Jesus said 2 commandments are most important, above all. If I follow the commandments, I will be OK at that. I don't need to dissect a butterfly to see how it flies. My impression is that everyone good and bad make it to the promised land, the tainted spirits we wear will be made whole so we haven't the capacity to sin. Even though it's dangled in our faces, the lake of fire is only for the 3 evil spirits, and no one else. Too much speculation and fuss is made over what will never be known and confirmed from the hear and now. Anything that occurs past the 7th trumpet is beyond our scope, beyond our comprehension, and out of this world. For all we know, our salvation comes from being thrown back into the universe as dust particles, into a new realm.
I don't think about my salvation, I don't worry about it, because it's not mine to entertain, but God's.
My personal salvation is rooted in selfishness that I could be good enough to make the grade.
I seek truth well before salvation. I was never a fanatic for life, so I look forward to death, the charade over. I wouldn't mind being blotted out as if I never existed, no record, that would be fine with me, too. I will have to wait and see what the Lord has in store for me.
Spencer, tell me what you disagree with, we can have a healthy conversation to level the field. My views are based on scripture defining itself through corresponding scripture. I've memorized to heart most of it. So, anything I've said that hasn't happened yet, I can explain through simple reasoning. If I'm wrong about what I write, then that needs attention. Since it's based in the future, interpretation, and I haven't seen the future, but for scripture, my views becomes more nuanced. That means I use the prophets' word to mitigate the gap, so you will gain from it.
I've given you a lot of material to dissect and question. For every issue you have, you must explain your personal method of understanding, and how you got there. Please review my work and write down each trespass for examination. Throw everything you got at me, perhaps I need humbled, and am the last one to know it. Looking forward to it, Spencer.
My reply was to show Kay when she said "The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged" End quote.
You said, " Spencer What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12.
End quote.
However these are rapture quotes by them. again, Here's fragments of the post.
Oregin
"since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise."
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air."
I have been involved in several debated topics here on this site, mostly something to do with directly or indirectly to salvation.
I've read your views.
Our views are far off!!
As I said to Thomas I share with you.
1 John 5:11-13. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
When the Lord returns we all will have to give an account.
2 Corinthians 5:10.
I would love to receive one and hear this. Matthew 25:21.
I don't think I'll hear that spending all my time chasing down anymore that believes in the rapture.
But I would urge anyone to get their household ready and be watchful.
We have to be careful on how and when to engage because some find and treat the bible as 'Just" fascinating, or "Just" Interesting and treat the books as a great conversation piece.
There's no virtue in this.
I add, I have no Interest in turning this site into a battle ground over less important issues.
What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12
It's crucial to match the event with the time line. In doing so, we see they all happen at the 7th trumpet in accordance with the 1st resurrection. The 7th trumpet resurrection is reserved for the saints; the only ones hidden in allegory throughout 7 chapters of Revelation, and mentioned elsewhere. They were groomed to administer to Christ. They show up twice in Revelation 7; they are misunderstood and under-appreciated.
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"And do not marvel that the flesh of the SAINTS is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"
This is a text book description of the 1st resurrection. Paul lacked saying he was talking about saints.
Most rapturists leave before the 6th trumpet, before the day of the Lord, before the cataclysmic attack. All the examples you gave were for the 7th trumpet. You must be in the group that thinks you will be resurrected with the saints, that you are first fruits? That's a big difference compared to being removed by Jesus prior to Jesus and the beast army wrecking the earth with a curse.
The olden Christian's didn't know too much better than today. In my career as a Christian, I have gotten many meanings wrong because I wanted it to fit. Then, after frustration, you get the answer.
Matthew 24 is directed towards the whole house of Israel. One house receives the abomination of desolation, the other, captivity Joel 3:1 It was Jesus who went after the lost sheep of Israel, why would He exclude them from Mat 24?
Ezekiel 38 is directed towards both houses of Israel, vs 9 & 16 show 2 clouds covering each land.
I appreciate your knowledge, here. Jesus also comes symbolically at the 6th trumpet, day of the Lord, the day named after Him. Jesus comes like a thief to lay the land desolate (both houses of Israel).
Jesus participates at the falling away in Spirit:
Isaiah 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even the LORD], and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not, 6th trumpet.
Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, 6th trumpet.
Joel 2:9 Jesus comes in at the windows "like a thief" at the day of the Lord.
