I hope you don't mind if I respond to you. I do not think that Adam nor myself were twisting what David had posted. We were seeking clarity and for David to correct our misunderstanding of his statement.
I understand what you said about feeling that some people on here are not safe to interact with. Perhaps you feel that way about me or about Adam. I hope not, but if so, I ask that you give us grace and hopefully we can work together to improve our mutual regard for one another. I certainly never intend to misrepresent anyone on here, but may misunderstand what others present.
I do notice that you rarely respond to me, so I thought that I may be one of those you don't feel is safe to interact with. If so, I am sorry for that. I respect you and your ideas, just like I do for anyone else. Yet, there are times where we all feel the need to bring forward how we disagree with another's posting and speak what we believe to be true. And sometimes we do need to address obviously false beliefs. I don't think that David falls in this category often, so I did want to explore his thinking on this topic with him in hopes of gaining a better understanding of what he really wished to convey.
Jema, I would love to hear from you, but understand if you wish to refrain. Let's work towards peace and unity.
I do wish you had spoken to my request of which of the two beliefs I asked you about. But I take it from you directing me back to the Scriptures that you believe that the Scriptures in their original autographs are strictly God's words, not those of men.
So, then, if this is true of your belief, then I gather that you believe that God dictated the words to the men to be written. Is this true?
2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old times by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
2 Timothy3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I believe what these verses declare, as I perceive that you do, too. I think there are two different stances on this topic. These are: whether God dictated His words in and through the Scripture writers or whether God guided these men through the Holy Spirit to write only what is true and sound words that accurately reflect what God wished to communicate to humanity through the writings of these men.
David, if you wish to respond back to this post, I would be happy for it. If you wish to let it lie, then that is fine, too.
Again, If you go back and read all of the comments that I posted in the conversation with Gigi, you will hopefully understand what I meant regarding your questions.
You are not correct when you say that I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe that every single word in the Bible, in the original autographs, are God's words. They are exactly the words that God chose to use. I don't know how to be any more clear than that.
If you are really interested in understanding what I was attempting to communicate, you would do well to read all of the comments that I posted in the discussion with Gigi. Rather than singling out and apparently misunderstanding, one specific statement, which I Believe is absolutely true.
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF"
This seems very close to:
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS [GOD HIMSELF]"
So we asked him about it, but I felt pretty sure that's what he meant so I brought up many questions. I'm actually relieved he says he apparently doesn't believe that, but I still don't know what he believes nor do I understand any motives behind it.
If you were accusing some of us of "twisting" words just look at his words above as this is a valid question of someone posting such things on this website. I hope 2 Timothy 4:3-4 does not apply in this case, but we should be on guard against such teachings and defend the truth.
The "Sword" is often used by God as a figure of His Word. The Word of God is a two edged sword. It cuts both ways. It is the savor of life unto life and death unto death.
It is a beautiful example of how God speaks in Parables and "without a parable spoke He not".
I appreciate your chiming in on this subject and yes we have gone down this road in some of our past discussions regarding Biblical Hermeneutics and the nature of the Bible.
I fully acknowledge that when we attempt to articulate our understanding of any Biblical truth in our own words there exists the possibility of misunderstanding by the reader what we are trying to communicate. And perhaps that is the case here.
I certainly was not saying that "the Bible IS God, Himself". And if anyone believes that I was, they have misunderstood my meaning.
I am saying, as I have said many times was before, that every word, every verse, every passage, every chapter, every book, i.e. the entire Bible, is from the Mouth of God Himself in the original autographs, without getting into the mechanics of how God worked this out. And that the Bible does not merely "contain" God's Word in the words of its human writers.
As far as Bible translations, I'm convinced that the KJV is the most faithful word for word translation available in the English language. And, while not 100% error free, those instances are so few and far between that we can have confidence that we are reading the Words of God Himself. And God has also given us the tools to check out the KJV translation. This however was not the focus of my discussion with GiGi.
So I maintain that The Bible Alone and in its Entirety is the Word of God. And is the Ultimate Authority for doctrine and practice in our life.
It is a tactic used by some on here regularly . Take your own words , twist them around and throw them in your face . Try not to take it to heart and don't be soon shaken :) . We on here have seen it before many times , you will learn who it is safe to engage with and who it is that you are better off staying away from . May God bless you and us , with your continued presence on here .
