The material things are figures of spiritual things,the parables of our Lord JESUS are good examples.By the way,the letter kills,the Spirit gives life-2Co.3:6.The angel of the Lord,John the Baptist,said:he that is of the earth is earthly,and speaketh of the earth-Jo.3:31.
This says he that has the key of David,he that opens,and no man shutteth;and shuts,and no man openeth;
The heavens and the earth,which are now(the 1st and 2nd heavens,the 3rd heaven will be established from now on),by the same Word(Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,self-executing)are kept in store,reserved unto FIRE against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men,the heavens(the 1st and 2nd heavens,the 3rd will be established from now on)shall pass away with a great noise,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up- 2Peter 3:7and 10 and Matthew 10:28 combined with Isaiah 33:10-14,take a look.
So,our thinking can not be from a mere human perspective,but from GOD's perspective revealed in His Word,you know the Word is GOD, GOD Himself,self-executing.JESUS made it clear saying to the Jews:Mat.23:33-Ye serpents,ye generation of vipers,how can ye escape the damnation of hell?->the hell's fire,of course- Matthew 10:28.Take a look.
Matthew 25:31-34&41
31When the Son of man shall come in His glory,and all the holy angels with him,then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations:and he shall separate them one from another,as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand,but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,Come,ye blessed of my Father,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,Depart from me,ye cursed,into everlasting fire,prepared for the Devil and his angels:->these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
Please pray for my daughter Valeria. She has been going through so much mentally. Her mother does not allow her to attend church, threw her bibles to the trash, and does not allow her to pray. That I may obtain full custody. That God may place people in her path at school, brothers and sisters in Christ visit at home, and may the Holy Spirit touch her.
That is the way he "David" described it his view. This view he described is Limited Atonement.
He made it very clear, unfortunately that's where you came in and agreed with him.
And the view you described is that "the love offering of the Lamb of God and INVITATION of the free gift is limited by God, and Christ sacrificial death on the cross wasn't for all, and his foreknowledge had no part in declaring his elect.
Gigi, I believe God knows who will come to him, However the invitation goes out to everyone.
Whosoever thirst, come!!
That is what was being debated in the beginning of the debate.
2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
We also are told to examine ourselves. 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
And you are right we feed on the SINCERE "undeceitful" milk of the word that ye may grow thereby: 1 Petee 2:2. (Truth)
NO ONE knows it all but as we learn we share.
WE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF OUR CALLING;
There is one Spirit that we are baptized by. (We are Identified with Christ and should be Identified with one another.
Ephesians 4:4-5 reads "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
However there are those who oppose the faith and has done so since the beginning.
Jude speaks of this in his writings.
Paul says in Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; AND AVOID THEM.
Jaz, I don't know it all, very little in fact when considering the great teacher's I benefit off of and great teacher's I have run across on this site.
I could not help but point out what you state as some doctrine of man as something sacred is worth dragging in. You write. "Universalism teaches that every human will be saved whether they believe or accept Christ or not." Universalism smells of human sweat and his play on words. Why drag in some one else's leftover as though it merits a debate? God gave you indwelling Spirit since your love for the word no one shall dispute. Be careful how you connect verses in the word of God. In whichever way you make out of various passage the simple yardstick is: God shall never do contrary to his holiness. I know you are intended to fortify yourself with more solid food than milk, so let God work with you more effectively.
The Spirit cites the coming of the messenger in.v.3. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." We know from the Gospel of John that he recognized Jesus by same Word that marked him before his birth for his ministry. So what does he say, "And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"( John 1:36). The Spirit in v.9 rounds it off where the exhortation of John did come from. "O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings," The Gospel tells how Jesus was pointed out to him from the crowd in a public place. So the Spirit the expression "Behold your God!"is tied up with the Advent of Jesus Christ. Zion is established by God in the 'now' and in heaven. (Is.28:16). Jerusalem claimed by David from Jabusites is the city of David (2 Sam.5:6-10). Jerusalem and Zion founded in heaven is the holy city of God open to all saints. "Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice."(Ps.50:5). In short the first 9 verses refer to his second appearance in mid-air: "Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."(v.10)
It is further supported by v.5. " And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."(Re.1:7) All kindreds of the earth is what Isaiah refers to as 'All flesh shall see it together'.
vv.1-2 is pendent on the above. "For she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." Nevertheless a remnant shall be allowed. Significant is the term" double"- the kingdom is taken away from them. Re.21:25.
Thanks for that information Brother . To be honest , I don't worry too much about what other people believe . A Christian to me is someone who believes in the Holy One of Israel as the only everlasting God and in His Son Jesus Christ ( born of a virgin by the power of God's Holy Spirit ) and Christ's sinless life , willing death and resurrection to eternal life , and who also reads the Bible regularly to enhance their understanding and who prays to God , through the mediation of Jesus Christ our Sinless High Priest .
