Yes , thankyou to everyone who has replied to me on this thread . You are correct , the best any Christian can be is a vessel , a vessel of God's love and mercy , may we all be blessed by God to be a vessel for Him to use for whatever purpose He pleases , He is righteous and we are just clay pots :) may He fill us with His Truth and may He send Christ back to us ever so soon . Thy Kingdom Come ! I knew a lady at church , older than me , who would never talk about the Truth . She would talk about only light things , the weather , her holidays , her grandchildren etc . It kind of got on my nerves a bit but I tried not to show it . Evidently I wasn't successful , one day , after she had been waffling on to me about something that was not even vaguely interesting to me , she took a deep breath , looked me straight in the eye and said : I'm sorry I talk too much and never about the things that really matter . The Truth overwhelms me and if I try to talk about it I always start to cry and I make a fool of myself . Please forgive me . I did instantly and realised that we are not all the same :) . It's easy for some of us to speak from our hearts , I always do , which is why I don't always say the right thing :) . Some of us guard our hearts more than others and tend to stick to scripture or a script because we like to keep our hearts under control . God knows us all and loves us all and accepts us all because He can use all of us in His own ways , He makes use of our own personalities , strengths and weaknesses to fulfill His purpose . I think we all have to recognise that we are not all the same and we don't have to be , we are all members of the Body of Christ but we are different members , some of us are hands , some of us are feet etc , we are all needed for the Body to fit together . This is why we have to accept that someone is Christian even if they are a bit different to us , they are still Christians and we need to treat each other with compassion and respect .
Please pray for my mom, she still suffers from sciatica, and now has bad hip pain.
Please also pray for me, I have been so idle lately and haven't been spending my time in the ways that I should. May I find things to do in my spare time that honor and glorify the Lord.
I am going to overlook most of what you posted her concerning me.
But I do want to point out that you here admit that you think Paul was a brilliant man. That is what I said in my original response to the lead of this thread. And when I said it, you began debating me. We both agree that our own abilities mean nothing if not brought under the authority and work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I conclude that this whole debate is needless. You did not need to go down this road with me. I don't know why you did. But as it is, I am done with this discussion with you. I will consider what you have said of me. I am certainly open for criticism, but I was not in any way was speaking from a carnal position nor praising man rather than God.
Likely too, Saul before conversion knew the Books of Moses well.
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 KJV
The LORD God spoke this to the serpent with Adam and Eve able to hear and believe before they were removed from the Garden.
Good afternoon Friends, I would believe that Paul understood what he spoke and wrote by his own experience in being washed by regeneration and renewed by the Holy Ghost. With this being true, Paul understood the Promise was from the beginning.
It sound like you are in the midst of a change in your life and need direction from the Lord in choosing the best thing. I can pray for you again right now.
Dear Heavenly Father, we always come to You in prayer int he name of Jesus, because He told us to do so and said You will answer! Texsis and I are asking that You guide her in this possible move. Raise up her spirits to be feeling more gladdened on heart. It probably best for us to not make important decisions when we are feeling down, so Texsis does need you to work in her right now to be uplifted and sober minded concerning this possibility. We know that You are with us always wherever we may be living or wherever we go. So, asking that You give Texsis clear direction here. She is concerned about the temptation to return to her former life she lived while in Utah. Keep her from ever going back to that way of living, Father. Strengthen her to repel all temptations towards falling into a sin-filled lifestyle. Sanctify her today and empower her to resist whet ever tempted her before. We know how much You love us and desire for us to be holy and godly in our life. So, guide Texsis to the situation that will be most helpful to her to live this way for You. Amen.
S. Spencer, I do not disagree with the Scriptures you quoted at all. Paul is saying that he was not putting forward to those he preached to his own words, but the words of the Holy Spirit as he was anointed to do so. though very intelligent, he submitted to the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He was not looking to impress anyone with his natural abilities, but to impress them with the need for salvation in Christ.
As one reads the epistles of Paul it is very apparent that he is one God had gifted in communicating in speech and writing. He did not all of a sudden become literate and effective in these things upon conversion. He says elsewhere where he was trained by Gamaliel, so he could read and write easily.
Steven, my concern here is that you seem to be are denigrating the value of being intelligent in your replies to me. I do agree that we cannot be puffed up in our own knowledge or prideful of our talents. I was not doing that as you imply. On the flip side, we cannot be anti-intellectual in our approach to spiritual things either. Both intellectualism and anti-intellectualism are detrimental to any believer. We are to be balanced in this area and humble enough to know that we need to abide by the counsel of the Holy Spirit in all matters in our lives. But we are not to speak badly about talents God has given us. They are gifts and blessings and we should view them as such, knowing that these, along with all aspects of our persons and abilities are to be submitted to the workings of the Holy Spirit.
I don't think we really have anything to continue discussing here. I stand by what I have written and it is fine if you stand by what you have written. I think the issue is in how you interpret what I have written due to your predisposition about the topic of intellectual gifts. You see them as a negative. I see them as a positive as long as one uses them in obedience to God's will and direction.
