Thank you Chris and yes you are correct , the crux of the matter is that the Lord knows who is his . I know of brothers and sisters in foreign parts who don't live near anyone that they could break bread with so are in isolation in their faith . God sees them I know . Thanks again .
Hello Chris, this conversation on what taking of the elements of communion truly is has been meant to mean different things to different sects of the church body. You are correct that the RCC teaches that during the Mass, Jesus is sacrificed again for us in giving us His true body and blood in partaking of the bread and wine. They say that, though we do not see the elements actually change into flesh and blood, they truly do change to become Christ's body and blood shed for the remission of sins-called transubstantiation. They still remain bread and wine but a miracle is done by God to have these elements also be truly the body and blood, though unseen.
The Lutherans believe in consubstantiation-that Jesus is present in the bread and wine upon consecration with the words of institution. They say that Jesus is "in, with, and under", the bread and wine but do not teach that Christ is sacrificed each time communion is done in a service. They teach that Jesus is truly present in the elements, but also teach that the how of it is truly a mystery and we believe it by faith that we do receive Him at communion for strengthening our faith, healing our body, and remitting our sins that we confess during the service.
I believe the Anglican church also teach that by faith a believer does partake of the body and blood of Christ in a real but spiritual sense: The simplest phrase used to express this view is the phrase "real presence." This is an affirmation that what is happening during communion is real, and objective, and God assures it. It affirms also that God is present, and that we are to believe and trust that he is. Anglicans teach that sacraments are "effectual signs of grace and that "real presence" is Christ's spiritual presence that is experienced in the hearts of believers when the grace of the sacrament is received by faith. Since his bodily Ascension, Jesus remains spiritually present everywhere but he remains corporeally in heaven until He returns again.
Thank you for the post. My answer to your question is yes. I do believe Jesus was speaking figuratively at the last supper. Did Jesus give His literal blood and flesh to them to eat and drink? I have to say no. As far as the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood of Jesus "by faith," as you mentioned, one would have to be fully persuaded (faith) that these elements are indeed His literal body and blood. I do come to that conclusion.
You're referring to 1 Corinthians Chapter 11, specifically Verse 29 which reads, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
It doesn't say anything about them having a sin. It says if they do it unworthily. It was the manner in which they were participating. When they took the bread and drank the cup, they were not discerning that these elements represented the Lord's body. They were eating it like it was a meal.
Jesus set it up so that when we take the bread or drink the cup, He said do this in remembrance of me. When we participate in communion, we are doing it to remember what Christ has done for us, that He was crucified for us, that He gave His body and He gave His blood at the cross, not at the last supper.
In Luke 22:19, Jesus takes the bread, gives thanks, breaks it and gives it to them and says, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."
From a Hebrew perspective, that little phrase "This is my body" is a very typical Hebrew metaphorical usage of using your body. He's not saying that the bread became His body. He says this is to be done in remembrance of what I've done for you. If you believe that the elements taken in communion are the literal body and blood of Jesus, then I suppose we are in disagreement on this one my brother.
Hello Fuji. Yes, reading through John 6:26-60, one could easily assume that Jesus spoke about His actual Flesh & Blood that had to be consumed; and the disciples themselves were astonished & probably confused by such words ( John 6:60). I understand that the RCC believe & teach that the physical emblems of bread & wine mystically convert to Christ's actual Body & Blood ("Christ's Presence" as they call it) when consecrated to God (transubstantiation). And of course, that would mean that Christ would have to be sacrificed every time the eucharist takes place. The belief is that for present cleansing of all sin, Christ's Body must be remembered & partaken of. And how can it be partaken of, except by death (even in the mystical sense), though as I understand it, the RC doesn't believe that those converted elements represent His death again.
We read clearly in Hebrews 10:1-12 what the writer was bringing out when comparing the sacrifices conducted by the Jewish priests to that of our great High Priest. And particularly, verse 3, "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year", when we also read verses 10 to 12, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once (for all). And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God".
So we see here that Christ's Sacrifice was, and could only be made once, & this one Sacrifice alone was absolutely sufficient to deal with all of mankind's sins. And of course, the cleansing we speak of, is what God does by forgiving us, on the basis of His acceptance of His Son's Perfect & Complete Work at Calvary. Onto Page 2.
If this was not a metaphor but an actual change of substance, then not only would that be in conflict with the Scriptures, but would require much faith & imagination in taste & texture, to be convincing; it would be a mental affirmation to the one partaking, whereas faith demands an actual outcome, such as our faith in Christ for salvation: if we don't see the change in us by the Holy Spirit's Presence, in our thoughts, our ways, our direction in life, then how do we justify that it is 'Christ in us, our hope'; it would be just a vain hope - a hope that we will make it.
When Jesus compared His coming from Heaven & offering of Himself, to that of Israel's forefathers who ate the manna which only afforded temporary life until death, Jesus said that His offering through partaking in His Body & Blood gives eternal life. This must mean that those who partake in the Lord's Supper, do so because of their indissoluble connection to their Savior, vividly being reminded, through the (emblems), of the Life sacrificed for them & the great cost to secure their salvation. The forefathers of Israel ate that manna & died, but the Living Bread from Heaven came to give life, not given to sustain the body, but to strengthen & gladden the soul. There can be no merit in eating a mystically re-constituted bread & wine (which can't happen), except to possibly make one feel closer to Christ. The merit is found in obedience to the Lord, a life lived in holiness, & taking every occasion (particularly in corporate worship) to remember why we are different & special to God. GBU.