The Bible is a big book , we shall not understand every single part of it in this life , it's given to us by God to help us , to help us to grow closer to Him by learning about Him and His ways and His purpose and His promises and His Son . If we are reading it everyday with open hearts and minds then that is what will happen . We will GROW , growth sometimes requires us to change , to change what we think and believe as we keep LEARNING . This is my goal as a Christian , to keep learning and growing , hopefully closet to God through His Living Word . This is enough to keep me busy , if I can help someone else on their Christian journey , I will . This site to me , is part of that . Hopefully . May God bless you and all of us on here as we try to grow ourselves , and help each other to do so .
You make a very good point that I can't and won't argue with . I have always thought that the reason Michal did not have children to David ( 2nd Samuel chapter 6 ) was not because of her reaction to David's dancing , even though that's what the narrative states . I think that it was because if David had had children with her then they would have also been Saul's grandchildren . I think it can be very easy for us to just read the words in the Bible without thinking too much about them from a human perspective , I always try to put myself in others shoes and see how I would feel or what I might think if I was there . That means that I might get things wrong sometimes but sometimes I think I can see beyond the words . The life of David is a bit like a really well written soap opera , full of twists and turns , but you are of course correct , as David himself says : God directs his feet . God bless you too .
You never say "accept Christ" because the Bible never tells us to accept Him. It does tell us to receive Him. To me, to accept just means to mentally agree with something or someone.
The v. 14 quoted from Daniel informs us that Universalism goes with the truth Jesus Christ as the Saviour of the whole world. Salvator mundi. Whosoever approaches him is received as Jesus on the cross revealed. God called everyone but left it to his Son. There are no exceptions with the Holy One. "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."(Dan.7:27). Both heaven and the earth as indicated by the two great lights in the everlasting covenant.
"To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
In order to understand the role of nations let us first understand what God is. "He is omnipresent" so Time is zero. So is space. In short His kingdom which we call as everlasting to everlasting is in the "now". There is no comparison with our earth time. The Spirit has however set the earth time in relation to His nature,- Holiness giving us the Person of Jesus Christ. His earthly ministry makes us relate our nature in step with His nature. We shall illustrate this in terms of our heartbeats We have 60 to 100 while the heartbeats of a blue whale is 1.8 seconds. A rodent say a shrew has 1500 beats per minute. We synchronise our lives on the basis where every terrestrial creature can be set on as single standard accordingly. It is thus the Spirit has set Jesus Christ as the Way because he ascended to heaven and Jesus Christ as the truth since he came from heaven to set an example. It is thus we set Israel as an example which means nothing in terms of heaven. So when Jesus says, "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." (Matt.15:13). Without Jesus there is no way a nation can be counted in the sight of God
"Now is the day of Salvation" is in context of the grace brought to the world by Jesus. That ye receive not the grace of God in vain.(2 Co.6:1-2) Nature of God his holiness has been revealed. That which is a quality associated with God mercy or grace is what the tern "now" represents for us. By the same token when Jesus Christ says, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."( Luke 12:32), this is the everlasting kingdom revealed to Daniel in a night vision, "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." (Dan.7:14)
"Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store until this day, shall be carried to Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the Lord."
These words of Isaiah must have come as a let down to King Hezekiah who having showed showed the glory of his house,- all the war trophies, peace offerings and tributes brought from other nations to his guest, naturally he expected to be complimented. The illustrious names of David and Solomon were 'treasures' indeed. A man born with a silver spoon in his mouth think it is glorious to dine off the golden plate. The king was a show off. Now it fell to the prophet to bring the news of disaster. Before we move on to the topic of nations we need focus on the glory of nations.
What glory sinful men calls is defied in the sight of God. What is the glory of superpowers? The banana wars brought gold into the treasury but what is the mess piling up south of the border? History of nations is a sordid tale of greed and violence and the more glory they seek the deeper they find stuck in mire. The same prophet speak of the glory of Zion instead. It is what the expression" unto this day" in the key verse leads to.
"Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee./The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD." (Is.60:5-6) This spiritual kingdom is established by God before the worlds began. It is to which the word of God exhorts us in this exquisite line, "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."(Is.40: 28-31)
Thank you for those words. I do agree that salvation is offered to all through Christ, but not all will receive Him. Romans 10:8-10 which you have shared is a promise to everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, that they will, not might, but they will be saved.
But yes, there has to be a response. A person must receive Christ. Please know that I never say "accept Christ" because the Bible never tells us to accept Him. It does tell us to receive Him. To me, to accept just means to mentally agree with something or someone. A person must receive Christ!
As far as there having to be a response from us, did you know that we are saints by calling?
In some of Paul's letters, we see the phrase "called to be saints," and the words "to be" are in italics. It's because the words "to be" were added. We are not called to be saints. We are called saints. It is God who called us, and we simply responded to the call!
