Hi Gigi , with regard to your questions to me , can you please tell me which scripture you believe refers to Jesus going to hell , I don't use the word hades as to me , it's a Greek mythology term . If you let me know which scripture I will try to answer your question , thankyou .
In Jude the vengeance of eternal fire is not referring to the fire rained down on them in regard to this topic because that fire wasn't eternal and that wasn't their judgement of their second death but the fire that awaits them will be the fire mentioned in Jude.
The example set forth in Jude is them being ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Same as the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation.
Jude is putting his recipients in remembrance that these all is reserved to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Have you noticed this group is twice dead, plucked up by the roots already before Judgement?
You can be dead while you liveth.
1 Timothy 5:6. So the body doesn't have to die to be considered dead in the vocabulary here and it doesn't take eternal fire to keep you dead.
I'm talking about the description of that everlasting punishment (Which is future for the unbeliever)
Scripture describes it as torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth due to the unquenchable fire.
There would have to be teeth to gnash and if that's just a metaphor for a reaction to pain, if there is no body or no longer any existence it doesn't make since.
It could be no reaction to it. Torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reaction to the unquenchable fire in these particular verses.
Without contraversy GOD is Spirit and He is the beginning and the end.
as it is written in Isiah 43:11-13
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
And
As it is written in Psalm 102:27
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ the son of the living God.
Hi Gigi , so sorry , I meant , can you please send your questions to my e mail :) . Never mind , I shall go back and try to find them in a day or two when I will have more time to give a proper answer .
Yes Ronald, Ezekiel Ch 33 V 11 . I would so hate this to become a bone of contention on here , I can't pretend to believe the same things as many other people on here do , if I don't say what my beliefs are I feel as if I'm being deceitful . That's the only reason that I mention them .
No "work" qualifies any of us for salvation. Salvation by the grace of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is made by: Romans 10:9-10 (KJV) 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Yet, TRUE life-saving faith is not dead, it is not barron, it produces works not for salvation but out of love for Christ.
James 2:16-20 (KJV) 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.
Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.
On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.
The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.
Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.
You have to get it from Chick Publications just do a google search.
After years of work, the Reina Valera Gmez (RVG) Bible is finally available. A true, "Textus Receptus" Bible, the RVG has been proofread and refined by Spanish-speaking Christians in 13 countries. This revision of the RV 1909 is the first Spanish Bible that is not the product of a small committee.
Please let me know if this went to your e-mail. I understand all of what you shared in this post. It is always good to converse with you. And, please, take all the time you need to take care of the things that present themselves into your life as being more important than responding to me. I agree that neither you nor I are trying to convince others here, but simply explaining our viewpoint and how we interpret the Scriptures on a specific topic.
May you be blessed today and in the situations that need to come to resolution in your life right now. My prayers are with you, Jema.
Friend, all of this proceeds from the lack of being Taught of God by His Spirit, bringing all that would surrender unto Him into the unity of the Faith of the Son of God, that is wrought within us by His Spirit, that we may be one even as He & the Father are One. Members of His Body, for the Temple of God is Holy.
John 17:21-23
Yes; the Spirit knows us through & through & we can be sure no one can never fool God.
Gigi & all, please consider the Truth that's being reveal here according to Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Witness within your conscience that will bear witness to Truth.
For it one's faith is wrong, so will one's life & final destination be. Matt 17: 17-21 James 3:11
I believe that there many on this site as you, who are sincere & do desire to truly know & serve the Lord, but are as I once was "deceived " by the traditions & teaching of men, meaning by studying the Scripture by the arts of science, the letter by the letter. I truly believed that I was being lead by God in this effort, I was deceived & that by the Harlot Rev 17:4-6
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE WHEN HEAVEN WAS CREATED IT TOOK A TREMENDOUS LOT OF ENERGY, (and i would think iwt; and that even natural mind and or brain development is all about smooth, relaxing, quiet energy) AND iwt that angels were created at the same time as they are part of Heaven and iwt that they do not ordinarily think unless it is all good and proper thinking for an angel and if it is not; they are fallen angels and probably become as men or women; but man is a little lower than angels; and we thus we do think; and if we think like an angel, we will become angels but if we don't; if we believe enough to become one; and if we truly wanted forgivenous; we will be forgiven. I think that man was created to give angels a place to go if they wanted a change form going throughout heaven viewing all of God's creation; and of course Adam was directed to look after the animals/ecology; but he failed and we failed.
