Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:101 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
"And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
Firstly it is the angel who is a fellow servant who is measuring.It is faith which is signified by the golden reed. "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb./ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." (vv.14-15). The 12 apostles of the Lamb are the same on earth were associates of Jesus Christ. This is New Jerusalem, the throne of which is now the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1)
John was in the spirit so he is being given a preview of things which must shortly come to pass, while the guid, an angel is nimself in the world of the Spirit. "And I John saw these things, and heard them.... I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things./Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." (22:8-9). Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel.
Jesus Christ is the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. So the single yardstick the angel uses is according to the measure of a man, that is of the angel. The heresy of individualism, American brand of bold initiatives upon which megachurches and the corporate model of Evangelicalism relies is not from God. The rule of God applies. "And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."(Ex.16:18). Abiding in Christ what is gathered in the world of Spirit follows the same rule.
The measuring reed is faith and the Gospel is one, within which 'the lame takes the prey.'
Recap: The Spirit placed the tag 3, which is a Command number so the Son in heaven is Three. The Word become flesh is Four. 1260 refers to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Daniel's vision in Ch.12 gives us two sets of numbers 1260+30 +1290 days. 3X10 determined outpouring of the Holy Spirit to the point of rapture, which concerns the first fruits, the church. Multiples of 10 gives us the abiding life in Christ so every saint redeemed from the earth is led by the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."Ro.8:14)
second set 1335 is made up 1260+75
Here we have 50 that refers to the *Jubilie.
What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth. Before Jubilee year isproclaimed we have an interval which is given here. "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."(Re.20:8)
*What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.
The earth abides forever and New Jerusalem comes up free from any claim from with regards to their inheritance. New Jerusalem is for the heirs of promise.
In Jesus Mighty Name I decree and declare healing of Ashleys hormones, in Jesus Mighty Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's menstrual cycle, in Jesus Mighty Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's eczema, in Jesus Mighty Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's blood, in Jesus Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's B and D vitamin levels , in Jesus Mighty Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's hair, in Jesus Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's mind, heart, body and soul, in Jesus Name I decree and declare healing of Ashley's family relationships and her relationship with her boyfriend, may God clear and protect the path to marriage quickly, in Jesus Name I decree and declare Almighty protection over and on and around Ashley and CS and my whole family and I, included BW and family near and far, deliver us from every evil and lead us not into temptation in Jesus Mighty Name Amen and Hallelujah!!!
Please pray for my mom. She is in excruciating back pain at times, especially when she has to get in her bed. She is 92 years old but not your typical 92 year old. I am her only caregiver and she cannot get in a car right now. I've prayed all weekend. She needs relief as being taken to a hospital may not be the best thing here. It has always caused additional problems in the past. She's been taking physical therapy at home for a couple of weeks and he is scheduled for tomorrow. Thank you for any prayers. She needs help!
Sarah, So sorry to hear your Mom is sick. I will be happy to pray for her.
Dear heavenly Father, we come tonight in the name of Jesus asking for You to bring swift healing for Sarah's dear Mom. Cause her to begin to feel better right now and take away the pain and symptoms that are bothering her so. We ask that You do a great healing work in her body and that she will receive comfort, peace and rest while her body heals and is strengthened by Your amazing power, grace, and . Amen
Thanks brother Jesse. I'm guessing that Momsage would be open to others writing in, from her comment to me. And of course, I would be interested in what she learns concerning the Trinity & why the speaker believes that this doctrine is erroneous. Blessings.
So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).
Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Thank you for your post to brother Carleton and myself, but I am not sure that I am understanding what you are saying here? I may have to read through this a few more times. Some things take me a little longer to figure out, sorry!
There were many Jewish people in the Church of Rome,and the Apostle Paul in his universal epistle to the Church of Rome, he wrote: Romans 2:5-16:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD
12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT Law(the Gentiles)shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be Judged by the Law;
13 (For not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts(Hallelujah!!), their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another-)
16 In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (The Day arrived-Woe of the inhabiters of the Earth)
I just read your post and wanted to say that I was just about to post a comment similar to yours but was not sure how to say what I wanted to say because it seems to be getting more and more difficult to post comments lately without someone becoming offended in some way.
