In my opinion that event is simpler than you described it. Simply Peter thought as a normal person when he rebuked his Lord. He spoke out of his feelings for Jesus.. Anybody would have done the same. So why did Jesus call him devil? Because he wanted to show to Peter (and to us) that anything, even if it comes out of our good intentions, must be removed if it is an obstacle to God's plan. And usually it is satan who does that and any person that does it as well, even if is out of their ignorance, is a devil, which means they are an obstacle to God.
Was Peter really a devil? No because in the previous verse Jesus called Peter a Rock on which He would build His church. Contradiction? No, simply we have to take that "devil" figuratively. There are no spirits or anything like that involved. Judas was a different case.
Besides if satan was aware of God's plan for the salvation of mankind, simply he would never drive Jesus on the cross, using Judas.
Allow me to add a few more elements for analysis. JESUS was talking about the fulfillment of the Scriptures about Himself -JESUS is GOD-, when Peter rebuked Him, so He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of GOD, but merely HUMAN concerns." Matthew 16:23NIV
When Peter rebuked JESUS, an unexpected spiritual environment emerged out of the darkness and the Enemy spirit took a clincher/hook in the literal sense, and articulated the pseudo human goodness in Peter's mouth to put a stumble in the way of JESUS, as happened in temptation.
The lesson I draw for myself from the spiritual environment that emerged out in that moment involving Peter in his weakness before the Master, it is that as a human we must have much care to fall not in the same error of Peter Apostle, using our human conceptions and going against the Scriptures, even if our words seems be good and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom.
We need a lot of discernment, no? Ephesians 4:26-27KJV - Sin not ...:
Neither give place to the Devil.
Furthermore, Ephesians 6:10 to 18 in very important for us the lasts, mainly now at midnight, a hour of great danger, according the Word of GOD, and more a TURN of a Day in our GOD's watch as in Genesis 3:8-11 and NOW in Revelation 16:13-15.
Oh I know about the mormon church . I attended their Sunday school very briefly . I was about 15 years and had no biblical knowledge . We were in a sisters class and the lady teacher pulled a ten dollar bill out of her purse and said to us : look at this ! I forgot to pay my tithe last week ! I'm so ashamed , imagine if I had died without paying it ! I would have gone straight to hell ! As you can guess , I never went back , even at that age I knew that salvation cannot be bought .
It is interesting how the man hides the treasure until he can buy the field. Not sure if that is applicable to us not casting pearls before swine; hiding the Word or prayer in our hearts or in the closet or something else related to that. Perhaps it is describing things such as Jesus talking in Parables; as He wanted sincere followers rather than empty praise for those seeking their own glory or wanting to use Christ for their own purposes (as with Judas Iscariot).
Perhaps too (just came up with this one) someone who has many possessions may want to take care of business first; so that they aren't given empty praise or dissuaded from what they are doing prior to hitting the Mission field and abandoning their old lives.
Hi Ideas , thank you for your reply to me . I don't know if you have a concordance or not but they are very helpful . When the word devil is used in the new testament , it could be one of two Greek words . One of those words : daimonion does refer to some sort of demonic being . The other word is diabolos , this word refers to a slanderer or false accuser . When Jesus refers to Judas as a devil it is the word diabolos . Concordances are a great help I think and always worth having .
Let me say right up front that I have no doubt God was active in the healing of your cousin. Just as God is active when any of us are healed of a sickness or a disease.
But when we look at the true miracles that we read about in the Bible, God is clearly setting aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. When God created the world He was actually at the same time establishing those physical laws. When Jesus walked on the water He actually set aside the law of gravity. When Jesus instantly healed the blind and the sick and the lame He was not using the natural processes that work in our bodies. And when He raised Lazarus from the dead, and other the miracles we read about in the Bible; these were all true miracles.
And incidentally, they were performed and included in the Bible as "historical parables" teaching us some aspect of the nature of salvation itself.
As I indicated in my comment to GiGi, there are many many things about the physical laws of nature, including our bodies and medicine that we don't understand, and have come to understand a little bit over time but certainty not completely; like electricity, like radio and TV, like the internet, like nuclear power, like medicine, etc. These things are not miracles; but several hundred years ago they would have seemed so.
So the fact that we witness an event that we cannot explain does not make it a miracle.
And I am quite certain that was the case with your cousin. And you are certainly correct in giving God all of the credit and glory for His recovery.
Also I would not put any stock in the Mormon religion as it is certainly a gospel that looks beyond the Bible for Devine Revelation.
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."