And yes, I agree with you on the future restoration of the Jewish/Hebrew people. I believe that when Christ returns, every Jew alive on this earth will then realize that He is their Messiah that they crucified, and they will be saved!
Yes, you already answered and stated your position. We came to an agreement and I have moved on and forgotten about because I thought we were done with that conversation. But since you are bringing it back up, please allow me to reshare your exact words to SeanPaul:
You said to him, "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians and I agree with you for those you have been made to see the truth in this."
Now you are telling me that I "really didn't understand" what you were saying, but your statement was quite clear to me as to what you were agreeing with, or at least what you thought was a "good point."
And no, I did not think that you agreed with someone who said Christians who use bible versions other than the KJB are in sin because that's not what you said. What you seemed to agree with was that these people were not true Christians if they read any other Bible than the KJV.
Please reread your exact words which I have quoted. I'm not sure how else to interpret what you said. If that's not what you meant and you simply made a mistake by telling SeanPaul that he made a good point about those who read different bibles not being true Christians, then that's fine, let's move on!
Was David doing all those things you have eluded to? was Solomon or Saul or any other doing those works, or was it God doing it through them?
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and God doth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Jeremiah 51:20-24 .... thou art my battle axe and weapons of war ......
Isaiah 10:15 .... Shall the axe boost himself against him that heweth therewith?.....
Firstly, heaven ( Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21) is not the physical space of Universe called materially in human language as sky.
With the establishment of the 3rd heaven- Isaiah 51:16, Luke 20:35-36, 2Corinthians 12:2 combined with Revelation 4:1, the 1st and the 2nd heavens THAT WERE ESTABLISHED until this current time( Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21) being on FIRE (GOD is a consuming FIRE- Isaiah 33:10-14) shall be DISSOLVED (something similar to an implosion) as was prophesied. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of person ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? 2Peter 3:10.
Actually until this current time were established two DISTINCTS heavens, and from now on will be established or planted ( Isaiah 51:16) the DISTINCT 3rd heaven for 1000 years, no more than 1000 years, that is the Kingdom of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18, incidentally Satan also ascended to the 1st and 2nd heavens- Revelation 12:3-and still is in heaven for now, but he will not ascend to the 3rd heaven, never will, on the contrary, he will be cast into the bottomless pit, and WHEN the thousand years(of the existence of the 3rd heaven) are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and there will be another battle against him and his hosts, and fire will come down from GOD out of heaven, and will devoure them. After that, GOD will establish the environment of heaven of the heavens (an heaven above of the first three distincts heavens that were before).
That's what we interpret about heavens within the Scriptures. There are three that bear record (testify) in heaven, the Father (GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person): and these three are One. 1John 5:7
(Part 4, and final part): I'm not going to promise this time as I've learned my lesson!
Q. If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611?
Q. Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611. What the revisions? Some say that the revisions and changes are just grammatical errors and such. But with God being perfect, would there be grammatical errors at all if He wrote it?
Momsage, I do appreciate your questions. I also appreciate and respect your zeal for the King James Bible, even though we don't agree on who wrote it and its complete accuracy. It is still the bible I choose to study. I also read the Greek text (Textus Receptus) and there are differences that I have found from the Greek text in comparison to the KJB. Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses if the original text uses a different word?
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
Q. If they believed the bible was the written word of God, why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language?
A. Again, not knowing their motive, I cannot answer this one. But if these men truly believed the bible was the written word of God, I would have to believe that there would be no need to for them to even "make simple changes to the language."
Q. Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?
A. Once again, I have no way of knowing what their motives were.
Q. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not?
A. I'm sure no one would find any joy in that! If I were to read the preface of any bible and it said that the word written herein may be what God has said, or may not be what He said, the preface would be as far as I would read.
Q. How do we know that they (JW's, Mormons, Buddhists) don't have the truth?
A. If what they teach goes against what Paul preached and taught, their "truth" is to be rejected. ( Galatians 1:8-9)
Q. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. Whatever suits us.
A. With all the various religions out there (too many to count), it's already been done! The reason why we have so many religions and denominations are because man cannot agree on what God's word says. Many of us here (including you and I) read the KJB but we disagree on what it says in certain places. Why is that? It's because English is such a general language. Hebrew also is a general language. But not so with Greek. Greek is such an exact language to where it makes it almost impossible to come up with different conclusions as to what the text is saying.
Well, I think you have somewhat misunderstood me about what I believe. Your comment that I "don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors" is simply an assumption on your part. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion from my comments, but I can tell you that I do believe the ancient writings (Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic) have been handed down without error.
I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error. However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version. I will attempt to answer your questions, but I also have a few of my own.