God even calls the beast army, "His army", and praises anti-christ's might, Joel 2:11
Everything Jesus warns us about is facilitated through anti-christ's scriptural actions against us. Jesus warns us of a surprise attack, a sudden strike, then we find out that that's what anti-christ is preparing for a year, month, day and hour. Jeremiah 15:6-9 "I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city".
As a cautionary note about the day of the Lord and America:
Ezekiel 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
Kay, you can keep better track of events within trumpets 5-6-7:
The fifth trumpet began tribulation: Rev 9:1-11 "Immediately after" comes the day of the Lord strike. The 144,000 saints are sealed from death, prior.
The sixth trumpet ( Mat 24:29) begins great tribulation: day of the Lord, Babylon falls; Ezekiel 21:1-5 both righteous and wicked are "taken"; Luke 17:34-37, the "taken" are dead, not raptured.
The seventh trumpet ( Mat 24:30-31) brings Jesus Messiah and his resurrected army of 144,000 saints to Mount Olive, Revelation 14:1
After the 1,000 years: 2nd resurrection.
There is no free ticket out. Too many confuse the saints' narrative with their own. Humans will leave the earth hanging from a thread, and they want right back in before the saints can clean it up? The McDonald pushed rapture doctrine is an aberration to the Word of God, yet so accepted in society. It's one of the first things a beginner learns; it's a mockery.
I've never heard a pre-trib view taught that there is 3 comings of Christ, I always understood that there is the 1st coming and the second coming to Earth.
The rapture is called the "harpazo" in the Greek. meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize," The Lord don't come to the earth, We go to him!
1 Thessalonians 4:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
His second coming he comes to the Earth with judgment.
In these 2nd coming verses there's no mention of the removal of saints.
Here's just a few of many.
Zechariah 14:4.
Revelation 19:11-16,
Revelation 20:1-6.
Matthew 25:31-32.
The 2nd coming he comes with his saints.
If he raptured in his 2nd coming when he comes and make war against the nations who's going to populate the Millennium?
Mathew 24 is centered around Israel, and Israel is called Gods elect throughout scripture. also the early church did believe in the rapture. here's just a few.
Oregin.
"Those whom we spoke of as dead have special need of the resurrection, since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise. (Commentary on John, 20.233)
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"And do not marvel that the flesh of the saints is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"
Augustine.
"And why should it seem to us incredible that that multitude of bodies should be, as it were, sown in the air, and should in the air forthwith revive immortal and incorruptible, when we believe, on the testimony of the same apostle, that the resurrection shall take place in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dust of bodies long dead shall return with incomprehensible facility and swiftness to those members that are now to live endlessly? (City of God, 20.20)"
They had several different views as we do today, Some post-trib, some pre-trib.
This is a very broad subject, and too deep for just a forum. The Servus Christi you tube channel has an excellent teaching on this subject; Joshua does a very studious job laying this all out; and he is a much better expounder than I am. If you're interested, you an go to that channel and search the video out.
I believe if you study your KJB. You'll see Matthew 24 is directed to the Jewish people where as Paul brings the gospel to the gentiles that's where the mystery of the rapture is revealed
The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged.
Let us consider these verses in the KJV of Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
AFTER the tribulation of those days........the angel GATHER TOGETHER THE ELECT!!!!!
Corrie Ten Boom's whole ministry that the Lord gave her was to warn Christians of the coming tribulation. She herself knew much about tribulation, having lost her whole family in a concentration camp! On one of her ministry trips, she was in China; Christians there told her about how American missionaries lied to them, and said they'd never have to go through tribulation, assuring the Chinese believers that before suffering-- they'd be raptured away. Then came Mao's tyranny - and Christians suffered horribly! Worse yet, many stumbled in faith because they were NOT raptured!! They thought that Jesus had 'let them down'!!!! What a dangerous doctrine!!
Christians in so many places today go through great and fiery tribulation, and experience hunger, cold, thirst, imprisonment, torture and death. We dare not ignore that, lest we stumble as well!! We must have our loins girt, and seeking the Lord now to have grace and strength to endure! He who ENDURES to the end shall be saved! Amen!
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHALL NOT prevent them WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.
Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Mishael comment: I hope you're using a Bible version that is not the King James Version?
The Bible says the dead Christians are "raptured" first.