I have to say that I am with you in regard to everything that you say on this subject . You talk sound Biblical sense 100 per cent . I am torn because I believe I witnessed a miracle of healing . Many years ago when I was 15 , just before my young cousins 10th birthday , he was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma . At the time his family were involved with the mormons . I was living with my cousin and his family and so I often accompanied him and his mum my aunty , to the hospital when he went for treatment . Some months into treatment my aunty and I were shown his X rays and it was horrible . We could clearly see that he was full of cancer from his groin to his lungs , we were told that he might survive six months and treatment was stopped . The Mormons arranged some kind of blessing which I did not attend and we all waited for Carl to deteriorate and die . It didn't happen . After a few months we went back to the hospital for a check up , he was X rayed and there was no cancer . He's 51 years old now but not a mormon . I saw all this and cannot explain it . I'm usually in agreement with you on this subject but , I cannot deny what I saw with my own eyes and do see , every time I see my healthy fit alive cousin .
Hi Jimbob , I'm a person who very much believes that the old testament is a foreshadow of the new . So , along those lines , I remember how when God sent those terrible plagues on the Egyptians , the Israelites witnessed them but we're not touched by them . I think it will be similar for us in the last days and that this will be the last proving of our faith , will we stand faithful as we see the kingdoms of men collapsing around us ? Will we panic , will we try to save ourselves ,or will we merely do what the Israelites in Egypt were told to do ? Go in our homes and close the doors ? The same as Rahab when the Israelites invaded Jericho ? That red material that she hung out of her window , is it a coincidence that it was red like the blood of the lamb ? Many things in the Bible happen in three's , have you noticed ? I'm sure you have . So , what's next do you think ? I think that we need to not trust in man when the very tough times come , dont go with the rest of the humans as they run to save themselves , we must trust in God and wait for our Salvation from above . We must not behave in the same way non believers do , panicking and trying to save themselves and their worldly goods . We must stay put , stay calm and wait for our God . He is a consuming fire but , we've been told , the heat of the day won't touch us , the same way that the Israelites in the desert were sheltered from the heat by the pillar of the cloud . Christ is our Pillar in the desert . We must shelter in Him .
Hi Texsis. One can understand why Paul wrote this oft-quoted "to the Jew first", as he longed for his people who waited for the Messiah, would also like him, come to know that the Scriptures indeed were being fulfilled before their very eyes in Jesus ( Romans 10:1,2).
And so it was, that God had not forgotten or cast away His people ( Romans 11:1), but that the Messiah would be appointed & sent by God to Israel for their salvation - and what did they do? John 1:11, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not". Jesus saw their hard stubborn hearts, yet could still weep for them ( Luke 19:41,42). And as you wrote & implied, not only did they reject Jesus, ridiculed Him & crucified Him, but the day would come when they would recognize Him.
Paul wrote in Romans 11:12,15, "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" For now, by their rejection, the Jews have failed to know & appropriate the immeasurable Love & Grace of God for them and by their "fall & diminishing", the Gentiles have been granted salvation through the preaching of the Gospel. So, if by their casting away, the rest of the world can find reconciliation through Jesus' Sacrifice, Paul exhibits great exhilaration, that when Israel finally turns to Christ, it would be akin to a resurrection from death & corruption to a glorious new life.
And those of Israel who come to salvation, through much suffering now & particularly in the time of Great Tribulation, will also join the saved from the Gentiles ( Galatians 3:28,29). Yet there will be much rejoicing because Elect Israel is truly the "beloved for the fathers' sakes" ( Romans 11:28: Elect, for the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, & Israel). So, it was always "the Jew first", but all who are IN Christ Jesus are special & precious.
The face value of the statement you quoted does not imply additions or subtraction to the words of God as I previously stated to you, so it was not for face value that you responsed.
in your apology, you state "if" you misrepresented their beliefs, there's no 'if" to it.
David your apology is evasive & shifty, then you reinforce your statement of your beliefs, in all this, it makes this attempted apology void. its the same tactics you colored over your erroneous statement of "visions & dream" with GiGi.
Psalms 15:1-4
Friend, I been here, God would not let me near Him, the intimacy & closeness that I intensely craved, to really know Him. as a Father knows a son, & son knows his father was shut to me, His all discerning eyes penetrate my thickest covering, I had to come clean every wit, before His wrath was remove & remission of the transgression of granted & fellowship was restored. Hebrews 12:11
Then came I to a more enlightened understanding of King David prayer, Psalms 51:6 & I rejoice in His judgments for they were meant for my cleansing to bring me back to the intimate fellowship & only became my condemnation when I reject them.
I learnt by experience that the difference between "all that are call & the few that are chosen", is how we respond to Him in these crucial moments in our relationship with Him & our fellow human beings.
I pray that this helps in making a clean break, remember who we war against Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule & reign in the hearts & minds of mankind, they have been doing this for a long time, & to be honest, if we look at the condition of the world & church today, they're pretty good at it, so we must not remain ignorant of their devices.