First, to answer your questions:
Q. If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
A. According to the definition of the word version, I don't believe God wrote any version at all. However, we do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
Q. How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written?
A. Human beings know right from wrong before they learn to read. As for us believers, it is God's Spirit that puts it on our hearts to know right from wrong. We don't need a bible to know right from wrong. Those in OT times didn't have a bible to read. They knew right from wrong.
Q. Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB?
A. Unless you can tell me which authors you are speaking of and share with me their exact words and motives, I am not sure how to answer this question.
Universalism does not teach that every human will be saved because the sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the whole world.
Universalism teaches that every human will be saved whether they believe or accept Christ or not.
Everyone gets saved no matter what.
The bible is what teaches that Jesus sacrifice was for the whole world.
John 3:14-16
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Just as anyone in the camp beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.in Numbers 21:9, Anyone who trust in the Lamb of God shall also live.
Here's more connecting verses.
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the "SIN" of the world.
You noticed I put emphasis on the word SIN here in this verse. It's singular!
It is the penalty of sin that is being spoken of here that was brought in the world by Adam's transgression mentioned in Romans. Romans 5:12-15.
If the penalty of sin was imputed to All men then the Love offering and sacrifice was for all men.
Drop down to Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.
John again.
1 John 2:2 states "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
More about David's cunning at getting what he wants by manipulation , in 2nd Samuel ch 17 v 25 , Absalom makes his own biological cousin , Amasa ,captain of the host , once Absalom's rebellion is quashed and David is back as the King , he demotes Joab and makes Amasa his nephew captain of his host . Again I'm guessing that David would have known how Joab would react to this and do his dirty work for him . It wouldn't look good for David to kill his own nephew so he enrages Joab , in the best way he knows how and sits back knowing what Joab will do about that . In 1st Kings Ch 2 v 1-9 , David instructs Solomon to kill all those people who he himself would have liked to have killed but it wasn't expedient for him to have done so . Joab is David's puppet , it started with Uriah and David believes he can manipulate Joab any way he wants to and for a very long time Joab is faithful .
David was a man , a man of war and passion . Clever , cunning and manipulative . A true servant of God , full of love and zeal for God and a determination to serve God to the best of his faith and privilege and responsibilities . For me , he had the edge over Solomon because he only married one strange wife , an Egyptian lady and I'm guessing this was a political marriage and although he had many wives he didn't allow them to turn his heart away from God . The Kingdom of Israel under Solomon may be a foreshadow of the Kingdom to come but it is marred by Solomon allowing himself to be led astray . In his writings he often blames women for the downfall of men but his own lust and weakness is to blame and I'm sure he eventually recognised this , judging by his heartfelt repentance in Ecclesiastes .
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter : Fear God and keep His commandments : for this is the whole duty of man . I find David's life fascinating , he's so very human and he loves God so very much .
Yes ! That a great verse . I'm assuming that 3 different scribes penned the books of Samuel , the books of Kings and the books of Chronicles . Each of them may have brought their own political and social biases with them , which is only human .
Whoever penned that verse was ignoring David's failure to punish his own son , who raped David's own daughter , according to God's laws .
One glaring inconsistency concerns what happened to Saul's body and how David reacted to what happened , depending on which book you are reading . In 1st Samuel chapter 31 verses 11-13 we read what the valiant men of Jabesh-Gilead did . In 2nd Samuel chapter 2 verses 5-7 we get David's favourable response to their actions .
Let's jump on to 2nd Samuel chapter 21 , a very interesting chapter all round but let's go straight to verse 12 , where it seems a different attitude prevails .
About chapter 21. It is another example of how David manipulates the situation in order to circumvent the promise that he made to Saul in 1st Samuel chapter 24 verses 21+22 . In 2nd Samuel ch 2 v 8 we discover that Abner is Saul's biological cousin and Ch 2 and 3 give us an account of what went on between Joab and Abner (Saul's cousin ) . It seems to me that Joab is right in his estimation of Abner's character and motives but David will have none of it , he treats Abner as a friend , in my opinion he knows full well how Joab will react and behave in this situation , in fact he's counting on Joab to do what he knows he can't do because of his promise to Saul . My theory can be backed up by David's behaviour in 2nd Samuel ch 21 v 1-11. He appears to condone human sacrifice as he arranges the murders of Saul's two sons and five grandsons on the pretext of appeasing the Gibeonites , who aren't even of Israel . Just what David wanted to do but could not because of his oath . Mephibosheth is the last son of Saul and he's a cripple , David keeps a close eye on him and his only son Micha who is mentioned only once .