Way back when (probably 1986) I started seeking the "Pentecostal experience" As I read scripture, it is a separate and distinct experience over and above the indwelling we receive when we get saved. I could go through and give you all kinds of scripture references about it, but to me that's all dry and stuffy and would make me sound like a theolgian/pastor and all biblical and stuff - let's get real here - I received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. When I began speaking in that beautiful, unknown language, my eyed popped open and all I could do was stare down at my mouth and watch. Yes, I was doing the speaking as the Spirit gave me the "words" to say. Ain't no way you can tell me tongues ain't real!!!! The Devil isn't going to give you something that will make you love Jesus more, make you want to devour God's Word and give you power to take His Word to others.
Here is the basis of Jema's very important question.
Quoting Jema.
The thing that puzzles me is : 'promised before the world began' , where did Paul get this specific information from at that time ? I guess Paul was wise for his time , we know because we have the full Bible , old and new and we can discern the big picture . We can recognise that it was God's perpose all along , to creat a people who would love Him and want to be with Him , where and how did Paul find this out ?
The only way this could be revealed to Paul is by divine intervention by the words of Christ assisted by the Holyspirit.
Paul was sharing what was revealed to him as did the other Disciples and Apostles.
The Holyspirit is our strength today, He assist our teaching and reveals truth to the blood tipped ear.
The Ministry of the Holyspirit and our total dependency on him is paramount to the Christian fate.
In this chapter the apostle directs them about the use of their spiritual gifts, preferring those that are best and fitted to do the greatest good. I. He begins with advising them of all spiritual gifts to prefer prophesying, and shows that this is much better than speaking with tongues, ver 1-5. II. He goes on to show them how unprofitable the speaking of foreign languages is, and useless to the church; it is like piping in one tone, like sounding a trumpet without any certain note, like talking gibberish; whereas gifts should be used for the good of the church, ver 6-14. III. He advises that worship should be celebrated so that the most ignorant might understand, and join in prayer and praise, and presses the advice by his own example, ver 15-20. IV. He informs them that tongues were a sign for unbelievers rather than those that believe; and represents the advantage of prophecy above speaking with tongues, from the different suggestions they would give to the mind of an unbeliever coming into their assemblies, ver 21-25.
You said you disagree with me about his natural abilities. He was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities that God used.
And you said you don't think Paul is meaning in the verses I quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion.
Re examine my post, I didn't say either of those things.
Here's all I said; Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.
Referring to this verse.
1 Timothy 1:13-14.
And IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.
Everything else I posted that you disagree with was scripture I copied pasted and posted.
The emphasis is that NO! God doesn't need anything intellectual from anyone and nor does he seek out those things.
The reason being is that we will do exactly what you are displaying now. Glory man and not God.
Listen to Paul again here in
1 Corinthians 2:1-4.
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
FOR I DETERMINED NOT TO KNOW ANY THING AMONG YOU! save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
AND MY SPEECH AND MY PREACHING WAS NOT WITH ENTICING WORDS OF MAN'S WISDOM, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:
Paul says he came to them as someone Knowing nothing!
This section of scripture Parallels with the passage you disagree with in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
When we are born again we start out as babes in Christ and we feed on the sincere milk of the word whereby we grow, as Peter mentioned in his epistle.
The Holyspirit is the most neglected member of the Godhead amongst the Church,
That's why there is so much ignorance in the word of God.
There's many verses that disagree with you
Philippians 3:4-8.
So I disagree with your take that God blessed and prepared Paul with intellect to prepare him for ministry.
Paul was a chosen vessel. As you have said before His nature was inbred in the things of the law, a Pharisee of Pharisee, from the tribe of Benjamin. With this knowledge why didn't He recognize the truth of Christ ,through the prophets words. Was it because it wasn't accepted as the truth by the Jews? Peer pressure to go ahead ,killing those who were believers?
That in itself would be enough to convert anyone that Jesus is the Son of God.
Imagine, even so today the prominent Jews reject Christ, they say He made Himself equal unto God. What is it the Jew fears in the knowledge of Christ! What is it they deny even today? Perhaps the truth is what they hate! The truth that their sins are revealed, that they cannot go about doing what they will and when they will! Not only the Jew but the Gentile.
Have you experienced the hate that flows toward a believer , even within the church today! A true Christian will be subject even as Paul was! I posted on the church's facebook recently, and was brought before an elder because of where I made my post! Even tho it was clearly from the holy Spirit, it offended some, or maybe just Him.
Even as Paul was put in jail, they wanted Him silenced. You shall find this to be the truth as more and more are being deceived everyday.
There is envy, backbiting, even hate in a congregation that is not centered in the Gospel! Hold fast therefore unto the things we have been taught. Not giving into fables, but glorifying your God in heaven!
Maybe tongues ceased existing in the church? Joel's prophesy that was recalled by Peter on Pentecost covers a time period from that time all the way to "19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" So it seems that they will keep existing to the very end.