No pretrib,midtrib,postrib rapturejesus comes back one time for those who are alive and remain in him! 1thessolonians 4:15-17 alive and remain mentioned two times means pay attention please pray and ask the lord to reveal the truth to you and read for yourselves
matthew 13:24-30 first the tares are gathered, and bundled to be burned, then the wheat is gathered into the barn.
john 16:33 these things i have spoken unto you,that in me (jesus) you might have peace. in the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; i have overcome the world.
Yes ,.. Paul is explaining that not everyone will be dead, in the flesh upon Jesus' 2nd coming, but instantly upon his feet touching the mount of olives , those alive in the flesh shall instantly be changed into there spiritual body's,.. that's how all of us can be sure, for upon his return we all will be in spiritual body's ,.. so if someone says Christ is here or Christ is there , do not believe,.. for we in the flesh, shall not be flesh when the real Jesus comes
Jugment is naturally required before the reward is given! Jesus comes to give to each one, according with his deeds, in christ or not. What is not from faith is sinfull. God prepared the good works before we came into this world of sin, through The Lamb of God, His Begotten Son, who was slain before the foudation of the world.
Christ's deeds were a man's deeds by Faith alone, with the ministy of angels and the Holy spirit, like any other man! The diference being that Jesus didn't sin! His Justice was accepted by God and the 24 Helders in heaven's Council, near God's Throne: Apocalypse chapters 4 and 5.
When I accept Jesus as my personal savior and Master, in the full capacity of my mind and with an undivided heart, practice that kind of faith wich works through love, for others. Jesus knows if I'm His disciple,by putting Him on the first place on my dayly choices, by faith on Jesus Faith.
On the Israelyte's sanctuary, at the end of the year, on attonement's day, the High priest, representing Christ Ministry on Heaven after ressurection, symbolicaly executed a jugment and condemnation, upon the two goats, one was sacrificed as a type of Jesus death on the cross, and the other one sent to the desert, to die having recieved the sins of the congregation. Those were figures of the true sanctuary on Heaven and the fate of those who reject Jesus blood, with intent or by convenience or compromise with what is agains't God's Principles resumed on the Law given to Mouses, and wich transgression took Jesus's life as a ransom for sin's debt fulfilling God's Justice wich is inseparable from His Mercy, to complet God's Perfect Love. Is dangerous to think less from the victory wich Jesus mentioned for those who will be savel, as writen on apocalypse on the leters adressed to seven churches, and repetidly enphasized By Our Lord Jesus Christ, The Begotten Son of God. Saying LORD Lord, isn't enough for God's Kingdom.Paul died for himself and lived for Christ. He won Jesus's Crown.
It's written on the Holy Bible that God Is The Spirit, and only God Has alone Imortality, meaning that God has no biginning nor can die. He existed before any creature as a trine God, being the Alfa and the Omega, and this title belongs to Jesus Christ, as it's revealed on the last bible's book the Apocalipse.
As man i'm mortal as it's writen on ezequiel 18:4 the soul who sahll sin will die When God crested manking , Adam first god formed him from the earth materials, called dust, on gnesis, and then Having just formed a body, blew into man's nosthrils the breath of life, and Adam became a living soul. being able to think, breath and talk with God, without the learning process, by a miracle of God he became instantaneously an adult person, durin the week's formation of the others living creatures. The planet earth was void of life, and with life god prepared physical and material conditions to sustain life. It's writen on eclesiastes 9:5 that menkind is mortal and without emotions and being unable to have memory not knowing nothing about what hapens around the living world, in a situation of being inconscient like any other living creature, including satan when he wil perish, after the milleneum. After Jesus's ressurection He said to Mary, dont delai me because I haven't yet go to my Father. Jesus was realy dead, as lazarus whom He ressurected calling on a loud voice. Lazarus come out. Jesus through Paul I Corintians,15, teaches that Christian's hope is ressurection, as in I Tessalonians too.If Jesus was not dead and inconscient, during sabath after crucifictio, as a man, His substitut sacrifice woul be invalid, bacause. He didn't went to heaven that day, because he sufered sin's penalty wich is death.
