I do not think Giannis, myself, or anyone else on this forum was being aggressive to Momsage nor where we trying to promote our selves, our scholarship, or our superiority. If that is what you get from our postings, I must say that you are reading more into what has been presented than what we said or meant. Also, speaking for myself, I like you, considering you a wonderful sister in Christ that God has blessed me with. I am sure others here think the same. So be assured that you are loved and cherished on this forum.
As for me, I try to read almost all of what is posted on this forum because I respect everyone's ideas, that they took the time to post, and that they are brethren. I read most posts because I can learn from others, be made to ponder a topic and then explore it more deeply myself, add my view to the discussion. I can answer a question and I can know prayer requests so I can have the privilege to pray for the need expressed. Yet, each person is free to decide how they participate on this forum and I respect that as well.
So, may you have peace today. May you be encouraged and know that you are appreciated here and loved for who you are in Christ as we all should be. It saddens me to know that you think that some of us do not like you. I hope that God will assure you of your love and acceptance here, especially by those of us who post here. Have a blessed day.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.
We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.
My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
GOD to shine HIS face gloriously on all who love and look forward to HIS coming!
Acts 20:7 makes clear that gathering of the saints occurred on the first day of the week to bolster the collection made according to 1 Corinthians 16:2. The prescident is really from the fact that Christ fulfilled Pentacost which was the 8th day of the week (or Sunday) in the O.T. times was celebrated 50 days after the Passover.
Since we are not to have certain days to be held above others as Romans 14:5-6 indicates; we have no right to dictate either Saturday or Sunday for worship as I see it. Again; the Old Testament command was for Israel specifically as anyone in the land who disrespected the Sabbath was severely punished (see Deuteronomy 5:14). Other laws in the Old Testament such as marriage were clearly upheld even with pagan societies (as we see with the case of John the Baptist when he was imprisoned for contesting with the marriage status of a secular leader married to his brother's wife). Murder was evident with Cain well before the law came out. The fact is that Saturday worship can no longer be as it was without the sacrifices and other ordinances of the O.T. times which have been gone since the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Christ is our Passover now ( 1 Corinthians 5:7) and the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath ( Matthew 12:8).
We also need to consider what Paul stated to those who were coming from pagan societies. He said in Acts 15:29 to avoid eating blood; or strangled animals (often done in pagan rituals) as well as sexual immorality. If Saturday worship was required you would expect something would be mentioned as all other things in the Commandments which are throughout the New Testament in the Gospels and Epistles.
There are further concerns with Adventist doctrines and Ellen White which I am not going to get into detail here; but this often is an added reason for this and other issues of contention. I agree that the edict of Milan enforcing Sunday worship is wrong also.
Matthew Ch 18 V 1-7 , Mark Ch 9 V 33-42 . Do we believe that Jesus is speaking about physical children ? Or about our brothers and sisters in Christ ? Thy Kingdom Come .
I am glad to hear you had a great time over the holidays, I hope you were able to rest your heels of travel. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that the reformation begins, and the Holy Spirit inspires true worship. Worship is our response to what the Spirit reveals to us about God.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We do this with our renewed minds led by the Spirit not with our wisdom and emotions, they can be deceived. Being deceived is to be easily caught up or carried away or taken out of the way, the favorite tool of Satan, like prey taken in the mouth of a lion.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: If we are deceived, we are devoured. We must be vigilant daily to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, Jesus. Daily, as the Apostles did in the beginning, preaching the Gospel of Jesus every day, Acts 2:46-47Acts 5:42Acts 16:5.
May I also say that , when a group of people gang up on a person who they perceive ( rightly or wrongly ) to be weaker than them , that is the very definition of bullying .
I understand your point totally . I believe that we Christians should cherish and nourish each other , we can't do that if we have pushed someone away by using invective and aggressive (by your own admission ) language . We should never belittle each other or make each other feel inferior , either deliberately or accidentally . Some times people disappear from this site without any good bye , do we ever wonder why ? Do we ever consider that we , and I include myself , may have pushed some one away ? We will all have to answer to our Lord for the way we speak to each other , that's a very scary thought to me , I think it should be so to all of us .
I thought that I should address several things here. First of all, if we are to look at the Seventh Day Adventists and their teachings of Ellen White it is clear that there are spurious elements there; from her supposedly communicating with her late husband; to the predictions about the Lord's return. This is something I have just begun to investigate; but when you hear how commonplace demonic attacks are in their own pamphlets describing experiences that are always inexorably involved with this lady's teachings as being some sort of proposed solution you know there is a problem.
