Well I do feel that I owe to present my opinion scripturally. I have done it historically so far. About debating, it is true that we all like debating sometimes in order to "push" our beliefs to others and we all occasionally get passionate. So don't worry. Also do not feel obliged to respond.
But not today, I have no free time. Probably tomorrow. Have a blessed day. GBU
Hey Momsage, the truth is, they are all about the "commandments" until it comes to the 4th one. Sure, all the others are applicable, well.. of course, except this 4th one. Truth is, they don't have the spiritual "guts" to obey that one. Too scared they gonna look "funny".. or weird. They would rather throw out a bunch of scriptures out of context to hide behind; Rather than prayerfully try it out of obedience. Spiritual "whimps".. stay away from the "straight" gate.
Hi GiGi: What a mess you must be dealing with. It is a blessing the insurance will cover most of it and your husband is qualified to help with them. My prayers are with for a quick cleanup and settlement of this issue. Thank you for your comment . Seeing a post form you is like having a good friend knock on your door for a cup of coffee and chat, especially with homemade cinnamon rolls. Yum. The only reason I worry about my discussions as being to passionate is that I will offend someone but I hope I haven't. I state my view in a straightforward way so I may come across to abrupt sometimes. You are an uplifting part of this forum. God Bless :)
I know I wasn't going to comment any more on the Sabbath, so please forgive me, however, yes the laws of Moses were done away with because the Jews muddied them up so bad with their additions that they were no good anymore, but NOT the 10 Commandments (not laws) of God. These are two very different things. Worship is not in the commandment so worshipping on Sunday doesn't technically apply but to me it is a given to worship God and on the same day He set aside for us to cease all labor and REST. Denying the 4th commandment and by working on that day is disobeying God's COMMANDMENT. When the scriptures say God's commandments are not burdensome He meant it but man messed it up by changing it to Sunday because the world did, so today it is burdensome to worship and rest on Saturday. But man made it so, not God. If we had remembered to keep this commandment as God told us to, the church would not have followed the world and changed it to Sunday and then made excuses, especially by wrong interpretation of the scriptures, to do it their way. Chris and I have had long discussions about this and I know most believers think the Early Church changed it to Sunday but there is no verse that specifically says it was changed. I have provided much historical and scriptural truths to support that the Church did rest 0n the Sabbath from about 35-100AD, so you can find them if you want and see what is there. God Bless :)
We love each other here on this forum and we learn as we go along in our life in Christ how to discuss differences through the working of the Holy Spirit. I love a good, hearty discussion as much as the next person, and also think that some topics are understood more deeply when serious discussions take place. So, I am thankful for your contribution to this discussion on how e are to view the Sabbath commandment post cross and resurrection.
Have a good day. We have been out and about today looking for things we need to replace now due to the water damage we had from a plumbing leak last week. Glad the insurance company will be covering much of the damage (save our deductible and us being responsible for the pipe repair). This is the first kind of water damage incident we have had to face and also dealing with an insurance claim, although my husband was on the other side of claims as a job being a claims adjuster for his career.
I ask for prayers that everything will go smoothly in all ways.
A question we should ask ourselves; Do we study it with a confirmation bias? I know I have in the past and I must fight it every time I open the Bible. It is part of our subconscious mind; confirmation bias is when we study the Bible, we look for verses to confirm our existing beliefs, without even knowing it we ignore any Bible verses that conflict with what we believe.
Our existing beliefs are deeply entrenched in our subconscious mind, and our subconscious mind blocks the true meaning unless we accept that we may be wrong and in prayer make a sincere effort to come to the Scriptures with an open mind as we know nothing, praying for the truth with open ears, that we may hear.
Like stories we have heard from childhood, only two, a male and a female of each animal and bird went into the ark with Noah, or the wise men went to the manger when Jesus was a baby. Is that the truth? We must not automatically defend our beliefs without ever really questioning them, if not, the truth becomes harder to find.
1 John 4:1, we are told to test the spirits and many other Scriptures tell us to be aware of false prophets, and false teachers, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. It is easy to start with a doctrine, or something we have been taught, or what we believe to find Scripture that will confirm it, but is that the true meaning that God inspired the writer to write?