A love for the Truth in the inward parts alone defeats them, who is Christ, the Armor, Wisdom & Power of God.
I don't have a question!! Shocker LOL I actually just have to say Praise to the blood and the lamb of GOD!!
We serve a mighty GOD. Jeus Has been the best part of my life, the fact that he gave me a sinner a choice to have a relationship with him. Thank you, Jesus, for loving me and thank you for my hope a future and thank you for being the center of my everything!! I just wanted to Thank you Jesus for all you've done an continue to do in my life! PRAISE THE MIGHTY LAMB OF GOD IN JESUS NAME AMEN!!!
Giannis thank you for your comment. You are describing God's wrath Giannis, True Believers in Jesus Christ are not appointed to wrath ( 1 Thess. 5:9) but we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God ( Acts. 14:22)
The word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble.
The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.
Do you not see there is a big difference in these two words? God's wrath is violent passion and punishment, anger, God's vengeance on the disobedient non-believers who are left on the earth. Then we have pressure, affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble as being tested during the tribulation period?
Immediately AFTER the tribulation Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect ( Mt. 24:29-31) God does not pour out His wrath until after all True Believers are with the Lord in the clouds.
( Mt. 24:40-42) v40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left". Those left are the disobedient ones, the non-believers in Jesus Christ who will face the wrath of God on the earth ( Eph. 5:6) also ( Col. 3:6)
Then we have ( Jn. 3:36) "He that ((believeth on the Son)) hath everlasting life (those who are taken) and he that ((believeth not the Son)) shall not see life; but ((the wrath of God abideth on him))". (those left on the earth)
Seeing the tribulation period and the wrath of God as the same time period will only cause confusion in understanding the prophecies for the Lastdays.
At the same time God is pouring out His wrath on the non-believers on the earth, all True Believers are at the marriage supper of the Lamb ( Rev. 19:7-9) then after this Jesus Christ comes back riding a white horse ( Rev. 19:11-16) (with) those who met Him in the clouds, this return will end the wrath of God and begin the 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.
I know virtually nothing about Quaker beliefs and took the statement from their web site at face value.
If I have misrepresented their belief, or yours, regarding the nature of the Bible and additional Devine Revelation in our day, my sincere apology to you and the Quakers.
I do hope, however, that I have made my understanding of what the Bible is teaching regarding this matter clear in my comments.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.
BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO DESOLATE.
For I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT DEE ME HENCEFORTH, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
God left their house abandoned, and how can they still be His chosen people?
The book of Revelation is about much more than just end time events. And it, like every other book in the Bible is an integral part of the Word of God as a Whole. So if we add or take away something to or from Revelation we have added or taken away from the Word of God, the Bible, of which God is the Author.
So we have to make a decision. Is the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY going to be our AUTHORITY; or is the Bible PLUS a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue that we believe came directly from God our AUTHORITY.
That is not an insignificant or inconsequential decision.
There is a huge difference between the tribulations, persecutions, hardships, trials which all of that can be summed up to the "cross" we, christians, have to bear on our shoulders during the course of our christian life and the great Tribulation that will occur just before the end
All the tribulations we suffer in this life initiate either by satan, or by the sinful world and often by our wrong choices in life BUT never from God. The great Tribulation is not like any other tribulation in this world. Only the great flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah can be compared to that But the latter were local tribulations/punishments, this time it will affect the whole world. That tribulation will be God's condemnation of the sinful world, His anger will be poured on earth. So as you can see they are completely different things.
Jesus said that at the end it will be like Noah's or Lot's days. First the Lord took them away and then His punishment came to those places. And this is sensible. How could the righteous people suffer during God's condemnation of the sinful world? Abraham asked the Lord, " if there are 10 righteous people in these cities still you will destruct those places? " No said the Lord. God can not destruct the sinful world as long as His people are still on earth. First He will remove them and then the Flood will come.
The specific verse at the end of Rev you stated is about the prophesy. Which prophesy? The Revelation. We cannot generalize it for the whole Scripture. It is specifically about the Revelation. And you know why? Because the Lord wants people who will be going through those events, they should know what exactly will be going on and how to face it. So nothing must be added or subtracted.
This does not mean that one can add or subtract from other parts of the Bible. But. Think about all those tenths of different christian beliefs. They are often very different between them. Some explain things in a different way, others have added things like the R/Catholics, other have subtracted things. So what is going to be the end of this whole thing? Who is going to be saved if that verse is applicable to the whole Bible? Almost none, isn't it so? Just a few teams. Think of the first Christian Hebrew church. Thousands of them followed the Mosaic Law as well as the gospel under the tolerance of the apostles. Did God reject them? No. Thousands of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox christians although they are born again they follow customs and practices added to the Gospel. Does God reject them? Once more, no. So we can not apply the warnings of that verse to the whole Bible.