I wanted to differentiate between that and those such as Messianic Jews who may choose to worship on Saurdays. I have attended meetings in several of these type settings when I lived in Pittsburgh; and have seen how there is a fairly good acceptance of other believers such as myself who worship on Sundays. Nonetheless; there are reminders with events not to serve food that isn't considered Kosher which I suppose is ok not to offend those of the Jewish faith we wish to bring to Christ by not allowing our liberties to dissuade men. In regard to Saturday sabbath; it is clear that the PENALTY is for those who are in Israel who are cut off from God that disobey the Sabbath. In that regard it appears to be uniquely there for the Israelites only; while other laws such as divorce count for all men (as we see from examples with pagans who were told; for instance not to touch Abraham and Issac's wife when they were passed off as sisters; and John the Baptist being martyred for a pagan marrying his brothers wife). We could say the same of course for murder which is something found originally with Cain well before the law was delivered on Sinai.
God may well establish again some of this during the Millennial reign at least with the Temple which will keep people ceremonially clean around glorified saints and Christ after He returns as well as be a reminder of Christ's sacrifice for sin.
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the Judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the Judgment of GOD?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of GOD leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of GOD;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth (GOD IS TRUTH), but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
12For as many as have sinned without law (THE GENTILES) shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as have sinned in the LAW shall be JUDGED by the LAW;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before GOD,but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles(believers),WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel
The theory or doctrine of the Law was invented and was sowed by those which interpreted the Law from a human perspective, in fact a stumbling block- Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective- Matthew 16:23.
JESUS said: John 7:38-He that believes on me,as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Thus, about Sababath,for the understanding of all of us here,I would ask for you: Do you believe in the Word made flesh,Lord JESUS? You know that The Word is GOD,right?The Word made flesh-Lord JESUS-,He Himself preached,saying:Mat.11:17-All the prophets and the Law prophesied until John,period.Therefore,GOD Himself established the Law to last 1500 years,from Moses until JESUS,no more,no more than this.
See,JESUS was not abolishing the Law His Father gave to Moses,it's evident: JESUS and the Father are One,although be two distincts Persons- Hebrews 1:3 & 8-, so,in fact,JESUS was only clarifying the period of validity of the Law given to Moses by His Father. GOD the Father had established The Law by His own power, the period of validity or prevalence of the Law lasted from Moses until JESUS specifically, understand?And JESUS only preached what GOD commanded Him to say to the people.JESUS said:Jo.12:49-I have not spoken of myself;but the Father which sent me,He gave me a commandment,what I should say,and what I should speak.
That said, keeping the Sabbath day over time after grace came, i.e.after JESUS came,these people do not do this by the Spirit of Christ,but by the letter written in the stone,according OT,the letter kills,and also they keep Sabbath day according to the calendar created and developed by devilish/satanic worshipers of the Beast of sea-Revevelation 13:1-10.
The true followers of my Lord JESUS do not fight against the Law of GOD given to Moses,but against seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils,speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
I understand your point to Momsage. We all have the tendency to defend people who may seem weak to our eyes (in knowledge or anything else) and get bullyied by others. But here this is not a case of bullying. It is a matter of truth. It is not adequate for one to sit home and read their Bible, God doesn't work like that. That is why He gave the ministries to the church ( Ephesians 4:11), one of them is the teacher, also the Pastor. If we could just stay away from a congregation and read our Bibles and learn everything, God wouldn't give those ministries. But God's work is mainly within the church, not outside it, and we need teachers and people who know a bit more than we do, even history.