Monet333 God has touched your heart , never forget how that made you feel , remember it forever , the memory of it will bless you through out your life . We can easily get caught up in this world and forget even the awesome things that have affected us . Remember His connection to you today , you felt Him today didn't you ? I pray that you will always keep your heart open to recieve His message of love for you . He will never leave you .
Wow thank you.! Yes, I have dreams, that come true. What a blessing it has been as Im sure yur wife is as thankful. It helps to be persistant in spreading His word Tho at times I speak more from exsperience then from His word, I definitly mean well. Yet, for my own visions, Im not always sure who & never prepared for when it is put into motion. It took me years to understand judging & still learning so thank so much for yur help along w/the others. As humans we all do in some form or nother & thats why it is SO important for us to know & understand the true meaning of Christ DBR so we eventually, prayerfully, learn to let go & let God.! Nothing we can do about any happenings (even w/visions) for what is His will can not be changed by a human fretting for even a second. Lately, its a quick thought then my repenting starts. If she has tips on how to channel visions I'd be very interested to hear. As Im sure many ppl would. It could be her calling. Thanks to you both, blessings.!
With regards to the Word of God , I have always believed that the Word of God is also signified by the sword . It's an interesting study if you fancy it , that sharp two edged sword that will judge the nation's , the sword of the Lord and of Gideon , if you have a concordance you might want to look at the occasion's when the sword is mentioned , especially in Revelation and Ezekiel . Don't forget that sword that was placed at the gate of Eden . I believe that the Word is symbolised more than one thing , the obvious one being the Word made flesh which is of course Christ , I also believe that the sword often represents the Word of the Lord . Can anyone think of anything else in the Bible that might signify the Word of God ?
Hi David0921. I can see where that statement from you ("the Bible is the very WORD OF GOD HIMSELF") can be misleading. Some could read it as 'the Bible, which is truly God's Word, is God'. I read (by paraphrasing), ' the Bible is truly God's Word, spoken/authored by Him and given to us by Him (or Himself)'.
Maybe your strict emphasis on the words within the KJV being wholly God's Word (the exact Words spoken by God) rather than just a very good translation work into English, may color folks' understanding of your statement. We've discussed this aspect with the KJV before, & we find that our differences lie there, but to state that from our discussions & your other input, I believe that I've understood your statement in question, as you've intended.
n angel visits the priest Zacharias in a temple. Zacharias is married to an infertile woman named Elizabeth. The angel proclaims that Zacharias and his wife will bear a child who they shall name John. Zacharias explains to the angel that he is an elderly man. In response the angel simply says Zacharias will be unable to speak prior to the birth of his son.
Gabriel, yet another angel, appears to Mary who is wed to Joseph. Mary is told she too will bear a son who shall be called Jesus. This child will also become known as "The Son of the Highest". Mary decides to visit Elizabeth and when she does the unborn John moves within his mother's womb. Gabriel assures Mary that the Holy Spirit will pay her a visit. Mary sings great praises of the Lord.
Zacharias and Elizabeth are urged by many to name their new son after his father. They follow through with the original declaration and call him John. As promised, Zacharias is once again able to speak. In doing so he predicts that his son will bear the title of "The Prophet of the Highest."
I believe those verses and others that I quoted in the totality of my discussion with GiGi on this subject are consistent with and support what I have said about the Bible, the WORD of God and its relationship to our worship of the LORD Jesus Christ, eternal God Himself.
I think I explained exactly what I meant in my response to you and Adam. And if you go back and read the entirety of my comments to you in our discussion, I quoted numerous verses that I believe support exactly what I said and what I meant.
I am disappointed in your characterization of what I said. But I stand by what I said.
And like you suggested, I am now going to leave it there.
You quoted my words and then stated what "I meant". And what you said "I meant" is a distortion of what I said and what I meant.
But I said what I meant and believe that is what the Bible declares. And I quoted many scriptures in the totality of my discussion with GiGi, which I believe support what I said.
If I am incorrect in anything I say about what I believe the Bible is teaching, I welcome correction.
It is exceptionally serious business to say "thus says the LORD" when the LORD has not said.
Here is your exact quote from your post yesterday.
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF (in the original autographs). (Your caps)
So both Adam and I take this statement at face value that you are equating the Scriptures with God, especially Jesus who in john 1 is called THE WORD OF GOD.