Hi Gigi , I'm dealing with some family stuff at the moment so can't answer your questions at the mo , can I ask you to please , send this your reply to me , to my e mail so I don't loose it in the machine :) it didn't go to my e mail first time . I will try to answer your questions but it may be in a few more days and I don't want to loose them , thanks . Please be assured , I'm not trying to convince anyone into my beliefs , each of us must be convinced in our own hearts by the Word of God . This site had certainly made me think carefully about one or two of my beliefs . Please , I want to answer this message but I need it in my e mail so I can find it easily again in a few days :) .
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
Hi Nstew. Your questions can be easily answered by considering the texts we have in the KJV & comparing them to the Greek (the original language of the New Testament). As you have quoted Luke 3:38 (& you could examine all the preceding verses that give this genealogy), you will notice that "the son" are in italics; unfortunately, this comment section doesn't allow for italics. Whenever we see italicized words, we understand that the Bible translators inserted those words (not found in the original), to give the verse meaning & flow for us who only read it in English. Therefore, that verse would read, "Which was of Enos, which was of Seth, which was of Adam, which was of God". We know that Enos, Seth, & Adam were humans who had wives & bore children through the fertilization of human seed; but God created Adam without the need of a human contributing seed, therefore "of God", or "the son of God" seems reasonable & should be so understood as being different from human conception. I hope this helps to clarify these verses for you.
It is late here and to me, your post is deep in understanding, and I will do my best to reply, love you brother. I am an old man and if you could explain what you agree on with GiGi would help.
The souls under the altar in ( Rev 6:9) were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Their soul and their spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit. These were slain for the Word of God.
In ( Rev 20:4) We see the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus so their soul and spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit.
These verses are speaking of only the souls of those who were killed for the Word of God or for the witness of Jesus.
All other souls would be in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
Maybe this could be a missing piece to someones puzzle.
Blessings to you GiGi.
And all who seek his Truth.
And GiGi I would really like to recommend a web site to you that has some truly amazing information about the KJB being the infallible pure Word of God. And this man proves that to be a fact in many of his videos in many different ways. Some of it really is Amazing to see.
Google (Truth is Christ) on youtube and watch some of the videos please.
Indeed David0921, this would be a prolonged study as 'soul' isn't always clearly defined from the Hebrew, 'nephesh' (which Ronald, in his detailed comment, gave 'soul's' various interpretations). If one is to assume an understanding based on how the verse is written (e.g. Genesis 2:7, as a 'living being/person'; and then Genesis 35:18, as the transition of an immaterial part of a person), then how one receives the word in the verse, will form how that Truth is believed & accepted.
As well, can the words 'soul' and 'spirit' be interchanged, at least in some instances? Or, can we assume that since both soul & spirit are immaterial, they must continue to exist, unlike the body which remains in the grave (without life & deteriorating) until the resurrection? And for those who understand it as 'the soul remaining with the body in the grave', what happens when there is no longer a body, or the body has been broken up/scattered/dissolved, where does the soul find its rest? Maybe moot questions that don't provide easy answers from either the Word or human knowledge of such things, though no doubt you have been or will be considering in your studies on this subject. GBU.
Jesus received back His full glory after He ascended to the Father. This is shown in His visit to Paul on the Damascus road. He was indescribable to Paul, only described as an extremely bright light and a voice that came out of the light.
Before incarnation, the divine Son of the Father appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Adam and Eve in the Garden. He did not appear in the fullness of the glory He possessed with the Father, in some of these appearances, even though He could have. He could show or hide some of all of HIs glory at will. And this is eternally true of Him.