Was it for the Jews? No, the epistle to the church of Corinth was for the gentiles.
What about 1 Cor 13:8? Let's read the whole passage from 8 to 13, "8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." So it is clear that tongues will stop existing when "the perfect comes", that is when we enter Heaven.
Is it a matter of salvation? No it is not, as GiGi put it right "As for being saved, this is not based on speaking in tongues, but on faith in Jesus. Any and all who place their faith and trust in Him to save us are saved by his grace freely bestowed upon us."
So what "do I do now?" Do you want my advice? When kneeling down to pray why don't you keep asking God for His Spirit and the sign of it, speaking in tongues? In science they say that a theory can not be a Law unless it is proved experimentally. GBU
What are tongues? They are unknown languages spoken by a believer.
Do they understand what they say? No, they don't unless they have a revelation from God. 1 Cor 14:13. "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.".
Is it necessary to speak in tongues? Yes it is. Why? 1 Cor 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.".
What does apostle Paul say about us speaking in tongues? 1 Cor 14:5, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." Paul also speaks about prophesying.
Was Paul speaking in tongues? Yes, he did, 1 Cor 14:18, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:".
So what is this thing speaking in tongues? On Pentecost the sign that the apostles received the Spirit was speaking in tongues. Similarly in the Cornelious' incident. Similarly in the incident with Paul and the disciples in Ephesus. So it a sign that a believer has received the Spirit of God. But it is also a spiritual gift, 1 Cor 12:10, "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" From that verse it also shown as before that a believer does not understand what they say unless the have the gift of interpreting. The specific gift is "kinds of tongues", that is many different tongues.
Maybe as many say, love is enough (ch. 13) so those tongues are not needed anymore? 1 Cor 14:1, "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."
Just finished responding to GiGi when I noticed your responce & have to get grandson fed. Will definitly look up & read all you sent. Tho one quick Qs: so what meaning of 1Cor, 14:2? If you already answered this, I will catch it later or tomorrow. Thanks so much & God bless 'Texsis'
Wow, thank you so much.! I'm glad it was you who God led torespond. Not sure whats going on w/me lately yet its so good to know my friends (if I may) in Christ are hear for me. I'm thinking (yet in constint prayer) of going bk to Utah. Living here is really bringing me down & I refuse to go back to the old me. So thank you for helping. God bless always 'Texsis'. P.s. guess I'll have to change my user name out west ha? Or maybe just add a desert type mountain to it somehow..lol. thnx again GiGi, as always, yur a blessing
Dear S. Spencer. While I agree that Paul prior to conversion did not understand the gospel and the spiritual things of God in Christ, I disagree with you about his natural abilities. He was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities that God used after his conversion in Paul's ministry in addition to giving Paul spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of the gospel after conversion.
I don't think Paul is meaning in the verses you quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion. He was indicating that intelligence, oratory and linguistic skills, skill at reasoning were not profitable towards salvation.
God causes some people to be born with exceptional abilities that He intends to use for His kingdom once a person is converted. Paul was one such person who had extraordinary skills. I happen to have two sons that are in the "gifted" range intellectually. These exceptional intellectual abilities were not aquired as they grew. They were born this way. It was evident early in infancy in their problem solving skills and early language acquisition. There are a number of people in in my family that are such. My uncle was a mechanical genius. These abilities are given by God and are not to be denigrated, but acknowledged as good. However, no amount of 'giftedness' ensures salvation nor brings them to salvation. My uncle was a Mormon until his death. Salvation is a work of God. But once one is saved, these exceptional abilities can be well used for kingdom purposes, as Paul's were so used. We have his writings compiled to make up most of the New Testament epistles that include the majority of doctrines of the Christian faith taught and expounded upon for good reason. He was chosen for this and gifted for this work innately and with spiritual gifts after conversion. God used both ways to equip Paul for the work He had predestined for him to do.
Yes God blessed the Apostles, including Paul with wisdom of words, But until AFTER they were converted!
Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.
Listen to Paul in his own words.
1 Timothy 1:13-14.
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I DID IT IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ.
Paul said he did it "IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.
Here again.
1 Corinthians 2:4.
1 Corinthians 2:6
1 Corinthians 2:12.
1 Corinthians 2:14-15.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31.For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Paul was indeed richly blessed. He was given revelation on these things when He was in Arabia for 3 years where Christ appeared to Him and taught him these things.
Paul was a very learned man, being taught by Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin when Paul was growing up. He also was given a mind that could reason well, gain expertise in using language to explain knowledge ot others and a gift oratory finesse in addressing crowds effectively. God had blessed him with these talents and when he was converted and filled with the Holy Spirit, God used these talents along with spiritual gifts to be an effective and forceful witness to those he was given to speak concerning the gospel and Jesus Christ.
How blessed we are of God through His work in Paul.
We are asked to seek the kingdom of God first and His righteousness that comes from faith in Jesus. This is our priority as believers. We can know that the Lord will certainly lead us in our daily walk.
