Please pray for Annjane' O (pronounced Ann-juh-nay) to come to repentance of her selfishness around familial decisions and seek Jesus when it comes to her family as a whole and not just what "she" thinks is best. Pray that she shows legitimate concern for others when doing things and making decisions, as it not only impacts her life but may negatively impact the lives of others, especially her children. Pray that she stays out of self and in Christ Jesus our lord and savior. Pray that she asks the Holy Spirit for guidance in the name of Christ Jesus. Pray that she steps away from the ungodly people that are influencing her and diluting her view of who God is, as these people are teaching her to place herself and her will on the same level as God himself. Pray that she submits her will and her life into Jesus Christs hands. In Jesus' name Amen.
I suppose a question thread isn't kosher with a sequel. Anyway; there are many scriptures that can be used to point out each part of the TULIP acronym; for instance T-Total Depravity We could quote Jeremiah 17:9; O-Unconditional Election ( Ephesians 1:4); L-Limited Atonement ( John 10:26-27); I-Irresistable Grace ( Acts 9:3-6 the "Damascus Road" experience) and finally P-Perseverance of the Saints ( Romans 8:30).
Many of these themes are interchangeable with the verses quoted. The terminology isn't the greatest; as people can indeed grieve the Spirit as scripture indicates. I believe limited atonement is also the hardest thing to prove; I would say that "Effectual grace" is a much better term.
I wrote what I did in the first posting on purpose as many tend to have a sort of pride about which Reformer is their favorite or obsess on the subject making a doctrine be above the author and finisher of our faith Christ Himself. We can't fit our theological premise neatly with all scriptures in human understanding. I take; for example the politically incorrect stance that free will doesn't intimidate God with His predestination plans. There are distinct advantages to understanding these doctrines however.
1. It explains why those in our families and others we are close to and hear the Gospel for years never become believers.
2. It shows how God draws His elect from before a confession of faith (preserves our lives until coming to salvation) for believers.
3. It allows us to "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith" ( 2 Cor. 13:5) so that we can indeed claim His promises as something we actually possess because of a saving faith rather than "decisional regeneration" a term where people make a confession but their hearts are not in it.
I mentioned on an old posting how a small group split because God grants repentance ( 2 Tim. 2:25; etal). Some didn't want to preach the need to repent; although God grants the desire we must bear fruit and change our ways
True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).
I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
Thank you, I don't mind at all brother, your knowledge of Greek is always welcome and enlightening. If our understanding is different if we in love discuss wirh the goal of finding the true meaning we are all better and closer to God. I have learned so much from the brothers and sisters on this site. It may be a bit before I get back with you.
Chris reached out to me about my previous discussions on the Sabbath and the KJB. I had gotten frustrated with these discussions and said I was only going to correspond with my friends GiGi and Jema but that was over reacting on my part and I should have continued. We might start a discussion again or we might discuss the Trinity, which is a new topic for me, and that you might want to join in. I do believe in the Trinity just so you know. I hope you will be a part of our discussions. God Bless :)
Somewhere on this site a year or two ago I have some detailed analysis of this subject; specifically I went through the book of John as well in terms of Predestination.
I would say that book has enough clear evidence of the calling being only for those God has selected to have Christ reveal Himself to them that not much more needs to be said. The book of Romans has a lot of stuff as well which I have done studies of in the past but it is throughout the Bible. The "TULIP" acronym was never expounded on by Calvin per se; and it appears that even he may have had some issues near the end of his life about limited atonement; probably the stickiest point in the whole bunch.
First off as to Calvin himself; his attitudes in killing Silvanus for not being a Trinitarian (and also for NOT supporting infant baptism) certainly makes us call into question his faith as it states in first John "he who hates his brother is a murderer" and doesn't have eternal lilfe. For the record I am against infant baptism ironically a carry on from Catholicism that the Orthodox Presbyterian church today still holds onto with some other denominations. Martin Luthor was a heavy drinker and Hitler himself used some of his rantings against the Jews to his advantage in gaining church support of his cause (before they were persecuted themselves).
Despite these less than ideal character issues the concepts brought up in the "5 Points" have sufficient scriptural warrant for the most part in my opinion. Again; I have argued with some of my "brethren" as you put it that someone can believe all 5 points and not be saved (why they'd want to is another issue). They didn't like me for saying that; but neither did people believe my former pastor was saved since he considered himself to be a "4 and a half point Calvanist" with his issues with limited atonement.