I also was a little surprised that you were asked to engage in further discussion by momsage for the same reason. Of the two topics listed (sabbath and KJB), I was following along on the KJB topic for a couple of weeks and holding back from engaging in discussion because of the comment you are probably referring to which was, and I quote: "I don't discuss in this forum anymore with anyone except two of my friends." I took that literally, and it was because of those words that I chose not to engage in discussion on that topic with momsage.
I realize that momsage will probably read this since every post is viewable by all. That is okay. I have no hard feelings towards anyone on this forum. Besides having many brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus here, I also consider everyone here as a friend. But what I would like to know from momsage is if she is truly open for discussion with anyone else on this forum? I do agree with momsage about argumentative conversations. I do not enjoy those either. But friendly open-minded discussions should be welcomed.
Blessings to both you and momsage. I do look forward to reading your further discussion, if the Lord leads you both in that direction!!!
Mat.5:5 -Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth.
Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.
Jo.17:6-8 & 18
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
Re. 11:15-19
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Hello Momsage. Thank you for your comment. Firstly, I was a little surprised that you addressed me, since, as I recall, you made it clear that you would only correspond with GiGi & Jema. Hence I, & probably others haven't corresponded with you, particularly on the Sabbath-keeping topic. But maybe you meant it to apply to that topic alone & not others subjects.
Secondly, I believe you read my comment to S. Spencer incorrectly. Actually, I am very interested in lengthy back-and-forth discussions to reach a conclusion, rather than wanting "to quit" a discussion. I have found that discussions end abruptly, to my dismay, but not without a variety of reasons that the other person might have for doing so. Thus the limitations of such a discussion page come to the fore.
Using your example of the vibrant discussion you had recently on the Sabbath: obviously, I can't comment on other folk's comments or their not giving you the answers you required, yet I can say this of myself: if I recall, I did give limited comment on this topic, and my belief on the Sabbath, indeed the whole Decalogue, is generally at variance with other folk. What you sought were verses from us to refute the necessity of Sabbath-keeping, & I believe some were given you, concerning the Lord's Day observance (first day of the week), that our Sabbath-rest is found in Jesus alone, & maybe other references. These, I noted, you rejected. So what's next? In one sense, a stale-mate has been reached & we can proceed no further. Or else, we need to go back to the root, or core, of the matter to learn about this 'problematic' Decalogue; and this matter is found with the receivers of the Law & its intended outcome and how, if at all, it affects Gentiles.
The 'Trinity' debate has appeared on these pages for as long as I've been here, & of course, much before that. So yes, please share your understanding of it; and I believe bro. Ronald has given us some thoughts to consider & respond to. GBU
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY MY LIFE DOWN for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (the Gentiles peoples): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth MY FATHER LOVES ME, because I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, that I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, and I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This COMMANDMENT have I received of my Father.
I will send this to you as I feel we consider each other as brothers. I thought I was clear when I ended my conversation about the Trinity, but it does not sound like that is not understood with the comments I have read.
I will ask this question not to stump anyone, but it is one I have not ever answered.
First, I would like to say Jesus was before any creation, He is the beginning of creation, and all was created after Him and through Him, but it was in God's plan of creation that Jesus being appointed heir to, Heb 1:1-4. Jesus was the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and in the fullness of time He was conceived, Ephesians 1:9-10. There were two Adams and Jesus is the last Adam both Adams who were men who came into this world without sin. The first sinned and the last lived perfect totally obedient to the Father.
Question, Jesus was conceived and brought forth the only begotten Son of God to die for the sins of mankind. If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted, James 1:13, but it is clear Jesus was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15 and He died shedding His blood to cover our sins.
Can God die? If not, how are our sins covered? Could the works of the devil be undone if God fulfilled the law that was made for man? The law was made for man and a man had to live without sin to fulfill it. What is the meaning of Acts 2:24 if Jesus was not a man?
Sorry to send this to you but anyone can answer, Love you brother.
Meditation that brings you to Psalms 45,especially Psalms 45:6-7.
Speaking of JESUS(Ps.45:6-7)-->In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne,O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom.(It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16, about the archangel Michael who comes first,comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)
Hebrews 1:7-And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:--> 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh,O most mighty,with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John,These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)
5Thine arrows( Revelation 6:2)are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies;whereby the people fall under thee.( Revelation 11:15)
Re.11:16-17
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord GOD Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned( 1Corinthians 15:24-27and51-55-Take a look)
Re.11:18-And the nations were angry,and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
I believe the Trinity discussion is a fruitful one and there is a lot to learn from it.