As for being saved, this is not based on speaking in tongues, but on faith in Jesus. Any and all who place their faith and trust in Him to save us are saved by his grace freely bestowed upon us.
As to speaking in tongues. Paul did say that they will cease ( 1 Cor. 13:8). This does not mean that tongues have necessarily ceased in this day, but perhaps so. We do not know the mind of God in this matter. he can do whatever He wills and bestow whatever gift He deems good and appropriate to any believer. But the Scripture do not declare that a person must speak in tongues to be truly saved. That doctrine is an addition to Scripture and should be discarded.
The important thing is that you have the true sign of conversion, the Holy Spirit dwelling in you Who helps you to believe and grow in faith and knowledge of God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, His Son.
Texsis, I will pray for you today.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come before You with humble and needy hearts asking for you to strengthen our faith in You, in Jesus, and in the Holy Spirit. We know that You all work together for good to to those who love You and who are called by You to believe and be saved. Refresh Texsis today in her heart, soul, mind, and body. Strengthen her faith today and bring her deep assurance of her present salvation and Your power to sustain her in faith forever. I ask You today to give Texsis discernment in these matters of b=salvation and speaking in tongues so that she will understand properly. We thank you for all the gifts You bestow upon believers for the edification of the body of Christ and teach each believer how to exercise the gift the Spirit has given to them. How gracious You are, Lord God. You have given us so much already, but we ask that You continue to bless us
Italicized words were words put in by the translators of the King James Bible. So sometimes when you translate something from one language, there is not a perfect translation, but rather a phrase. For example: "Consuegro" in Spanish translates to "your son or daughter's parent-in-law" in English. In this example they are referring to the parent-in-law, so the child's name would be italicized. It was just the way they had to translate for it to make sense or else we would have some weird verses. For example Isaiah 57:19 would say, "I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to far off, and to near, saith the LORD; and will heal him." we know the context is talking about a "him," so they added the italicized words to help it make sense.
As far as the apocrypha goes, I do not believe it is equally inspired as scripture. Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie. There are parts of the apocrypha that go against what the canonical KJV says which in turn make that part of the apocrypha false. In the translating of the KJV, the translators had many copies of the same scripture that said the same thing. Any that said something different were looked at and decided upon. If 9 out of 10 said one thing, they would ignore the 1. It makes sense as that would have been a misprinted or wrongly copied scroll of scripture. They were objective as possible as they translated. The apocrypha were all translated the same way, they were separate books so they did not compare them to the other books during translation. Later, they decided that they would not be accepted as they contradicted the other scriptures. If God cannot lie, then His word cannot lie. 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that God gave the writers what to write. meaning it was inspired. So since those books contradicted the others, they are clearly not of God.
Dear Heavenly Father, David and his family need answers to requests made in prayer to You today, especially Jessica and Adam.
This is why we come to You because you alone are God and You alone have the power to answer all prayers in the best way. help David and Kristie today with all their needs and concerns. You know what they need before they even ask, thankfully. Ashley and Jessica need Your touch on their lives today. Help them to grow in faith and love for You and Your ways. Bless Adam in his work and family. Keep their marriage strong and centered on You. Bless the grandchildren in this family, leading them in the truth that is in You, Your son, and the Holy Spirit in Whom their is always agreement, harmony, and unity. May this family also live in agreement, harmony, and unity in Your truth and in faith in You. We ask these things of You, Father, in the name of Your Son, Jesus. Amen.
I'm going to politely assume you grew up Pentecostal and that's when you were told that speaking in tongues was proof of salvation. That just isn't true and I'll show you why.
1 Corinthians 14:26-28 is just saying if you are speaking in a tongue/another language you need an interpreter. Tongues were known languages. You see, tongues is used to say that they are speaking in a language they weren't taught. Proof of this is in Genesis 10:5 where the world was split because of the building of the tower of Babel, and God gave them each a different language or tongue.
Now the New Testament understanding of tongues is that you are filled with the spirit and in turn you can speak in tongues of other languages. That was completely reserved for the first century church and here is why:
1. It was clearly not a sign of salvation ( 1 Corinthians 14:22)
a. It was for the Jews ( 1 Corinthians 14:21) "This people" is God talking about Jews.
2. It was done away with ( 1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
a. "Tongues shall cease": the meaning of "that which is perfect" means the completion of scripture. So when Revelation was finished by the apostle John, tongues ceased.
3. Proof of salvation is by our works and not by signs ( James 2:14-19)
4. Tongues was never received after baptism, but after receiving the Holy Spirit ( Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:6)
a. After receiving the Holy Ghost they would speak in tongues, it was not when they were baptized.
5. Tongues are not necessary ( 1 Corinthians 14:19)
As clearly seen, tongues were merely a sign for the Jews that was used by Spirit filled Christians which was done away with after scripture was completed; not proof of salvation. Salvation is completely through Christ and Christ alone. Romans 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:23, and John 14:6. You don't need tongues to tell you that you are saved, you need the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If you would like more elaboration, just respond back to this with your questions.