I read and study the KJV, but we must be honest it is a translation and if something feels wrong in our heart, we must not ignore it. Whatever version we have we must trust it is the word of God and His Spirit will give us the understanding of it and shine light on the truth, not from our mind.
We can study in two ways, exegesis, considering the context, and God's intent, and open to the truth given to us through the Holy Spirit, or eisegesis by reading into it with one's own presuppositions, ideas, or the traditions of man.
Hi Oseas. I do want you to know I have ended my discussion with Chris, on the Sabbath,.we have come to an impass. I would, however answer your question after a time of study because I don't see what it has to do with the Sabbath. God Bless :)
Hi Giannis. As I just told Chris this discussion has come to an impass. I believe my problem is I like "debating" to tell what I believe with historical and scriptural proof with the responding debater using the same methods to refute what l just presented tat for tat bascially. But this is not what my discussion with Chris has been. I was debating he was discussion; apples and oranges. But he was doing what this forum calls for so I'm at fault. So I will not reply to discussions on the Sabbath anymore as it is getting us nowhere. I'll try in further posting on this forum to stick to discussions. God Bless :)
Hi Chris: It seems you and I have come to an impass. I will make one more comment and, of course, you can respond but for me I won't discuss the Sabbath anymore. I appreciate your having this discussion with me but, honestly, I feel it was a bit one-sided. I offered a lot of historical backup for proof of what I believe and scriptures too, but you didn't refute any of it with your own historical quotes or scriptures. You just basically kept repeating what you believe, like calling the commandments of God laws of God which include the other 9 so when Jesus broke us away from God's laws that must include the other 9. GiGi did help me understand the commandment doesn't say anything about the day to worship. To me that was just a given; to give God our full attention by fellowshipping with believers and focusing on the word of God on the same day we rested. That can be done on any day but the important part of the commandment is to cease from labor on Saturday (any day in your opinion) which the church no longer honors with the excuse God changed His mind and used His Son to abolish the 4th commandment for some reason.
Asking for extra strong protection, strength, peace, love, joy, encouragement, wisdom, deliverance, healing, salvation (those not saved) for us and all in need. Also asking for a door to open to be able to change my job (night shift) if it is God's will.
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our GOD in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (These sealed 144K of each tribe of Israel are the remnant saved of the condemnation and eternal perdition- Luke 3:7 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, among countless other biblical references).
On the other hand:
-verses 9-12 combined with Revelation 19:6-10
9 I beheld, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped GOD,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our GOD for ever and ever. Amen.
Momsage, the question is:
Who are the great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stand before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands? And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
I said a prayer for your family restoration in 2024. We are in agreement with GOD the Father, GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit that this marriage be restored and continue to flourish and thrive with GOD"s grace. We declare restoration and a long life of family togetherness.
Thanks for your reply Momsage. I couldn't detect the Church ever coming together to worship the LORD on the Sabbath from the references you gave. So it seems that neither we nor yourself can scripturally prove that the Church met on either the Sabbath or the Sunday (what is otherwise called the Lord's Day: Revelation 1:10). Therefore, we cannot appeal to the Word to resolve the matter, but to what was understood & practised in the years that followed the closing of the Scriptures. I won't go into that as both Giannis & GiGi have given sufficient evidence from the writings of those post-apostolic Church saints that the Church met together on the Lord's Day (Sunday), well before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence. And if we, as the Church, choose to worship on a Sunday, do so because of what we learn from early Church practise and not from some papal or council edict.
So, the question remains: if this be the case, why did the Church reject the Sabbath (also being the day set aside by the Jews to attend the synagogue), to meet together to break bread & worship the Lord on the first day of the week? Could it be that the Church (founded on apostolic teaching) no longer identified with the Law given by God to Israel, from which no salvation or release from sin's grip could be found, but rather attended to the Law given by the Spirit of God, which now gave both understanding & power to serve God acceptably? Maybe, what the Apostle Paul believed & preached, was also adhered to by the Church: in Romans 7:4-6 Paul stated, 'we are dead to the Law by the Body of Christ - now being delivered from the Law in which we remained dead, but now serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter'. And this was written to remind Jewish believers that they (not Gentiles) were once under the (whole) Law, but now freed from its intended purpose & punishment as its goal, to serve God by the Spirit covered by Christ's Blood, which the Law could never do.