Satan's liye has been repeated since the first spiritism apearence to Eve. God is God of the living not the dead. Our oportunity is now while living. Jesus in parabol teaches, that there is an abiss between living and dead. Calvary's man raised up from death
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our COMFORT And Consolation. Amen. 1 Thessalonians 4:18
Time Of JACOB's (Israel's) Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in
God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom "ages" past/future Genesis-John Hebrews-Revelation
God's "Earthly Kingdom" Purpose From "the foundation of the world" Matthew 25:34
God's Purpose Prophesied "since the world began" Luke 1:68-70Acts 3:21
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
Great GRACE Departure!
Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST, Ending God's Age Of GRACE, Is Found In
God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God, Which Is Current for us, Today, Under GRACE = "But NOW!" Romans through Philemon, Especially Romans 3:21Ephesians 2:13
"Whereof I am made a minister, According To The (GRACE) Dispensation Of God Which Is Given To me for you, to Fulfil The Word of God; Even The Mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, BUT NOW Is Made Manifest to his saints" Colossians 1:25-26
God's "Heavenly Hidden" Purpose Before "the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:42 Timothy 1:9
God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret "since the world began" Romans 16:25Ephesians 1:4-8Ephesians 1:8-11Ephesians 3:5-9
to be continued in Part II God's Great GRACE Departure
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy
1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords, Is Coming From Heaven! Matthew 24:29Revelation 19:11,16
2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! Revelation 19:12-15
3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!), His armies on white horses! Revelation 19:12-15
(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * "All Of His holy angels,"
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations
Matthew 25:31Revelation 19:11,15
(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: "gather the elect"...
Matthew 24:31Mark 13:27
6) ...for the "judgment of the Earthly Nations" By The Son of man, The King! Matthew 25:31-36Matthew 25:36-41Matthew 25:41-46
7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels! Matthew 25:34-38Matthew 25:38-41
Matthew 25:41-46
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!
to be continued in Part III God's Great GRACE Departure
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming continued
The Second 'prophesied' Coming
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
God's PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly 'Mystery!'
1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From Heaven! Ephesians 1:19-23Colossians 1:181 Thessalonians 4:16-17
2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel, And With The Trump of God! 1 Thessalonians 4:16
3) JESUS CHRIST, Who Is God, Will Bring With Him, those "asleep In JESUS," who Were With Him In Heaven! 2 Corinthians 5:6,8Philippians 1:21,231 Thessalonians 4:13,14
4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those asleep (in 3) First, and Then, we "which are alive and remain (which Is A Mystery)," will be changed/all "incorruptible, And Caught Up together (rapture) to meet The LORD in the air (Not all the way to the earth), in the twinkling of an eye!" 1 Thessalonians 4:16-171 Corinthians 15:52-53
5) CHRIST "Gathers His Body To HIMSELF, to Take them To Heaven" (Opposite of earth)... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-31 Corinthians 15:492 Corinthians 12:22 Corinthians 5:1,2Ephesians 1:3,20Ephesians 2:6Philippians 3:202 Timothy 4:18
6) ...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body, By The Head Himself!... Romans 2:6,16Romans 14:10-121 Corinthians 3:6-111 Corinthians 3:12-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 6:202 Corinthians 5:10Ephesians 6:8Colossians 3:24-25
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming continued
7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... Ephesians 5:27
7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father, In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen! 1 Thessalonians 3:13Colossians 1:5,221 Corinthians 6:32 Corinthians 5:1-2
* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD, Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of Glorification When You COME To Finally GATHER us HOME! Amen.
-------------------------------------------
2 Timothy 2:15Romans 16:25Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery 'fellowship,' for "all to see" today, Current, "But NOW!" Amen?
Precious friends, Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, Edified, And "COMFORTED With THESE Words Of God's Truth!" 1 Thessalonians 4:18
Hi Ann Whats known as the rapture is in thessalonians known as the gathering together of the body of Christ in this the age of Grace when he comes for the saints or the ones separated by the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the resurrection where we will be given perfect incorruptible bodies like his. This is not written in revelation, in revelation the saints come back with christ to kick the enemies butt for all time. I'm sure they'll be different ideas on this.
You don't have a spirit, God is the only Spirit.
This is part of being born INTO TRUTH.
Ephesians 4:4 For there is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT .....
Ephesians 4:4 ONE GOD, and FATHER OF ALL ......
Man is only the body (or vessel) of THE SPIRIT. Of yourself you can do NOTHING.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind (renewing your mind to TRUTH) be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of GOD (a body holding ONE SPIRIT), thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD.