If you do not believe this statement as we interpret it, then please explain what you really meant. If you did mean your statement to mean as we thought it meant, then please cite Scriptures that state this belief. For me, if you truly do believe that All of Scriptures, and each word in it, are in reality, God Himself in Jesus, the Word of God, then you are speaking of making what God created into an idol.
Hi David, i quoted your words and you replied and asked where you said that. Its now obvious that youre making a distinction between Gods word or word of God and the Bible. To me and many others its the same.
Youre claiming its bad for us to question what you said. I hope you are being genuine and not playing us. But review what you said. Whats the difference to you?
many actually stopped following Jesus that day he said here in the Gospel of John 6:48-58.
Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread ( John 6:35, 48, 51).
And twice He emphasizes faith (a spiritual action) as the key to salvation:
"My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life" (verse 40)
and "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (verse 47).
Jesus then compares and contrasts Himself to the manna that Israel had eaten in the time of Moses: "Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die" John 6:49-50.
The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life" ( John 6:63). Those who misunderstood Jesus and were offended by His talk about eating His flesh and drinking His blood were stuck in a physical mindset, ignoring the things of the Spirit. They were concerned with getting another physical meal, so Jesus uses the realm of the physical to teach a vital spiritual truth.
At the Last Supper, Jesus gives a similar message.
We are to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes"
1 Corinthians 11:26.
Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh and blood and hold that the bread and wine are symbolic of the spiritual bond created with Christ through faith.
Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God'" ( Matthew 4:4, quoting Deuteronomy 8:3). The implication is that the bread is God's Word and that is what sustains us. Jesus is called the Word of God who came to earth and was made flesh ( John 1:14). The Word of God is also the Bread of Life ( John 6:48).
After we go through the bible we come to the last book and it's called The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
This is the conclusion of what's written the other 65 books.
Here's the scope and purpose of John's writings
In John 20:30-31. "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
John's purpose was to introduce the readers of his gospel to Jesus Christ, establishing Who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He did, all with the sole aim of leading them to embrace the saving work of Christ.
JOHN 1:1
The Greek word translated "Word" in this passage is Logos.
In that day they understood the usage of the term. Word/Logos.
John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with.
John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or "Word" of God is associated with the personification of God's revelation.
In the Old Testament the "word" of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God's will.
John is pointing them back to the Old Testament.
The term Logos brought forth the idea of a "mediating principle" between God and the world in that day.
But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had as a mediating principle and uses Logos to present Jesus as God's perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh.
In John 14:8-9 we see the word of God in the flesh representing what the accurate Logos/Words of the old testament said who would come.
This is what Jesus is telling Phillip.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Show me where I have said what you and Adam seem to be suggesting. That is that "Jesus IS the Bible" or that "the Bible IS Jesus".
What I have said is that the Bible (in the original autographs) are the WORDS of God, Himself. Not the WORDS of Men. And that "worshiping God" is in the first instance is "to be obedient to the WORD of God, the Bible".
And you are now suggesting that is idolatry? And that I am, to use Adam's words, "worshipping a physical Book i.e. pen and paper"?
That is nonsense and a complete distortion of what I have said.
Hi Jeff. Yes, in Revelation 12:10 we read, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren IS CAST DOWN, which accused them before our God day and night." However, in trying to piece together Satan's former position in Heaven or on Earth now & all that transpired in-between, is not always easy as I would relegate teaching on this doctrine (of Satan) amongst the many that the Bible gives sparse information & therefore cannot be fully understood. Therefore, in reading about Satan & his angels (the ones that followed him after he was booted out of God's Presence), often brings conflicts in our understanding & agreement.
For example, we know that Satan was already with sin & banished from God's Presence right at the time of the creation of man & woman ( Genesis 3:14,15, where Satan had used an animal to tempt man to also become like him & his quest to be like God). And Ezekiel 28:12-15, of Satan who infected the King of Tyrus to also usurp the Throne of God (see also Isaiah 14:12-15, where Satan also used the Babylonian king). Yet, we read that Satan still had access to Heaven, whereas Revelation 12:7-9 tells us that only after the "war in Heaven", Satan & his angels lost the battle, & was cast down to the Earth for all time.