Please pray for my son Robert to be healed on what he is struggling with and protection from evil Please and for Holy Spirit strength and for him to keep Growing in our Lord Jesus Christ and keep being kind caring respectful humble and be able to be around his brother and sister and their family again and not believe lie the enemy tells him and rightly discern the word of God a job that he will be around Godly people who serve the Lord Jesus Christ and will help him Grow strong in Jesus christ and a job that will glorify God our Heavenly Father . Robert to sleep in peace knowing God is protecting him always thank you soo much
Hi GiGi: Yes I am passionate about this topic maybe a little more then I should be but when I see God's church disobeying His commandment it is so sad to me. You are right the commandment doesn't specifically say to worship on the sabbath. I guess to me that is a given because it's the day He sanctified to Himself. I just can't let the idea that the early church, during the Apostolic period 35 to 100 AD, abandoned the 4th commandment right after Jesus' death and started worshiping on Sunday. I do have complete faith in God that His church will be in complete unity when He returns so maybe by us discussing these things it can help us to reach that unity, although it may not look like it now. LOL Thank for replying to me. You always make me feel good. God Bless ;)
I will pray for you before I retire to bed tonight. I so can relate to how you are feeling. I pray that your throat will stay clear and stop swelling as that is a serious symptom. Try to drink lots of plain water, maybe with a touch of honey. Ginger tea can be
No matter what church group we affiliate with there is always the possibility of wrong teaching and practice to creep in and be widely accepted. I have seen it happen many times in my lifetime in many different church groups.
The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church became more and more institutionalized and hierarchical over the years and this did not prevent them from falling into error and corruption. ALL church groups can learn a lesson from what happened to the universal church over the centuries and be very careful about what they teach from the pulpit, what is taught in Sunday School, in home Bible Studies, and in personal study and practicing one's faith daily.
You have done well in this conversation with Momsage. It is up to her to do with the information she found and we supplied according to how the Spirit leads her.
No one here is asking you to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. You are free to use Saturday as your day of worship.
Giannis has given you some historical information that indicates that it was customary in the early decades of the church at the time of the apostles and shortly after to come together on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship.
If one wishes to follow the example of the early church and attend church services on Sunday that is fine. The Scriptures do not tell us what day to meet together for worship.
The Sabbath commandment was for a time of rest from work, not a call to come together to worship. At the time of the giving of the command on Sinai there were no synagogues (these came into being during the Babylonian exile along with rabbis and Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law). It was also in the Babylonian exile that all the Sabbath additions to the original command were instituted. So, in the time of Jesus, going to the synagogue on Saturday was considered the norm as long as one did not have to travel more that these "requirements" allowed. (This restriction on travel was one reason that there were so many synagogues and teachers). The people were only required to go to the temple a few times per year.
I think that in this conversation you have presented your point of view well and others such as Giannis and I have also presented our views well. It may be best to leave it at that and let others consider both views and decide according to their conscience as the Holy Spirit leads them.
I do understand that your are very passionate about this topic. We should be serious about our worship. Since there is not a biblical verse that tells us what day we HAVE to attend worship services, I think that we can worship any and every day of the week, either singularly or corporately, according to the lead of the Holy Spirit.
I love your zeal, Momsage. We all have topics that mean a great deal to us.
Hi Momsage. You asked for "biblical proof that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week". The verses already given, I admit, don't specifically show that day to be Sunday. But was wondering, are there any verses that show the the early Church worshiped on the Sabbath? I know that the Apostle Paul frequently went to the synagogue on the Sabbath ( Acts 13:14, Acts 18:4), but clearly that wasn't to celebrate the day with the Church, but to minister to the Jews. I just can't think of an occasion where it stated that the Church met on the Sabbath for worship, in spite of 'Jeremy Taylor' stating that they did (without Scriptural references given).