Hi David0921: This is what I understand you to believe: that if God didn't choose me as one of the elect before I was born that when I die I will go to hell. God Bless :)
This says he that has the key of David,he that opens,and no man shutteth;and shuts,and no man openeth;
The heavens and the earth,which are now(the 1st and 2nd heavens,the 3rd heaven will be established from now on),by the same Word(Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,self-executing)are kept in store,reserved unto FIRE against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men,the heavens(the 1st and 2nd heavens,the 3rd will be established from now on)shall pass away with a great noise,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up- 2Peter 3:7and 10 and Matthew 10:28 combined with Isaiah 33:10-14,take a look.
So,our thinking can not be from a mere human perspective,but from GOD's perspective revealed in His Word,you know the Word is GOD, GOD Himself,self-executing.JESUS made it clear saying to the Jews:Mat.23:33-Ye serpents,ye generation of vipers,how can ye escape the damnation of hell?->the hell's fire,of course- Matthew 10:28.Take a look.
Matthew 25:31-34&41
31When the Son of man shall come in His glory,and all the holy angels with him,then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations:and he shall separate them one from another,as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand,but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,Come,ye blessed of my Father,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,Depart from me,ye cursed,into everlasting fire,prepared for the Devil and his angels:->these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
I need to edit my response.
I ran together a few paragraphs.
Here's how it should read.
"Yes Gigi,
That is the way he "David" described it his view. This view he described is Limited Atonement.
He made it very clear, unfortunately that's where you came in and agreed with him.
And the view you described is that "the love offering of the Lamb of God and INVITATION of the free gift is limited by God, and Christ sacrificial death on the cross wasn't for all, and his foreknowledge had no part in declaring his elect.
Gigi, I believe God knows who will come to him, However the invitation goes out to everyone.
Whosoever thirst, come!!
That is what was being debated in the beginning of the debate.
God bless.
To sum it up, Christianity is a Birth from above.
We are led by Christ Spirit from within.
We are the body of Christ.
We present him, Not ourselves.
2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
We also are told to examine ourselves. 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
And you are right we feed on the SINCERE "undeceitful" milk of the word that ye may grow thereby: 1 Petee 2:2. (Truth)
NO ONE knows it all but as we learn we share.
WE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF OUR CALLING;
There is one Spirit that we are baptized by. (We are Identified with Christ and should be Identified with one another.
Ephesians 4:4-5 reads "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
However there are those who oppose the faith and has done so since the beginning.
Jude speaks of this in his writings.
Paul says in Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; AND AVOID THEM.
Jaz, I don't know it all, very little in fact when considering the great teacher's I benefit off of and great teacher's I have run across on this site.
But I defend the truth with what little I have.
God bless you my friend.
You are right.
God shall never do contrary to his holiness!
My point exactly.
God bless.
I could not help but point out what you state as some doctrine of man as something sacred is worth dragging in. You write. "Universalism teaches that every human will be saved whether they believe or accept Christ or not." Universalism smells of human sweat and his play on words. Why drag in some one else's leftover as though it merits a debate? God gave you indwelling Spirit since your love for the word no one shall dispute. Be careful how you connect verses in the word of God. In whichever way you make out of various passage the simple yardstick is: God shall never do contrary to his holiness. I know you are intended to fortify yourself with more solid food than milk, so let God work with you more effectively.
The Spirit cites the coming of the messenger in.v.3. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." We know from the Gospel of John that he recognized Jesus by same Word that marked him before his birth for his ministry. So what does he say, "And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"( John 1:36). The Spirit in v.9 rounds it off where the exhortation of John did come from. "O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings," The Gospel tells how Jesus was pointed out to him from the crowd in a public place. So the Spirit the expression "Behold your God!"is tied up with the Advent of Jesus Christ. Zion is established by God in the 'now' and in heaven. (Is.28:16). Jerusalem claimed by David from Jabusites is the city of David (2 Sam.5:6-10). Jerusalem and Zion founded in heaven is the holy city of God open to all saints. "Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice."(Ps.50:5). In short the first 9 verses refer to his second appearance in mid-air: "Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."(v.10)
It is further supported by v.5. " And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."(Re.1:7) All kindreds of the earth is what Isaiah refers to as 'All flesh shall see it together'.
vv.1-2 is pendent on the above. "For she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." Nevertheless a remnant shall be allowed. Significant is the term" double"- the kingdom is taken away from them. Re.21:25.
The Bible is a big book , we shall not understand every single part of it in this life , it's given to us by God to help us , to help us to grow closer to Him by learning about Him and His ways and His purpose and His promises and His Son . If we are reading it everyday with open hearts and minds then that is what will happen . We will GROW , growth sometimes requires us to change , to change what we think and believe as we keep LEARNING . This is my goal as a Christian , to keep learning and growing , hopefully closet to God through His Living Word . This is enough to keep me busy , if I can help someone else on their Christian journey , I will . This site to me , is part of that . Hopefully . May God bless you and all of us on here as we try to grow ourselves , and help each other to do so .
You stated;
You never say "accept Christ" because the Bible never tells us to accept Him. It does tell us to receive Him. To me, to accept just means to mentally agree with something or someone.