I don't claim I am a teacher, I am not. But some things I know, as well as other brothers and sisters, may help somebody to see clearer, or even me. So we put forward what we know, and if the other person has something to say, let them say it. We don't reject somebody's believes without hearing them first. If I have nothing to say to defend my position then this becomes obvious to others. If I don't know much I must either be ready to learn from others otherwise why do I get into a discussion? Is all that wrong? Sorry you are bothered, it is true that sometimes we may seem aggresive but our aim is not to insult the other person but to show what we know it is true. GBU
You are absolutely right. Also it is prefferable to have those churches than nothing. In Europe in countries where those churches play a significant role in the society, usually Southen/Eastern Europe, people are closer to God and His commandments than the North where people are almost completely atheists and this is obvious from the no. of divorces, rate of crime, etc. But I wish they could just open their eyes and see and follow the truth. How a great salvation it could be done. In my country more than 95% of people have been baptized as Orthodox christians when they were infants. They often attend the church liturgies, take part in celebtations, festivals, fastings, everything...but their everyday life doesn't show Christ. If that church could see the truth and preach it, my God what a great salvation would result, I believe thousand and millions of people would have been saved. Another thing is that we must honor those churches, apart from condemning them all the time. This may sound strange but let us not forget that Christianity was spread throughout the world mainly by those 2 churches, the Catholics in the West and the Orthodoxes in the East. If those didn't exist, probably we wouldn't have learned anything about Christ. As we owe honor to Israel because they kept the faith to the real God for so many millenia so that the church found it at the end, the same way we owe honor to those churches because they kept the faith for so many centuaries untill we found it. This is justice. But we also have to talk to them about their errors. We really can not do much, but God is powerful to change that all completely. I believe that as we are approaching the end and the sin in the world is becoming biger and biger, the stonger our God's power will be revealed to the world. We can talk to everybody about our faith but if God doesn't show His strength not much will be done. So our prayes here is to see God powerful again, as the ancient times. ( Joel 2:23)
I understand your frustration Momsage , I too am extremely irritated when people put too much importance on what other , ordinary people say and think about the Bible as if they are in some way superior in knowledge to any of us . We are all reading the same book so any knowledge from that book is available for all of us to read and understand . All that is required is dedication patience and prayer and any of us can know the Truth . Humans have always tried to add or subtract from the Word of God , claiming to know or understand things better than others , as if they have some mystical gift , basically trying to make themselves into something special when all we need to know us available to all in the Bible . This is why many churches , especially in the past , did not encourage their congregation to actually read the Bible for themselves . I wish you would stay with us , I notice that you talk a lot about one particular subject , the Sabbath , it would be interesting to talk about other aspects of the Bible also :) it's a big book so there's plenty to talk about . I have often felt like never reading this site ever again but , hopefully you will cool down and come back , I always do :) . It can feel a bit as if everyone is against you on here sometimes but I handle that by not reading the posts of people that I know don't like me much :) it works wonders :):):) . Hope you will pop back and have a chat soon , maybe try a different subject ? Much love in Christ .
In 1 Cor 16 Paul asks Corinthians to gather money for Corinthians every Sunday, "2.Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
Why on Sundays when they could all meet on Saturdays (assuming they celebrated Sabbaths)? If Sunday was a congregation day why did they postpone the offerings untill the next day, and if Sunday was not a congregation day for them why bother coming again to the church to do that?
From the practise of my church. We meet twice during the week and on Sundays (some churches in big cities meet every day). During the week not everybody comes to the church, people are busy with their jobs, kids, all sort of things or are very tired to go to the church. But on Sundays everybody comes because they are free and also want to take part in the breaking of the Bread, etc. So it is Sundays that we offer money for the the needs of the church, so that we can get the most of it. So if one wants to get the most of it they would gather money on Sundays, not say Wednesdays It is obvious, isn't it? So the main service of the church was done on Sundays when apart from taking part in the breaking of the bread, they offered money for the function of the church or the poor, etc, thus Sunday was the most important day for them, not Saturday.
Sometime later on I will go on with what Paul says about Sabbaths.
1. Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
Isn't obvious here that the Breaking of bread was done during Sunday? Why does the text mention the breaking of bread? Answer, because at that time the breaking of bread was not done during the church service in the morning, but christians sat on tables in the evening and had it then, exactly the way Jesus did it with His disciples before He was crucified. (also see 1 Cor 11:20-32 where Paul talks about Lord's supper which was done on Lord's day/Sunday. If you look this up in history books those suppers were called "agapae" [grk for love, plural] and that habit was eventually abandoned sometime during the 2nd century) So we can understand how Paul kept teaching until midnight, otherwise one may wonder how true can be that Paul preached from morning to midnight. But from that little detail we know now that the breaking of bread was done on Sundays. We also find out that the breaking of bread was done every Sunday, not once every 2-3 months or whenever some planned it, like in some churches (If it was done once in a while the text would say "on one of the first days or a first day, in greek this is more clear than the Engl translation)
Now if Sabbath was still the main congregation day and holiday, would the christians perform the most important act of the church function on another day? I wouldn't think so.
It's also Not by command whereby we worship! It's produced by being attached the genuine vine and quickening spirit.
It is "shared love" whereby we worship. This is produced within and expressed outwardly.
This is done by a "NEW" heart!
Paul said in Philippians; "Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:1-3.
You have two groups here.
One is trying to achieve something that has never been done before!
( Salvation and holiness by the work of their own hands.)
They try to live a Godly life but yet can find no rest!
They become fruitless.
This was Israel's problem and still is today.
Israel was to present to the world a true and living God that provides. (JEHOVAH-JIREH.)