Ronald, no need to be apologetic to me. I am not offended when someone responds to my posts, even if they disagree with me. What offends me is when someone is disrespectful in their response to me, when they assume things about me that they cannot know, and when they make judgments about my spiritual condition before God (which only God truly knows). You have never done any of these things to me. We always have healthy exchanges that come from hearts that love God and one another and from an attitude that gives the other the benefit of the doubt, thinking the best of one another, and being open minded enough to hear each other out and then consider what has been said and finally checking the Scriptures to see if what has been shared aligns with the Bible. I admit that there are some topics that believers will just not agree on. So, that is why I don't respond to argue to convince another, but to present my own viewpoint in a conversation that is open to all who wish to post on this forum.
I do hope that you have a great evening, that the Lord will bless you with wisdom and understanding as I desire for myself to receive, and that we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
( Ps 16:10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in (hell); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The word (hell) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, ((grave)), hell, pit.
( Luke 23:46) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The word (commend) is #3908; it means to place alongside, i.e. present, to deposit (as a trust or for protection) set before.
Father was in heaven when Jesus spoke these Words so the spirit goes to heaven at death.
Jesus' soul was not left in hell so it went to hell. The soul goes to the ((grave)).
Jesus' commended His spirit into the hands of God. The Spirit goes to God.
May I ask, How can one it be tormented if there is no awareness?
Revelation 14:9-11.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And can they have no rest day and night if they are without awareness?
To torment means to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth as mentioned in many verses?
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Has Luke created a problem here, regarding Adam, given:
i.the definition of a Son - a male descendant
ii.the need for a mother for Adam in this construct?
iii.the arguable conflict with the Genesis version of Adam's origin - Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Is this Genesis account consistent with the concept of a son?
This rendition by Luke is even more depressing as it implies that Adam being the first human, then the murderer - Cain - was God's first grandson.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
In Jude the vengeance of eternal fire is not referring to the fire rained down on them in regard to this topic because that fire wasn't eternal and that wasn't their judgement of their second death but the fire that awaits them will be the fire mentioned in Jude.
The example set forth in Jude is them being ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Same as the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation.
Jude is putting his recipients in remembrance that these all is reserved to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Have you noticed this group is twice dead, plucked up by the roots already before Judgement?
You can be dead while you liveth.
1 Timothy 5:6. So the body doesn't have to die to be considered dead in the vocabulary here and it doesn't take eternal fire to keep you dead.
I'm talking about the description of that everlasting punishment (Which is future for the unbeliever)
Scripture describes it as torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth due to the unquenchable fire.
There would have to be teeth to gnash and if that's just a metaphor for a reaction to pain, if there is no body or no longer any existence it doesn't make since.
It could be no reaction to it. Torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reaction to the unquenchable fire in these particular verses.
God bless.
Without contraversy GOD is Spirit and He is the beginning and the end.
as it is written in Isiah 43:11-13
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
And
As it is written in Psalm 102:27
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ the son of the living God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation is made by: Romans 10:9-10 (KJV) 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Yet, TRUE life-saving faith is not dead, it is not barron, it produces works not for salvation but out of love for Christ.
James 2:16-20 (KJV) 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Blessings!
I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.
Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8 Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15 Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.
On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.
The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.
Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.
God bless,
RLW
10Waiting for his Son from heaven, who came back from the dead, even Jesus, our Saviour from the wrath to come.
DNT
10and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath.
These alternate translations might be a little clearer, yet I still prefer the KJV rendition.
Blessings!
RVG/KJV - Bilingual Edition (Black)
You have to get it from Chick Publications just do a google search.
After years of work, the Reina Valera Gmez (RVG) Bible is finally available. A true, "Textus Receptus" Bible, the RVG has been proofread and refined by Spanish-speaking Christians in 13 countries. This revision of the RV 1909 is the first Spanish Bible that is not the product of a small committee.
Thanks for your reply. I will consider your thoughts on this topic, Hope your day goes well and you know the blessing of God on your life.
Please let me know if this went to your e-mail. I understand all of what you shared in this post. It is always good to converse with you. And, please, take all the time you need to take care of the things that present themselves into your life as being more important than responding to me. I agree that neither you nor I are trying to convince others here, but simply explaining our viewpoint and how we interpret the Scriptures on a specific topic.
May you be blessed today and in the situations that need to come to resolution in your life right now. My prayers are with you, Jema.