The Lutherans believe in consubstantiation-that Jesus is present in the bread and wine upon consecration with the words of institution. They say that Jesus is "in, with, and under", the bread and wine but do not teach that Christ is sacrificed each time communion is done in a service. They teach that Jesus is truly present in the elements, but also teach that the how of it is truly a mystery and we believe it by faith that we do receive Him at communion for strengthening our faith, healing our body, and remitting our sins that we confess during the service.
I believe the Anglican church also teach that by faith a believer does partake of the body and blood of Christ in a real but spiritual sense: The simplest phrase used to express this view is the phrase "real presence." This is an affirmation that what is happening during communion is real, and objective, and God assures it. It affirms also that God is present, and that we are to believe and trust that he is. Anglicans teach that sacraments are "effectual signs of grace and that "real presence" is Christ's spiritual presence that is experienced in the hearts of believers when the grace of the sacrament is received by faith. Since his bodily Ascension, Jesus remains spiritually present everywhere but he remains corporeally in heaven until He returns again.
cont.
Thank you for the post. My answer to your question is yes. I do believe Jesus was speaking figuratively at the last supper. Did Jesus give His literal blood and flesh to them to eat and drink? I have to say no. As far as the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood of Jesus "by faith," as you mentioned, one would have to be fully persuaded (faith) that these elements are indeed His literal body and blood. I do come to that conclusion.
You're referring to 1 Corinthians Chapter 11, specifically Verse 29 which reads, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
It doesn't say anything about them having a sin. It says if they do it unworthily. It was the manner in which they were participating. When they took the bread and drank the cup, they were not discerning that these elements represented the Lord's body. They were eating it like it was a meal.
Jesus set it up so that when we take the bread or drink the cup, He said do this in remembrance of me. When we participate in communion, we are doing it to remember what Christ has done for us, that He was crucified for us, that He gave His body and He gave His blood at the cross, not at the last supper.
In Luke 22:19, Jesus takes the bread, gives thanks, breaks it and gives it to them and says, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."
From a Hebrew perspective, that little phrase "This is my body" is a very typical Hebrew metaphorical usage of using your body. He's not saying that the bread became His body. He says this is to be done in remembrance of what I've done for you. If you believe that the elements taken in communion are the literal body and blood of Jesus, then I suppose we are in disagreement on this one my brother.
Blessings to you in Christ!
Hello Fuji. Yes, reading through John 6:26-60, one could easily assume that Jesus spoke about His actual Flesh & Blood that had to be consumed; and the disciples themselves were astonished & probably confused by such words ( John 6:60). I understand that the RCC believe & teach that the physical emblems of bread & wine mystically convert to Christ's actual Body & Blood ("Christ's Presence" as they call it) when consecrated to God (transubstantiation). And of course, that would mean that Christ would have to be sacrificed every time the eucharist takes place. The belief is that for present cleansing of all sin, Christ's Body must be remembered & partaken of. And how can it be partaken of, except by death (even in the mystical sense), though as I understand it, the RC doesn't believe that those converted elements represent His death again.
We read clearly in Hebrews 10:1-12 what the writer was bringing out when comparing the sacrifices conducted by the Jewish priests to that of our great High Priest. And particularly, verse 3, "But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year", when we also read verses 10 to 12, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once (for all). And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God".
So we see here that Christ's Sacrifice was, and could only be made once, & this one Sacrifice alone was absolutely sufficient to deal with all of mankind's sins. And of course, the cleansing we speak of, is what God does by forgiving us, on the basis of His acceptance of His Son's Perfect & Complete Work at Calvary. Onto Page 2.
If this was not a metaphor but an actual change of substance, then not only would that be in conflict with the Scriptures, but would require much faith & imagination in taste & texture, to be convincing; it would be a mental affirmation to the one partaking, whereas faith demands an actual outcome, such as our faith in Christ for salvation: if we don't see the change in us by the Holy Spirit's Presence, in our thoughts, our ways, our direction in life, then how do we justify that it is 'Christ in us, our hope'; it would be just a vain hope - a hope that we will make it.
When Jesus compared His coming from Heaven & offering of Himself, to that of Israel's forefathers who ate the manna which only afforded temporary life until death, Jesus said that His offering through partaking in His Body & Blood gives eternal life. This must mean that those who partake in the Lord's Supper, do so because of their indissoluble connection to their Savior, vividly being reminded, through the (emblems), of the Life sacrificed for them & the great cost to secure their salvation. The forefathers of Israel ate that manna & died, but the Living Bread from Heaven came to give life, not given to sustain the body, but to strengthen & gladden the soul. There can be no merit in eating a mystically re-constituted bread & wine (which can't happen), except to possibly make one feel closer to Christ. The merit is found in obedience to the Lord, a life lived in holiness, & taking every occasion (particularly in corporate worship) to remember why we are different & special to God. GBU.