However, they became a degenerate vine! Jeremiah 2:21.
This couldn't be done outwardly with a ungenerated fleshly heart.
Israel mission "unknowingly" Was to present to the world that they needed a savior. They presented the law which was our "Schoolmaster".
There are those today called Christians lack understanding in the New Covenant and make that same mistake today.
The other group rest in Christ, and is quickened by the Spirit and is Spirit driven!
They honor God's commands that "applies to them" by the power of the New Covenant. They are quickened by the life giving spirit.
So they found rest in the work performed on the cross. They perform their works by the operation of God and become fruitful.
The Epistle of Barnabas as well as the Didache were books that were very popular among christians during the first 2-3 centuries AD. Although not God inspired like the NT they shed light to the practises and beliefs of the ancient church and fill the gaps of knowledge we have about things not described (or are not very clear) in the NT about the beliefs, the church function, etc of those early times.
Well you keep mentioning the catholic church and what some catholic priests and catholic encyclopedias claim. On the internet one can find the history of the church, there is a lot of information, so you can look all those things up, not always from the catholic side of view. In general the catholic church didn't emerge as a separate church before 1054 AD although the Pope and the church of Rome were a significant part of christianity many centuries before.The so called Post Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius and Justin and Clement and many others were Greeks who lived during the time the church was united. If you pay attention to their writtings the way they say the Holy Communion(or breaking of bread, Eucharist) was to be done is very different to the way the catholics do it.
For your own information, in the following centuries the greeks never became catholics, they formed the Eastern Orthodox church which was always in "war" with the catholics. For a greek at those later times to call them a catholic was like a big insult really.
So you have been given a lot of references on the writtings and beliefs of those early christians, what else would you like? Maybe you should try to read what others say as well about these things, not only very specific books.
About historical proofs about what catholics say, I can not do that. I came out of the Greek Orthodox church many years ago and joined a reborn congregation. So I know quite a few about the church at that time etc, but I am not really intersted in searching things like that in such a detail.
Funny thing about the "spirit" of the law, you ever notice it always includes the "letter"?.. I mean, can we adhere to the spirit of the law concerning adultery, yet be free to commit the actual act according to the letter? Of course not, the "moral law" doesn't change, the ceremonial law has been nailed to the cross.
"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles," and St Paul cites grafting in the context of the early church that is being built on the foundation of Christ. The analogy of an olive tree we have in the epistle (Ro.11:24) where reconciling the world was a wish left unfulfilled. What hindered the kingdom building?
The Spirit introduces this verse "And if the root be holy, so are the branches."(Ro.11:16b)
How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay and heresies are its natural world. So who deceived the builders so instead of the doctrine of Christ we are left with the supremacy of Pope and the Church of Rome as the Mother Church? 'If the root be holy' tells it all.
No wonder we have a tree not planted by God but by man. It is not 'I am the true Vine and ye are the branches '
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."(11:18) How long shall a believer let carried from truth?
"and if the root be holy, so are the branches."(Ro.11:16b)
I see in this forum lot of arguments regarding the Sabbath, and I wonder why are we splitting hairs while we have come to the ends of the world,?- and there is some mighty shaking that is about to set off. The Jews could not enter the rest God promised them since observance of the day was good enough for them. Not live therein to His praise and glory.
God blessed man on the sixth day and sanctified it since his calling and gifts are irrevocable. What stopped them from entering into God's rest but disbelief? "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."(1 Co.10:11-13) As His mercies are new everyday what prevents our churches from entering into the rest? Culture wars of the ungodly are very much within. How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay trying to fit with the iron of pagan world. No wonder dialogue is never about settling the spiritual significance of the day but about the letter which kills. It is thus literal reading of the Holy writ has created divisions. If the root be unholy, what about her branches, the Reformation of Luther Calvin, Charismatic movements but a snake-pit to breed controversies? When God shakes the world as it shall happen before long and after the dust clears we shall see the word of God once again shaping a world the pure speech shall be found."For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent."(Zep.3:9)
I'm so sorry GiGi but I thought these discussions were based on the inspired Word of God - the King James Bible. I don't understand how you can quote someone outside the KJB. That is the authority here, not some obscure document that wasn't canonized. I'm confused why the people in charge of this discussion forum allowed references from a false document that was not from the KJB. How can I trust anything in any discussion anymore. Please don't misunderstand me, I think you are a very nice, smart woman but I am going to get out of here now.