I believe some has let certain doctrine consume them to the point where they break fellowship. The Trinity is just one of many.
I believe we should explore all doctrine but no doctrine should cause a hatred that has been displayed by some.
We search the scripture and let the spirit of truth do his work in our lives.
There should be an increase in fruit in our lives and love for the Brothern that is produced from above as a result of the truth providing that the spirit of Christ is in us.
Part 1
Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:10 1 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
See part 2.
God bless,
RLW
"And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
Firstly it is the angel who is a fellow servant who is measuring.It is faith which is signified by the golden reed. "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb./ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." (vv.14-15). The 12 apostles of the Lamb are the same on earth were associates of Jesus Christ. This is New Jerusalem, the throne of which is now the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1)
John was in the spirit so he is being given a preview of things which must shortly come to pass, while the guid, an angel is nimself in the world of the Spirit. "And I John saw these things, and heard them.... I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things./Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." (22:8-9). Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel.
Jesus Christ is the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. So the single yardstick the angel uses is according to the measure of a man, that is of the angel. The heresy of individualism, American brand of bold initiatives upon which megachurches and the corporate model of Evangelicalism relies is not from God. The rule of God applies. "And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."(Ex.16:18). Abiding in Christ what is gathered in the world of Spirit follows the same rule.
The measuring reed is faith and the Gospel is one, within which 'the lame takes the prey.'
I got your post as I'm getting up for work.
I may be able to give throughout the week as you know I travel.
You're asking how could Jesus be our Kinsman redeemer if he's God and not a man.
I've briefly touched on this recently.
For now I pass this on to someone else considering we have discussed this and know one another's view quite well.
God bless and I Love you too Brother.
Recap: The Spirit placed the tag 3, which is a Command number so the Son in heaven is Three. The Word become flesh is Four. 1260 refers to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Daniel's vision in Ch.12 gives us two sets of numbers 1260+30 +1290 days. 3X10 determined outpouring of the Holy Spirit to the point of rapture, which concerns the first fruits, the church. Multiples of 10 gives us the abiding life in Christ so every saint redeemed from the earth is led by the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."Ro.8:14)
second set 1335 is made up 1260+75
Here we have 50 that refers to the *Jubilie.
What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth. Before Jubilee year isproclaimed we have an interval which is given here. "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."(Re.20:8)
*What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.
The earth abides forever and New Jerusalem comes up free from any claim from with regards to their inheritance. New Jerusalem is for the heirs of promise.
Dear heavenly Father, we come tonight in the name of Jesus asking for You to bring swift healing for Sarah's dear Mom. Cause her to begin to feel better right now and take away the pain and symptoms that are bothering her so. We ask that You do a great healing work in her body and that she will receive comfort, peace and rest while her body heals and is strengthened by Your amazing power, grace, and . Amen
So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).
Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
You are welcome.
GOD bless
Thank you for your post to brother Carleton and myself, but I am not sure that I am understanding what you are saying here? I may have to read through this a few more times. Some things take me a little longer to figure out, sorry!
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD
12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT Law(the Gentiles)shall also perish without Law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be Judged by the Law;
13 (For not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a Law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts(Hallelujah!!), their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another-)
16 In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (The Day arrived-Woe of the inhabiters of the Earth)
The Word is GOD, self-executing
I just read your post and wanted to say that I was just about to post a comment similar to yours but was not sure how to say what I wanted to say because it seems to be getting more and more difficult to post comments lately without someone becoming offended in some way.
I also was a little surprised that you were asked to engage in further discussion by momsage for the same reason. Of the two topics listed (sabbath and KJB), I was following along on the KJB topic for a couple of weeks and holding back from engaging in discussion because of the comment you are probably referring to which was, and I quote: "I don't discuss in this forum anymore with anyone except two of my friends." I took that literally, and it was because of those words that I chose not to engage in discussion on that topic with momsage.
I realize that momsage will probably read this since every post is viewable by all. That is okay. I have no hard feelings towards anyone on this forum. Besides having many brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus here, I also consider everyone here as a friend. But what I would like to know from momsage is if she is truly open for discussion with anyone else on this forum? I do agree with momsage about argumentative conversations. I do not enjoy those either. But friendly open-minded discussions should be welcomed.