I immediately see what you are saying!
Huge difference!
God bless you.
"To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One."
In order to understand the role of nations let us first understand what God is. "He is omnipresent" so Time is zero. So is space. In short His kingdom which we call as everlasting to everlasting is in the "now". There is no comparison with our earth time. The Spirit has however set the earth time in relation to His nature,- Holiness giving us the Person of Jesus Christ. His earthly ministry makes us relate our nature in step with His nature. We shall illustrate this in terms of our heartbeats We have 60 to 100 while the heartbeats of a blue whale is 1.8 seconds. A rodent say a shrew has 1500 beats per minute. We synchronise our lives on the basis where every terrestrial creature can be set on as single standard accordingly. It is thus the Spirit has set Jesus Christ as the Way because he ascended to heaven and Jesus Christ as the truth since he came from heaven to set an example. It is thus we set Israel as an example which means nothing in terms of heaven. So when Jesus says, "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." (Matt.15:13). Without Jesus there is no way a nation can be counted in the sight of God
"Now is the day of Salvation" is in context of the grace brought to the world by Jesus. That ye receive not the grace of God in vain.(2 Co.6:1-2) Nature of God his holiness has been revealed. That which is a quality associated with God mercy or grace is what the tern "now" represents for us. By the same token when Jesus Christ says, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."( Luke 12:32), this is the everlasting kingdom revealed to Daniel in a night vision, "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." (Dan.7:14)
"Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store until this day, shall be carried to Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the Lord."
These words of Isaiah must have come as a let down to King Hezekiah who having showed showed the glory of his house,- all the war trophies, peace offerings and tributes brought from other nations to his guest, naturally he expected to be complimented. The illustrious names of David and Solomon were 'treasures' indeed. A man born with a silver spoon in his mouth think it is glorious to dine off the golden plate. The king was a show off. Now it fell to the prophet to bring the news of disaster. Before we move on to the topic of nations we need focus on the glory of nations.
What glory sinful men calls is defied in the sight of God. What is the glory of superpowers? The banana wars brought gold into the treasury but what is the mess piling up south of the border? History of nations is a sordid tale of greed and violence and the more glory they seek the deeper they find stuck in mire. The same prophet speak of the glory of Zion instead. It is what the expression" unto this day" in the key verse leads to.
"Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee./The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD." (Is.60:5-6) This spiritual kingdom is established by God before the worlds began. It is to which the word of God exhorts us in this exquisite line, "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."(Is.40: 28-31)
Thank you for those words. I do agree that salvation is offered to all through Christ, but not all will receive Him. Romans 10:8-10 which you have shared is a promise to everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, that they will, not might, but they will be saved.
But yes, there has to be a response. A person must receive Christ. Please know that I never say "accept Christ" because the Bible never tells us to accept Him. It does tell us to receive Him. To me, to accept just means to mentally agree with something or someone. A person must receive Christ!
As far as there having to be a response from us, did you know that we are saints by calling?
In some of Paul's letters, we see the phrase "called to be saints," and the words "to be" are in italics. It's because the words "to be" were added. We are not called to be saints. We are called saints. It is God who called us, and we simply responded to the call!
And yes, I agree with you on the future restoration of the Jewish/Hebrew people. I believe that when Christ returns, every Jew alive on this earth will then realize that He is their Messiah that they crucified, and they will be saved!
God Bless!!!
Yes, you already answered and stated your position. We came to an agreement and I have moved on and forgotten about because I thought we were done with that conversation. But since you are bringing it back up, please allow me to reshare your exact words to SeanPaul:
You said to him, "You make a good point about people who use these versions not being true Christians and I agree with you for those you have been made to see the truth in this."
Now you are telling me that I "really didn't understand" what you were saying, but your statement was quite clear to me as to what you were agreeing with, or at least what you thought was a "good point."
And no, I did not think that you agreed with someone who said Christians who use bible versions other than the KJB are in sin because that's not what you said. What you seemed to agree with was that these people were not true Christians if they read any other Bible than the KJV.
Please reread your exact words which I have quoted. I'm not sure how else to interpret what you said. If that's not what you meant and you simply made a mistake by telling SeanPaul that he made a good point about those who read different bibles not being true Christians, then that's fine, let's move on!
Blessings!
I have a question?
Was David doing all those things you have eluded to? was Solomon or Saul or any other doing those works, or was it God doing it through them?
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and God doth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Jeremiah 51:20-24 .... thou art my battle axe and weapons of war ......
Isaiah 10:15 .... Shall the axe boost himself against him that heweth therewith?.....
Are we not the POT and God the POTTER?