A post from GiGi: "Thank you for offering us these quotes from these believing leaders in the time when apostle John was still alive (before 95AD. and/or in the decades shortly after he died. Many of the writers of the 100's AD were appointed to their offices by the apostles or by one who was appointed by an apostle. They were men of faith in our Lord."
If this is biblical or a historical please give me references. Also, please tell me, with historical proof, why this quote is not authentic. "It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo
Hello again, I re-read my post to you. My statements are a summing up of what I have learned about church history on this topic. i do not have quotes for you.
Quotes are good in some ways, and I appreciate the ones you have supplied, but the quotes of a few people may or may not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the majority, nor be the "official" teaching of a sect.
My suggestion to you is to go to sites that cover the history of the early church times between AD 35 and 150 AD to find out more about how the church functioned and what a variety of church leaders have said on certain topics. This can give you the comprehensive information you desire to consider.
I do not expect anyone to just simply take my word for anything, but hope that anyone who is truly serious about finding out about a topic, especially one that is well documented in the early church, that person should do their own study so they can learn for themselves,
I know that you are looking for sources from me and others who are discussing the topic of the Sabbath commandment. I cannot yet give you sources. Giannis is the one who quoted Barnabas, so perhaps he knows more on this. I can (and you can) search online to find out more about the Barnabas quote or any others mentioned in Giannis' post.
On my part, I really am feeling that I am to only be involved in this discussion if the Spirit directs me to, so I'm being prayerful concerning this thread.
It is good for you to be encouraging to Momsage.
I do not think Giannis, myself, or anyone else on this forum was being aggressive to Momsage nor where we trying to promote our selves, our scholarship, or our superiority. If that is what you get from our postings, I must say that you are reading more into what has been presented than what we said or meant. Also, speaking for myself, I like you, considering you a wonderful sister in Christ that God has blessed me with. I am sure others here think the same. So be assured that you are loved and cherished on this forum.
As for me, I try to read almost all of what is posted on this forum because I respect everyone's ideas, that they took the time to post, and that they are brethren. I read most posts because I can learn from others, be made to ponder a topic and then explore it more deeply myself, add my view to the discussion. I can answer a question and I can know prayer requests so I can have the privilege to pray for the need expressed. Yet, each person is free to decide how they participate on this forum and I respect that as well.
So, may you have peace today. May you be encouraged and know that you are appreciated here and loved for who you are in Christ as we all should be. It saddens me to know that you think that some of us do not like you. I hope that God will assure you of your love and acceptance here, especially by those of us who post here. Have a blessed day.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts today.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.
We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.
My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.
John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
GOD to shine HIS face gloriously on all who love and look forward to HIS coming!
January 6, 2024
Acts 20:7 makes clear that gathering of the saints occurred on the first day of the week to bolster the collection made according to 1 Corinthians 16:2. The prescident is really from the fact that Christ fulfilled Pentacost which was the 8th day of the week (or Sunday) in the O.T. times was celebrated 50 days after the Passover.
Since we are not to have certain days to be held above others as Romans 14:5-6 indicates; we have no right to dictate either Saturday or Sunday for worship as I see it. Again; the Old Testament command was for Israel specifically as anyone in the land who disrespected the Sabbath was severely punished (see Deuteronomy 5:14). Other laws in the Old Testament such as marriage were clearly upheld even with pagan societies (as we see with the case of John the Baptist when he was imprisoned for contesting with the marriage status of a secular leader married to his brother's wife). Murder was evident with Cain well before the law came out. The fact is that Saturday worship can no longer be as it was without the sacrifices and other ordinances of the O.T. times which have been gone since the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Christ is our Passover now ( 1 Corinthians 5:7) and the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath ( Matthew 12:8).
We also need to consider what Paul stated to those who were coming from pagan societies. He said in Acts 15:29 to avoid eating blood; or strangled animals (often done in pagan rituals) as well as sexual immorality. If Saturday worship was required you would expect something would be mentioned as all other things in the Commandments which are throughout the New Testament in the Gospels and Epistles.
There are further concerns with Adventist doctrines and Ellen White which I am not going to get into detail here; but this often is an added reason for this and other issues of contention. I agree that the edict of Milan enforcing Sunday worship is wrong also.
I am glad to hear you had a great time over the holidays, I hope you were able to rest your heels of travel. Yes, it is the circumcision of the heart that the reformation begins, and the Holy Spirit inspires true worship. Worship is our response to what the Spirit reveals to us about God.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We do this with our renewed minds led by the Spirit not with our wisdom and emotions, they can be deceived. Being deceived is to be easily caught up or carried away or taken out of the way, the favorite tool of Satan, like prey taken in the mouth of a lion.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: If we are deceived, we are devoured. We must be vigilant daily to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, Jesus. Daily, as the Apostles did in the beginning, preaching the Gospel of Jesus every day, Acts 2:46-47 Acts 5:42 Acts 16:5.
