as heretical by the church and Augustine's view prevailed in the church until the Reformation.
Luther, Calvin, Knox all taught an Augustinian monergism. Along comes Arminius teaching semi-Pelagianism that man must cooperate with God and His grace to be saved. He denied that regeneration was a monergistic work of God and that it was God and man working together to bring about salvation. This view is called synergistic because it involves the work or cooperation of more than one person.
Since that time monergism and synergism has been strongly debated among believers, especially theologians for centuries, as it is today. And among regular folk like us, we are blessed to have the Bible in our language to read and study. So each of us must do that and form our beliefs from what we learn. I used to believe decisional regeneration but from my reading of Scripture I have come to believe in monergistic regeneration prior to one's repentance and belief. That does not make my view correct or not. But it just shows that people can be brought to change their views as they study the Scriptures.
This thread is getting very long so I will exit this thread and consider how I will start a new one on one of the topics I listed in my reply to you. Thanks again.
Pt. 2
So, I cannot definitely say when I was saved or regenerated or first believed. I just grew up knowing that I was saved by Jesus and His death and resurrection. I have lived all of my life as a believer and so I have lived a life far different than someone who was a pagan, atheist, or uninformed until they came to Christ as an adult. I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God. I am sure many people have a similar testimony about God's sovereign grace bestowed on them before they can even remember.
In the Scriptures, especially in the book of Acts and in the Epistles we have accounts of adults who were unregenerated coming to faith, not about children born to faith filled, regenerated parents. Yet ever since that first generation of converts to the Christian faith there have been millions of children brought up by believing parents and were exposed from infancy the truth of the Gospel and the salvation that God gives to them by grace alone.
But nevertheless, in today's western nations, people have grown up for many decades having been taken to church and taught how God wants us to act by parents who may not even be believers, but it was expected of parents to take their children to church, etc.
Also, the idea of decisional regeneration is fairly new in Christian history. (which does not make it right or wrong doctrine just because it is new).
In the 500's Pelagius promoted that any human can come to God all on His own without grace from God. He taught that man's will was not in bondage to sin and that people are born morally neutral. See more
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
1 Peter 1:22-23
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one anothe r with a pure heart fervently:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
I have read your replies and thank you for taking time to consider the topics and give thoughtful responses. I know that I threw out a lot of things to consider.
I wanted to address the issue of infants and others who are not able to intellectually understand their need for salvation or the gospel.
I believe that each and every human is conceived with a sinful nature. I can't even imagine why God would have this be, but the Bible is clear that this is true. And the Bible says that no one seeks God or is able to eradicate this nature from within themselves on their own. So, the people I am speaking about are dead in sin, separated from God. So, I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
they cannot yet believe as we do who are older. Should they die in infancy or childhood, I believe that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability.
But does this mean that every infant is regenerated? I don't think so, but certainly those who would die young.
Let me explain from my life experience because I think that my experience is very common for people who were born into a family of faith and exposed to the gospel from very young age. I am not saying this happens to all children of believing parents, but to many over the centuries.
I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus. I can remember that I did as far back as my preschool years, say about 3. I cannot remember before that. AS I grew up, my understanding of God, Jesus' saving work for me, and the need to believe the Gospel also grew and matured. As I entered my teen years, living my life for Jesus was very important to me and I have done so for the remainder of my life. So, when did I first believe? Certainly not when I was a teen or even a school-age child.
See pt. 2