God Bless YOU
With the establishment of the 3rd heaven- Isaiah 51:16, Luke 20:35-36, 2Corinthians 12:2 combined with Revelation 4:1, the 1st and the 2nd heavens THAT WERE ESTABLISHED until this current time( Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21) being on FIRE (GOD is a consuming FIRE- Isaiah 33:10-14) shall be DISSOLVED (something similar to an implosion) as was prophesied. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of person ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? 2Peter 3:10.
Actually until this current time were established two DISTINCTS heavens, and from now on will be established or planted ( Isaiah 51:16) the DISTINCT 3rd heaven for 1000 years, no more than 1000 years, that is the Kingdom of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18, incidentally Satan also ascended to the 1st and 2nd heavens- Revelation 12:3-and still is in heaven for now, but he will not ascend to the 3rd heaven, never will, on the contrary, he will be cast into the bottomless pit, and WHEN the thousand years(of the existence of the 3rd heaven) are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and there will be another battle against him and his hosts, and fire will come down from GOD out of heaven, and will devoure them. After that, GOD will establish the environment of heaven of the heavens (an heaven above of the first three distincts heavens that were before).
That's what we interpret about heavens within the Scriptures. There are three that bear record (testify) in heaven, the Father (GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person): and these three are One. 1John 5:7
Get ready
(Part 4, and final part): I'm not going to promise this time as I've learned my lesson!
Q. If you believe that God wrote the KJB, who wrote the bible/s that was/were already in existence before 1611?
Q. Also, if God did write the KJB, which version of the KJB did He write? Was it the original 1611 because there have been several revisions to the 1611. What the revisions? Some say that the revisions and changes are just grammatical errors and such. But with God being perfect, would there be grammatical errors at all if He wrote it?
Momsage, I do appreciate your questions. I also appreciate and respect your zeal for the King James Bible, even though we don't agree on who wrote it and its complete accuracy. It is still the bible I choose to study. I also read the Greek text (Textus Receptus) and there are differences that I have found from the Greek text in comparison to the KJB. Would it be wrong of me to mark through a word in the KJB and replace it with the word the Greek text uses if the original text uses a different word?
Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!
(Part 3):
Hopefully, I have answered all your questions. Before I ask my questions, I just want to commend you on the 56 years of studying God's word. I also have spent many years in His word. I have never shared how many years on this forum because that is something I just don't feel the need to share. I have my reasons or not sharing that. However, I do agree with you fully that it is through God's word that spiritual growth comes from. In fact, I believe the next step after salvation is growth. Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
If I were to pick one verse in the bible, this is the verse I would pick as to what would be the message for believers today. Though we have a multitude of things that we like to do in reference to the Lord, the things that we know are important (at least to us), grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That's a command! It is written in command form in the Greek text.
And no, I don't think you were being sarcastic at all. Your questions were fair to ask.
Now, for my questions:
Q. What version did God write?
Q. Is it the bible that teaches us right from wrong, or is it God's Spirit that convicts a person (both believer and non-believer) of what's right and what's wrong?
Q. If the KJB is used as the source to compare all other bibles for truth, what do you use to check the KJB for accuracy?
Q. Since you asked, "why didn't they use the manuscripts God used," I must ask you what manuscripts did God use?
Q. You speak of "those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?" My question to you is who are you speaking of me? This sure doesn't sound like me or anyone else on this forum. I think everyone here believes that God has given us the word of truth!
I know I promised this to be the last part, but I have just a wee bit more. Please forgive me!
(Part 2):
Continuation of your questions:
Q. If they believed the bible was the written word of God, why didn't they use the manuscripts God used and just make simple changes to the language?
A. Again, not knowing their motive, I cannot answer this one. But if these men truly believed the bible was the written word of God, I would have to believe that there would be no need to for them to even "make simple changes to the language."
Q. Why if they loved God and respected His word would they do what they did and now there are those of you who don't even believe God wrote a word of truth for us?
A. Once again, I have no way of knowing what their motives were.
Q. What joy is there in reading man's interpretation of what God may have said, or maybe not?
A. I'm sure no one would find any joy in that! If I were to read the preface of any bible and it said that the word written herein may be what God has said, or may not be what He said, the preface would be as far as I would read.
Q. How do we know that they (JW's, Mormons, Buddhists) don't have the truth?
A. If what they teach goes against what Paul preached and taught, their "truth" is to be rejected. ( Galatians 1:8-9)
Q. Why don't we just all make up our own religion and do what we want from whatever versions we choose to believe or maybe bits here and bits there from every version. Whatever suits us.
A. With all the various religions out there (too many to count), it's already been done! The reason why we have so many religions and denominations are because man cannot agree on what God's word says. Many of us here (including you and I) read the KJB but we disagree on what it says in certain places. Why is that? It's because English is such a general language. Hebrew also is a general language. But not so with Greek. Greek is such an exact language to where it makes it almost impossible to come up with different conclusions as to what the text is saying.