Other issues are the terminology of each tenent. Maybe I'll include that in part two.
Thank you for reaching out to me. I'm sorry I misread your comment to S. Spencer. I did say I was only going to talk to GiGi and Jema but that was just out of frustration so if you would like to go back to the core of the matter and discuss the Sabbath again, I'd like to. I know I was having discussions with several people besides you and I , honestly, can't remember who said what. In those discussions I did realize I wasn't making myself clear on some things so I will be more clear this time. I would like to ask you, however, if I suggest another interpretation to a verse you use to support your belief, please respond with an explanation as to why my interpretation is incorrect. I don't recall a response to several points I made, it seemed to me they were just set aside so please answer my questions and concerns directly. :)
If you'd rather go to a new discussion about the Trinity, new for me, I'd like that also. I've already done some studying on it. Looking forward to communicating with you and S Spencer, also, if he decides to. God Bless :)
In looking at the Orthodox church it seems from what I am seeing it is only the Eastern Orthodox (however defined) that believes this; while others believe Christ always existed. Or perhaps it is the idea that somehow the Spirit and Christ existed within God somehow and was separated?
I looked at that term "deified" or something to that affect. I would define the new body as glorified but not God-that is disturbing.
All the power we will have in our glorified body it is due to God's provision; and all the authority in which we rule and reign with Christ. The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.
As for me; I didn't understand how my ex wife was able to marry someone in that church if they knew she was divorced from someone. I thought they were against that.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
Now lets go to that "first born from the dead". Interpretation. The first child that God got back from the dead. The rest is us, His other born again children which He took us back from death. But why does Paul say "firstborn" and not just "first"?
Rom 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Firstborn among many brethren. Jesus is the first born(again) among us, first born(again) among us from the dead, so that ""that in all things he might have the preeminence"
About the word "arche". It means begining but in grk (mod and anc) it also means "principality". ie verse 16, " whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(archai or archae, plural), or powers:". i.e the state is a principality, the police is a principality in grk
So lets go to Rev 3:14, "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning(arche) of the creation of God"
It may mean the first among creation(us, born again) but the most probable is that it means He who is over (or who has authority )the whole creation or He who created the creation. Taking into account Col 1:16 and Eph 3:9, it certainly means He who created and has authority over the whole creation.
Also why does Paul call Jesus the image of the invisible God? If the answer is that we are all images of God, then why Paul points that out about Jesus as if though it is something exceptional? And why he says "invisible"? Because Jesus is God's visible image
As far as the triune God is concerned we also may look to verses where the Spirit of God is described as a person with will, feelings, etc, thus showing that apart from Father there is at least one more person included in the divinity.Well I wouldn't like to intervene any more, I just tried to show to you various interpretations of those verses.
May I intervene in your discussion saying something about the verses in Col 1:15-18
"15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(in grk through) him(also see Ephesians 3:9), and for him:"
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence"
1. "first born of every creature", the grk says "prototokos(first born) pases(of all) ktiseos(of creation)" .___"Prototokos" comes from "protos(first)" and the verb "tikto(give birth)"___ As Chris has said it doesn't say "protoktistos" which means "first to be created".
What does Paul mean with that? Which is that creation he is refering to. There are many interpretations of that.
a. The Orthodox church believes that Jesus as a God was born by His Father before the creation of the world (see the Nicene Creed). So as a son of a father who is God He is also God. Later during the Roman times He was also born by the Spirit and Mary as a man. So He is Son of God and Son of Man. This is what they believe.
b. Other beliefs. Firstly lets see the verse in Gal 6:14-15, " For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." The grk actually says "creation" not "creature". New creation.
As you see in Col 1:18 Paul calls Jesus "first born from the dead" and he also says about Jesus "that in all things he might have the preeminence"
Taking all those into account a possible interpretation is (and this is the belief of many in my church) that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)
John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.
I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.
I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.
My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.
Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.
In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.
"Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
Prayer for protection from witchcraft attacks by my brother's girlfriend and her witch. I ask for prayer for a mighty move of God over this situation and that I will be set free from. Futher attacks from them in Lord Jesus Christ name, amen. I also ask for a job soon as I am in need of a financial miracle in Lord Jesus Christ name, amen and I come into agreement with everyone who will ever agree or connect to this prayer in Lord Jesus Christ name, amen and thank you for your support and prayers.
Please pray for my family to be saved, healed and delivered. Please pray for my children and my sister. Please pray for Israel. Thank you for your ministry.