So, in my cautious understanding, Satan no longer has access into Heaven, though in some way he still manages to bring accusation before God against those who belong to Jesus. But Satan & his work were judged at the Cross ( John 12:31), and though his work continues to tempt & blind the hearts of men since then, he knows his time is short ( Revelation 12:12), that in a future day he will be confined in the abyss ( Revelation 20:2,3), & at the end of the Millennium period, be locked away forever in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:10). This is how I try to piece it all together - though not without conjecture or error.
I just cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says that the words of Scripture are Jesus Himself. You have challenged David on this asking for Scripture references to show what he has presented in this thread concerning the Jesus = Scriptures, being the same thing. Thank you for that. I know that David has a very high regard for Scriptures, which we all should have, but his thinking totters on the edge of idolatry. I get where he is coming from, but cannot agree with him.
Also, thank you for saying that what I posted is "normal" thinking on this topic. I was surprised that David made it into a battle, it seems. But I feel we can move past this sub-topic from what Richard originally posted and what I posted in response to him.
I will be praying for David today. I hope that the Lord will richly bless him with clear insight concerning who He truly is as I pray that I receive the same blessing as well. We all can pray for the Holy Spirit to refine our notion of Who our God is in His Being and in the Persons of the Godhead.
I hope you don't mind if I respond to you. I do not think that Adam nor myself were twisting what David had posted. We were seeking clarity and for David to correct our misunderstanding of his statement.
I understand what you said about feeling that some people on here are not safe to interact with. Perhaps you feel that way about me or about Adam. I hope not, but if so, I ask that you give us grace and hopefully we can work together to improve our mutual regard for one another. I certainly never intend to misrepresent anyone on here, but may misunderstand what others present.
I do notice that you rarely respond to me, so I thought that I may be one of those you don't feel is safe to interact with. If so, I am sorry for that. I respect you and your ideas, just like I do for anyone else. Yet, there are times where we all feel the need to bring forward how we disagree with another's posting and speak what we believe to be true. And sometimes we do need to address obviously false beliefs. I don't think that David falls in this category often, so I did want to explore his thinking on this topic with him in hopes of gaining a better understanding of what he really wished to convey.
Jema, I would love to hear from you, but understand if you wish to refrain. Let's work towards peace and unity.
I do wish you had spoken to my request of which of the two beliefs I asked you about. But I take it from you directing me back to the Scriptures that you believe that the Scriptures in their original autographs are strictly God's words, not those of men.
So, then, if this is true of your belief, then I gather that you believe that God dictated the words to the men to be written. Is this true?
2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old times by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
2 Timothy3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I believe what these verses declare, as I perceive that you do, too. I think there are two different stances on this topic. These are: whether God dictated His words in and through the Scripture writers or whether God guided these men through the Holy Spirit to write only what is true and sound words that accurately reflect what God wished to communicate to humanity through the writings of these men.
David, if you wish to respond back to this post, I would be happy for it. If you wish to let it lie, then that is fine, too.
Again, If you go back and read all of the comments that I posted in the conversation with Gigi, you will hopefully understand what I meant regarding your questions.
You are not correct when you say that I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe that every single word in the Bible, in the original autographs, are God's words. They are exactly the words that God chose to use. I don't know how to be any more clear than that.
David092: "But we cannot separate the worship of God from the Word of God."
The Bible is the Word of God, so this reads like: 'we cannot separate the worship of God from the [Bible]".
We now understand you don't consider the "Word of God" to mean the Bible, so what do you mean by this and what are scripture sources?
If you are really interested in understanding what I was attempting to communicate, you would do well to read all of the comments that I posted in the discussion with Gigi. Rather than singling out and apparently misunderstanding, one specific statement, which I Believe is absolutely true.
What David posted was:
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF"
This seems very close to:
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS [GOD HIMSELF]"
So we asked him about it, but I felt pretty sure that's what he meant so I brought up many questions. I'm actually relieved he says he apparently doesn't believe that, but I still don't know what he believes nor do I understand any motives behind it.
If you were accusing some of us of "twisting" words just look at his words above as this is a valid question of someone posting such things on this website. I hope 2 Timothy 4:3-4 does not apply in this case, but we should be on guard against such teachings and defend the truth.
The "Sword" is often used by God as a figure of His Word. The Word of God is a two edged sword. It cuts both ways. It is the savor of life unto life and death unto death.