There is only ONE LIFE (SPIRIT, GOD).
You are only the vessel that holds that LIFE, when your body dies, only LIFE and TRUTH remain.
You are instantly in the presence of God, because you HAVE been BORN AGAIN by the TRUTH of God's word.
Philippians 2:13 For it is GOD (SPIRIT, LIFE, TRUTH) that worketh IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure.
Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery ....Christ in you .....(the body)
GBU
Jesus said 2 commandments are most important, above all. If I follow the commandments, I will be OK at that. I don't need to dissect a butterfly to see how it flies. My impression is that everyone good and bad make it to the promised land, the tainted spirits we wear will be made whole so we haven't the capacity to sin. Even though it's dangled in our faces, the lake of fire is only for the 3 evil spirits, and no one else. Too much speculation and fuss is made over what will never be known and confirmed from the hear and now. Anything that occurs past the 7th trumpet is beyond our scope, beyond our comprehension, and out of this world. For all we know, our salvation comes from being thrown back into the universe as dust particles, into a new realm.
I don't think about my salvation, I don't worry about it, because it's not mine to entertain, but God's.
My personal salvation is rooted in selfishness that I could be good enough to make the grade.
I seek truth well before salvation. I was never a fanatic for life, so I look forward to death, the charade over. I wouldn't mind being blotted out as if I never existed, no record, that would be fine with me, too. I will have to wait and see what the Lord has in store for me.
Please bare with me, I'm at work right now and will try to set aside some time to engage.
FIRST Please tell me a little something about your views on salvation. and fruit barring, and how this salvation includes the old testament saints.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
God bless.
Our views are far off!!"
Spencer, tell me what you disagree with, we can have a healthy conversation to level the field. My views are based on scripture defining itself through corresponding scripture. I've memorized to heart most of it. So, anything I've said that hasn't happened yet, I can explain through simple reasoning. If I'm wrong about what I write, then that needs attention. Since it's based in the future, interpretation, and I haven't seen the future, but for scripture, my views becomes more nuanced. That means I use the prophets' word to mitigate the gap, so you will gain from it.
I've given you a lot of material to dissect and question. For every issue you have, you must explain your personal method of understanding, and how you got there. Please review my work and write down each trespass for examination. Throw everything you got at me, perhaps I need humbled, and am the last one to know it. Looking forward to it, Spencer.
My reply was to show Kay when she said "The modern rapture doctrine was never taught by the early church. Study John Nelson Darby and a Scotish girl named 'MacDonald' from whom this theory emerged" End quote.
You said, " Spencer What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12.
End quote.
However these are rapture quotes by them. again, Here's fragments of the post.
Oregin
"since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise."
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air."
I have been involved in several debated topics here on this site, mostly something to do with directly or indirectly to salvation.
I've read your views.
Our views are far off!!
As I said to Thomas I share with you.
1 John 5:11-13. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
When the Lord returns we all will have to give an account.
2 Corinthians 5:10.
I would love to receive one and hear this. Matthew 25:21.
I don't think I'll hear that spending all my time chasing down anymore that believes in the rapture.
But I would urge anyone to get their household ready and be watchful.
We have to be careful on how and when to engage because some find and treat the bible as 'Just" fascinating, or "Just" Interesting and treat the books as a great conversation piece.
There's no virtue in this.
I add, I have no Interest in turning this site into a battle ground over less important issues.
Are you Interested in discussing soteriology?
What you've listed is not rapture, but resurrection by the books. Revelation 11:11-12
It's crucial to match the event with the time line. In doing so, we see they all happen at the 7th trumpet in accordance with the 1st resurrection. The 7th trumpet resurrection is reserved for the saints; the only ones hidden in allegory throughout 7 chapters of Revelation, and mentioned elsewhere. They were groomed to administer to Christ. They show up twice in Revelation 7; they are misunderstood and under-appreciated.
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"And do not marvel that the flesh of the SAINTS is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"
This is a text book description of the 1st resurrection. Paul lacked saying he was talking about saints.
Most rapturists leave before the 6th trumpet, before the day of the Lord, before the cataclysmic attack. All the examples you gave were for the 7th trumpet. You must be in the group that thinks you will be resurrected with the saints, that you are first fruits? That's a big difference compared to being removed by Jesus prior to Jesus and the beast army wrecking the earth with a curse.