I hope things improve soon for you . I know from reading the Bible that God expects us to take care of each other and not to turn our eyes away when we see some one in need of help . I hope that God gives you all that you need even if people don't .
It does help . I thought that myself about the skins that God made for them . If He made them then do you think that He killed the lamb ? This all seems to point toward the future when God allows His Son to be killed to cover our sins . The Jews had to take the lamb into their homes a bit like a pet I think , they might have grown attached to it if there were children in the house . They might have been sad to kill it . So many things happen more than once in the Bible but just in slightly different ways .
With regards to the tags we shall examine the significance of 5. 'The twelve apostles of the Lamb as well as every saint redeemed from the earth are considered as one with the Lamb. In the OT the Law of Moses stipulated, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep."(Ex.22:1). The rationale is that beast is man's livelihood. So man and ox is counted as one. The same rule applies to those who have conformed to the death of Christ in order to win Christ. "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" (Ph.3:10)
In the divine Will the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was an emblem. The Lamb of God opened the way for many sons of God to be counted as one with the Lamb, so the throne of God and of the Lamb establish the rationale for Jubilee year on earth as well as in heaven. The gospel in multiples of 12 created the scale which instruct how we should walk on the earth. Without abiding in Christ and doing the perfect will of God, Many are called but few are chosen. Be not deceived by diverse doctrine of men.
"And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."(21:16)
Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:101 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
"And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
Firstly it is the angel who is a fellow servant who is measuring.It is faith which is signified by the golden reed. "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb./ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." (vv.14-15). The 12 apostles of the Lamb are the same on earth were associates of Jesus Christ. This is New Jerusalem, the throne of which is now the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1)
John was in the spirit so he is being given a preview of things which must shortly come to pass, while the guid, an angel is nimself in the world of the Spirit. "And I John saw these things, and heard them.... I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things./Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." (22:8-9). Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel.
Jesus Christ is the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. So the single yardstick the angel uses is according to the measure of a man, that is of the angel. The heresy of individualism, American brand of bold initiatives upon which megachurches and the corporate model of Evangelicalism relies is not from God. The rule of God applies. "And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."(Ex.16:18). Abiding in Christ what is gathered in the world of Spirit follows the same rule.
The measuring reed is faith and the Gospel is one, within which 'the lame takes the prey.'
May we be be prayerful for our leadership in DC and all the local authority YOU have ordained and placed in offices. Romans 13:1-3
LORD, bless YOUR saints to be powerful witnesses unto the lost and hard hearted.
GOD to shine HIS face on the works of our hands, and our prayers as we worship and praise CHRIST JESUS daily.
January 30, 2024
Many of these themes are interchangeable with the verses quoted. The terminology isn't the greatest; as people can indeed grieve the Spirit as scripture indicates. I believe limited atonement is also the hardest thing to prove; I would say that "Effectual grace" is a much better term.
I wrote what I did in the first posting on purpose as many tend to have a sort of pride about which Reformer is their favorite or obsess on the subject making a doctrine be above the author and finisher of our faith Christ Himself. We can't fit our theological premise neatly with all scriptures in human understanding. I take; for example the politically incorrect stance that free will doesn't intimidate God with His predestination plans. There are distinct advantages to understanding these doctrines however.
1. It explains why those in our families and others we are close to and hear the Gospel for years never become believers.
2. It shows how God draws His elect from before a confession of faith (preserves our lives until coming to salvation) for believers.
3. It allows us to "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith" ( 2 Cor. 13:5) so that we can indeed claim His promises as something we actually possess because of a saving faith rather than "decisional regeneration" a term where people make a confession but their hearts are not in it.
I mentioned on an old posting how a small group split because God grants repentance ( 2 Tim. 2:25; etal). Some didn't want to preach the need to repent; although God grants the desire we must bear fruit and change our ways
True, we may not conclusively know the Form He took in Heaven, whether as the Word within God's Person (just as the Spirit in God was sent out), or as another Form outside of God yet closely connected to Him. The issue here is, whether Jesus existed (in some Form) prior to His appearing on Earth. If not, what do we do with such verses as given here? Can we really reinterpret them in any other way? Is that even possible? And we could add Micah 5:2 (a coming Ruler not going forth from Bethlehem, but from eternity), John 3:13 (Who was in Heaven, coming down from Heaven), John 6:38 (come from Heaven), John 8:56-58 (Jesus existed even before Abraham), Philippians 2:5-11 (His equality with God, but laid it aside to come & serve man), & Hebrews 1:1-3 (through Jesus God made the worlds).