It is a beautiful example of how God speaks in Parables and "without a parable spoke He not".
And I do try not take it personally when someone disagrees with me, regardless of how it is done.
The only thing that really matters is "what does the Bible, the Whole Bible, say" about any topic we may be discussing regarding God and His Word.
I appreciate your chiming in on this subject and yes we have gone down this road in some of our past discussions regarding Biblical Hermeneutics and the nature of the Bible.
I fully acknowledge that when we attempt to articulate our understanding of any Biblical truth in our own words there exists the possibility of misunderstanding by the reader what we are trying to communicate. And perhaps that is the case here.
I certainly was not saying that "the Bible IS God, Himself". And if anyone believes that I was, they have misunderstood my meaning.
I am saying, as I have said many times was before, that every word, every verse, every passage, every chapter, every book, i.e. the entire Bible, is from the Mouth of God Himself in the original autographs, without getting into the mechanics of how God worked this out. And that the Bible does not merely "contain" God's Word in the words of its human writers.
As far as Bible translations, I'm convinced that the KJV is the most faithful word for word translation available in the English language. And, while not 100% error free, those instances are so few and far between that we can have confidence that we are reading the Words of God Himself. And God has also given us the tools to check out the KJV translation. This however was not the focus of my discussion with GiGi.
So I maintain that The Bible Alone and in its Entirety is the Word of God. And is the Ultimate Authority for doctrine and practice in our life.
Maybe your strict emphasis on the words within the KJV being wholly God's Word (the exact Words spoken by God) rather than just a very good translation work into English, may color folks' understanding of your statement. We've discussed this aspect with the KJV before, & we find that our differences lie there, but to state that from our discussions & your other input, I believe that I've understood your statement in question, as you've intended.
Gabriel, yet another angel, appears to Mary who is wed to Joseph. Mary is told she too will bear a son who shall be called Jesus. This child will also become known as "The Son of the Highest". Mary decides to visit Elizabeth and when she does the unborn John moves within his mother's womb. Gabriel assures Mary that the Holy Spirit will pay her a visit. Mary sings great praises of the Lord.
Zacharias and Elizabeth are urged by many to name their new son after his father. They follow through with the original declaration and call him John. As promised, Zacharias is once again able to speak. In doing so he predicts that his son will bear the title of "The Prophet of the Highest."
I believe those verses and others that I quoted in the totality of my discussion with GiGi on this subject are consistent with and support what I have said about the Bible, the WORD of God and its relationship to our worship of the LORD Jesus Christ, eternal God Himself.
I think I explained exactly what I meant in my response to you and Adam. And if you go back and read the entirety of my comments to you in our discussion, I quoted numerous verses that I believe support exactly what I said and what I meant.
I am disappointed in your characterization of what I said. But I stand by what I said.
And like you suggested, I am now going to leave it there.
May God richly bless you.
You quoted my words and then stated what "I meant". And what you said "I meant" is a distortion of what I said and what I meant.
But I said what I meant and believe that is what the Bible declares. And I quoted many scriptures in the totality of my discussion with GiGi, which I believe support what I said.
If I am incorrect in anything I say about what I believe the Bible is teaching, I welcome correction.
It is exceptionally serious business to say "thus says the LORD" when the LORD has not said.
Here is your exact quote from your post yesterday.
"The Bible alone and in its entirety IS THE VERY WORD OF GOD HIMSELF (in the original autographs). (Your caps)
So both Adam and I take this statement at face value that you are equating the Scriptures with God, especially Jesus who in john 1 is called THE WORD OF GOD.
If you do not believe this statement as we interpret it, then please explain what you really meant. If you did mean your statement to mean as we thought it meant, then please cite Scriptures that state this belief. For me, if you truly do believe that All of Scriptures, and each word in it, are in reality, God Himself in Jesus, the Word of God, then you are speaking of making what God created into an idol.
Youre claiming its bad for us to question what you said. I hope you are being genuine and not playing us. But review what you said. Whats the difference to you?
Part 2.
This reminds me of John 6:60 when
many actually stopped following Jesus that day he said here in the Gospel of John 6:48-58.
Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread ( John 6:35, 48, 51).
And twice He emphasizes faith (a spiritual action) as the key to salvation:
"My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life" (verse 40)
and "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (verse 47).