Friend, all of this proceeds from the lack of being Taught of God by His Spirit, bringing all that would surrender unto Him into the unity of the Faith of the Son of God, that is wrought within us by His Spirit, that we may be one even as He & the Father are One. Members of His Body, for the Temple of God is Holy.
John 17:21-23
Yes; the Spirit knows us through & through & we can be sure no one can never fool God.
Gigi & all, please consider the Truth that's being reveal here according to Scriptures, sound reasoning & the Witness within your conscience that will bear witness to Truth.
For it one's faith is wrong, so will one's life & final destination be. Matt 17: 17-21 James 3:11
I believe that there many on this site as you, who are sincere & do desire to truly know & serve the Lord, but are as I once was "deceived " by the traditions & teaching of men, meaning by studying the Scripture by the arts of science, the letter by the letter. I truly believed that I was being lead by God in this effort, I was deceived & that by the Harlot Rev 17:4-6
Again; all, please consider these truths
In love & truth
THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE WHEN HEAVEN WAS CREATED IT TOOK A TREMENDOUS LOT OF ENERGY, (and i would think iwt; and that even natural mind and or brain development is all about smooth, relaxing, quiet energy) AND iwt that angels were created at the same time as they are part of Heaven and iwt that they do not ordinarily think unless it is all good and proper thinking for an angel and if it is not; they are fallen angels and probably become as men or women; but man is a little lower than angels; and we thus we do think; and if we think like an angel, we will become angels but if we don't; if we believe enough to become one; and if we truly wanted forgivenous; we will be forgiven. I think that man was created to give angels a place to go if they wanted a change form going throughout heaven viewing all of God's creation; and of course Adam was directed to look after the animals/ecology; but he failed and we failed.
Part 2
This is a topic I don't believe should causes much division amongst Brothern, but it has been the hinge that holds some theology.
Everlasting punishment is hard to conceive in our finite mind, but Gods judgments are righteous.
Love you Brother ,
God bless.
Pt 1
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
It is late here and to me, your post is deep in understanding, and I will do my best to reply, love you brother. I am an old man and if you could explain what you agree on with GiGi would help.
God bless,
RLW
The souls under the altar in ( Rev 6:9) were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Their soul and their spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit. These were slain for the Word of God.
In ( Rev 20:4) We see the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
These souls were beheaded for the witness of Jesus so their soul and spirit would go to be with God, not just the spirit.
These verses are speaking of only the souls of those who were killed for the Word of God or for the witness of Jesus.
All other souls would be in the graves awaiting the resurrection.
Maybe this could be a missing piece to someones puzzle.
Blessings to you GiGi.
And all who seek his Truth.
And GiGi I would really like to recommend a web site to you that has some truly amazing information about the KJB being the infallible pure Word of God. And this man proves that to be a fact in many of his videos in many different ways. Some of it really is Amazing to see.
Google (Truth is Christ) on youtube and watch some of the videos please.
As well, can the words 'soul' and 'spirit' be interchanged, at least in some instances? Or, can we assume that since both soul & spirit are immaterial, they must continue to exist, unlike the body which remains in the grave (without life & deteriorating) until the resurrection? And for those who understand it as 'the soul remaining with the body in the grave', what happens when there is no longer a body, or the body has been broken up/scattered/dissolved, where does the soul find its rest? Maybe moot questions that don't provide easy answers from either the Word or human knowledge of such things, though no doubt you have been or will be considering in your studies on this subject. GBU.
Last part:
Jesus received back His full glory after He ascended to the Father. This is shown in His visit to Paul on the Damascus road. He was indescribable to Paul, only described as an extremely bright light and a voice that came out of the light.
Before incarnation, the divine Son of the Father appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Adam and Eve in the Garden. He did not appear in the fullness of the glory He possessed with the Father, in some of these appearances, even though He could have. He could show or hide some of all of HIs glory at will. And this is eternally true of Him.