In a field there was a cross, and on it Jesus. His Blood was pouring down the earth. A large eagle was approaching from far far away. That eagle was the mankind. The eagle looked exhausted, with no strength, ready to fall down, it could hardly fly. The eagle approached the cross. It went down at Jesus' feet. Jesus' Blood made a little pool on the ground. The eagle took Jesus ' Blood with its peak and started washing its body with it, poured it all over its body.. Doing that he was filled with power. He looked strong and healthy now. It jumped to the air and flew away from the cross and continue its trip to its destination.
It is true that God reveals Himself to His people since the very beginning, He never stopped doing that, one way or another. The same way He revealed Himself to Abraham, the same way he does today. Is there any possibility that a father does not want to communicate with His children? No, there isn't, isn't it so? We haven't believed in myths and fairy tales but in a true and existing God who always has made clear to His people that He is there to support and help them, with real proofs. He goes very personal sometimes when He knows there is a need. The idea that God wrote some scripture to us some thousands years ago and then this is it, no communication any more, is not right. Just think of yourself. You, say,, have a kid, then when he is a child you leave a note to him with instructions on how he should live his life and then you go secret for the rest of his life, just observing him from a distance. Sounds sensible? To me, no it doesn't.
About visions now. If a vision is about something very personal, then yes it should remain private. But if it is not something that has to be a secret and it helps others as well, why not tell them? I got very lifted up with my wife's visions. Of course they are about her, but they made me feel that God is real, we often forget that in our everyday life, lost in our struggles and obligations to cope with this life. It is good to always have a proof that God is watching us all the time, then peace comes to our minds, we are not alone out there, there is somebody who is capable of everything and that person is our heavenly Father.
I don't know which website you personally found this, I've stated a few times the writing of the Quakers, specifically between 1646-1700.
But,
Lets look at what you found & quoted:
""That leads us to the second key principle, our belief in continued revelation. In the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, we read many stories of God communicating directly with people. Friends believe God's revelations have never stopped, and that God might reach out to any one of us at any time."
They're referencing the Bible, it does not say anything concerning addition or subtraction from the Scriptures was made. Could it be an opening of their understanding of the Scriptures? This would be a continuing revelation as the Scriptures give witness to. John 16:131Cor 3:2
God must be free to speak to the relevant things in our lives & society, this would be a revelation too!
David0921
You're the one who are injecting this prejudice opinion of Divine Revelation apart from the Bible that's no were stated here in your quote!
One other thing that been on my heart to speak to you, if you would just open yourself to Holy Spirit & allow Him to speak, move & work in you His own Way, & that would be spiritually, what a bond-servant Christ would have for Himself in you. His Spirit was sent to replace Christ manifestation in the flesh, John 16:7 to teach us all things, is not a lie, & to be ever present with us, I've been pointing this out Scripturally over & over, but it appears that for now it is hidden from you, for you have not had enough humble pie from you last "no visions or dreams statement.
Friend; just for the record, I've had many, many, many humble pies through the years, His longsuffering love was exceedingly extend towards me, blessing & praise to His Holy Name.
Romans 1:16 -2:10 mentions 3 times "to the Jew first & then to the Gentile/Greek".! Reading them Im not understanding Gods purpose of placing It in that order. Is it because He knew they'd be harder to turn to Christ? And whats the signifacance of them remaining His 'chosen' ppl after they had Jesus crusified? it does make sense "if" when they Finally Realize who Jesus truly was/is, they will be so happy they found Gods truth they will be more faithful servents,.! Any other ideas or facts?
Jema thank you for your comment. The time period the Bible calls great tribulation will be the final test for all Believers still alive before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. In ( 2 Thess. 2:3) We are told "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (that day is the return of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him as we are told in ( 2 Thess. 2:1) the rapture) except there come a (falling away) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".
The words (falling away) is #646; it means defection from truth, ["apostasy"] something separative, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
The final test for Believers will cause many to fallaway from the truth. What is truth? ( John. 14:6)
The (writing of) divorcement would have to be True Believers who fallaway from the truth, from Jesus Christ!
Life may be one long test as you said Jema, but the tribulation period will be the final test (a time of trouble like never was before) the Bible speaks of that many will fail according to ( 2 Thess. 2:3). They fallaway.
I agree Jema when life gets you down we should be praying harder.