Hi Cheryl1655. What you have asked does seem confusing to most casual readers of the Bible. But there are two possible explanations so as to understand a little better about Lot's daughters.
a. It is possible that Lot had four daughters: two were still living at home with their parents ( Genesis 19:12, when the angels asked Lot if he had any other 'family' besides those they could see there with him; and Genesis 19:15, the angels urged Lot to quickly bring out his wife & his two daughters WHICH ARE HERE, i.e. present in the house with them). So, maybe from these verses we can assume that Lot had four daughters: two virgins living with him & two living with their husbands, & these could have perished with their husbands because of their refusal to leave Sodom.
b. The other possibility is that Lot only had two daughters, but they were not married to their (future) husbands, but were betrothed to them. As you probably know, that in those days & in that culture, when two people were bethrothed (engaged) to each other, they were considered as a married couple, only because of the binding commitment that such an engagement required, & not by actually living & sleeping together. We can remember the account of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 1:18,19) where Joseph's espousal to Mary was considered as a marriage, though they didn't live together, yet, Joseph was still intending to "put away" (divorce) Mary for her supposed infidelity. But the Angel of the Lord intervened quick smart to stop him acting foolishly.
You can examine these options before you & decide for yourself. My leaning is to the latter, of Job having only two daughters, betrothed to men, but choosing to leave them in preference to what the Angel had warned them concerning God's Wrath over the city.
Re.12:10-17KJV 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven (heaven?Eph.1:3.Take a look), Now is come salvation, and strength,and the Kingdom of our GOD,and the power of His Christ:for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their TESTIMONY;and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice,ye heavens(heavenly places in Christ JESUS-i.e. the celestial environments of the Old and New Testaments),and ye that dwell in them-the believers-.Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Israel)and of the sea!(sea/waters=peoples,and NATIONS,and multitudes of all tongues-Gentile peoples-which were deceived by that old serpent that deceives the whole world)for the Devil is come down unto you,having great wrath,because he knows that he has but a short time.13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth(from the heaven- Isaiah 14:12-15),he persecuted the woman...
14And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle(the Old Testament and New Testament-two witnesses of GOD- Revelation 11:3-4.Take a kook),that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,where she is nourished(by the Old and New Testaments-the Word of GOD,the Scriptures)for a time,and times, and half a time,from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman(be careful,don't drink of that water),that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth(144K of Israel- Revelation 7:1-10 and 14:1-5.Take a look)helped the woman(the Lord's Church- John 10:15-16),and the earth opened her mouth,and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. -The testimony of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy-Re.19:10 combined with Ro.8:9-11.GET READY
Please show biblical proof that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week. The two verses that are usually stated are the only ones I've seen used for this belief but consider a different interpretation; 1 Corinthians 16:2 This verse only states that Paul asked the church members to collect donations on the first day of the week for when he came again. Nothing is said that it was done at church services. Roman 14:5 Does your church only meet on Sunday to fellowship and hear preaching and teaching? This verse is just speaking of believers gathering on A Sunday to fellowship and listen to Paul preach because he had to leave the next day. It doesn't interpret as abolishing their regular worshiping on the Sabbath.
The Holy Catholic Church was involved in changing the sabbath to Sunday, these historical quotes, among others, proves it.
"The PRIMITIVE (my emphasis) Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews before the Christians for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read and this continued till the time of the Laodician Council." The whole Works of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p416
"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright,
CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo (The Holy Catholic Church was involved with Laodicean Council , taking serious steps to put a stop to Christians still worshipping on the sabbath hundred of years after Christ.)
Please use scripture and historical proof for your comments. GOD COMMANDED us to rest and worship Him on one particular day of the week in one particular way. As for me I choose to obey God not man.
We need to understand that we can criticize someone without condemning them.
As I understand it, to "condemn" someone means to pronounce that they are lost and going to hell.
But if someone says to you, "I think you're wrong on this issue," They have not condemned you.
We live in a culture where criticism is not popular. If you criticize anyone, you're labeled judgmental, hypocritical, and pharisaical.
In the Christian community we need to be criticized or corrected, "when we are doing something wrong, when we are neglecting some good thing we should be doing. when we are teaching something that is false. ect ect..