One more short post, I promise!
(Part 1):
Well, I think you have somewhat misunderstood me about what I believe. Your comment that I "don't seem to believe the ancient writings have been handed down without errors" is simply an assumption on your part. I am not sure how you come to that conclusion from my comments, but I can tell you that I do believe the ancient writings (Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic) have been handed down without error.
I believe the ancient writings of scripture are completely free from error. However, the KJB or any other English translation or version are not the ancient writings, and there is no perfect English translation/version. I will attempt to answer your questions, but I also have a few of my own.
First, to answer your questions:
Q. If God didn't write one true version of His word for us to have then who did?
A. According to the definition of the word version, I don't believe God wrote any version at all. However, we do have God's perfect word in the original languages. It's through various English translations (including the KJB) where we run into problems.
Q. How do we know right from wrong if we can't trust what is written?
A. Human beings know right from wrong before they learn to read. As for us believers, it is God's Spirit that puts it on our hearts to know right from wrong. We don't need a bible to know right from wrong. Those in OT times didn't have a bible to read. They knew right from wrong.
Q. Since the authors of these versions have said they were only attempting to modernize the language of the KJB, which is why the comparison is made to the KJB, why did they almost exclusively use different ancient writings then weren't used for the KJB?
A. Unless you can tell me which authors you are speaking of and share with me their exact words and motives, I am not sure how to answer this question.
Very interesting,
I'm familiar with some of what you mentioned but
I wouldn't be able to comment on any of this, being that I haven't gave much study on it in a while!
And never dug in that deep
but I will definitely do so!
Thanks and God bless.
Universalism does not teach that every human will be saved because the sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the whole world.
Universalism teaches that every human will be saved whether they believe or accept Christ or not.
Everyone gets saved no matter what.
The bible is what teaches that Jesus sacrifice was for the whole world.
John 3:14-16
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Just as anyone in the camp beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.in Numbers 21:9, Anyone who trust in the Lamb of God shall also live.
Here's more connecting verses.
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the "SIN" of the world.
You noticed I put emphasis on the word SIN here in this verse. It's singular!
It is the penalty of sin that is being spoken of here that was brought in the world by Adam's transgression mentioned in Romans. Romans 5:12-15.
If the penalty of sin was imputed to All men then the Love offering and sacrifice was for all men.
Drop down to Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.
John again.
1 John 2:2 states "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
There will be more on this later, God bless.
Galatians 4:9 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again, till Christ be formed IN YOU.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.
God Bless YOU
David was a man , a man of war and passion . Clever , cunning and manipulative . A true servant of God , full of love and zeal for God and a determination to serve God to the best of his faith and privilege and responsibilities . For me , he had the edge over Solomon because he only married one strange wife , an Egyptian lady and I'm guessing this was a political marriage and although he had many wives he didn't allow them to turn his heart away from God . The Kingdom of Israel under Solomon may be a foreshadow of the Kingdom to come but it is marred by Solomon allowing himself to be led astray . In his writings he often blames women for the downfall of men but his own lust and weakness is to blame and I'm sure he eventually recognised this , judging by his heartfelt repentance in Ecclesiastes .
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter : Fear God and keep His commandments : for this is the whole duty of man . I find David's life fascinating , he's so very human and he loves God so very much .
Whoever penned that verse was ignoring David's failure to punish his own son , who raped David's own daughter , according to God's laws .
One glaring inconsistency concerns what happened to Saul's body and how David reacted to what happened , depending on which book you are reading . In 1st Samuel chapter 31 verses 11-13 we read what the valiant men of Jabesh-Gilead did . In 2nd Samuel chapter 2 verses 5-7 we get David's favourable response to their actions .
Let's jump on to 2nd Samuel chapter 21 , a very interesting chapter all round but let's go straight to verse 12 , where it seems a different attitude prevails .
About chapter 21. It is another example of how David manipulates the situation in order to circumvent the promise that he made to Saul in 1st Samuel chapter 24 verses 21+22 . In 2nd Samuel ch 2 v 8 we discover that Abner is Saul's biological cousin and Ch 2 and 3 give us an account of what went on between Joab and Abner (Saul's cousin ) . It seems to me that Joab is right in his estimation of Abner's character and motives but David will have none of it , he treats Abner as a friend , in my opinion he knows full well how Joab will react and behave in this situation , in fact he's counting on Joab to do what he knows he can't do because of his promise to Saul . My theory can be backed up by David's behaviour in 2nd Samuel ch 21 v 1-11. He appears to condone human sacrifice as he arranges the murders of Saul's two sons and five grandsons on the pretext of appeasing the Gibeonites , who aren't even of Israel . Just what David wanted to do but could not because of his oath . Mephibosheth is the last son of Saul and he's a cripple , David keeps a close eye on him and his only son Micha who is mentioned only once .