The falling away will be True Believers and if the return of our Lord Jesus Christ for His church is AFTER the tribulation as we see in ( Mt. 24:29-31) then the falling away could possibly be those who think they will be saved or rescued (before the tribulation period) and when they are facing really troublesome times they will loose their faith and fall away from Jesus Christ, thus receiving a (writing of) divorcement.
I do not post to be in agreement with others like many here seem to think is so important.
I try to show the truth when many others see things another way, that's much more important than just being in agreement with someone else.
This is why I post so much on this subject, it is truly an important one! And as this comment will show I do see it as a salvation issue!
It is God that must work in the understanding of the True Believer to reveal Truth from the Bible. And God is certainly the one that opens doors for the True Gospel to go forth. And He also works in the lives of True Believers to direct them by causing various circumstances to develop in their lives, sometime as chastisement. These things are Very Different from receiving Devine Revelation from God as occurred before the Bible was completed.
As far as miracles are concerned, we must first define what a miracle is. When God created the world, when Jesus walked on water, when Jesus healed miraculously, i.e. any Miracle at all IS when God sets aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. God is not doing this today.
Any time anyone becomes healed from a sickness or a disease, it is God at work. But it is not a Miracle. Mankind does not understand all of the workings of the human body nor the affects of medicines. Healings of our day may seem miraculous, but they are not. They are God at work through the natural laws and processes He has established to govern the world and our well being.
There is one very specific Miracle that God has performed throughout time and is still performing today. And that is the Miracle of Salvation where God creates a New Resurrected Soul within each person that becomes saved. That is becoming Born Again.
So, GiGi, it really comes down to: What is the "Word" of God that we are following and that is our Authority? Is it the Bible Alone and in its Entirety; or is it the Bible plus a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue that we believe we have received directly from God. We cannot have it both ways.
And I believe that God insists on the former and warns against the latter. And that is why we have Revelation 22:18,19 at the very end of the Bible.
In my opinion that event is simpler than you described it. Simply Peter thought as a normal person when he rebuked his Lord. He spoke out of his feelings for Jesus.. Anybody would have done the same. So why did Jesus call him devil? Because he wanted to show to Peter (and to us) that anything, even if it comes out of our good intentions, must be removed if it is an obstacle to God's plan. And usually it is satan who does that and any person that does it as well, even if is out of their ignorance, is a devil, which means they are an obstacle to God.
Was Peter really a devil? No because in the previous verse Jesus called Peter a Rock on which He would build His church. Contradiction? No, simply we have to take that "devil" figuratively. There are no spirits or anything like that involved. Judas was a different case.
Besides if satan was aware of God's plan for the salvation of mankind, simply he would never drive Jesus on the cross, using Judas.
GBU
Thank you for your reply
Allow me to add a few more elements for analysis. JESUS was talking about the fulfillment of the Scriptures about Himself -JESUS is GOD-, when Peter rebuked Him, so He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of GOD, but merely HUMAN concerns." Matthew 16:23NIV
When Peter rebuked JESUS, an unexpected spiritual environment emerged out of the darkness and the Enemy spirit took a clincher/hook in the literal sense, and articulated the pseudo human goodness in Peter's mouth to put a stumble in the way of JESUS, as happened in temptation.
The lesson I draw for myself from the spiritual environment that emerged out in that moment involving Peter in his weakness before the Master, it is that as a human we must have much care to fall not in the same error of Peter Apostle, using our human conceptions and going against the Scriptures, even if our words seems be good and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom.
We need a lot of discernment, no? Ephesians 4:26-27KJV - Sin not ...:
Neither give place to the Devil.
Furthermore, Ephesians 6:10 to 18 in very important for us the lasts, mainly now at midnight, a hour of great danger, according the Word of GOD, and more a TURN of a Day in our GOD's watch as in Genesis 3:8-11 and NOW in Revelation 16:13-15.
GOD BLESS
Perhaps too (just came up with this one) someone who has many possessions may want to take care of business first; so that they aren't given empty praise or dissuaded from what they are doing prior to hitting the Mission field and abandoning their old lives.
Food for thought..
Thank you for your comment.
Let me say right up front that I have no doubt God was active in the healing of your cousin. Just as God is active when any of us are healed of a sickness or a disease.
But when we look at the true miracles that we read about in the Bible, God is clearly setting aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. When God created the world He was actually at the same time establishing those physical laws. When Jesus walked on the water He actually set aside the law of gravity. When Jesus instantly healed the blind and the sick and the lame He was not using the natural processes that work in our bodies. And when He raised Lazarus from the dead, and other the miracles we read about in the Bible; these were all true miracles.
And incidentally, they were performed and included in the Bible as "historical parables" teaching us some aspect of the nature of salvation itself.