Scripture should always be the standard by which we criticize/reprove and make sure you are the right person to do the criticizing.
When We Criticize, We Need to do it with Love and probably in person, "Not a letter"
As it pertains to "condemning," there is certainly a time when we should express to people that they are in a lost condition. If someone is not "in Christ,"
The bible certainly can be used in this area!
There is lots of Scripture on the behavior of a true believer.
" Romans 6:1-4 comes to mind.
We have to tell them the truth!
He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue. Proverbs 28:23).
I would rather display my love by telling them the truth and risk losing them as a friend than to tell them nothing and risk seeing them continue in a Sin that can send them to Hell.
Perhaps you can ease them into a conversation on Salvation and ask them are they saved, and their answer will give you a starting point.
Don't forget to ask them, "By what means"
PS. A unsaved person needs to know the work of Christ on the cross.
A saved person, "or one that profess to be saved needs to understand the work of the Holyspirit.
Well I do feel that I owe to present my opinion scripturally. I have done it historically so far. About debating, it is true that we all like debating sometimes in order to "push" our beliefs to others and we all occasionally get passionate. So don't worry. Also do not feel obliged to respond.
But not today, I have no free time. Probably tomorrow. Have a blessed day. GBU
We love each other here on this forum and we learn as we go along in our life in Christ how to discuss differences through the working of the Holy Spirit. I love a good, hearty discussion as much as the next person, and also think that some topics are understood more deeply when serious discussions take place. So, I am thankful for your contribution to this discussion on how e are to view the Sabbath commandment post cross and resurrection.
Have a good day. We have been out and about today looking for things we need to replace now due to the water damage we had from a plumbing leak last week. Glad the insurance company will be covering much of the damage (save our deductible and us being responsible for the pipe repair). This is the first kind of water damage incident we have had to face and also dealing with an insurance claim, although my husband was on the other side of claims as a job being a claims adjuster for his career.
I ask for prayers that everything will go smoothly in all ways.
A question we should ask ourselves; Do we study it with a confirmation bias? I know I have in the past and I must fight it every time I open the Bible. It is part of our subconscious mind; confirmation bias is when we study the Bible, we look for verses to confirm our existing beliefs, without even knowing it we ignore any Bible verses that conflict with what we believe.
Our existing beliefs are deeply entrenched in our subconscious mind, and our subconscious mind blocks the true meaning unless we accept that we may be wrong and in prayer make a sincere effort to come to the Scriptures with an open mind as we know nothing, praying for the truth with open ears, that we may hear.
Like stories we have heard from childhood, only two, a male and a female of each animal and bird went into the ark with Noah, or the wise men went to the manger when Jesus was a baby. Is that the truth? We must not automatically defend our beliefs without ever really questioning them, if not, the truth becomes harder to find.
1 John 4:1, we are told to test the spirits and many other Scriptures tell us to be aware of false prophets, and false teachers, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15. It is easy to start with a doctrine, or something we have been taught, or what we believe to find Scripture that will confirm it, but is that the true meaning that God inspired the writer to write?
I read and study the KJV, but we must be honest it is a translation and if something feels wrong in our heart, we must not ignore it. Whatever version we have we must trust it is the word of God and His Spirit will give us the understanding of it and shine light on the truth, not from our mind.
We can study in two ways, exegesis, considering the context, and God's intent, and open to the truth given to us through the Holy Spirit, or eisegesis by reading into it with one's own presuppositions, ideas, or the traditions of man.
Just a thought for the new year. Love you guys.
God bless,
RLW
God Bless :)
Pray for Him. In The Name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Revelation 7:1-4 AND 9-12, says:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our GOD in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (These sealed 144K of each tribe of Israel are the remnant saved of the condemnation and eternal perdition- Luke 3:7 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, among countless other biblical references).
On the other hand:
-verses 9-12 combined with Revelation 19:6-10
9 I beheld, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped GOD,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our GOD for ever and ever. Amen.
Momsage, the question is:
Who are the great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stand before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands? And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Yes, who are them, Momsage?