God bless,
RLW
I wanted to differentiate between that and those such as Messianic Jews who may choose to worship on Saurdays. I have attended meetings in several of these type settings when I lived in Pittsburgh; and have seen how there is a fairly good acceptance of other believers such as myself who worship on Sundays. Nonetheless; there are reminders with events not to serve food that isn't considered Kosher which I suppose is ok not to offend those of the Jewish faith we wish to bring to Christ by not allowing our liberties to dissuade men. In regard to Saturday sabbath; it is clear that the PENALTY is for those who are in Israel who are cut off from God that disobey the Sabbath. In that regard it appears to be uniquely there for the Israelites only; while other laws such as divorce count for all men (as we see from examples with pagans who were told; for instance not to touch Abraham and Issac's wife when they were passed off as sisters; and John the Baptist being martyred for a pagan marrying his brothers wife). We could say the same of course for murder which is something found originally with Cain well before the law was delivered on Sinai.
God may well establish again some of this during the Millennial reign at least with the Temple which will keep people ceremonially clean around glorified saints and Christ after He returns as well as be a reminder of Christ's sacrifice for sin.
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the Judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the Judgment of GOD?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of GOD leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of GOD;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth (GOD IS TRUTH), but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
12For as many as have sinned without law (THE GENTILES) shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as have sinned in the LAW shall be JUDGED by the LAW;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before GOD,but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles(believers),WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel
THE WORD IS GOD
The theory or doctrine of the Law was invented and was sowed by those which interpreted the Law from a human perspective, in fact a stumbling block- Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective- Matthew 16:23.
JESUS said: John 7:38-He that believes on me,as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Thus, about Sababath,for the understanding of all of us here,I would ask for you: Do you believe in the Word made flesh,Lord JESUS? You know that The Word is GOD,right?The Word made flesh-Lord JESUS-,He Himself preached,saying:Mat.11:17-All the prophets and the Law prophesied until John,period.Therefore,GOD Himself established the Law to last 1500 years,from Moses until JESUS,no more,no more than this.
See,JESUS was not abolishing the Law His Father gave to Moses,it's evident: JESUS and the Father are One,although be two distincts Persons- Hebrews 1:3 & 8-, so,in fact,JESUS was only clarifying the period of validity of the Law given to Moses by His Father. GOD the Father had established The Law by His own power, the period of validity or prevalence of the Law lasted from Moses until JESUS specifically, understand?And JESUS only preached what GOD commanded Him to say to the people.JESUS said:Jo.12:49-I have not spoken of myself;but the Father which sent me,He gave me a commandment,what I should say,and what I should speak.
That said, keeping the Sabbath day over time after grace came, i.e.after JESUS came,these people do not do this by the Spirit of Christ,but by the letter written in the stone,according OT,the letter kills,and also they keep Sabbath day according to the calendar created and developed by devilish/satanic worshipers of the Beast of sea-Revevelation 13:1-10.
The true followers of my Lord JESUS do not fight against the Law of GOD given to Moses,but against seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils,speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
Be careful- 2Peter 3:7&11-12 & Isaiah 33:10-14
I understand your point to Momsage. We all have the tendency to defend people who may seem weak to our eyes (in knowledge or anything else) and get bullyied by others. But here this is not a case of bullying. It is a matter of truth. It is not adequate for one to sit home and read their Bible, God doesn't work like that. That is why He gave the ministries to the church ( Ephesians 4:11), one of them is the teacher, also the Pastor. If we could just stay away from a congregation and read our Bibles and learn everything, God wouldn't give those ministries. But God's work is mainly within the church, not outside it, and we need teachers and people who know a bit more than we do, even history.