As I indicated in my comment to GiGi, there are many many things about the physical laws of nature, including our bodies and medicine that we don't understand, and have come to understand a little bit over time but certainty not completely; like electricity, like radio and TV, like the internet, like nuclear power, like medicine, etc. These things are not miracles; but several hundred years ago they would have seemed so.
So the fact that we witness an event that we cannot explain does not make it a miracle.
And I am quite certain that was the case with your cousin. And you are certainly correct in giving God all of the credit and glory for His recovery.
Also I would not put any stock in the Mormon religion as it is certainly a gospel that looks beyond the Bible for Devine Revelation.
Respectfully,
David
Matthew 13:44
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."
Something to think about.
And so it was, that God had not forgotten or cast away His people ( Romans 11:1), but that the Messiah would be appointed & sent by God to Israel for their salvation - and what did they do? John 1:11, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not". Jesus saw their hard stubborn hearts, yet could still weep for them ( Luke 19:41,42). And as you wrote & implied, not only did they reject Jesus, ridiculed Him & crucified Him, but the day would come when they would recognize Him.
Paul wrote in Romans 11:12,15, "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" For now, by their rejection, the Jews have failed to know & appropriate the immeasurable Love & Grace of God for them and by their "fall & diminishing", the Gentiles have been granted salvation through the preaching of the Gospel. So, if by their casting away, the rest of the world can find reconciliation through Jesus' Sacrifice, Paul exhibits great exhilaration, that when Israel finally turns to Christ, it would be akin to a resurrection from death & corruption to a glorious new life.
And those of Israel who come to salvation, through much suffering now & particularly in the time of Great Tribulation, will also join the saved from the Gentiles ( Galatians 3:28,29). Yet there will be much rejoicing because Elect Israel is truly the "beloved for the fathers' sakes" ( Romans 11:28: Elect, for the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, & Israel). So, it was always "the Jew first", but all who are IN Christ Jesus are special & precious.
The face value of the statement you quoted does not imply additions or subtraction to the words of God as I previously stated to you, so it was not for face value that you responsed.
in your apology, you state "if" you misrepresented their beliefs, there's no 'if" to it.
David your apology is evasive & shifty, then you reinforce your statement of your beliefs, in all this, it makes this attempted apology void. its the same tactics you colored over your erroneous statement of "visions & dream" with GiGi.
Psalms 15:1-4
Friend, I been here, God would not let me near Him, the intimacy & closeness that I intensely craved, to really know Him. as a Father knows a son, & son knows his father was shut to me, His all discerning eyes penetrate my thickest covering, I had to come clean every wit, before His wrath was remove & remission of the transgression of granted & fellowship was restored. Hebrews 12:11
Then came I to a more enlightened understanding of King David prayer, Psalms 51:6 & I rejoice in His judgments for they were meant for my cleansing to bring me back to the intimate fellowship & only became my condemnation when I reject them.
I learnt by experience that the difference between "all that are call & the few that are chosen", is how we respond to Him in these crucial moments in our relationship with Him & our fellow human beings.
I pray that this helps in making a clean break, remember who we war against Ephesians 6:12 who seek to rule & reign in the hearts & minds of mankind, they have been doing this for a long time, & to be honest, if we look at the condition of the world & church today, they're pretty good at it, so we must not remain ignorant of their devices.
A love for the Truth in the inward parts alone defeats them, who is Christ, the Armor, Wisdom & Power of God.
Proverbs 18:12
In love & Truth
We serve a mighty GOD. Jeus Has been the best part of my life, the fact that he gave me a sinner a choice to have a relationship with him. Thank you, Jesus, for loving me and thank you for my hope a future and thank you for being the center of my everything!! I just wanted to Thank you Jesus for all you've done an continue to do in my life! PRAISE THE MIGHTY LAMB OF GOD IN JESUS NAME AMEN!!!
The word (tribulation) is #2347; it means pressure, afflicted (-tion) anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble.
The word (wrath) is #3709; it means violent passion, or [justifiable] abhorrence, by implying punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.
Do you not see there is a big difference in these two words? God's wrath is violent passion and punishment, anger, God's vengeance on the disobedient non-believers who are left on the earth. Then we have pressure, affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble as being tested during the tribulation period?
Immediately AFTER the tribulation Jesus comes in the clouds to gather together His elect ( Mt. 24:29-31) God does not pour out His wrath until after all True Believers are with the Lord in the clouds.
( Mt. 24:40-42) v40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left". Those left are the disobedient ones, the non-believers in Jesus Christ who will face the wrath of God on the earth ( Eph. 5:6) also ( Col. 3:6)
Then we have ( Jn. 3:36) "He that ((believeth on the Son)) hath everlasting life (those who are taken) and he that ((believeth not the Son)) shall not see life; but ((the wrath of God abideth on him))". (those left on the earth)
Seeing the tribulation period and the wrath of God as the same time period will only cause confusion in understanding the prophecies for the Lastdays.