I said a prayer for your family restoration in 2024. We are in agreement with GOD the Father, GOD the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit that this marriage be restored and continue to flourish and thrive with GOD"s grace. We declare restoration and a long life of family togetherness.
So, the question remains: if this be the case, why did the Church reject the Sabbath (also being the day set aside by the Jews to attend the synagogue), to meet together to break bread & worship the Lord on the first day of the week? Could it be that the Church (founded on apostolic teaching) no longer identified with the Law given by God to Israel, from which no salvation or release from sin's grip could be found, but rather attended to the Law given by the Spirit of God, which now gave both understanding & power to serve God acceptably? Maybe, what the Apostle Paul believed & preached, was also adhered to by the Church: in Romans 7:4-6 Paul stated, 'we are dead to the Law by the Body of Christ - now being delivered from the Law in which we remained dead, but now serve God in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter'. And this was written to remind Jewish believers that they (not Gentiles) were once under the (whole) Law, but now freed from its intended purpose & punishment as its goal, to serve God by the Spirit covered by Christ's Blood, which the Law could never do.
soothing.
No matter what church group we affiliate with there is always the possibility of wrong teaching and practice to creep in and be widely accepted. I have seen it happen many times in my lifetime in many different church groups.
The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church became more and more institutionalized and hierarchical over the years and this did not prevent them from falling into error and corruption. ALL church groups can learn a lesson from what happened to the universal church over the centuries and be very careful about what they teach from the pulpit, what is taught in Sunday School, in home Bible Studies, and in personal study and practicing one's faith daily.
You have done well in this conversation with Momsage. It is up to her to do with the information she found and we supplied according to how the Spirit leads her.
Acts 16:13, Acts 17:2 Acts 18:4
"Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday they accept the authority of the Spokesperson, the Pope." ( Our Sunday Visitor February 5, 1950.)
No one here is asking you to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. You are free to use Saturday as your day of worship.
Giannis has given you some historical information that indicates that it was customary in the early decades of the church at the time of the apostles and shortly after to come together on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship.
If one wishes to follow the example of the early church and attend church services on Sunday that is fine. The Scriptures do not tell us what day to meet together for worship.
The Sabbath commandment was for a time of rest from work, not a call to come together to worship. At the time of the giving of the command on Sinai there were no synagogues (these came into being during the Babylonian exile along with rabbis and Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law). It was also in the Babylonian exile that all the Sabbath additions to the original command were instituted. So, in the time of Jesus, going to the synagogue on Saturday was considered the norm as long as one did not have to travel more that these "requirements" allowed. (This restriction on travel was one reason that there were so many synagogues and teachers). The people were only required to go to the temple a few times per year.
I think that in this conversation you have presented your point of view well and others such as Giannis and I have also presented our views well. It may be best to leave it at that and let others consider both views and decide according to their conscience as the Holy Spirit leads them.
I do understand that your are very passionate about this topic. We should be serious about our worship. Since there is not a biblical verse that tells us what day we HAVE to attend worship services, I think that we can worship any and every day of the week, either singularly or corporately, according to the lead of the Holy Spirit.
I love your zeal, Momsage. We all have topics that mean a great deal to us.
a. It is possible that Lot had four daughters: two were still living at home with their parents ( Genesis 19:12, when the angels asked Lot if he had any other 'family' besides those they could see there with him; and Genesis 19:15, the angels urged Lot to quickly bring out his wife & his two daughters WHICH ARE HERE, i.e. present in the house with them). So, maybe from these verses we can assume that Lot had four daughters: two virgins living with him & two living with their husbands, & these could have perished with their husbands because of their refusal to leave Sodom.
b. The other possibility is that Lot only had two daughters, but they were not married to their (future) husbands, but were betrothed to them. As you probably know, that in those days & in that culture, when two people were bethrothed (engaged) to each other, they were considered as a married couple, only because of the binding commitment that such an engagement required, & not by actually living & sleeping together. We can remember the account of Joseph & Mary ( Matthew 1:18,19) where Joseph's espousal to Mary was considered as a marriage, though they didn't live together, yet, Joseph was still intending to "put away" (divorce) Mary for her supposed infidelity. But the Angel of the Lord intervened quick smart to stop him acting foolishly.