I've understood your comments on Jesus' Life & Death as per His earthly sojourn. But unless we can understand Who this Jesus really is (i.e. whether a Creation of God to fulfil His Plans on Earth, or God Himself, He Who was from the beginning), then the substance of this Mystery can never be resolved. That is why textual examination is so important, especially when we can see other Scriptures that confirm our understanding. I apologize for not referring to your other comments (e.g. the soul/spirit, firstborn, etc), but wanted to keep this short & focus on Jesus before His appearance on Earth. GBU.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Good night and God bless.
Thank you, I certainly will!!
I have a busy week schedule Monday through Friday but I post and reply periodically.
I mostly engage on weekends.
There is trinity thread going on as we speak.
You might find it interesting.
I will be reading this one from the stands.
God bless.
Thank you, I don't mind at all brother, your knowledge of Greek is always welcome and enlightening. If our understanding is different if we in love discuss wirh the goal of finding the true meaning we are all better and closer to God. I have learned so much from the brothers and sisters on this site. It may be a bit before I get back with you.
God bless,
RLW
Chris reached out to me about my previous discussions on the Sabbath and the KJB. I had gotten frustrated with these discussions and said I was only going to correspond with my friends GiGi and Jema but that was over reacting on my part and I should have continued. We might start a discussion again or we might discuss the Trinity, which is a new topic for me, and that you might want to join in. I do believe in the Trinity just so you know. I hope you will be a part of our discussions. God Bless :)
I would say that book has enough clear evidence of the calling being only for those God has selected to have Christ reveal Himself to them that not much more needs to be said. The book of Romans has a lot of stuff as well which I have done studies of in the past but it is throughout the Bible. The "TULIP" acronym was never expounded on by Calvin per se; and it appears that even he may have had some issues near the end of his life about limited atonement; probably the stickiest point in the whole bunch.
First off as to Calvin himself; his attitudes in killing Silvanus for not being a Trinitarian (and also for NOT supporting infant baptism) certainly makes us call into question his faith as it states in first John "he who hates his brother is a murderer" and doesn't have eternal lilfe. For the record I am against infant baptism ironically a carry on from Catholicism that the Orthodox Presbyterian church today still holds onto with some other denominations. Martin Luthor was a heavy drinker and Hitler himself used some of his rantings against the Jews to his advantage in gaining church support of his cause (before they were persecuted themselves).
Despite these less than ideal character issues the concepts brought up in the "5 Points" have sufficient scriptural warrant for the most part in my opinion. Again; I have argued with some of my "brethren" as you put it that someone can believe all 5 points and not be saved (why they'd want to is another issue). They didn't like me for saying that; but neither did people believe my former pastor was saved since he considered himself to be a "4 and a half point Calvanist" with his issues with limited atonement.
Other issues are the terminology of each tenent. Maybe I'll include that in part two.
If you'd rather go to a new discussion about the Trinity, new for me, I'd like that also. I've already done some studying on it. Looking forward to communicating with you and S Spencer, also, if he decides to. God Bless :)
I looked at that term "deified" or something to that affect. I would define the new body as glorified but not God-that is disturbing.
All the power we will have in our glorified body it is due to God's provision; and all the authority in which we rule and reign with Christ. The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.
As for me; I didn't understand how my ex wife was able to marry someone in that church if they knew she was divorced from someone. I thought they were against that.
I will get back to you about those prophesies in Daniel, hopefuly tomorrow. Have a blessed night.
Thanks for your reply to my comment.
I will keep it short since we have had those discussions before and we know what each one of us believe.
I noticed that you believe that when a human person receives the fullness of the Spirit somehow they aquire divine characteristics as if though they are Gods themselves. ie omnipresence, speak all languages, hear millions of people simultaneously. Well there are some churches that actually believe that we will become sort of Gods. The Ortodox church is one of those.
Also Jema (why is she gone? I actually liked very much her encouraging comments,I will miss them) in her reply to me said that we will become something sort of Gods when we will be dressed up with our spiritual body.
Although there isn't any revelation from God about the state we will be in Heaven, I still find it very hard to believe that. If that was true then even angels would had been sort of Gods. Well I don't know Richard so I am going to put my hand on my mouth and keep silent. GBU
Now lets go to that "first born from the dead". Interpretation. The first child that God got back from the dead. The rest is us, His other born again children which He took us back from death. But why does Paul say "firstborn" and not just "first"?