At the same time God is pouring out His wrath on the non-believers on the earth, all True Believers are at the marriage supper of the Lamb ( Rev. 19:7-9) then after this Jesus Christ comes back riding a white horse ( Rev. 19:11-16) (with) those who met Him in the clouds, this return will end the wrath of God and begin the 1000 reign of Christ on the earth.
Blessings to you Giannis.
I know virtually nothing about Quaker beliefs and took the statement from their web site at face value.
If I have misrepresented their belief, or yours, regarding the nature of the Bible and additional Devine Revelation in our day, my sincere apology to you and the Quakers.
I do hope, however, that I have made my understanding of what the Bible is teaching regarding this matter clear in my comments.
Thank you. And may God richly bless you.
As Jesus was approaching Jerusalem, He said that:
Matthew 23:37-39,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.
BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO DESOLATE.
For I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT DEE ME HENCEFORTH, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
God left their house abandoned, and how can they still be His chosen people?
And May God richly bless you.
Thanks for your reply. At this point, I don't feel a need to reply more than what I have already shared with you. But I do appreciate your input.
The book of Revelation is about much more than just end time events. And it, like every other book in the Bible is an integral part of the Word of God as a Whole. So if we add or take away something to or from Revelation we have added or taken away from the Word of God, the Bible, of which God is the Author.
So we have to make a decision. Is the Bible ALONE and in its ENTIRETY going to be our AUTHORITY; or is the Bible PLUS a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue that we believe came directly from God our AUTHORITY.
That is not an insignificant or inconsequential decision.
There is a huge difference between the tribulations, persecutions, hardships, trials which all of that can be summed up to the "cross" we, christians, have to bear on our shoulders during the course of our christian life and the great Tribulation that will occur just before the end
All the tribulations we suffer in this life initiate either by satan, or by the sinful world and often by our wrong choices in life BUT never from God. The great Tribulation is not like any other tribulation in this world. Only the great flood and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah can be compared to that But the latter were local tribulations/punishments, this time it will affect the whole world. That tribulation will be God's condemnation of the sinful world, His anger will be poured on earth. So as you can see they are completely different things.
Jesus said that at the end it will be like Noah's or Lot's days. First the Lord took them away and then His punishment came to those places. And this is sensible. How could the righteous people suffer during God's condemnation of the sinful world? Abraham asked the Lord, " if there are 10 righteous people in these cities still you will destruct those places? " No said the Lord. God can not destruct the sinful world as long as His people are still on earth. First He will remove them and then the Flood will come.
GBU
The specific verse at the end of Rev you stated is about the prophesy. Which prophesy? The Revelation. We cannot generalize it for the whole Scripture. It is specifically about the Revelation. And you know why? Because the Lord wants people who will be going through those events, they should know what exactly will be going on and how to face it. So nothing must be added or subtracted.
This does not mean that one can add or subtract from other parts of the Bible. But. Think about all those tenths of different christian beliefs. They are often very different between them. Some explain things in a different way, others have added things like the R/Catholics, other have subtracted things. So what is going to be the end of this whole thing? Who is going to be saved if that verse is applicable to the whole Bible? Almost none, isn't it so? Just a few teams. Think of the first Christian Hebrew church. Thousands of them followed the Mosaic Law as well as the gospel under the tolerance of the apostles. Did God reject them? No. Thousands of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox christians although they are born again they follow customs and practices added to the Gospel. Does God reject them? Once more, no. So we can not apply the warnings of that verse to the whole Bible.
GBU
A vision a brother had.
In a field there was a cross, and on it Jesus. His Blood was pouring down the earth. A large eagle was approaching from far far away. That eagle was the mankind. The eagle looked exhausted, with no strength, ready to fall down, it could hardly fly. The eagle approached the cross. It went down at Jesus' feet. Jesus' Blood made a little pool on the ground. The eagle took Jesus ' Blood with its peak and started washing its body with it, poured it all over its body.. Doing that he was filled with power. He looked strong and healthy now. It jumped to the air and flew away from the cross and continue its trip to its destination.
It is true that God reveals Himself to His people since the very beginning, He never stopped doing that, one way or another. The same way He revealed Himself to Abraham, the same way he does today. Is there any possibility that a father does not want to communicate with His children? No, there isn't, isn't it so? We haven't believed in myths and fairy tales but in a true and existing God who always has made clear to His people that He is there to support and help them, with real proofs. He goes very personal sometimes when He knows there is a need. The idea that God wrote some scripture to us some thousands years ago and then this is it, no communication any more, is not right. Just think of yourself. You, say,, have a kid, then when he is a child you leave a note to him with instructions on how he should live his life and then you go secret for the rest of his life, just observing him from a distance. Sounds sensible? To me, no it doesn't.