You can examine these options before you & decide for yourself. My leaning is to the latter, of Job having only two daughters, betrothed to men, but choosing to leave them in preference to what the Angel had warned them concerning God's Wrath over the city.
as to what the devil's next step is in creating this show? I'm sure most of you have seen the ads on TikTok promoting the app
Hallow by, guess who, Jonathan Roumie. This app promotes Catholicism with praying the rosary, for one thing, as being a
complete worship of Mary. Blatant idolatry. Jonathan Roumie is now a famous man with many ardent followers and his intention
is to convert as many poor souls to this terrible religion as he can. I knew the TV show was just the beginning of something like
this when found out he was a devote Catholic. One viewer commented he loved listening to him because he had such a
soothing, peaceful voice. Do you suppose the devil can use a soothing, peaceful voice to fool souls? I pity Jonathan Roumie and
am praying earnestly that he will find true salvation, leave this church and denounce it. Only God knows.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their TESTIMONY;and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice,ye heavens(heavenly places in Christ JESUS-i.e. the celestial environments of the Old and New Testaments),and ye that dwell in them-the believers-.Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Israel)and of the sea!(sea/waters=peoples,and NATIONS,and multitudes of all tongues-Gentile peoples-which were deceived by that old serpent that deceives the whole world)for the Devil is come down unto you,having great wrath,because he knows that he has but a short time.13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth(from the heaven- Isaiah 14:12-15),he persecuted the woman...
14And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle(the Old Testament and New Testament-two witnesses of GOD- Revelation 11:3-4.Take a kook),that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,where she is nourished(by the Old and New Testaments-the Word of GOD,the Scriptures)for a time,and times, and half a time,from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman(be careful,don't drink of that water),that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth(144K of Israel- Revelation 7:1-10 and 14:1-5.Take a look)helped the woman(the Lord's Church- John 10:15-16),and the earth opened her mouth,and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. -The testimony of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy-Re.19:10 combined with Ro.8:9-11.GET READY
The Holy Catholic Church was involved in changing the sabbath to Sunday, these historical quotes, among others, proves it.
"The PRIMITIVE (my emphasis) Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews before the Christians for a long time together, did keep their convocations upon the Sabbath in which some portions of the law were read and this continued till the time of the Laodician Council." The whole Works of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX p416
"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright,
CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo (The Holy Catholic Church was involved with Laodicean Council , taking serious steps to put a stop to Christians still worshipping on the sabbath hundred of years after Christ.)
Please use scripture and historical proof for your comments. GOD COMMANDED us to rest and worship Him on one particular day of the week in one particular way. As for me I choose to obey God not man.
God Bless :)
We need to understand that we can criticize someone without condemning them.
As I understand it, to "condemn" someone means to pronounce that they are lost and going to hell.
But if someone says to you, "I think you're wrong on this issue," They have not condemned you.
We live in a culture where criticism is not popular. If you criticize anyone, you're labeled judgmental, hypocritical, and pharisaical.
In the Christian community we need to be criticized or corrected, "when we are doing something wrong, when we are neglecting some good thing we should be doing. when we are teaching something that is false. ect ect..
Scripture should always be the standard by which we criticize/reprove and make sure you are the right person to do the criticizing.
When We Criticize, We Need to do it with Love and probably in person, "Not a letter"
As it pertains to "condemning," there is certainly a time when we should express to people that they are in a lost condition. If someone is not "in Christ,"
The bible certainly can be used in this area!
There is lots of Scripture on the behavior of a true believer.
" Romans 6:1-4 comes to mind.
We have to tell them the truth!
He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue. Proverbs 28:23).
I would rather display my love by telling them the truth and risk losing them as a friend than to tell them nothing and risk seeing them continue in a Sin that can send them to Hell.
Perhaps you can ease them into a conversation on Salvation and ask them are they saved, and their answer will give you a starting point.
Don't forget to ask them, "By what means"
PS. A unsaved person needs to know the work of Christ on the cross.
A saved person, "or one that profess to be saved needs to understand the work of the Holyspirit.
Good luck and God bless.