Rom 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Firstborn among many brethren. Jesus is the first born(again) among us, first born(again) among us from the dead, so that ""that in all things he might have the preeminence"
About the word "arche". It means begining but in grk (mod and anc) it also means "principality". ie verse 16, " whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities(archai or archae, plural), or powers:". i.e the state is a principality, the police is a principality in grk
So lets go to Rev 3:14, "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning(arche) of the creation of God"
It may mean the first among creation(us, born again) but the most probable is that it means He who is over (or who has authority )the whole creation or He who created the creation. Taking into account Col 1:16 and Eph 3:9, it certainly means He who created and has authority over the whole creation.
Also why does Paul call Jesus the image of the invisible God? If the answer is that we are all images of God, then why Paul points that out about Jesus as if though it is something exceptional? And why he says "invisible"? Because Jesus is God's visible image
As far as the triune God is concerned we also may look to verses where the Spirit of God is described as a person with will, feelings, etc, thus showing that apart from Father there is at least one more person included in the divinity.Well I wouldn't like to intervene any more, I just tried to show to you various interpretations of those verses.
Hope I haven't confused you.
May I intervene in your discussion saying something about the verses in Col 1:15-18
"15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(in grk through) him(also see Ephesians 3:9), and for him:"
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence"
1. "first born of every creature", the grk says "prototokos(first born) pases(of all) ktiseos(of creation)" .___"Prototokos" comes from "protos(first)" and the verb "tikto(give birth)"___ As Chris has said it doesn't say "protoktistos" which means "first to be created".
What does Paul mean with that? Which is that creation he is refering to. There are many interpretations of that.
a. The Orthodox church believes that Jesus as a God was born by His Father before the creation of the world (see the Nicene Creed). So as a son of a father who is God He is also God. Later during the Roman times He was also born by the Spirit and Mary as a man. So He is Son of God and Son of Man. This is what they believe.
b. Other beliefs. Firstly lets see the verse in Gal 6:14-15, " For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." The grk actually says "creation" not "creature". New creation.
As you see in Col 1:18 Paul calls Jesus "first born from the dead" and he also says about Jesus "that in all things he might have the preeminence"
Taking all those into account a possible interpretation is (and this is the belief of many in my church) that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)
See part 2.
Part 4
I will make this the last and probably short.
John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.
I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.
God bless,
RLW
Part 3
I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.
My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4 Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.
Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.
In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.
"Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.
See part 4 sorry I am slow.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
With regards to the tags we shall examine the significance of 5. 'The twelve apostles of the Lamb as well as every saint redeemed from the earth are considered as one with the Lamb. In the OT the Law of Moses stipulated, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep."(Ex.22:1). The rationale is that beast is man's livelihood. So man and ox is counted as one. The same rule applies to those who have conformed to the death of Christ in order to win Christ. "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" (Ph.3:10)
In the divine Will the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world was an emblem. The Lamb of God opened the way for many sons of God to be counted as one with the Lamb, so the throne of God and of the Lamb establish the rationale for Jubilee year on earth as well as in heaven. The gospel in multiples of 12 created the scale which instruct how we should walk on the earth. Without abiding in Christ and doing the perfect will of God, Many are called but few are chosen. Be not deceived by diverse doctrine of men.
"And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."(21:16)
Part 1
Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:10 1 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
See part 2.
God bless,
RLW
"And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
Firstly it is the angel who is a fellow servant who is measuring.It is faith which is signified by the golden reed. "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb./ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof." (vv.14-15). The 12 apostles of the Lamb are the same on earth were associates of Jesus Christ. This is New Jerusalem, the throne of which is now the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1)
John was in the spirit so he is being given a preview of things which must shortly come to pass, while the guid, an angel is nimself in the world of the Spirit. "And I John saw these things, and heard them.... I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things./Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book." (22:8-9). Saints redeemed from the earth are interchangeable because new earth knows no John or Andrew but is under the generic name an angel.
Jesus Christ is the Man component in the Fellowship of God with Man. So the single yardstick the angel uses is according to the measure of a man, that is of the angel. The heresy of individualism, American brand of bold initiatives upon which megachurches and the corporate model of Evangelicalism relies is not from God. The rule of God applies. "And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating."(Ex.16:18). Abiding in Christ what is gathered in the world of Spirit follows the same rule.
The measuring reed is faith and the Gospel is one, within which 'the lame takes the prey.'