Thanks Gasman for your reply; I'm glad that my answer to you might have been a little helpful. However, your question as to when does a human (whether still in embryonic form or after release from the womb) is equipped with a soul & spirit, can't really be answered irrefutably, simply because the Word is silent on it & very likely the medical profession will never admit it. Though some Scriptures might help us, such as Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; James 2:26; and maybe others which seem to show both the importance & destination of the human spirit when the body dies. Then again, the word 'soul' is also used similarly: Matthew 10:28; Matthew 16:26; Revelation 6:9, which seems to further confuse this matter of distinction between soul & spirit. However, as man is made in his Creator's Image, I believe that he needs to be fully equipped with & reflect this fully formed creative work; hence the need for this three-fold aspect of his humanness.
Yet, as you wrote, "Our core values we know for sure but secondary issues we don't", which is what we need to emphasize & build up one another on, rather than on matters we know little or nothing about. Yet, it's always an interesting exercise to ponder even over such things. Blessings.
If you look at what is happening today, it is obvious how many people are still willingly blind to what is happening in God's world. The demonization of anyone who strays from the accepted "reality" and I can think of several examples of this travesty of Justice that God has said is imperative for a successful life, community and country. Donald Trump, Dr. Robert Malone, Dr. Peter McCullough, Dr. Kelly Victory, Dr. Drew Pinsky, Dr. Scott Atlas and so many others who deserve credit and recognition for their contributions to the truth and science of what we have just gone through. Some people will say that we need not be concerned about the truth on a global level but if we ignore what Jesus has just told us here, that there are too many people who believe that they have the right to control what the people hear and what they can say, then we have become the blind ones and are afraid to speak out against what is obvious injustices. Plato said "The price "good" people pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by EVIL men." We can see this happening today in plain sight for all to see, and the results could be tragedy on a global scale, which is already happening in some countries, and in others it has been happening since communist, or oppressive regimes have taken control over their populations with devastating and brutal consequences. Einstein said "Evil will not conquer the world, without the tacit assistance of good people who see evil and do nothing."
I quote these wise men because God commanded us to heed the words of the wise, and if their words are in sync with the words of our majestic and supreme God, then I listen and learn what I need.
Please also pray for me, I have been so idle lately and haven't been spending my time in the ways that I should. May I find things to do in my spare time that honor and glorify the Lord.
Thank you brothers and sisters,
Wishing you all a good night
And the desire of my heart is to glorify God in my life.
I am going to overlook most of what you posted her concerning me.
But I do want to point out that you here admit that you think Paul was a brilliant man. That is what I said in my original response to the lead of this thread. And when I said it, you began debating me. We both agree that our own abilities mean nothing if not brought under the authority and work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I conclude that this whole debate is needless. You did not need to go down this road with me. I don't know why you did. But as it is, I am done with this discussion with you. I will consider what you have said of me. I am certainly open for criticism, but I was not in any way was speaking from a carnal position nor praising man rather than God.
By the Spirit of truth that worked in him mighty.
Colossians 1:25-29.
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
God bless you and Good night.
I remember having this debate in the past.
You are twisting my words here.
And changing the narrative.
I didn't say Paul became intellectual when he received the Holyspirit.
I believe Paul was a brilliant man before he became a Christian.
I'm saying everything counted as worthy to him before, he now counts it as dung.
That's what he said!
And he didn't figure anything out of the things of God by his worldly, wisdom.
In fact his worldly wisdom thought that the preaching of the cross was foolishness to the point where he persecuted Christians.
This is why we glorify God because he can take murderers like Paul and King David and regenerate them to be a soldier for him.
I consider myself to be a very smart man but that didn't but sickness did.
When I was made weak, I became strong!
Before then I got in the way of myself.
That goes for all of us!
You have nothing to offer God but sacrifice.
You can be brilliant he can use you.
But he don't have to make you brilliant to do so.
God can get more Glory out of a rock than he can a rocket scientist.
God did not prepare Saul with the wisdom of the world that knew not God!!
Dear Gigi You are praising the vessel. This is a very carnal approach to scripture.
This type of thinking, to glorify Man of any sort is not of the Spirit.
It's a proud look.
Some things in scripture is written plainly.
I'm Sorry but I only can be truthful to you. I'm not partial or Passive but this is a reflection of most your discussions.
You have a exterior understanding but no debt.
I am not trying to insult you but you need to ask God to move you out of the way of yourself!
As Christians we can't claim we love one another and be Passive and partial.
And let's not lie to one another when we know constructive criticism may serve them well.
God bless you Gigi.
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 KJV
The LORD God spoke this to the serpent with Adam and Eve able to hear and believe before they were removed from the Garden.
It sound like you are in the midst of a change in your life and need direction from the Lord in choosing the best thing. I can pray for you again right now.