The olden Christian's didn't know too much better than today. In my career as a Christian, I have gotten many meanings wrong because I wanted it to fit. Then, after frustration, you get the answer.
Matthew 24 is directed towards the whole house of Israel. One house receives the abomination of desolation, the other, captivity Joel 3:1 It was Jesus who went after the lost sheep of Israel, why would He exclude them from Mat 24?
Ezekiel 38 is directed towards both houses of Israel, vs 9 & 16 show 2 clouds covering each land.
Ezekiel 21:19-20 two lands destroyed from 1 land.
I appreciate your knowledge, here. Jesus also comes symbolically at the 6th trumpet, day of the Lord, the day named after Him. Jesus comes like a thief to lay the land desolate (both houses of Israel).
Jesus participates at the falling away in Spirit:
Isaiah 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even the LORD], and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not, 6th trumpet.
Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty, 6th trumpet.
Joel 2:9 Jesus comes in at the windows "like a thief" at the day of the Lord.
God even calls the beast army, "His army", and praises anti-christ's might, Joel 2:11
Everything Jesus warns us about is facilitated through anti-christ's scriptural actions against us. Jesus warns us of a surprise attack, a sudden strike, then we find out that that's what anti-christ is preparing for a year, month, day and hour. Jeremiah 15:6-9 "I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city".
As a cautionary note about the day of the Lord and America:
Ezekiel 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
The fifth trumpet began tribulation: Rev 9:1-11 "Immediately after" comes the day of the Lord strike. The 144,000 saints are sealed from death, prior.
The sixth trumpet ( Mat 24:29) begins great tribulation: day of the Lord, Babylon falls; Ezekiel 21:1-5 both righteous and wicked are "taken"; Luke 17:34-37, the "taken" are dead, not raptured.
The seventh trumpet ( Mat 24:30-31) brings Jesus Messiah and his resurrected army of 144,000 saints to Mount Olive, Revelation 14:1
After the 1,000 years: 2nd resurrection.
There is no free ticket out. Too many confuse the saints' narrative with their own. Humans will leave the earth hanging from a thread, and they want right back in before the saints can clean it up? The McDonald pushed rapture doctrine is an aberration to the Word of God, yet so accepted in society. It's one of the first things a beginner learns; it's a mockery.
Thanks for your reply.
I've never heard a pre-trib view taught that there is 3 comings of Christ, I always understood that there is the 1st coming and the second coming to Earth.
The rapture is called the "harpazo" in the Greek. meaning "to snatch away" or "to seize," The Lord don't come to the earth, We go to him!
1 Thessalonians 4:17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
His second coming he comes to the Earth with judgment.
In these 2nd coming verses there's no mention of the removal of saints.
Here's just a few of many.
Zechariah 14:4.
Revelation 19:11-16,
Revelation 20:1-6.
Matthew 25:31-32.
The 2nd coming he comes with his saints.
If he raptured in his 2nd coming when he comes and make war against the nations who's going to populate the Millennium?
Here's parallel verses to
Mathew 24:31.
Isaiah 11:12.
Jeremiah 23:7-8.
Jeremiah 16:14-15.
Ezekiel 34:12-13.
Isaiah 45:4.
Goodnight Kay and God bless.
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
There are only two 'comings' of the Lord given in Scripture; the first to be born of a virgin, to be our Savior.
The second time - as conquering King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ our Redeemer.
My understanding is, that pre-tribulation theorists then, add to scripture saying Christ is appearing three times.
Have a grace-filled day, Spencer.
Mathew 24 is centered around Israel, and Israel is called Gods elect throughout scripture. also the early church did believe in the rapture. here's just a few.
Oregin.
"Those whom we spoke of as dead have special need of the resurrection, since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise. (Commentary on John, 20.233)
Rufinus of Aquileia.
"And do not marvel that the flesh of the saints is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)"
Augustine.
"And why should it seem to us incredible that that multitude of bodies should be, as it were, sown in the air, and should in the air forthwith revive immortal and incorruptible, when we believe, on the testimony of the same apostle, that the resurrection shall take place in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dust of bodies long dead shall return with incomprehensible facility and swiftness to those members that are now to live endlessly? (City of God, 20.20)"
They had several different views as we do today, Some post-trib, some pre-trib.