About visions now. If a vision is about something very personal, then yes it should remain private. But if it is not something that has to be a secret and it helps others as well, why not tell them? I got very lifted up with my wife's visions. Of course they are about her, but they made me feel that God is real, we often forget that in our everyday life, lost in our struggles and obligations to cope with this life. It is good to always have a proof that God is watching us all the time, then peace comes to our minds, we are not alone out there, there is somebody who is capable of everything and that person is our heavenly Father.
WE ARE NOT ALONE, thanks God.
GBU
I don't know which website you personally found this, I've stated a few times the writing of the Quakers, specifically between 1646-1700.
But,
Lets look at what you found & quoted:
""That leads us to the second key principle, our belief in continued revelation. In the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, we read many stories of God communicating directly with people. Friends believe God's revelations have never stopped, and that God might reach out to any one of us at any time."
They're referencing the Bible, it does not say anything concerning addition or subtraction from the Scriptures was made. Could it be an opening of their understanding of the Scriptures? This would be a continuing revelation as the Scriptures give witness to. John 16:13 1Cor 3:2
God must be free to speak to the relevant things in our lives & society, this would be a revelation too!
David0921
You're the one who are injecting this prejudice opinion of Divine Revelation apart from the Bible that's no were stated here in your quote!
One other thing that been on my heart to speak to you, if you would just open yourself to Holy Spirit & allow Him to speak, move & work in you His own Way, & that would be spiritually, what a bond-servant Christ would have for Himself in you. His Spirit was sent to replace Christ manifestation in the flesh, John 16:7 to teach us all things, is not a lie, & to be ever present with us, I've been pointing this out Scripturally over & over, but it appears that for now it is hidden from you, for you have not had enough humble pie from you last "no visions or dreams statement.
Friend; just for the record, I've had many, many, many humble pies through the years, His longsuffering love was exceedingly extend towards me, blessing & praise to His Holy Name.
Proverbs 6:23 1 Pet 5:5
In love & truth
The words (falling away) is #646; it means defection from truth, ["apostasy"] something separative, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
The final test for Believers will cause many to fallaway from the truth. What is truth? ( John. 14:6)
The (writing of) divorcement would have to be True Believers who fallaway from the truth, from Jesus Christ!
Life may be one long test as you said Jema, but the tribulation period will be the final test (a time of trouble like never was before) the Bible speaks of that many will fail according to ( 2 Thess. 2:3). They fallaway.
I agree Jema when life gets you down we should be praying harder.
The falling away will be True Believers and if the return of our Lord Jesus Christ for His church is AFTER the tribulation as we see in ( Mt. 24:29-31) then the falling away could possibly be those who think they will be saved or rescued (before the tribulation period) and when they are facing really troublesome times they will loose their faith and fall away from Jesus Christ, thus receiving a (writing of) divorcement.
I do not post to be in agreement with others like many here seem to think is so important.
I try to show the truth when many others see things another way, that's much more important than just being in agreement with someone else.
This is why I post so much on this subject, it is truly an important one! And as this comment will show I do see it as a salvation issue!
God Bless you Jema.
It is God that must work in the understanding of the True Believer to reveal Truth from the Bible. And God is certainly the one that opens doors for the True Gospel to go forth. And He also works in the lives of True Believers to direct them by causing various circumstances to develop in their lives, sometime as chastisement. These things are Very Different from receiving Devine Revelation from God as occurred before the Bible was completed.
As far as miracles are concerned, we must first define what a miracle is. When God created the world, when Jesus walked on water, when Jesus healed miraculously, i.e. any Miracle at all IS when God sets aside the physical laws by which He governs the Universe. God is not doing this today.
Any time anyone becomes healed from a sickness or a disease, it is God at work. But it is not a Miracle. Mankind does not understand all of the workings of the human body nor the affects of medicines. Healings of our day may seem miraculous, but they are not. They are God at work through the natural laws and processes He has established to govern the world and our well being.
There is one very specific Miracle that God has performed throughout time and is still performing today. And that is the Miracle of Salvation where God creates a New Resurrected Soul within each person that becomes saved. That is becoming Born Again.
So, GiGi, it really comes down to: What is the "Word" of God that we are following and that is our Authority? Is it the Bible Alone and in its Entirety; or is it the Bible plus a dream or a vision or a voice or a tongue that we believe we have received directly from God. We cannot have it both ways.
And I believe that God insists on the former and warns against the latter. And that is why we have Revelation 22:18,19 at the very end of the Bible.