Dear Heavenly Father, we always come to You in prayer int he name of Jesus, because He told us to do so and said You will answer! Texsis and I are asking that You guide her in this possible move. Raise up her spirits to be feeling more gladdened on heart. It probably best for us to not make important decisions when we are feeling down, so Texsis does need you to work in her right now to be uplifted and sober minded concerning this possibility. We know that You are with us always wherever we may be living or wherever we go. So, asking that You give Texsis clear direction here. She is concerned about the temptation to return to her former life she lived while in Utah. Keep her from ever going back to that way of living, Father. Strengthen her to repel all temptations towards falling into a sin-filled lifestyle. Sanctify her today and empower her to resist whet ever tempted her before. We know how much You love us and desire for us to be holy and godly in our life. So, guide Texsis to the situation that will be most helpful to her to live this way for You. Amen.
As one reads the epistles of Paul it is very apparent that he is one God had gifted in communicating in speech and writing. He did not all of a sudden become literate and effective in these things upon conversion. He says elsewhere where he was trained by Gamaliel, so he could read and write easily.
Steven, my concern here is that you seem to be are denigrating the value of being intelligent in your replies to me. I do agree that we cannot be puffed up in our own knowledge or prideful of our talents. I was not doing that as you imply. On the flip side, we cannot be anti-intellectual in our approach to spiritual things either. Both intellectualism and anti-intellectualism are detrimental to any believer. We are to be balanced in this area and humble enough to know that we need to abide by the counsel of the Holy Spirit in all matters in our lives. But we are not to speak badly about talents God has given us. They are gifts and blessings and we should view them as such, knowing that these, along with all aspects of our persons and abilities are to be submitted to the workings of the Holy Spirit.
I don't think we really have anything to continue discussing here. I stand by what I have written and it is fine if you stand by what you have written. I think the issue is in how you interpret what I have written due to your predisposition about the topic of intellectual gifts. You see them as a negative. I see them as a positive as long as one uses them in obedience to God's will and direction.
We can leave this be for now.
Don't be scared to seek to receive more of Him.
Quoting Jema.
The thing that puzzles me is : 'promised before the world began' , where did Paul get this specific information from at that time ? I guess Paul was wise for his time , we know because we have the full Bible , old and new and we can discern the big picture . We can recognise that it was God's perpose all along , to creat a people who would love Him and want to be with Him , where and how did Paul find this out ?
The only way this could be revealed to Paul is by divine intervention by the words of Christ assisted by the Holyspirit.
Paul was sharing what was revealed to him as did the other Disciples and Apostles.
The Holyspirit is our strength today, He assist our teaching and reveals truth to the blood tipped ear.
The Ministry of the Holyspirit and our total dependency on him is paramount to the Christian fate.
You see that also played out in
1 Corinthians 3:1-23.
In this chapter the apostle directs them about the use of their spiritual gifts, preferring those that are best and fitted to do the greatest good. I. He begins with advising them of all spiritual gifts to prefer prophesying, and shows that this is much better than speaking with tongues, ver 1-5. II. He goes on to show them how unprofitable the speaking of foreign languages is, and useless to the church; it is like piping in one tone, like sounding a trumpet without any certain note, like talking gibberish; whereas gifts should be used for the good of the church, ver 6-14. III. He advises that worship should be celebrated so that the most ignorant might understand, and join in prayer and praise, and presses the advice by his own example, ver 15-20. IV. He informs them that tongues were a sign for unbelievers rather than those that believe; and represents the advantage of prophecy above speaking with tongues, from the different suggestions they would give to the mind of an unbeliever coming into their assemblies, ver 21-25.
You said you disagree with me about his natural abilities. He was a very intelligent man prior to his conversion with many skills and abilities that God used.
And you said you don't think Paul is meaning in the verses I quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion.
Re examine my post, I didn't say either of those things.
Here's all I said; Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.
Referring to this verse.
1 Timothy 1:13-14.
And IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.
Everything else I posted that you disagree with was scripture I copied pasted and posted.
The emphasis is that NO! God doesn't need anything intellectual from anyone and nor does he seek out those things.
The reason being is that we will do exactly what you are displaying now. Glory man and not God.
Listen to Paul again here in
1 Corinthians 2:1-4.
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
FOR I DETERMINED NOT TO KNOW ANY THING AMONG YOU! save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
AND MY SPEECH AND MY PREACHING WAS NOT WITH ENTICING WORDS OF MAN'S WISDOM, BUT IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:
Paul says he came to them as someone Knowing nothing!
This section of scripture Parallels with the passage you disagree with in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.
When we are born again we start out as babes in Christ and we feed on the sincere milk of the word whereby we grow, as Peter mentioned in his epistle.
The Holyspirit is the most neglected member of the Godhead amongst the Church,
That's why there is so much ignorance in the word of God.
There's many verses that disagree with you
Philippians 3:4-8.
So I disagree with your take that God blessed and prepared Paul with intellect to prepare him for ministry.
GB.
That in itself would be enough to convert anyone that Jesus is the Son of God.
Imagine, even so today the prominent Jews reject Christ, they say He made Himself equal unto God. What is it the Jew fears in the knowledge of Christ! What is it they deny even today? Perhaps the truth is what they hate! The truth that their sins are revealed, that they cannot go about doing what they will and when they will! Not only the Jew but the Gentile.