Will share more on this later.
Goodnight and
God bless
This is a very broad subject, and too deep for just a forum. The Servus Christi you tube channel has an excellent teaching on this subject; Joshua does a very studious job laying this all out; and he is a much better expounder than I am. If you're interested, you an go to that channel and search the video out.
God bless!
Isaiah 27:12 An it shall come to pass in that day ......ye shall be GATHERED one by one, O ye children of Israel.
GBU
Let us consider these verses in the KJV of Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
AFTER the tribulation of those days........the angel GATHER TOGETHER THE ELECT!!!!!
Corrie Ten Boom's whole ministry that the Lord gave her was to warn Christians of the coming tribulation. She herself knew much about tribulation, having lost her whole family in a concentration camp! On one of her ministry trips, she was in China; Christians there told her about how American missionaries lied to them, and said they'd never have to go through tribulation, assuring the Chinese believers that before suffering-- they'd be raptured away. Then came Mao's tyranny - and Christians suffered horribly! Worse yet, many stumbled in faith because they were NOT raptured!! They thought that Jesus had 'let them down'!!!! What a dangerous doctrine!!
Christians in so many places today go through great and fiery tribulation, and experience hunger, cold, thirst, imprisonment, torture and death. We dare not ignore that, lest we stumble as well!! We must have our loins girt, and seeking the Lord now to have grace and strength to endure! He who ENDURES to the end shall be saved! Amen!
Blessings to one and all....
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHALL NOT prevent them WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.
Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Mishael comment: I hope you're using a Bible version that is not the King James Version?
The Bible says the dead Christians are "raptured" first.
Please do not say it again because it is heresy!
matthew 13:24-30 first the tares are gathered, and bundled to be burned, then the wheat is gathered into the barn.
john 16:33 these things i have spoken unto you,that in me (jesus) you might have peace. in the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; i have overcome the world.
Christ's deeds were a man's deeds by Faith alone, with the ministy of angels and the Holy spirit, like any other man! The diference being that Jesus didn't sin! His Justice was accepted by God and the 24 Helders in heaven's Council, near God's Throne: Apocalypse chapters 4 and 5.
When I accept Jesus as my personal savior and Master, in the full capacity of my mind and with an undivided heart, practice that kind of faith wich works through love, for others. Jesus knows if I'm His disciple,by putting Him on the first place on my dayly choices, by faith on Jesus Faith.
On the Israelyte's sanctuary, at the end of the year, on attonement's day, the High priest, representing Christ Ministry on Heaven after ressurection, symbolicaly executed a jugment and condemnation, upon the two goats, one was sacrificed as a type of Jesus death on the cross, and the other one sent to the desert, to die having recieved the sins of the congregation. Those were figures of the true sanctuary on Heaven and the fate of those who reject Jesus blood, with intent or by convenience or compromise with what is agains't God's Principles resumed on the Law given to Mouses, and wich transgression took Jesus's life as a ransom for sin's debt fulfilling God's Justice wich is inseparable from His Mercy, to complet God's Perfect Love. Is dangerous to think less from the victory wich Jesus mentioned for those who will be savel, as writen on apocalypse on the leters adressed to seven churches, and repetidly enphasized By Our Lord Jesus Christ, The Begotten Son of God. Saying LORD Lord, isn't enough for God's Kingdom.Paul died for himself and lived for Christ. He won Jesus's Crown.
As man i'm mortal as it's writen on ezequiel 18:4 the soul who sahll sin will die When God crested manking , Adam first god formed him from the earth materials, called dust, on gnesis, and then Having just formed a body, blew into man's nosthrils the breath of life, and Adam became a living soul. being able to think, breath and talk with God, without the learning process, by a miracle of God he became instantaneously an adult person, durin the week's formation of the others living creatures. The planet earth was void of life, and with life god prepared physical and material conditions to sustain life. It's writen on eclesiastes 9:5 that menkind is mortal and without emotions and being unable to have memory not knowing nothing about what hapens around the living world, in a situation of being inconscient like any other living creature, including satan when he wil perish, after the milleneum. After Jesus's ressurection He said to Mary, dont delai me because I haven't yet go to my Father. Jesus was realy dead, as lazarus whom He ressurected calling on a loud voice. Lazarus come out. Jesus through Paul I Corintians,15, teaches that Christian's hope is ressurection, as in I Tessalonians too.If Jesus was not dead and inconscient, during sabath after crucifictio, as a man, His substitut sacrifice woul be invalid, bacause. He didn't went to heaven that day, because he sufered sin's penalty wich is death.