Jesus then compares and contrasts Himself to the manna that Israel had eaten in the time of Moses: "Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die" John 6:49-50.
The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life" ( John 6:63). Those who misunderstood Jesus and were offended by His talk about eating His flesh and drinking His blood were stuck in a physical mindset, ignoring the things of the Spirit. They were concerned with getting another physical meal, so Jesus uses the realm of the physical to teach a vital spiritual truth.
At the Last Supper, Jesus gives a similar message.
We are to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes"
1 Corinthians 11:26.
Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh and blood and hold that the bread and wine are symbolic of the spiritual bond created with Christ through faith.
Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God'" ( Matthew 4:4, quoting Deuteronomy 8:3). The implication is that the bread is God's Word and that is what sustains us. Jesus is called the Word of God who came to earth and was made flesh ( John 1:14). The Word of God is also the Bread of Life ( John 6:48).
God bless.
After we go through the bible we come to the last book and it's called The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
This is the conclusion of what's written the other 65 books.
Here's the scope and purpose of John's writings
In John 20:30-31. "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
John's purpose was to introduce the readers of his gospel to Jesus Christ, establishing Who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He did, all with the sole aim of leading them to embrace the saving work of Christ.
JOHN 1:1
The Greek word translated "Word" in this passage is Logos.
In that day they understood the usage of the term. Word/Logos.
John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with.
John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or "Word" of God is associated with the personification of God's revelation.
In the Old Testament the "word" of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God's will.
John is pointing them back to the Old Testament.
The term Logos brought forth the idea of a "mediating principle" between God and the world in that day.
But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had as a mediating principle and uses Logos to present Jesus as God's perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh.
In John 14:8-9 we see the word of God in the flesh representing what the accurate Logos/Words of the old testament said who would come.
This is what Jesus is telling Phillip.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
In this regard I believe you are right.
GB.
I will say to you what I said to Adam.
Show me where I have said what you and Adam seem to be suggesting. That is that "Jesus IS the Bible" or that "the Bible IS Jesus".
What I have said is that the Bible (in the original autographs) are the WORDS of God, Himself. Not the WORDS of Men. And that "worshiping God" is in the first instance is "to be obedient to the WORD of God, the Bible".
And you are now suggesting that is idolatry? And that I am, to use Adam's words, "worshipping a physical Book i.e. pen and paper"?
That is nonsense and a complete distortion of what I have said.
For example, we know that Satan was already with sin & banished from God's Presence right at the time of the creation of man & woman ( Genesis 3:14,15, where Satan had used an animal to tempt man to also become like him & his quest to be like God). And Ezekiel 28:12-15, of Satan who infected the King of Tyrus to also usurp the Throne of God (see also Isaiah 14:12-15, where Satan also used the Babylonian king). Yet, we read that Satan still had access to Heaven, whereas Revelation 12:7-9 tells us that only after the "war in Heaven", Satan & his angels lost the battle, & was cast down to the Earth for all time.
So, in my cautious understanding, Satan no longer has access into Heaven, though in some way he still manages to bring accusation before God against those who belong to Jesus. But Satan & his work were judged at the Cross ( John 12:31), and though his work continues to tempt & blind the hearts of men since then, he knows his time is short ( Revelation 12:12), that in a future day he will be confined in the abyss ( Revelation 20:2,3), & at the end of the Millennium period, be locked away forever in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:10). This is how I try to piece it all together - though not without conjecture or error.
I have prayed for you and your family today. I am looking forward to hearing how God is blessing you, Kirstie, and your family.
I just cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says that the words of Scripture are Jesus Himself. You have challenged David on this asking for Scripture references to show what he has presented in this thread concerning the Jesus = Scriptures, being the same thing. Thank you for that. I know that David has a very high regard for Scriptures, which we all should have, but his thinking totters on the edge of idolatry. I get where he is coming from, but cannot agree with him.
Also, thank you for saying that what I posted is "normal" thinking on this topic. I was surprised that David made it into a battle, it seems. But I feel we can move past this sub-topic from what Richard originally posted and what I posted in response to him.
I will be praying for David today. I hope that the Lord will richly bless him with clear insight concerning who He truly is as I pray that I receive the same blessing as well. We all can pray for the Holy Spirit to refine our notion of Who our God is in His Being and in the Persons of the Godhead.