Have you experienced the hate that flows toward a believer , even within the church today! A true Christian will be subject even as Paul was! I posted on the church's facebook recently, and was brought before an elder because of where I made my post! Even tho it was clearly from the holy Spirit, it offended some, or maybe just Him.
Even as Paul was put in jail, they wanted Him silenced. You shall find this to be the truth as more and more are being deceived everyday.
There is envy, backbiting, even hate in a congregation that is not centered in the Gospel! Hold fast therefore unto the things we have been taught. Not giving into fables, but glorifying your God in heaven!
Maybe tongues ceased existing in the church? Joel's prophesy that was recalled by Peter on Pentecost covers a time period from that time all the way to "19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" So it seems that they will keep existing to the very end.
Was it for the Jews? No, the epistle to the church of Corinth was for the gentiles.
What about 1 Cor 13:8? Let's read the whole passage from 8 to 13, "8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." So it is clear that tongues will stop existing when "the perfect comes", that is when we enter Heaven.
Is it a matter of salvation? No it is not, as GiGi put it right "As for being saved, this is not based on speaking in tongues, but on faith in Jesus. Any and all who place their faith and trust in Him to save us are saved by his grace freely bestowed upon us."
So what "do I do now?" Do you want my advice? When kneeling down to pray why don't you keep asking God for His Spirit and the sign of it, speaking in tongues? In science they say that a theory can not be a Law unless it is proved experimentally. GBU
Let's put some things in order about tongues.
What are tongues? They are unknown languages spoken by a believer.
Do they understand what they say? No, they don't unless they have a revelation from God. 1 Cor 14:13. "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.".
Is it necessary to speak in tongues? Yes it is. Why? 1 Cor 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.".
What does apostle Paul say about us speaking in tongues? 1 Cor 14:5, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." Paul also speaks about prophesying.
Was Paul speaking in tongues? Yes, he did, 1 Cor 14:18, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:".
So what is this thing speaking in tongues? On Pentecost the sign that the apostles received the Spirit was speaking in tongues. Similarly in the Cornelious' incident. Similarly in the incident with Paul and the disciples in Ephesus. So it a sign that a believer has received the Spirit of God. But it is also a spiritual gift, 1 Cor 12:10, "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:" From that verse it also shown as before that a believer does not understand what they say unless the have the gift of interpreting. The specific gift is "kinds of tongues", that is many different tongues.
Maybe as many say, love is enough (ch. 13) so those tongues are not needed anymore? 1 Cor 14:1, "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."
I don't think Paul is meaning in the verses you quoted that he was illiterate, nor unskilled with language or reason prior to conversion. He was indicating that intelligence, oratory and linguistic skills, skill at reasoning were not profitable towards salvation.
God causes some people to be born with exceptional abilities that He intends to use for His kingdom once a person is converted. Paul was one such person who had extraordinary skills. I happen to have two sons that are in the "gifted" range intellectually. These exceptional intellectual abilities were not aquired as they grew. They were born this way. It was evident early in infancy in their problem solving skills and early language acquisition. There are a number of people in in my family that are such. My uncle was a mechanical genius. These abilities are given by God and are not to be denigrated, but acknowledged as good. However, no amount of 'giftedness' ensures salvation nor brings them to salvation. My uncle was a Mormon until his death. Salvation is a work of God. But once one is saved, these exceptional abilities can be well used for kingdom purposes, as Paul's were so used. We have his writings compiled to make up most of the New Testament epistles that include the majority of doctrines of the Christian faith taught and expounded upon for good reason. He was chosen for this and gifted for this work innately and with spiritual gifts after conversion. God used both ways to equip Paul for the work He had predestined for him to do.
Yes God blessed the Apostles, including Paul with wisdom of words, But until AFTER they were converted!
Paul in his "Natural mind/ Wisdom persecuted Christians and did not understand the things of God.
Listen to Paul in his own words.
1 Timothy 1:13-14.
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I DID IT IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ.
Paul said he did it "IGNORANTLY IN UNBELIEF!! That wasn't a blessing.
Here again.
1 Corinthians 2:4.
1 Corinthians 2:6
1 Corinthians 2:12.
1 Corinthians 2:14-15.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31.For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
God bless.
Paul was indeed richly blessed. He was given revelation on these things when He was in Arabia for 3 years where Christ appeared to Him and taught him these things.
Paul was a very learned man, being taught by Gamaliel, a member of the Sanhedrin when Paul was growing up. He also was given a mind that could reason well, gain expertise in using language to explain knowledge ot others and a gift oratory finesse in addressing crowds effectively. God had blessed him with these talents and when he was converted and filled with the Holy Spirit, God used these talents along with spiritual gifts to be an effective and forceful witness to those he was given to speak concerning the gospel and Jesus Christ.
How blessed we are of God through His work in Paul.
We are asked to seek the kingdom of God first and His righteousness that comes from faith in Jesus. This is our priority as believers. We can know that the Lord will certainly lead us in our daily walk.