Blessings to both you and momsage. I do look forward to reading your further discussion, if the Lord leads you both in that direction!!!
Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.
Jo.17:6-8 & 18
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
Re. 11:15-19
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of GOD opened in heaven
Secondly, I believe you read my comment to S. Spencer incorrectly. Actually, I am very interested in lengthy back-and-forth discussions to reach a conclusion, rather than wanting "to quit" a discussion. I have found that discussions end abruptly, to my dismay, but not without a variety of reasons that the other person might have for doing so. Thus the limitations of such a discussion page come to the fore.
Using your example of the vibrant discussion you had recently on the Sabbath: obviously, I can't comment on other folk's comments or their not giving you the answers you required, yet I can say this of myself: if I recall, I did give limited comment on this topic, and my belief on the Sabbath, indeed the whole Decalogue, is generally at variance with other folk. What you sought were verses from us to refute the necessity of Sabbath-keeping, & I believe some were given you, concerning the Lord's Day observance (first day of the week), that our Sabbath-rest is found in Jesus alone, & maybe other references. These, I noted, you rejected. So what's next? In one sense, a stale-mate has been reached & we can proceed no further. Or else, we need to go back to the root, or core, of the matter to learn about this 'problematic' Decalogue; and this matter is found with the receivers of the Law & its intended outcome and how, if at all, it affects Gentiles.
The 'Trinity' debate has appeared on these pages for as long as I've been here, & of course, much before that. So yes, please share your understanding of it; and I believe bro. Ronald has given us some thoughts to consider & respond to. GBU
Amen.
Praised be our GOD and Father
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY MY LIFE DOWN for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (the Gentiles peoples): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth MY FATHER LOVES ME, because I LAY DOWN MY LIFE, that I MIGHT TAKE IT AGAIN.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I LAY IT DOWN OF MYSELF. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, and I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This COMMANDMENT have I received of my Father.
I will send this to you as I feel we consider each other as brothers. I thought I was clear when I ended my conversation about the Trinity, but it does not sound like that is not understood with the comments I have read.
I will ask this question not to stump anyone, but it is one I have not ever answered.
First, I would like to say Jesus was before any creation, He is the beginning of creation, and all was created after Him and through Him, but it was in God's plan of creation that Jesus being appointed heir to, Heb 1:1-4. Jesus was the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and in the fullness of time He was conceived, Ephesians 1:9-10. There were two Adams and Jesus is the last Adam both Adams who were men who came into this world without sin. The first sinned and the last lived perfect totally obedient to the Father.
Question, Jesus was conceived and brought forth the only begotten Son of God to die for the sins of mankind. If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted, James 1:13, but it is clear Jesus was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15 and He died shedding His blood to cover our sins.
Can God die? If not, how are our sins covered? Could the works of the devil be undone if God fulfilled the law that was made for man? The law was made for man and a man had to live without sin to fulfill it. What is the meaning of Acts 2:24 if Jesus was not a man?
Sorry to send this to you but anyone can answer, Love you brother.
God bless,
RLW
GOD blesses and shines HIS face on all who are on this platform.
January 28, 2024
Meditation that brings you to Psalms 45,especially Psalms 45:6-7.
Speaking of JESUS(Ps.45:6-7)-->In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne,O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom.(It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16, about the archangel Michael who comes first,comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)
Hebrews 1:7-And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:--> 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh,O most mighty,with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write,Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John,These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him.And he said unto me,See thou do it not:I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:worship GOD:for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)
5Thine arrows( Revelation 6:2)are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies;whereby the people fall under thee.( Revelation 11:15)
Re.11:16-17
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord GOD Almighty,which art,and wast,and art to come;because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned( 1Corinthians 15:24-27and51-55-Take a look)
Re.11:18-And the nations were angry,and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
See Hebrews 9:7-14.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
I believe the Trinity discussion is a fruitful one and there is a lot to learn from it.
I believe some has let certain doctrine consume them to the point where they break fellowship. The Trinity is just one of many.
I believe we should explore all doctrine but no doctrine should cause a hatred that has been displayed by some.
We search the scripture and let the spirit of truth do his work in our lives.
There should be an increase in fruit in our lives and love for the Brothern that is produced from above as a result of the truth providing that the spirit of Christ is in us.
God bless you Momsage.