I don't claim I am a teacher, I am not. But some things I know, as well as other brothers and sisters, may help somebody to see clearer, or even me. So we put forward what we know, and if the other person has something to say, let them say it. We don't reject somebody's believes without hearing them first. If I have nothing to say to defend my position then this becomes obvious to others. If I don't know much I must either be ready to learn from others otherwise why do I get into a discussion? Is all that wrong? Sorry you are bothered, it is true that sometimes we may seem aggresive but our aim is not to insult the other person but to show what we know it is true. GBU
You are absolutely right. Also it is prefferable to have those churches than nothing. In Europe in countries where those churches play a significant role in the society, usually Southen/Eastern Europe, people are closer to God and His commandments than the North where people are almost completely atheists and this is obvious from the no. of divorces, rate of crime, etc. But I wish they could just open their eyes and see and follow the truth. How a great salvation it could be done. In my country more than 95% of people have been baptized as Orthodox christians when they were infants. They often attend the church liturgies, take part in celebtations, festivals, fastings, everything...but their everyday life doesn't show Christ. If that church could see the truth and preach it, my God what a great salvation would result, I believe thousand and millions of people would have been saved. Another thing is that we must honor those churches, apart from condemning them all the time. This may sound strange but let us not forget that Christianity was spread throughout the world mainly by those 2 churches, the Catholics in the West and the Orthodoxes in the East. If those didn't exist, probably we wouldn't have learned anything about Christ. As we owe honor to Israel because they kept the faith to the real God for so many millenia so that the church found it at the end, the same way we owe honor to those churches because they kept the faith for so many centuaries untill we found it. This is justice. But we also have to talk to them about their errors. We really can not do much, but God is powerful to change that all completely. I believe that as we are approaching the end and the sin in the world is becoming biger and biger, the stonger our God's power will be revealed to the world. We can talk to everybody about our faith but if God doesn't show His strength not much will be done. So our prayes here is to see God powerful again, as the ancient times. ( Joel 2:23)
GBU
In 1 Cor 16 Paul asks Corinthians to gather money for Corinthians every Sunday, "2.Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
Why on Sundays when they could all meet on Saturdays (assuming they celebrated Sabbaths)? If Sunday was a congregation day why did they postpone the offerings untill the next day, and if Sunday was not a congregation day for them why bother coming again to the church to do that?
From the practise of my church. We meet twice during the week and on Sundays (some churches in big cities meet every day). During the week not everybody comes to the church, people are busy with their jobs, kids, all sort of things or are very tired to go to the church. But on Sundays everybody comes because they are free and also want to take part in the breaking of the Bread, etc. So it is Sundays that we offer money for the the needs of the church, so that we can get the most of it. So if one wants to get the most of it they would gather money on Sundays, not say Wednesdays It is obvious, isn't it? So the main service of the church was done on Sundays when apart from taking part in the breaking of the bread, they offered money for the function of the church or the poor, etc, thus Sunday was the most important day for them, not Saturday.
Sometime later on I will go on with what Paul says about Sabbaths.
GBU
Lets talk from the scriptures.
1. Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."
Isn't obvious here that the Breaking of bread was done during Sunday? Why does the text mention the breaking of bread? Answer, because at that time the breaking of bread was not done during the church service in the morning, but christians sat on tables in the evening and had it then, exactly the way Jesus did it with His disciples before He was crucified. (also see 1 Cor 11:20-32 where Paul talks about Lord's supper which was done on Lord's day/Sunday. If you look this up in history books those suppers were called "agapae" [grk for love, plural] and that habit was eventually abandoned sometime during the 2nd century) So we can understand how Paul kept teaching until midnight, otherwise one may wonder how true can be that Paul preached from morning to midnight. But from that little detail we know now that the breaking of bread was done on Sundays. We also find out that the breaking of bread was done every Sunday, not once every 2-3 months or whenever some planned it, like in some churches (If it was done once in a while the text would say "on one of the first days or a first day, in greek this is more clear than the Engl translation)
Now if Sabbath was still the main congregation day and holiday, would the christians perform the most important act of the church function on another day? I wouldn't think so.
Amen Ronald!
I hope you enjoyed your holidays.
I certainly did.
It's not a location or a day whereby we worship!
It's also Not by command whereby we worship! It's produced by being attached the genuine vine and quickening spirit.
It is "shared love" whereby we worship. This is produced within and expressed outwardly.
This is done by a "NEW" heart!
Paul said in Philippians; "Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:1-3.
You have two groups here.
One is trying to achieve something that has never been done before!
( Salvation and holiness by the work of their own hands.)
They try to live a Godly life but yet can find no rest!
They become fruitless.
This was Israel's problem and still is today.
Israel was to present to the world a true and living God that provides. (JEHOVAH-JIREH.)
However, they became a degenerate vine! Jeremiah 2:21.
This couldn't be done outwardly with a ungenerated fleshly heart.
Israel mission "unknowingly" Was to present to the world that they needed a savior. They presented the law which was our "Schoolmaster".
There are those today called Christians lack understanding in the New Covenant and make that same mistake today.
The other group rest in Christ, and is quickened by the Spirit and is Spirit driven!
They honor God's commands that "applies to them" by the power of the New Covenant. They are quickened by the life giving spirit.