As for being saved, this is not based on speaking in tongues, but on faith in Jesus. Any and all who place their faith and trust in Him to save us are saved by his grace freely bestowed upon us.
As to speaking in tongues. Paul did say that they will cease ( 1 Cor. 13:8). This does not mean that tongues have necessarily ceased in this day, but perhaps so. We do not know the mind of God in this matter. he can do whatever He wills and bestow whatever gift He deems good and appropriate to any believer. But the Scripture do not declare that a person must speak in tongues to be truly saved. That doctrine is an addition to Scripture and should be discarded.
The important thing is that you have the true sign of conversion, the Holy Spirit dwelling in you Who helps you to believe and grow in faith and knowledge of God, our Father, and Jesus Christ, His Son.
Texsis, I will pray for you today.
Dear Heavenly Father, we come before You with humble and needy hearts asking for you to strengthen our faith in You, in Jesus, and in the Holy Spirit. We know that You all work together for good to to those who love You and who are called by You to believe and be saved. Refresh Texsis today in her heart, soul, mind, and body. Strengthen her faith today and bring her deep assurance of her present salvation and Your power to sustain her in faith forever. I ask You today to give Texsis discernment in these matters of b=salvation and speaking in tongues so that she will understand properly. We thank you for all the gifts You bestow upon believers for the edification of the body of Christ and teach each believer how to exercise the gift the Spirit has given to them. How gracious You are, Lord God. You have given us so much already, but we ask that You continue to bless us
As far as the apocrypha goes, I do not believe it is equally inspired as scripture. Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie. There are parts of the apocrypha that go against what the canonical KJV says which in turn make that part of the apocrypha false. In the translating of the KJV, the translators had many copies of the same scripture that said the same thing. Any that said something different were looked at and decided upon. If 9 out of 10 said one thing, they would ignore the 1. It makes sense as that would have been a misprinted or wrongly copied scroll of scripture. They were objective as possible as they translated. The apocrypha were all translated the same way, they were separate books so they did not compare them to the other books during translation. Later, they decided that they would not be accepted as they contradicted the other scriptures. If God cannot lie, then His word cannot lie. 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that God gave the writers what to write. meaning it was inspired. So since those books contradicted the others, they are clearly not of God.
Dear Heavenly Father, David and his family need answers to requests made in prayer to You today, especially Jessica and Adam.
This is why we come to You because you alone are God and You alone have the power to answer all prayers in the best way. help David and Kristie today with all their needs and concerns. You know what they need before they even ask, thankfully. Ashley and Jessica need Your touch on their lives today. Help them to grow in faith and love for You and Your ways. Bless Adam in his work and family. Keep their marriage strong and centered on You. Bless the grandchildren in this family, leading them in the truth that is in You, Your son, and the Holy Spirit in Whom their is always agreement, harmony, and unity. May this family also live in agreement, harmony, and unity in Your truth and in faith in You. We ask these things of You, Father, in the name of Your Son, Jesus. Amen.
1 Corinthians 14:26-28 is just saying if you are speaking in a tongue/another language you need an interpreter. Tongues were known languages. You see, tongues is used to say that they are speaking in a language they weren't taught. Proof of this is in Genesis 10:5 where the world was split because of the building of the tower of Babel, and God gave them each a different language or tongue.
Now the New Testament understanding of tongues is that you are filled with the spirit and in turn you can speak in tongues of other languages. That was completely reserved for the first century church and here is why:
1. It was clearly not a sign of salvation ( 1 Corinthians 14:22)
a. It was for the Jews ( 1 Corinthians 14:21) "This people" is God talking about Jews.
2. It was done away with ( 1 Corinthians 13:8-10)
a. "Tongues shall cease": the meaning of "that which is perfect" means the completion of scripture. So when Revelation was finished by the apostle John, tongues ceased.
3. Proof of salvation is by our works and not by signs ( James 2:14-19)
4. Tongues was never received after baptism, but after receiving the Holy Spirit ( Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:6)
a. After receiving the Holy Ghost they would speak in tongues, it was not when they were baptized.
5. Tongues are not necessary ( 1 Corinthians 14:19)
As clearly seen, tongues were merely a sign for the Jews that was used by Spirit filled Christians which was done away with after scripture was completed; not proof of salvation. Salvation is completely through Christ and Christ alone. Romans 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:23, and John 14:6. You don't need tongues to tell you that you are saved, you need the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If you would like more elaboration, just respond back to this with your questions.
Yet, as you wrote, "Our core values we know for sure but secondary issues we don't", which is what we need to emphasize & build up one another on, rather than on matters we know little or nothing about. Yet, it's always an interesting exercise to ponder even over such things. Blessings.
I quote these wise men because God commanded us to heed the words of the wise, and if their words are in sync with the words of our majestic and supreme God, then I listen and learn what I need.
I left out the most important aspect!
Even though the Apostles walked, saw, and heard Jesus in person, they couldn't perceive the spiritual truth.
They had to wait on the Holyspirit.
John 16:13-14.
Bless you