Satan's liye has been repeated since the first spiritism apearence to Eve. God is God of the living not the dead. Our oportunity is now while living. Jesus in parabol teaches, that there is an abiss between living and dead. Calvary's man raised up from death
Part I
PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure
A) God's TWO Different programs, Rightly Divided
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our COMFORT And Consolation. Amen. 1 Thessalonians 4:18
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A) God's TWO Different programs, Rightly Divided
Time Of JACOB's (Israel's) Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The Second Coming, is found in
God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom "ages" past/future Genesis-John Hebrews-Revelation
God's "Earthly Kingdom" Purpose From "the foundation of the world" Matthew 25:34
God's Purpose Prophesied "since the world began" Luke 1:68-70 Acts 3:21
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
Great GRACE Departure!
Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST, Ending God's Age Of GRACE, Is Found In
God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God, Which Is Current for us, Today, Under GRACE = "But NOW!" Romans through Philemon, Especially Romans 3:21 Ephesians 2:13
"Whereof I am made a minister, According To The (GRACE) Dispensation Of God Which Is Given To me for you, to Fulfil The Word of God; Even The Mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, BUT NOW Is Made Manifest to his saints" Colossians 1:25-26
God's "Heavenly Hidden" Purpose Before "the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4 2 Timothy 1:9
God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret "since the world began" Romans 16:25 Ephesians 1:4-8 Ephesians 1:8-11 Ephesians 3:5-9
to be continued in Part II God's Great GRACE Departure
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy
1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords, Is Coming From Heaven! Matthew 24:29 Revelation 19:11,16
2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! Revelation 19:12-15
3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!), His armies on white horses! Revelation 19:12-15
(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * "All Of His holy angels,"
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations
Matthew 25:31 Revelation 19:11,15
(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: "gather the elect"...
Matthew 24:31 Mark 13:27
6) ...for the "judgment of the Earthly Nations" By The Son of man, The King! Matthew 25:31-36 Matthew 25:36-41 Matthew 25:41-46
7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels! Matthew 25:34-38 Matthew 25:38-41
Matthew 25:41-46
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!
to be continued in Part III God's Great GRACE Departure
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming continued
The Second 'prophesied' Coming
Rightly Divided 2 Timothy 2:15 From Things That DIFFER
God's PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly 'Mystery!'
1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From Heaven! Ephesians 1:19-23 Colossians 1:18 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel, And With The Trump of God! 1 Thessalonians 4:16
3) JESUS CHRIST, Who Is God, Will Bring With Him, those "asleep In JESUS," who Were With Him In Heaven! 2 Corinthians 5:6,8 Philippians 1:21,23 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14
4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those asleep (in 3) First, and Then, we "which are alive and remain (which Is A Mystery)," will be changed/all "incorruptible, And Caught Up together (rapture) to meet The LORD in the air (Not all the way to the earth), in the twinkling of an eye!" 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 1 Corinthians 15:52-53
5) CHRIST "Gathers His Body To HIMSELF, to Take them To Heaven" (Opposite of earth)... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 1 Corinthians 15:49 2 Corinthians 12:2 2 Corinthians 5:1,2 Ephesians 1:3,20 Ephesians 2:6 Philippians 3:20 2 Timothy 4:18
6) ...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body, By The Head Himself!... Romans 2:6,16 Romans 14:10-12 1 Corinthians 3:6-11 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 6:20 2 Corinthians 5:10 Ephesians 6:8 Colossians 3:24-25
to be continued in:
Part IV God's PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!
God's PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!
B) Distinctions Between GREAT GRACE Departure and Second Coming continued
7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... Ephesians 5:27
7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father, In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! Amen! 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Colossians 1:5,22 1 Corinthians 6:3 2 Corinthians 5:1-2
* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
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LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD, Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of Glorification When You COME To Finally GATHER us HOME! Amen.
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2 Timothy 2:15 Romans 16:25 Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery 'fellowship,' for "all to see" today, Current, "But NOW!" Amen?
Precious friends, Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, Edified, And "COMFORTED With THESE Words Of God's Truth!" 1 Thessalonians 4:18