So they found rest in the work performed on the cross. They perform their works by the operation of God and become fruitful.
God bless.
The Epistle of Barnabas as well as the Didache were books that were very popular among christians during the first 2-3 centuries AD. Although not God inspired like the NT they shed light to the practises and beliefs of the ancient church and fill the gaps of knowledge we have about things not described (or are not very clear) in the NT about the beliefs, the church function, etc of those early times.
Well you keep mentioning the catholic church and what some catholic priests and catholic encyclopedias claim. On the internet one can find the history of the church, there is a lot of information, so you can look all those things up, not always from the catholic side of view. In general the catholic church didn't emerge as a separate church before 1054 AD although the Pope and the church of Rome were a significant part of christianity many centuries before.The so called Post Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius and Justin and Clement and many others were Greeks who lived during the time the church was united. If you pay attention to their writtings the way they say the Holy Communion(or breaking of bread, Eucharist) was to be done is very different to the way the catholics do it.
For your own information, in the following centuries the greeks never became catholics, they formed the Eastern Orthodox church which was always in "war" with the catholics. For a greek at those later times to call them a catholic was like a big insult really.
So you have been given a lot of references on the writtings and beliefs of those early christians, what else would you like? Maybe you should try to read what others say as well about these things, not only very specific books.
About historical proofs about what catholics say, I can not do that. I came out of the Greek Orthodox church many years ago and joined a reborn congregation. So I know quite a few about the church at that time etc, but I am not really intersted in searching things like that in such a detail.
The Spirit introduces this verse "And if the root be holy, so are the branches."(Ro.11:16b)
How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay and heresies are its natural world. So who deceived the builders so instead of the doctrine of Christ we are left with the supremacy of Pope and the Church of Rome as the Mother Church? 'If the root be holy' tells it all.
No wonder we have a tree not planted by God but by man. It is not 'I am the true Vine and ye are the branches '
"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."(11:18) How long shall a believer let carried from truth?
I see in this forum lot of arguments regarding the Sabbath, and I wonder why are we splitting hairs while we have come to the ends of the world,?- and there is some mighty shaking that is about to set off. The Jews could not enter the rest God promised them since observance of the day was good enough for them. Not live therein to His praise and glory.
God blessed man on the sixth day and sanctified it since his calling and gifts are irrevocable. What stopped them from entering into God's rest but disbelief? "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."(1 Co.10:11-13) As His mercies are new everyday what prevents our churches from entering into the rest? Culture wars of the ungodly are very much within. How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay trying to fit with the iron of pagan world. No wonder dialogue is never about settling the spiritual significance of the day but about the letter which kills. It is thus literal reading of the Holy writ has created divisions. If the root be unholy, what about her branches, the Reformation of Luther Calvin, Charismatic movements but a snake-pit to breed controversies? When God shakes the world as it shall happen before long and after the dust clears we shall see the word of God once again shaping a world the pure speech shall be found."For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent."(Zep.3:9)
A post from GiGi: "Thank you for offering us these quotes from these believing leaders in the time when apostle John was still alive (before 95AD. and/or in the decades shortly after he died. Many of the writers of the 100's AD were appointed to their offices by the apostles or by one who was appointed by an apostle. They were men of faith in our Lord."
If this is biblical or a historical please give me references. Also, please tell me, with historical proof, why this quote is not authentic. "It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo
God Bless :)
You can look up the "Epistle of Barnabas" for more information. It was written in the 1st 100 years of the church.
It is a different document than the "Gospel of Barnabas" which was written in the Middle Ages and is heretical.
Hope this helps.
Quotes are good in some ways, and I appreciate the ones you have supplied, but the quotes of a few people may or may not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the majority, nor be the "official" teaching of a sect.
My suggestion to you is to go to sites that cover the history of the early church times between AD 35 and 150 AD to find out more about how the church functioned and what a variety of church leaders have said on certain topics. This can give you the comprehensive information you desire to consider.
I do not expect anyone to just simply take my word for anything, but hope that anyone who is truly serious about finding out about a topic, especially one that is well documented in the early church, that person should do their own study so they can learn for themselves,
I know that you are looking for sources from me and others who are discussing the topic of the Sabbath commandment. I cannot yet give you sources. Giannis is the one who quoted Barnabas, so perhaps he knows more on this. I can (and you can) search online to find out more about the Barnabas quote or any others mentioned in Giannis' post.
On my part, I really am feeling that I am to only be involved in this discussion if the Spirit directs me to, so I'm being prayerful concerning this thread.
Blessings to you in every way.