Ronald, no need to be apologetic to me. I am not offended when someone responds to my posts, even if they disagree with me. What offends me is when someone is disrespectful in their response to me, when they assume things about me that they cannot know, and when they make judgments about my spiritual condition before God (which only God truly knows). You have never done any of these things to me. We always have healthy exchanges that come from hearts that love God and one another and from an attitude that gives the other the benefit of the doubt, thinking the best of one another, and being open minded enough to hear each other out and then consider what has been said and finally checking the Scriptures to see if what has been shared aligns with the Bible. I admit that there are some topics that believers will just not agree on. So, that is why I don't respond to argue to convince another, but to present my own viewpoint in a conversation that is open to all who wish to post on this forum.
I do hope that you have a great evening, that the Lord will bless you with wisdom and understanding as I desire for myself to receive, and that we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
Thanks for your reply and I appreciate the time you took to think about my post.
I do not think we will come to agreement on this topic, so I will certainly consider what you have posed here.
As to Hebrews 12:1, this verse about the cloud of witnesses is part of what the author was speaking about the people who had faith in chapter 11. These people were all dead, but the author says that these are who compose this cloud of witnesses, from my understanding.
I have never read anywhere in Scripture that states that people cease to exist when they die, as Jema seems to say. If there is a verse, I would love to take it under consideration.
That it is unto each man to die, (physical death) and then comes judgment (then seems to indicate immediately following death.
Those who believe in Jesus will live, even though they die. John 11:25-26).
When one dies, their body (which is made of various natural elements) will decompose back into dust).
One's soul will be with Jesus with consciousness and interaction with God ( Rev. 6:9; 20:4)
We will not be spirits, but souls. Angels are spiritual beings, we are human beings God made to exist with a spirit, soul, and body.
The redemption of our bodies will occur at the Resurrection at Jesus' second coming to be united to our soul, and spirit to become fully redeemed.
The body we had in this life is the body that will be resurrected, just as Jesus was resurrected in the same body he died in.
Our physical bodies, souls, and spirits will be reunited in this resurrection.
Our whole self, body, soul, and spirit will be glorified, transformed after our bodies are resurrected.
We will live forever with God. He will make His throne and dwelling among those who believed in the Son.
Those who did not believe in the Son will also be resurrected in the same bodies they lived in before death. Their body will be reunited with their souls and be immortal.
( Ps 16:10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in (hell); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The word (hell) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, ((grave)), hell, pit.
( Luke 23:46) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost".
The word (commend) is #3908; it means to place alongside, i.e. present, to deposit (as a trust or for protection) set before.
Father was in heaven when Jesus spoke these Words so the spirit goes to heaven at death.
Jesus' soul was not left in hell so it went to hell. The soul goes to the ((grave)).
Jesus' commended His spirit into the hands of God. The Spirit goes to God.
Separation of soul and spirit in Jesus Christ.
Blessings to you David.
And to all who seek His Truth!
May I ask, How can one it be tormented if there is no awareness?
Revelation 14:9-11.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And can they have no rest day and night if they are without awareness?
To torment means to torture: - pain toil torment toss vex.
How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth as mentioned in many verses?
I have to agree with Gigi.
God bless
Has Luke created a problem here, regarding Adam, given:
i.the definition of a Son - a male descendant
ii.the need for a mother for Adam in this construct?
iii.the arguable conflict with the Genesis version of Adam's origin - Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Is this Genesis account consistent with the concept of a son?
This rendition by Luke is even more depressing as it implies that Adam being the first human, then the murderer - Cain - was God's first grandson.
Please refer to my respond to Chris re Heb 4:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
On your statements regarding the Wrath of God and the nature of Christ's Atonement, I must disagree.
I would encourage you to carefully read Isaiah 53, the entire chapter.
And also consider these verses:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
So if God has "saved" us, it means that Christ, eternal God Himself, had taken upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that we have committed or ever will commit, and has paid the full penalty for those sins, the Wrath of God, Eternal Death, which we rightly deserve, required by the Law of God, as our substitute. And He has freed us from Bondage to Sin and Satan, and has raised us from Spiritual Death and given us Eternal Life. And will at the Last Day, complete our Salvation by giving us our Resurrected Spiritual Body ( 1 Corinthians 15) in which we will live and reign with Christ as joint inheritors with Christ of the New Heavens and New Earth for ever more.
Praise God for so great Salvation!